Getting More torque??

[cordobabrendy]

whats the best form of upping my torque, i know chipping removes flatspots and raises bhp (also torque i know, but not as much) but apart from cams , which are way too expensive..:(:confused:
does anyone have dynos of before and after chipping a 16v??
torque and bhp if posible...........

[Sim]

Supercharging your engine would be the best way (regarding to torque), but it is a rather expensive and radical modification which i don't really recommend.

I think the very best setup for a 2.0 16V would be a 4-2-1 exhaust manifold (like the supersprint one f.eg), stainless steel mid & back box, maybe cat replacement (doesnt really worth it though), chip, induction kit and a more rigid inlet hose. That should bring you above 180 BHP which is not bad "value for your money". Cams doesn't really worth it without a modded cylinder head and sports exhaust manifold. You spend a fortune on them (coz you need 2) and they cannot deliver the required power gain without other mods at all! Cams have been proven as a "no go" for 2.0 16Vs, except for race modded engines.

A well designed 4-2-1 exhaust manifold is a very nice mod however, which i can recommend. Supersprint is not available in RHD, but you may find a nice exhaust spec, who can custom manufacture you one. Be sure to ask for long pipes, they like to make you satisfy with shorter (not really effective) solutions - i know it ;). Supersprint claims around 20 extra BHP just by its exhaust system (incl. manifold) alone. Check www.supersprint.com

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by Sim
Cams have been proven as a "no go" for 2.0 16Vs, except for race modded engines.
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I don't know where you get your information, but you are wrong on 2ltr 16v's as a no go for cams.
The 16v motor, in 1.8 or 2.0 form takes well to cams and gas flowed head, (needs both) and you do not need to talk Race Spec either.

Mine and several customer cars have exactly this and more, producing more than 200bhp and are very road drivable, idle as normal, pass emissions test with ease etc...

Bill

[jason phillips]

here here, i am looking at cams and the 264 duration golf ones will take my ibiza 1.8 16v upto about 147 bhp (130 standard ) plus a polished an ported head should easily see it over 150 bhp with a good increase in torque .oh yeh the de cat also works well on th 1.8 16v too giving a couple of bhp ,but taking out its' tendancy to hesitate better throttle response and a bit more go at the top .i'm currently getting 8.3 to 60 with just a striaght thru exhaust and induction kit/heat shield hte standard figure is 8.9 .so i'm doing something right i think. oh yeh i've read somewhere ,that to increase bhp you increase capacity (cc) and to increase torque you lengthen the stroke dose that mean using a longer block?????:cheers:

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by jason phillips
here here, i am looking at cams and the 264 duration golf ones will take my ibiza 1.8 16v upto about 147 bhp (130 standard ) plus a polished an ported head should easily see it over 150 bhp with a good increase in torque .oh yeh the de cat also works well on th 1.8 16v too giving a couple of bhp ,but taking out its' tendancy to hesitate better throttle response and a bit more go at the top .i'm currently getting 8.3 to 60 with just a striaght thru exhaust and induction kit/heat shield hte standard figure is 8.9 .so i'm doing something right i think. oh yeh i've read somewhere ,that to increase bhp you increase capacity (cc) and to increase torque you lengthen the stroke dose that mean using a longer block?????:cheers:

Longer stroke engines generally make more torque and do not rev as well as the "squarer" 1.8.
Square bore to stroke ratio.
KR(1.8) vs 9A(2.0) vs ABF(2.0 tall block) 16v motors.
Bill

tempt you with some Badger5 DTH throttle bodies?
:)

[cordobabrendy]

ok, i already have a stainless steel one off induction pipe joined to my pipercross, i have found a local shop that sells supersprint manifolds/systems, he reckons about 350 for the 421 and says that i will really notice the difference in pull?????? Your thoughts?
dont think that the decat pipe will make any difference at all though...:cheers:

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by cordobabrendy
ok, i already have a stainless steel one off induction pipe joined to my pipercross, i have found a local shop that sells supersprint manifolds/systems, he reckons about 350 for the 421 and says that i will really notice the difference in pull?????? Your thoughts?
dont think that the decat pipe will make any difference at all though...:cheers:
4-2-1 supposed to give more low to mid punch.
i run 4-1 magnex on mine. Seems fine, but my engine spec is pretty high.
Bill

[cordobabrendy]

whats better, 4-1 or 4-2-1??? thought the quicker the exhaust valves could get rid of gasse the better up to a certain point anyway??

[Sim]

Bill,

I have heard and read ridiculous stories about people camming their 16 valvers. Their performance estimations were promising, but in most of the cases a dyno run revealed their way too optimistic claims!!!

I still persist that without gas flowing & porting polishing the head and without a decent exhaust system (including manifold), cams just does not pay off for the 16v!!! A pair of Schrick cams cost ca. 700 GBP and can deliver max 10-12BHP extra for a std car (over chip), making the car even peakier than it already was!
If you go for that extra 10-12BHP for 700GBP+installation, then i must say you have too much money and cannot spend on better things.

If somebody made up his mind, and decided to do serious modifications on the engine (like porting polishing gas flowing head, replacing exhaust manifold+system, ECU remap etc), then it is of course clear to get longer duration & higher lift cams (preferably 276deg, not like a mild cam for the same money because the breathing of the engine has been greatly improved which is neccessary in taking advantage of the uprated cams. Above modifications should take the car up to 220BHP even, which wouldn't be achievable without the cams for sure. Though, if you count all the expenses these modifications require, you would notice that you spent a fortune on the car and it would have been better to order a new 20VT instead. Your tuned car would be uncivilized, unreliable, short lifed, and the money you spent on it couldn't be validated when selling the car, so it is almost like throwing money out of the window... All of these things have sense only in one case; if the car is going to be race prepped or used by fun car only - not for everyday life.

I would recommend the full exhaust tuning instead of the cams!

1. The 4-2-1 manifold gives better low-end, mid torque - not like cams!
2. It is not that expensive - like cams
3. Doesn't **** up tickover - like cams
4. Delivers the same performace gain - like mild cams.

Judge this, and recommend cams if you still think they do worth it...

Thats my 2 penneth

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by Sim
Bill,

I have heard and read ridiculous stories about people camming their 16 valvers. Their performance estimations were promising, but in most of the cases a dyno run revealed their way too optimistic claims!!!

I still persist that without gas flowing & porting polishing the head and without a decent exhaust system (including manifold), cams just does not pay off for the 16v!!! A pair of Schrick cams cost ca. 700 GBP and can deliver max 10-12BHP extra for a std car (over chip), making the car even peakier than it already was!
If you go for that extra 10-12BHP for 700GBP+installation, then i must say you have too much money and cannot spend on better things.

If somebody made up his mind, and decided to do serious modifications on the engine (like porting polishing gas flowing head, replacing exhaust manifold+system, ECU remap etc), then it is of course clear to get longer duration & higher lift cams (preferably 276deg, not like a mild cam for the same money because the breathing of the engine has been greatly improved which is neccessary in taking advantage of the uprated cams. Above modifications should take the car up to 220BHP even, which wouldn't be achievable without the cams for sure. Though, if you count all the expenses these modifications require, you would notice that you spent a fortune on the car and it would have been better to order a new 20VT instead. Your tuned car would be uncivilized, unreliable, short lifed, and the money you spent on it couldn't be validated when selling the car, so it is almost like throwing money out of the window... All of these things have sense only in one case; if the car is going to be race prepped or used by fun car only - not for everyday life.

I would recommend the full exhaust tuning instead of the cams!

1. The 4-2-1 manifold gives better low-end, mid torque - not like cams!
2. It is not that expensive - like cams
3. Doesn't **** up tickover - like cams
4. Delivers the same performace gain - like mild cams.

Judge this, and recommend cams if you still think they do worth it...

Thats my 2 penneth

Are you talking from experience or hearsay?
From my experience (personal - I have actually done this) the cams would not be advised in a std head. Both are needed to allow the cams to work properly. You say 276's - why?
staggered cams work very well in the 16v motor, 260inlet and 276 exhaust. The exhaust aspect of the head is the worst part of the VW design.
For someone evolving an engine over time the add ons like head,cams, exhaust, induction system, ecu or rechip etc are natural progressions. The 20VT is a lot more expensive to buy as it is still very new. The arguement is'nt over price of the mods, but that the mods actually work when fitted in a logical sequence.
We agree that fitting cams into a stock head would yield little gain. Fit them in a gas flowed head and things will work a lot better. - Fact!
You say rough idle - I don't have rough idle (800rpm) on my split duration 260/270 cams. It even ran fine when mapped on a pair of wild 300 cams which I experimented with a year or so ago, and still passed emissions. (the joys a mapping your own ECU).
You say peakier, and with 276 cams you're right..... thats why a 260 inlet softer cam gives a benefit in low down torque, whilst the 276 exhaust cam allows the high speed rpm/gas flow to exit, thereby gaining on both counts.
My 2ltr 16v running 260/270 cams produces 174bhp @ wheels with 152lb/ft torque and >130lb/ft from 2700rpm - Peaky eh?
Put in the 300 cams and yep! Peaky as hell, nothing until 5500rpm and then bang with the power up to 7700rpm... Very narrow power band, with next to know torque below 5500rpm. The choice of cam is the critical part. People may think wilder is better but it is'nt. Its an easy mystake.

There are many claims around about bolt on horsepower (cams +15, head +15, filter+5 etc etc but it does'nt add up like that) The parts have to be ideally matched to what is requried from the customer and his use. You can build an all out screamer of an engine, but if he would never use it, he would likely be dissapointed in day to day use.
As for reliability of a modded 16v....... It is no more unreliable that a 20VT motor. Build either badly and they will fail.

I think the 20VT is a superb engine, and in gas flow terms the 20v head kicks the 16v into touch. The stock 20v head has been reported to give 30% more flow than a gas flowed 16v. although the inlet 3 valves look to be the advantage, the exhaust port deisgn is the major benefit of the 20v. Much nicer, smoother, straighter ports.

I like both engines in their different ways... I compete in sprints though and have built a torquey motor to do that job for me. I run in a up to 2ltr class, so a 1.8T is'nt in the same competetive class being levied with a 1.4xswept capacity handicap - ie 2.52ltr engine in these terms.

How much have you done yourself on these mods?
It is'nt about what is spent and not having "better things" to spend it on, that is people choice..... Probably not yours by the sound of it, but Each to Their Own eh? Not right or wrong.

Its all waste in some peoples eyes, but that is'nt the point to car enthusiasts is it.... its the enjoyment of developing a better car than was first built for some. Some like the looks and bodykits (not me personally) and thats fine for them, and some like to make things go faster, and build more powerful engines etc... None of this is wrong, but may not be YOUR choice.

Each to their own, but if you are'nt talking from personal experience of engine tuning I would sit back and learn from others who have.

Peace.
:)
Bill

[Gerry 16v]

I like the sound of adding an uprated manifold, who exactly sells these beasties for the 97 Cupra 16V engine (2.0 16V) and how much are they likely to cost?

Thanks
Gerry

[VR6_Ibiza]

Has to be the option "Other"

This categories numerous ideas to improve Torque. Such as implant a tractor engine into your ibiza :devil:


Could not resist that one !

[Sim]

Bill,

I am "talking" by experience. There's a workshop in our street where my friend works and who actually is an ex-racer guy, running his own business down there. I am not a skilled mechanic but i always drop him a visit checking the beasts he is working on and occasionally help him (16Vs, VR6s and like are common, he just finished an Impreza engine overhaul last week for example).

We (so including me) already put schrick cams into a Leon 20VT even (which was not done by lots of people over here i suppose), so i know what i am talking about. If i recall it right, you have got a heavily modded 2.0 16V in a jetta, so it surely accepts the cams happily, no doubt.

I'm not the only one who warns people about cams for the 16V!!! Camming 8Vs are common, they do respond totally different, but the price of a 16V cam upgrade is twice as much but the gains are still moderated without modifying the head and exhaust more further. That is a fact which we all accept.

I just wanted to let people know, "be careful with cam upgrade for the 16v", do not expect too much without other mods. Brendy already stated that cams are "way too expensive" for him, so i thought i'd share my experiences.

By the way, regaring to idle. I've found my stock 16v a bit rough - no uprated cams at all...

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by Sim
Bill,

I am "talking" by experience. There's a workshop in our street where my friend works and who actually is an ex-racer guy, running his own business down there. I am not a skilled mechanic but i always drop him a visit checking the beasts he is working on and occasionally help him (16Vs, VR6s and like are common, he just finished an Impreza engine overhaul last week for example).

We (so including me) already put schrick cams into a Leon 20VT even (which was not done by lots of people over here i suppose), so i know what i am talking about. If i recall it right, you have got a heavily modded 2.0 16V in a jetta, so it surely accepts the cams happily, no doubt.

I'm not the only one who warns people about cams for the 16V!!! Camming 8Vs are common, they do respond totally different, but the price of a 16V cam upgrade is twice as much but the gains are still moderated without modifying the head and exhaust more further. That is a fact which we all accept.

I just wanted to let people know, "be careful with cam upgrade for the 16v", do not expect too much without other mods. Brendy already stated that cams are "way too expensive" for him, so i thought i'd share my experiences.

By the way, regaring to idle. I've found my stock 16v a bit rough - no uprated cams at all...

We all agree and advise no gas flowed head no cams... Not fitting cams into a std head.
Gas flowed head does work well on the torque as a first step.
fuel and ignition will always need to be altered to suit any engine mods to optimise the settings. One for all chips on modified engines are unlikely to be optimised. Too many variables.
It all costs money, and tuning a n/a motor to the 200bhp is always going to cost. What you do get though is a superb package though.... step by step, people can get their as funds permit. I did'nt build my own motor in one hit.. It was spread over a couple of years adding this and that.
1. Exhaust manifold and system & airfilter
2. Chip (maybe) if chippable
3. gas flowed cylinder head
4. cams (not too wild)
5. Reprogramme ECU or get programmable ECU
6. Throttle bodies for the ultimate induction system :)

Bill

[cordobabrendy]

wonder how many posts, votes and views this thread would have got if i had put it in our cordoba section where it was meant to go!! oops..
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Sim]

Yes, Bill. We reached a point where we agree. We also enumerated almost all pros and cons regarding to camming 16 valvers, so each individual can decide now (probably).

I also was walking in the same shoes this summer. Got a very nice 16 valver, got loads of money (well, not that much actually). Wanted to perform a thorough tuning (head, manifold, exhaust, cams, chip, suspension, rims, ice... ), but as i did the budget, it became obvious that if i wait and put all my money together, i will be able to buy a new cupra -- which i finally did. Sadly the car did not arrive yet, as it seems i'm the only dupe here who has to wait four months for a new beezer cupra.

The engine upgrade (tuning) of the 16 valvers are much much more expensive than the tuning of 20VTs, so owners gotta be very careful -- it is not just a single ECU remapping, but serious and expensive modifications on the engine.

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by Sim
Yes, Bill. We reached a point where we agree. We also enumerated almost all pros and cons regarding to camming 16 valvers, so each individual can decide now (probably).

I also was walking in the same shoes this summer. Got a very nice 16 valver, got loads of money (well, not that much actually). Wanted to perform a thorough tuning (head, manifold, exhaust, cams, chip, suspension, rims, ice... ), but as i did the budget, it became obvious that if i wait and put all my money together, i will be able to buy a new cupra -- which i finally did. Sadly the car did not arrive yet, as it seems i'm the only dupe here who has to wait four months for a new beezer cupra.

The engine upgrade (tuning) of the 16 valvers are much much more expensive than the tuning of 20VTs, so owners gotta be very careful -- it is not just a single ECU remapping, but serious and expensive modifications on the engine.

As with any n/a motor, chip tuning and the usual zorst/air filter etc only get you so far. Chipping modern turbo motors is much better value per bhp gained.
I'm not saying don't do it, as there are older 16v's out there which are really great value cars 2nd hand, and if someone wanted to develop it over time, there are steps and a sequence to get them the best grin per $$ spent.
We agree then :)
4 months wait for your car???? Bloody hell.
regards
Bill
:0