View Full Version : Jabbasports IHI -Monstor Ibiza RR plot
ibizacupra
02-11-2002, 13:58
Here it is...
Not able to make yesterdays track day sadly, but I drove it for about an hour yesterday evening as is...
What can I say! :D WOW! and I was driving it with low power, low boost, old spec turbo, non chargecooled, stock intercooled spec. - F*king awesome. :) Maybe 290-300bhp last night Mike said, but "by eck" it shifts. :) Really shifts.
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/IHIvs210-sm.jpg
Dyno plot above is a direct comparison of when the Jabba's IHI Ibiza was running well on the Thursday night, just before the gremlins got involved (not IHI related at all by the way).
The small hillock is my "210" Ibiza, and the large mountain of a plot behind is the IHI'd Jabbasport Ibiza plot.
I give you a small example of the fun to be had with this... I could'nt stop laughing.. it was so much fun and outrageous.. :D
Wet and 'orrible' evening was'nt it last night. On a dual carriage way somewhere around Peterborough (it was dark & I had no idea :p). 3rd gear @ 80mph and overtake a car.... spin.. spin spin...all the way to 100mph (which did'nt take long!) engage 4th gear and WARP onward faster again (gripped in 4th).. Yikes. I kept running out of road.. REALLY QUICKLY - LOL :)
The drive was much smoother and progressive than my current setup, and is much nicer to drive. The figures read like "oh my God - thats silly" but it rolls the power in so smoothly, that its all very controllable. - I was enjoying myself when I just kept it nailed in 3rd at 80mph btw. You don't have to drive like this.
IF thats the low spec 290bhp level... Its going to be really fun with the full power available.
Superb. Can't wait. :D
regards
Bill
HAVE IT!!!!!
sounds mental, cool, silly, fun, exciting you name the expletives.
when bill??? and can i have a passenger ride? pwwweeeeaaassseeeee
:D :D :D
PS glad you got home ok, that tyre was err, past its best
ibizacupra
02-11-2002, 14:56
Originally posted by Saul
HAVE IT!!!!!
sounds mental, cool, silly, fun, exciting you name the expletives.
when bill??? and can i have a passenger ride? pwwweeeeaaassseeeee
:D :D :D
PS glad you got home ok, that tyre was err, past its best
Cheers mate.
Got home safe and sound but slowly...
Went via Jabba's and still did'nt get home until nearly 1am. :p
New tyres on now.. sorted :D
Dented rim tho... :( I got bitten too by the pesky giant size cats eyes.. (huge moggies around Alconbury :p)
regards
Bill
LMAO - that plot is insane.
'hillock' - apt
Kev Hall
02-11-2002, 17:22
Bring it on, that looks and sounds incredible. Can't wait to see it!
Can't wait to experience it myself, a call to Jabba and a visit in order me thinks.
ibizacupra
02-11-2002, 17:53
Latest update..
Its Back running again on full power with its proper ecu
Motor now running to full dyno spec, very smooth and a very nice added benefit of a TC system which is actually very nice and progressive! Cool. :) Stock Ibiza one is kak... almost turns the motor off.
I test drive it one day too early! DOH DOH DOH! :D
Big Smile :D :)
Bill
;)
How many of your english pounds for such a beastie? Want one for my Octavia! :D
That took me 10mins to work out what the f*** was going on in the charts.....
:hammer:
And now that I''ve worked it out.......feggin fex sake that is a fairly massive difference :eek:
For those who haven't worked it out yet:-
3 traces that end at approx 7700rpm are for the Jabba IHI conversion. Torque is the trace that peaks at 5.5K, with power (at wheels and engine) being the other two.
3 other traces that end at approx 6500rpm are RSD 210 car .....torque, power & power @ wheels again.
ibizacupra
03-11-2002, 18:19
Originally posted by vibrio
bit more lag then :D
Nope!
The turbo fitted at the moment is an older non roller bearing one, which spools slightly slower. The pukka ones have now arrived, and combined with the now fully working new ECU it eclipses previous power plots everywhere.
No lag as such when driving. Much smoother than the *cough* "210" I have currently. Spools in nice and progressively.
Lovely Jubbly :p
Its a realy sweet drive. :)
Bill
ibizacupra
03-11-2002, 18:22
Originally posted by TaviaRS
How many of your english pounds for such a beastie? Want one for my Octavia! :D
Prices being honed right now.
Should be released publically shortly.
Along the lines of a 280bhp, 320bhp and 340bhp+ options with price breaks accordingly.
regards
Bill
How are they doing the different power options? Are they physically different or just the mapping?
I might have to arrange a trip up there.... I need one!!! :D
Ben
ibizacupra
04-11-2002, 22:08
Originally posted by BenS1
How are they doing the different power options? Are they physically different or just the mapping?
I might have to arrange a trip up there.... I need one!!! :D
Ben
Mike is definately honing the prices for the kits. We discussed some points this evening so it won't be long.
As far as I know, (and this might not be 100% accurate so don't quote me), the 1st level kit would include major parts like new manifold, IHI turbo, downpipe, intake pipe, but would retain the cars ECU, and MAF (might need to be recalibrated), and the stock injectors could possibly be used combined with a 4bar FPR. - Power ~280bhp from this combo.
Best bet is to give Mike a call to discuss exactly what you want from it.
regards
Bill
Interesting... yes, I'll give him a call.
Cheers
Ben
Hmmm. Called them and spoke to a friendly lady but the problem is that she wasn't really aware of the conversion at all... she had to go and ask if they were doing an IHI conversion for the Ibiza.
Anyway, there are no prices or any other details yet and they will not be released until NEXT YEAR!!!! :(
Also, I asked about the K04 conversion but they said that they wont be bothering with that anymore, its a chip or the IHI. I'd love the IHI but I get the feeling it'll cost many thousands.
Ben
ibizacupra
06-11-2002, 08:25
Originally posted by BenS1
Hmmm. Called them and spoke to a friendly lady but the problem is that she wasn't really aware of the conversion at all... she had to go and ask if they were doing an IHI conversion for the Ibiza.
Anyway, there are no prices or any other details yet and they will not be released until NEXT YEAR!!!! :(
Also, I asked about the K04 conversion but they said that they wont be bothering with that anymore, its a chip or the IHI. I'd love the IHI but I get the feeling it'll cost many thousands.
Ben
The general release for their IHI kits will be from about Jan 2003, which is only 7 weeks away after all.
Previously, as a guide, the base kit was approx from £1700 for an IHI 280bhp upgrade. This should be a guide price only.
The reasoning for not bothering with a K04, is it itself is a lot of money, and its gains when compared to an IHI really don't seem appropriate. The K04 still has to breathe through the small stock manifold and it does'nt ultimately release the power. On the Ibiza, a K04 yielded 240bhp and 250-260lb/ft of torque I think on Jabbas chargecooled Beezer, when an IHI will do 280bhp easily (keeping it down is the challenge)
K03/K04 still produce a stack of heat, where the IHI conversion does'nt, being far less restrictive and far better flowing combination.
The delay is associated with Jabba's launch of their Turbo kits/manifolds for all transverse engined models, so its not beezer specific.
It will be worth the wait believe me. Pop up and speak with Mike and have a go in their beezer. You will be amazed at the difference between your "210" and this.......... Awesome. (fearsome)
regards
Bill
I have to say Bill that I like the idea of having a base spec of £1700 and then having the option to upgrade as you go along , do you know if any items would have to be replaced from the 280 spec as you upgrade from there on or will it just be adding to what has been done allready ?
For instance will the 280 spec include the charge cooler ? or will including that enable higher power ?
Also will the 280 spec include shrick cams or will that be another upgrade ?
I am sorry if I am asking yourself questions which I should be contacting mike about but he's always just so damm busy lol and you seem to be the man most in the know other wise lol
I seem to remember Mike explaining that there was 3 different IHI models that you could choose , the difference being that each model has a different point in which boost comes on song and holds for ie the one which holds the boost longer up the rev range is also the one which takes the longest to spool up - ie ultimatly more BHP however a big more laggy ( I think when I last spoke to him he said that the one which spins up the quickest would be the best choice for the Ibiza) ...... so do you know if there are comiting to one type of IHI or will there still be a choice.
Long story short If I started off with the 280 spec and wanted to upgrade until I hut 400 BHP would I eventully have to change the Turbo again ??
Bill, I hope that was not a typo.... £1700!!! I was expecting it to be maybe £3500 for the base upto say around £5000 for the top spec!
My estimates were based on talking to Mike in March and again around June... the original target was around £2k and that was reusing the original manifold (And applying heat-resistant stuff to it or something), but later Mike said that testing showed that the original manifold wasn't up to the job and so they had to develop a custom manifold. I got the impression that this was expensive and Mike implied that we were no looking at over £3k... since then there have been loads more additions... including an ECU from the S3, which I doubt is cheap.
If the price really is around £2000 then I'll be having one! :)
Stopping the K04 conversion would make sense at this price.
Bill, when you tested their IHI'd Ibiza, what other mods did they have? Uprated engine mounts? Uprated clutch? Gearbox mods? LSD? Replacement Traction Control? Wide wheels? etc?
If its really that cheap then I'm getting one! :D
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
06-11-2002, 14:52
Guys..
please bare with me as I am 3rd party to Mike @ Jabba and am passing on info which should be used as a guide only.
The £1700 figure was what I heard Mike say to a guy who asked him at combe. That may be parts only but is the base point for major components. Golfs etc can probably use their factory ECU, but Ibiza's can only do so for a max of 280bhp. Its complicated and thats why Mike is not releasing info until the whole package is defined, costed and more importantly proven. Golf stuff has been done for some time now & is proven, Ibiza stuff is new and proving now and over Xmas.
There have been some favourable prices during the evolution of this kit, which are being reflected in the prices, so prices have reduced from first predictions on some key components.
1st level kit for example could have an IHI turbo, exhaust manifold, downpipe, intake pipe, utilising the cars factory parts for the rest. - Golfs and such can accomodate this easier than Ibizas.
The arguement for K04 conversion instead is in favour of the base level IHI conversion as bang for buck will easily be in favour of an IHI. (Ibiza example being ~240bhp-K04 vs 280bhp-IHI)
Please note though that this is my understanding, and that Mike, Brian are firming up on the details right now.
What will be clear though, as I hope I've indicated, is that it will reward significant power gains for very reasonable costs.
Other mods to their Ibiza, last Friday, when I drove it, were Koni shocks, Eibach springs, 17" rims.
No diff, No other TCS (S3 one works much better apparently-sweetly), no Brembos (yet-on their way now though)
Very very smooth and progressive power delivery.
I hope this info helps explain some things as best I know.... but ultimately Jabba will release the real deal info shortly.
regards
Bill
(these statements are independant and are not the word according to Jabba, and are as a consequence subject to change without notice)
turbo northener
06-11-2002, 15:11
Bill, what did you make of the suspension set up - and are telling me that they had that much power with std brakes !!!
As mentioned b4, what else needs strengthening - clutch, gearbox would strut braces would become necessary?
Originally posted by ibizacupra
The argument for K04 conversion instead is in favour of the base level IHI conversion as bang for buck will easily be in favour of an IHI. (Ibiza example being ~240bhp-K04 vs 280bhp-IHI)
One reason for going the K0-4 route would be that you retained the stock appearance under the bonnet - no custom manifold or any outward sign that the car isn't standard.
However, as Bill rightly pointed out, the 'bang per buck' seems to weigh very heavily in favour of the IHI, certainly at the indicated price guides.
Looking at the above plot, it appears to resemble a supercharged VR6 in it's delivery - that's to say it comes in exponentially after about 4K RPM but very smoothly. It certainly seems to lose out to the chipped K0-3 up to that point but I suspect there'd be little on-road difference between the two. I accept that the plot is for an older spec. turbo so would be interested to see the plots for the new spec.
An advantage of this smooth delivery is that it puts less strain on the drivetrain. It's certainly made me reconsider my K0-4 plans, although I have some other questions which I'll ask after the kits & prices are finalised.
ibizacupra
07-11-2002, 08:27
Originally posted by turbo northener
Bill, what did you make of the suspension set up - and are telling me that they had that much power with std brakes !!!
As mentioned b4, what else needs strengthening - clutch, gearbox would strut braces would become necessary?
Their suspension kit is Koni Eibachs at the moment, but is changing to Koni coil overs as they want a better ride than they have. standard brakes are being replaced now (were always going to be) to the Brembo 4-pots. This is a must have IMHO
Clutch is a Golf item I believe, but works very well. G'box is stock in theirs (no diff or anything trick like that)
A strut brace should'nt be req'd, but could'nt hurt.
the power delivery being smooth, just rolls in progressively, so stress and torque applied through the drivetrain is'ntbad at all. I would say its less stress than my current setup, which comes in with a bang at 2500rpm, then fades rapidly from there.
Max torque is 270lb/ft which is'nt massive in a shearing gearbox components kind of way :p but its sustained high into the rev band, hence producing the high bhp figures from high torque/high rpm.
(remember the calc: bhp=(torque in lb/ft x rpm)/5252 )
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
07-11-2002, 08:40
Originally posted by Glenn
One reason for going the K0-4 route would be that you retained the stock appearance under the bonnet - no custom manifold or any outward sign that the car isn't standard.
However, as Bill rightly pointed out, the 'bang per buck' seems to weigh very heavily in favour of the IHI, certainly at the indicated price guides.
Looking at the above plot, it appears to resemble a supercharged VR6 in it's delivery - that's to say it comes in exponentially after about 4K RPM but very smoothly. It certainly seems to lose out to the chipped K0-3 up to that point but I suspect there'd be little on-road difference between the two. I accept that the plot is for an older spec. turbo so would be interested to see the plots for the new spec.
An advantage of this smooth delivery is that it puts less strain on the drivetrain. It's certainly made me reconsider my K0-4 plans, although I have some other questions which I'll ask after the kits & prices are finalised.
Hi Glenn
The installation has no outward signs of a larger turbo or anything. Its all underneath the engine cover. Very neat and not "LOOK AT ME" at all. Stick the plastic engine cover back on and all you would see is the induction kit. Very stealthy, which appeals to me. :D
The K03/04 combo introduce so much heat when wound up, where the IHI does'nt. Its like the IHI setup flows so much better, without bottlenecking anyway, so to me I like this, as less heat is less thermal stress, which can only be a good thing.
Jabbasports IHI manifold mounts the turbo underneath like the stock K03/4's so you really have to look to see the bits.
I am also looking forward to the new higher spec turbo graph, and this one will probably be my own car having this one first. Roller bearing IHI, to latest 2002 spec, which Mike says has tighter clearances in the compressor housing, of a slightly higher AR, which should spool sooner, produce max boost earlier (high 2000's) and hold longer. Sounds like win win to me and I am looking forward to seeing it in action.
The apparent higher torque mine has on the dyno, up to 3K, is what actually makes it a bit nasty to drive. My wifes does'nt like to drive my beezer, as it "runs away with her", by spooling up on overboost at this 2500rpm point. The IHI is much more progressive in its delivery which I find suits me much better. Less of a rush of power, but a real sustained push getting more and more as the rpms climb.
The 280bhp kit would look to be an ideal starter level when compared to K04's.
regards
Bill
I just so need this conversion.... any ideas on how to make an extra 2 grand in 6 weeks?
Bill:
Other mods to their Ibiza, last Friday, when I drove it, were Koni shocks, Eibach springs, 17" rims.
No diff, No other TCS (S3 one works much better apparently-sweetly), no Brembos (yet-on their way now though)
Does switching to the S3 ECU give you the S3 traction control for free or are there more components than that? I'd imagine that the S3 has full ESP, and if so then wouldn't you need extra pumps for the ESP to automatically apply the brakes on a per wheel basis, or does the Ibiza already have them for the EDS/EDL?
To be honest, I'm susperised that there is any difference between the S3 and Ibiza ECUs except the software. As I understand it, the main problem with the Ibiza ECU and this conversion is that the ECU goes into failsafe mode because it detects overboost whereas the S3 ECU has a higher overboost detection threshold. If so then surely you can change the overboost threshold in the Ibiza ECU... OK its probably not as easy as a remap but if its in the firmware then it can be changed.
I've got an old Pug 205 1.9GTi in the garage that I was gonna do up for trackdays (Rollcage, engine conversion etc) but I think its gonna go on my list of things to sell so as I can get this kit! :D
Ben
ibizacupra
07-11-2002, 12:49
Originally posted by BenS1
I just so need this conversion.... any ideas on how to make an extra 2 grand in 6 weeks?
Bill:
Does switching to the S3 ECU give you the S3 traction control for free or are there more components than that? I'd imagine that the S3 has full ESP, and if so then wouldn't you need extra pumps for the ESP to automatically apply the brakes on a per wheel basis, or does the Ibiza already have them for the EDS/EDL?
To be honest, I'm susperised that there is any difference between the S3 and Ibiza ECUs except the software. As I understand it, the main problem with the Ibiza ECU and this conversion is that the ECU goes into failsafe mode because it detects overboost whereas the S3 ECU has a higher overboost detection threshold. If so then surely you can change the overboost threshold in the Ibiza ECU... OK its probably not as easy as a remap but if its in the firmware then it can be changed.
I've got an old Pug 205 1.9GTi in the garage that I was gonna do up for trackdays (Rollcage, engine conversion etc) but I think its gonna go on my list of things to sell so as I can get this kit! :D
Ben
Not ESP Ben... just TCS as it has now. Its application is just much smoother and more refined than the Beezers as is one. (S3 has Haldex 4WD also so its ESP and 4WD normally. An added benefit seems to be much smoother TCS operation. Mikes comment was it was as good as a well setup Racelogic TCS in his opinion. Bonus I say! :D )
Not sure on the differences in ECU's apart from this is what Mike is using as the ECU is better suited to the higher power and mapping he does.
Beezer ECU is an oddball one.
For the base 280bhp, with limited boost the Beezers ecu should be OK Mike hopes.
regards
Bill
I hope the Ibiza ECU can be used, coz a normal replacement ECU costs around £750 (Pug 306) and I bet the S3 one costs more!
As for traction control... the VAG cars control traction via opening the wastegate when wheel spin is detected (Correct me if I'm wrong)... as I understand the IHI has an internal wastegate which still produces 0.8bar and 280bhp when FULLY OPEN!!! So... if the ECU detects wheelspin then the best its can do is reduce power to 280bhp, which isn't likely to be enough to stop you wheelspinning!!!
Am I talking rubbish or does this make sense.
Also, if the IHI produces 0.8bar and 280bhp when the wastegate is fully open (At around 6750rpm I presume) then does this mean that the 280bhp version of the kit will have the wastegate hardwired into the open position?
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
07-11-2002, 19:06
Originally posted by BenS1
I hope the Ibiza ECU can be used, coz a normal replacement ECU costs around £750 (Pug 306) and I bet the S3 one costs more!
As for traction control... the VAG cars control traction via opening the wastegate when wheel spin is detected (Correct me if I'm wrong)... as I understand the IHI has an internal wastegate which still produces 0.8bar and 280bhp when FULLY OPEN!!! So... if the ECU detects wheelspin then the best its can do is reduce power to 280bhp, which isn't likely to be enough to stop you wheelspinning!!!
Am I talking rubbish or does this make sense.
Also, if the IHI produces 0.8bar and 280bhp when the wastegate is fully open (At around 6750rpm I presume) then does this mean that the 280bhp version of the kit will have the wastegate hardwired into the open position?
Cheers
Ben
"Am I talking rubbish or does this make sense."
Erm... ;)
The S3 ECU does more than just open the DV or wastegate Ben. It also modulates the ignition and injectors (soft cut type limiter of sorts)
Your best bet is to get up to Jabba, speak to Mike and drive the car. All will be revealed mate. :D
regards
Bill
The S3 ECU does more than just open the DV or wastegate Ben. It also modulates the ignition and injectors (soft cut type limiter of sorts)
Oh ok, so like the Racelogic one does then.... I know exactly how that works. I assumed that all VAG 1.8Ts used the same traction control system (And gave it a different name for each car, TCS, ASR etc), ie. using the wastegate as on the Ibiza.
If the S3 controls traction on a per spark/injection basis then it should be able to keep the wheels at the exact point of the limit of traction and none of this Wheelspin-overreact cycle that the Ibiza has...
I've been thinking about the Racelogic unit for a while and really want one, but the problem is that when you cut inject/sparks when you are at the point of spinning the lambda probe will get some funny readings and start to change the F/A mix to compensate. This is fine for a instant but for periods of sustained traction control (eg. on ice) the mix can get really bad. The S3 ECU obviously knows all about this and so wont be stupid enough to change the mix during a traction control moment. Cool.
Sorry, just talking more rubbish! ;)
Ben
CustardCupra
11-11-2002, 18:54
Hi Bill , Presuming i went for the 280 BHP lower spec setup of Jabbas IHI , would the custom Manifold bolt straight onto my newly acquired Milltek sports cat with downpipe or have i burnt my bridges and left myself with the original plan of KKK04 and larger intercooler/chargecooler ????????????????????????????
Jools
ibizacupra
12-11-2002, 08:58
Originally posted by jools
Hi Bill , Presuming i went for the 280 BHP lower spec setup of Jabbas IHI , would the custom Manifold bolt straight onto my newly acquired Milltek sports cat with downpipe or have i burnt my bridges and left myself with the original plan of KKK04 and larger intercooler/chargecooler ????????????????????????????
Jools
Erm.... :(
IHI downpipe is very different I'm afraid.
your exhaust will be fine but the downpipe and Miltek sports cat assembly will not be.
I am sure its pretty saleable tho...
IHI vs K04 = IHI... :D
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
12-11-2002, 21:14
Originally posted by BenS1
Oh ok, so like the Racelogic one does then.... I know exactly how that works. I assumed that all VAG 1.8Ts used the same traction control system (And gave it a different name for each car, TCS, ASR etc), ie. using the wastegate as on the Ibiza.
If the S3 controls traction on a per spark/injection basis then it should be able to keep the wheels at the exact point of the limit of traction and none of this Wheelspin-overreact cycle that the Ibiza has...
I've been thinking about the Racelogic unit for a while and really want one, but the problem is that when you cut inject/sparks when you are at the point of spinning the lambda probe will get some funny readings and start to change the F/A mix to compensate. This is fine for a instant but for periods of sustained traction control (eg. on ice) the mix can get really bad. The S3 ECU obviously knows all about this and so wont be stupid enough to change the mix during a traction control moment. Cool.
Sorry, just talking more rubbish! ;)
Ben
Ben
Jabbasport use a Mk IV Golf clutch on their Ibiza and that seems fine. Not mucho ££ either.
Mine's a Helix VR6 setup, which requires a change of flywheel and more ££.
Cat is an option on the kit I believe. Metal Cat.. suitable for the power etc.
regards
Bill
What if you don't choose the metal cat option? Do they just use the standard cat? How much would this affect power, and will it last more than 2 weeks?
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
13-11-2002, 08:41
Originally posted by BenS1
What if you don't choose the metal cat option? Do they just use the standard cat? How much would this affect power, and will it last more than 2 weeks?
Cheers
Ben
Ben.
The std cat is integral with the downpipe so is of no use. I also doubt it would cope with the increased power or gasflow either.
No cat is an option until MOT time.(maybe)
<edit> Mike would/could modify the downpipe possibly to retain the stock cat to aid the budget and thinks it could live with the 280bhp kit <edit>
regards
Bill
Apologies if I have missed an earlier point ~
- Is this with std 5-speed box?
- Are mkIV golf conversions with std 5-speed box?
ibizacupra
13-11-2002, 12:19
Originally posted by mik
Apologies if I have missed an earlier point ~
- Is this with std 5-speed box?
- Are mkIV golf conversions with std 5-speed box?
:confused: I am not sure I quite follow you.
5spd box on my Beezer, Jabba's Beezer, but their Golf has a 6spd Quaife I believe.
Not mandatory for the IHI turbo conversion though. Is that what you meant?
regards
Bill
Ben.
The std cat is integral with the downpipe so is of no use. I also doubt it would cope with the increased power or gasflow either.
No cat is an option until MOT time.(maybe)
regards
Bill
So the basic 280bhp kit without the additional CAT option is technically ilegal then!?!?!? Naughty naughty.
Still gonna get one though.... just gotta keep saving!
Ben
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Not mandatory for the IHI turbo conversion though. Is that what you meant?
Precisely :)
I thought the 5-speed box had a far lower torque rating than the 6-speed from the Leon / TT etc.
ibizacupra
13-11-2002, 16:30
Originally posted by BenS1
So the basic 280bhp kit without the additional CAT option is technically ilegal then!?!?!? Naughty naughty.
Still gonna get one though.... just gotta keep saving!
Ben
Not quite what I said or meant Ben :p ;)
Mike will define the 280 kit and it will need a new downpipe or modification at least to retain the stock cat if requested.
Customer choice me thinks and at their risk if they decide to run non-cat.
If I was supplying I would be selling it as "suitable for offroad applications only" a la USA non type approved mods. People still fit em, but its their choice to do so and the vendor cannot be held responsible for any illegalities. :p You know what I mean :)
:D
Bill
ibizacupra
13-11-2002, 16:48
Originally posted by mik
Precisely :)
I thought the 5-speed box had a far lower torque rating than the 6-speed from the Leon / TT etc.
I am not sure on how much lower it is to defien "far lower"
The IHI is not a huge torque monstor, being somewhere around 270lb/ft peak. It does sustain this however at high rpms hence giving the high bhp.
regards
Bill
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I am not sure on how much lower it is to defien "far lower"
The IHI is not a huge torque monstor, being somewhere around 270lb/ft peak.
'ello Bill,
The numbers I've seen are :-
210 lbs.ft for 5-speed box
300 lbs.ft for 6-speed box
These were quoted during a discussion on TDI engines, and the fact that 5-speed Alhambra TDI was pegged back to 210bs.ft whilst other models with same engine and 6-speed box got the full 228lbs.ft. Same peak power quoted as torque has obviously dropped by then.......
I was under the impression that the petrol and diesel boxes were the same barring final drive.....could be wrong though (?) :confused:
There are obviously big safety margins designed in around the above figures - not suggesting this conversion will be a box breaker - just interested :)
ibizacupra
14-11-2002, 08:04
Originally posted by mik
'ello Bill,
The numbers I've seen are :-
210 lbs.ft for 5-speed box
300 lbs.ft for 6-speed box
These were quoted during a discussion on TDI engines, and the fact that 5-speed Alhambra TDI was pegged back to 210bs.ft whilst other models with same engine and 6-speed box got the full 228lbs.ft. Same peak power quoted as torque has obviously dropped by then.......
I was under the impression that the petrol and diesel boxes were the same barring final drive.....could be wrong though (?) :confused:
There are obviously big safety margins designed in around the above figures - not suggesting this conversion will be a box breaker - just interested :)
Thats interesting info.. thanks for that.
210 lb/ft is exceeded by most chip changes on 5spd 20VT's though.
I'll have to see how my 5spd lives with the IHI power. Fingers crossed it survives OK . I do have the quaife and bolt ring kit installed, so I hope the diff and crown wheel assembly stay together at least. :p
TDi motors are producing over 300lb/ft of torque when chipped so it will be interesting to see how their drive trains put up with the extra load also. Time will tell.
regards
Bill
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Thats interesting info.. thanks for that.
210 lb/ft is exceeded by most chip changes on 5spd 20VT's though.
TDi motors are producing over 300lb/ft of torque when chipped so it will be interesting to see how their drive trains put up with the extra load also.
We were having a similar discussion regarding diesel upgrades ~ all remaps and tuningbox options for TDI110 exceed 210lbs.ft peak, and similarly (as you stated) many TDI150 remaps are punching harder than 300lbs.ft.
Not heard of any disasters though, and I would guess they'd design in min 20-25% safety margin (?).
Whats the wrost that can happen? YOur 5 speed box dies and you go out and buy a nice strong Quaife 6 speed replacement with your own custom ratios! :) Or atleast thats the plan but in reality if I had a spare £1500 (?) lying around for a Quaife box then I'd of probably of already spent it on something else!
Ben
Billy T has run a 5 speed golf box for 50K ish pusshing 300-400lbft through it. Sounds like towards the end the box was a bit shagged but it's been royaly abused. 1/4 miled all the time.
He just blew his engine running 460 wheel HP with a 60 shot of nitrous.
VW obviously use prety huge safety factors.
ibizacupra
14-11-2002, 14:11
Originally posted by GtiT
Billy T has run a 5 speed golf box for 50K ish pusshing 300-400lbft through it. Sounds like towards the end the box was a bit shagged but it's been royaly abused. 1/4 miled all the time.
He just blew his engine running 460 wheel HP with a 60 shot of nitrous.
VW obviously use prety huge safety factors.
I would like to think VW learned from their experiences of early 020 boxes which were rubbish... Diff pins breaking out and through casings, synchros, gears, selectors all failing and not up to high power at all.
02J 5spd boxes seem a whole lot better and stronger.
Thank goodness!
Bill
CustardCupra
14-11-2002, 18:48
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Ben.
The std cat is integral with the downpipe so is of no use. I also doubt it would cope with the increased power or gasflow either.
No cat is an option until MOT time.(maybe)
<edit> Mike would/could modify the downpipe possibly to retain the stock cat to aid the budget and thinks it could live with the 280bhp kit <edit>
regards
Bill
So if Mike T could modify the standard downpipe assembly, then in theory he can modify the milltek downpipe . Yes/No ??????
ibizacupra
15-11-2002, 08:10
Originally posted by jools
So if Mike T could modify the standard downpipe assembly, then in theory he can modify the milltek downpipe . Yes/No ??????
I think thats a yes... you should be OK.
regards
Bill
Bill,
Any news on the conversion yet? I thought yours was due to be done around now? More delays (I'm not complaining, I know they are v busy)?
Any more news, info on the conversion?
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 13:24
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill,
Any news on the conversion yet? I thought yours was due to be done around now? More delays (I'm not complaining, I know they are v busy)?
Any more news, info on the conversion?
Cheers
Ben
Due before Xmas is all I know mate.
they have all been away on holiday for a couple of weeks.
Not sure if they're back yet.
Don't worry I am sure to post something about it when I get it done... (I'll be pretty excited)
what I have is just so frustrating now.... feels so slow after theirs. :(
tick tock.. patience. (hard for me :p)
regards
Bill
I would love to be the first in Scotland to have the conversion done so keep us posted mate.
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 18:47
Jabbasports answerphone says back on Monday 2nd December.
regards
Bill
Keep us posted... I've started saving already but probably can't afford anything until around the begining of summer... maybe I'll aim to have it done before GTI International. :)
Ben
Just out of interest Bill, are you planning on doing any chasis strengthening to handle the power of the IHI conversion?
ben
ibizacupra
27-11-2002, 13:52
Originally posted by BenS1
Just out of interest Bill, are you planning on doing any chasis strengthening to handle the power of the IHI conversion?
ben
Nope.
none planned.
Not sure it will need it.
Need it converted first :D
regards
bill
Welocome back Bill.
So, is the IHI conversion still on for 'before Christmas'? :D
I'm gonna phone Mike this week and see if he has a better idea on prices.
Bill, I know you have a Helix VR6 clutch and lightened flywheel, but did you source this and fit this yourself or can such a conversion be bought and fitted from someone like Autotechnics? The reason I ask is that I will need an uprated clutch if I get the IHI conversion but I wouldn't be able to fit it myself.
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
09-12-2002, 23:42
Originally posted by BenS1
Welocome back Bill.
So, is the IHI conversion still on for 'before Christmas'? :D
I'm gonna phone Mike this week and see if he has a better idea on prices.
Bill, I know you have a Helix VR6 clutch and lightened flywheel, but did you source this and fit this yourself or can such a conversion be bought and fitted from someone like Autotechnics? The reason I ask is that I will need an uprated clutch if I get the IHI conversion but I wouldn't be able to fit it myself.
Cheers
Ben
Autotechnik could supply and fit the same spec as mine. I would say though you would'nt be able to fit it yourself. I certainly would'nt want to myself, but I am getting lazy these days.
It is more involved than fitting brakes and is a pain to do. G'box off job.
I know Autotechnik have an exchange flywheel too (from me) which would save some ££ on the upgrade. Just needs machining to lighten and balance.
regards
Bill
Cheers Bill,
Any news on the IHI conversion? Still hoping to get it thi year or has it slipped into next year now?
cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
10-12-2002, 22:00
Originally posted by BenS1
Cheers Bill,
Any news on the IHI conversion? Still hoping to get it thi year or has it slipped into next year now?
cheers
Ben
No more news yet.
Not slipped yet.
Fingers crossed.
regards
bill
OK I've just phone Mike at Jabbasport and got some more info.... :) (Mike said that its OK for me to post this info on here.)
The kit for the Ibiza is pretty much ready now (And its the first kit available even before the Golf kit).
There are at least 3 kits and several options available:
1) 280bhp for £1700
2) 310bhp for £2200
3) 340-350bhp for £2700
All prices INCLUDE VAT but fitting is approx £260
Mike gave loads of details about what is and isn't included in each kit but I'm afraid that my brain couldn't keep up and I've forgotton most of it!
As some of you may know during development there were a few problems with the Seat ECU which mean that it kept detecting overboost and going into limp mode.... as a result they switched to using the ECU from the Audi S3. Jabbasport have now cracked the problem with the Seat ECU and so its not necessary to switch over the the more expensive S3 one, however the S3 ECU still offer some additional benefits including a much better traction control system (Similar to Racelogic traction control.)... so, if you want then you can still choose to have the S3 ECU which will cost around £360+VAT (They are trying to get them cheaper by doing a bulk by.).
Bill, incase you are wondering, it sounds like they still want to get your car done within the next week or two!!! Lucky git! ;)
Also, the kits are upgradable, so yu can start with the 280bhp option and then upgrade to 310bhp or 340bhp later without having to pay full price.
I'm saving my pennies now...
I'll probably start with the 280bhp kit as I'm still using the standard clutch and don't have a Quaife LSD yet. After the 280bhp kit I'll probably uprate the clutch and get a Quaife and then upgrade to the 340bhp kit! :)
My girlfriend still thinks my 200bhp Ibiza is standard, but how am I gonna convince her that its still standard when its got the 280bhp cnversion on it!!! I don't think "Its running much better since I had it serviced" will be sufficient! ;)
Kits should be available from January (Although Bill get his this year, lucky git!!!).
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
11-12-2002, 20:57
Originally posted by BenS1
OK I've just phone Mike at Jabbasport and got some more info.... :) (Mike said that its OK for me to post this info on here.)
The kit for the Ibiza is pretty much ready now (And its the first kit available even before the Golf kit).
There are at least 3 kits and several options available:
1) 280bhp for £1700
2) 310bhp for £2200
3) 340-350bhp for £2700
All prices INCLUDE VAT but fitting is approx £260
Mike gave loads of details about what is and isn't included in each kit but I'm afraid that my brain couldn't keep up and I've forgotton most of it!
As some of you may know during development there were a few problems with the Seat ECU which mean that it kept detecting overboost and going into limp mode.... as a result they switched to using the ECU from the Audi S3. Jabbasport have now cracked the problem with the Seat ECU and so its not necessary to switch over the the more expensive S3 one, however the S3 ECU still offer some additional benefits including a much better traction control system (Similar to Racelogic traction control.)... so, if you want then you can still choose to have the S3 ECU which will cost around £360+VAT (They are trying to get them cheaper by doing a bulk by.).
Bill, incase you are wondering, it sounds like they still want to get your car done within the next week or two!!! Lucky git! ;)
Also, the kits are upgradable, so yu can start with the 280bhp option and then upgrade to 310bhp or 340bhp later without having to pay full price.
I'm saving my pennies now...
I'll probably start with the 280bhp kit as I'm still using the standard clutch and don't have a Quaife LSD yet. After the 280bhp kit I'll probably uprate the clutch and get a Quaife and then upgrade to the 340bhp kit! :)
My girlfriend still thinks my 200bhp Ibiza is standard, but how am I gonna convince her that its still standard when its got the 280bhp cnversion on it!!! I don't think "Its running much better since I had it serviced" will be sufficient! ;)
Kits should be available from January (Although Bill get his this year, lucky git!!!).
Cheers
Ben
:D
Well that sounds like good news then.. Nice one Ben & thanks for posting this up.
I have'nt had time to contact Mike yet to see how things were going. You have saved me a job.
Prices sound even better than I thought. Mikes been veyr busy improving the spec and refining whats req'd etc.
Roll on the fitment. :D
regards
Bill
I'm definately going for it too, but I don't really need it through the winter so I'll save up and aim for about March time... or whenever the first SeatCupra.net track day is.
Let us know how you get on Bill, and be sure to post your before and after RR plot! :)
Going back to clutches etc... as I understand its torque not power that you need to uprate the clutch for, and if so then maybe a clutch from a high power diesel would actually be best?
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
My girlfriend still thinks my 200bhp Ibiza is standard, but how am I gonna convince her that its still standard when its got the 280bhp cnversion on it!!! I don't think "Its running much better since I had it serviced" will be sufficient! ;)
Cheers
Ben
If you have a boost controller she may never know, you can just up it a litle each time she's in and get it past her that way. after a while she'll be used to it.
Now theres a plan... until the day I forget! :)
As it happens I believe the kits do come with a boost controller... a brand new closed loop type. I'm not too sure what this means other than you can set the desired power or boost and it keeps it pretty much exactly at that limit.
Ben
ibizacupra
12-12-2002, 22:26
Originally posted by BenS1
I'm definately going for it too, but I don't really need it through the winter so I'll save up and aim for about March time... or whenever the first SeatCupra.net track day is.
Let us know how you get on Bill, and be sure to post your before and after RR plot! :)
Going back to clutches etc... as I understand its torque not power that you need to uprate the clutch for, and if so then maybe a clutch from a high power diesel would actually be best?
Cheers
Ben
LOL
Wot like this sort of one?
It should be pretty similar if not better hopefully.
My as-is the small hillock in the foreground. :p
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/IHIvs210-sm.jpg
:D :D :D
Bill
Will be interesting to see the real plot from a prodution kit rather than a development kit, but as you say they should be the same if not a little better on yours due to the new lower resistence roller ball turbo design.
Cheers
Ben
Pedro Merengue
26-12-2002, 11:17
:D Man now this is what I like to hear
Just a question . What other mods are needed ( Engine mounts, Trans. mounts, Bushings, .......)
:rockon: :rockon:
pedro
Hopefully no other mods will be needed (Except clutch), but only the long term test of the Jabbasport demo car (And Bills car) will tell for sure.
Ben
ibizacupra
28-12-2002, 11:56
Originally posted by Pedro Merengue
:D Man now this is what I like to hear
Just a question . What other mods are needed ( Engine mounts, Trans. mounts, Bushings, .......)
:rockon: :rockon:
pedro
My 2 penneth.
To live (and I mean survive) with this conversion/upgrade, you should have uprated suspension and brakes as a minimum before contemplating this kind of power.
A clutch upgrade is also highly recommended. My stock clutch started slipping in 5th gear @ 2500rpm with only 190bhp & 220lb/ft torque. - There is no way it would live with Jabba's potential power output. I converted to a VR6 clutch setup, which was flywheel (lightened), Helix 228mm cover plate and Helix 228mm Centre plate of the hjighest clamping pressure they could do for a VR6. - It works a treat but is more bitey and slightly heavier. My G'box also has been rebuilt with a quaife ATB diff in readyness.
As for engine mounts etc... I don't know yet. Jabba's Ibiza is running its standard ones still and I have heard no reported problems.
regards
Bill
Pedro Merengue
29-12-2002, 05:27
Originally posted by ibizacupra
My 2 penneth.
To live (and I mean survive) with this conversion/upgrade, you should have uprated suspension and brakes as a minimum before contemplating this kind of power.
A clutch upgrade is also highly recommended. My stock clutch started slipping in 5th gear @ 2500rpm with only 190bhp & 220lb/ft torque. - There is no way it would live with Jabba's potential power output. I converted to a VR6 clutch setup, which was flywheel (lightened), Helix 228mm cover plate and Helix 228mm Centre plate of the hjighest clamping pressure they could do for a VR6. - It works a treat but is more bitey and slightly heavier. My G'box also has been rebuilt with a quaife ATB diff in readyness.
As for engine mounts etc... I don't know yet. Jabba's Ibiza is running its standard ones still and I have heard no reported problems.
regards
Bill
Thanks Bill.... :)
As much as the info is good it makes me a bit sad:( . The thing is that there are no Professional workshops that do this kind of "easy jobs such as removal and installation":angry: without putting a knife in your heart - I am not talking about only money here.
Anyway thanks again for the info
and have a Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year
Cheers mate:cheers:
Pedro
Pedro Merengue
29-12-2002, 06:12
Hello ALL
:)
I was wondering if anyone knows the e-mail of mike from Jabbasport( guess that's for you ben);) or if a list of the parts for all three types of upgrades can be provided .
You know the Jabbasport Web site is under construction and I CAN'T WAIT TO GET IT:devil:
Another question.....What about the prices without VAT.......:D
I love it when I do not pay taxes:dance1:
Cheers
pedro
Maybe a silly question... Is this including the labor? If not, would it maybe be possible to get it as a do-it-yourself kit since I do not feel like driving my car all the way over th the UK from sweden. And besides, you guys drive on the wrong side of the street, and that sounds dangerous to me ;)
Carl
ibizacupra
29-12-2002, 17:02
Originally posted by Pedro Merengue
Hello ALL
:)
I was wondering if anyone knows the e-mail of mike from Jabbasport( guess that's for you ben);) or if a list of the parts for all three types of upgrades can be provided .
You know the Jabbasport Web site is under construction and I CAN'T WAIT TO GET IT:devil:
Another question.....What about the prices without VAT.......:D
I love it when I do not pay taxes:dance1:
Cheers
pedro
Nett off 17.5% to get a VAT free price.
(UK VAT is 17.5%)
Fitting is extra I believe and kits of parts for DIY fitment will be made available.
Early in the New Year Jabbasports website should be made live again (its well in hand as I understand) and has a comprehensive list of kits and options by model and option.
regards
Bill
maybe staright forward enought to DIY but you're paying for a vag and tuning specialist who is known for excellent work. how would you intend to map it for starters?
Jabbasport tend to do custom maps for your car (Unlike most other tuners) and this allows them to get the best power for your car, however Jabbasport do offer genric maps (Like other tuners) that will work on all Ibizas but you may end up a few bhp down than that of a custom map.... so, if you live a long way away and want to fit the kit yourself then the generic map sounds like the way to go.
Ben
Pedro Merengue
30-12-2002, 05:10
Originally posted by BenS1
Jabbasport tend to do custom maps for your car (Unlike most other tuners) and this allows them to get the best power for your car, however Jabbasport do offer genric maps (Like other tuners) that will work on all Ibizas but you may end up a few bhp down than that of a custom map.... so, if you live a long way away and want to fit the kit yourself then the generic map sounds like the way to go.
Ben
:) Ben
I was wondering.
Do you think it can be done by providing a "mapped" ECU for a specific VIN number( just for the security immobilizer). I mean how many different types of IBIZA engines there are? For example an IBIZA cupra 20VT can be custom mapped on site and the map can be coppied to any other Ibiza Cupra 20VT ECU after fixing the immobilizer thing, and then it can be shipped all around the world ( without loosing the few BHP you talked about;) )
I live in The UAE and all I have to do for example is just send the VIN and Part number of my ECU ( and the money of course:eek: ) to jabbasport. Then they can get a new ECU from the dealer, custom-map it, put it with all the other stuff and send it back. All I have to do after that is just remove my old ECU and fit the NEW remapped one.......( plus all the other gizmos...)
This is just an idea because I think that APR Europe is doing that, why wouldn't Jaba Sport.
What do you think?
Cheers mate:cheers:
pedro
Pedro,
Its not a problem of different types of engine and ECU but the fact is that every engine has slightly different characteristics... two seeminlgy identical Ibizas with the same ECUs and same engines will probably show slightly different results on a rolling road (eg. Mine and Bills... bought from the same dealership in the same month, in the same colour etc yet mine show 10bhp more than Bills on the RR!!!)! For this reason the only way to get the most out of the engine is for a custom map for your engines characteristics!
Ben
ibizacupra
30-12-2002, 12:15
Originally posted by Pedro Merengue
:) Ben
I was wondering.
Do you think it can be done by providing a "mapped" ECU for a specific VIN number( just for the security immobilizer). I mean how many different types of IBIZA engines there are? For example an IBIZA cupra 20VT can be custom mapped on site and the map can be coppied to any other Ibiza Cupra 20VT ECU after fixing the immobilizer thing, and then it can be shipped all around the world ( without loosing the few BHP you talked about;) )
I live in The UAE and all I have to do for example is just send the VIN and Part number of my ECU ( and the money of course:eek: ) to jabbasport. Then they can get a new ECU from the dealer, custom-map it, put it with all the other stuff and send it back. All I have to do after that is just remove my old ECU and fit the NEW remapped one.......( plus all the other gizmos...)
This is just an idea because I think that APR Europe is doing that, why wouldn't Jaba Sport.
What do you think?
Cheers mate:cheers:
pedro
OR...
You send Jabbasport your ECU, they fit and program the chip and send it back. Still a generic map, but like Bens says, most other tuners do the generic one for all chip thing anyway. Maybe not optimised for the last couple of bhp, but a huge gain none the less.
regards
Bill
Anyone have an idea of how much boost they run at these hp levels? Must almost be close to 2 bar, or is the IHI som much better it doesn't have to run mad amounts of boost?
Carl
ibizacupra
01-01-2003, 18:28
Originally posted by rug
Anyone have an idea of how much boost they run at these hp levels? Must almost be close to 2 bar, or is the IHI som much better it doesn't have to run mad amounts of boost?
Carl
Nope 1bar, peaking at 1.15bar on overboost.
It just shifts a lot more air through the motor being the larger unit mounted onto their own larger exhaust manifold.
regards
Bill
Is this just an Ibiza thing, or can other 20VTers join in on the fun?
It's suitable for all 20VT engines in any VAG car
Sounds good to me, I think it'll take me a few months to save up, so by then they might have the webby finished with more info :)
Website is supposed to be done this month but like most people it's probably finding enough time or money. When I spoke to Mike in December he said it was hopefully Jan time.
ibizacupra
16-01-2003, 13:07
I am at Jabba on Saturday delivering my car for this upgrade.
I'll see if its possible to take piccies during the upgrade etc, identify parts, pictures etc, so the conversion can be seen.
regards
Bill
EXCELLENT Bill, 'bout time! :)
How long will it be before the cars ready? (Roughly)
Take it easy on the winter roads with all that power!
Pics and as many details as possible would be good. And please post your new dynoplot! :D
Ben
ibizacupra
19-01-2003, 16:33
Originally posted by BenS1
EXCELLENT Bill, 'bout time! :)
How long will it be before the cars ready? (Roughly)
Take it easy on the winter roads with all that power!
Pics and as many details as possible would be good. And please post your new dynoplot! :D
Ben
Well the cars now there waiting for its treatment this coming week.
I drove the demonstrator again, this time it is running in the same spec as mine will be.
Boost controller is fitted which gives between .75bar low boost and 1.15bar full boost and a steady progression as to how aggressive the delivery is or is'nt. This is a really nice feature and enabled the power to equate to traction in the wet conditions (again!).
Super smooth when you want it to be in town driving style, and as missile when you let her rip.
Ever had TCS come on at 130mph? - I have now!
Hell of a piece of kit.
Excitement building.
Should be good.
I have a latest dynoplot of their car which I will post up shortly.
All good fun.
regards
Bill
Ever had TCS come on at 130mph? - I have now!
follow the brown streak then!
Cool, I bet you can't wait!
Any more news on the final prices?
Any idea when the full details will be up on their website?
Lets see the plots then! ;)
Cheers
Ben
I read on the "APR are pissed off" thread that progress is being made with your IHI conversion then Bill. Any more news?
Everything going to plan and on schedule?
I keep having a nightmare thought that Mike discovers some difference on the AYP engines which means either:
1) The conversion is not possible
2) The conversion produces a lot less power on AYP engines
3) SOmething doesn't fit on the AYP engines so there will be an xyz delay whilst a part is redesigned, and it will cost £xyz more to cover the additional costs.
Sorry, I'm bit of a pesimist.
I hope it all goes well.... I can't wait to order mine! :D
BTW, does the Jabba demo Ibiza have the S3 ECU option (With its improved traction control)? And if you don't mine me asking, have you opted for the S3 ECU or are you sticking with the Ibiza one.
I'm interested to see how good the S3 ECU traction control really is... if it really works like the Racelogic system then it should be impossible to get noticable wheelspin because as soon as the wheels begin to spin it would cut all power within 1/2 an engine rotation until traction is regained.
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
I read on the "APR are pissed off" thread that progress is being made with your IHI conversion then Bill. Any more news?
Everything going to plan and on schedule?
I keep having a nightmare thought that Mike discovers some difference on the AYP engines which means either:
1) The conversion is not possible
2) The conversion produces a lot less power on AYP engines
3) SOmething doesn't fit on the AYP engines so there will be an xyz delay whilst a part is redesigned, and it will cost £xyz more to cover the additional costs.
Sorry, I'm bit of a pesimist.
I hope it all goes well.... I can't wait to order mine! :D
BTW, does the Jabba demo Ibiza have the S3 ECU option (With its improved traction control)? And if you don't mine me asking, have you opted for the S3 ECU or are you sticking with the Ibiza one.
I'm interested to see how good the S3 ECU traction control really is... if it really works like the Racelogic system then it should be impossible to get noticable wheelspin because as soon as the wheels begin to spin it would cut all power within 1/2 an engine rotation until traction is regained.
Cheers
Ben
When I drove it the TCS was a bit like an rev limiter making the car sort of pop as though misfiring, totally different and much better to the Ibiza system.
Yeah, that sounds like the Racelogic type of system. So, does that mean that when active its impossible to spin the wheels? If so then I'll definately get the S3 ECU option.
Cheers
Ben
I thought it coped very well with the power on tap, much better than the Ibiza one does now in fact. Don't know what sort of cost it is, if cheap enough it would be a good option anyway.
Mike told me £300.... which isn't bad as a standard ECU for my old Pug 306 was £700!!!
I'm gonna have to book a test drive arn't I!!! :D
Ben
You won't be disappointed, guarenteed.
I'm already saving and I haven't even seen the thing (Not that theres anything different to look at). I want one, and I want one now! :)
I'm not sure if I want a test drive... I think it'd bring more of a smile to my face if I just buy the conversion, put my car in, pick it up a week later and feel the power for the 1st time! Big grin.
As Bill said, if I have a test drive then my car in its current state will feel pig slow! :(
Also, I don't make a very good passenger and I'm sure Mike would scare the pants off of me! :D
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
22-01-2003, 09:52
Originally posted by BenS1
I'm already saving and I haven't even seen the thing (Not that theres anything different to look at). I want one, and I want one now! :)
I'm not sure if I want a test drive... I think it'd bring more of a smile to my face if I just buy the conversion, put my car in, pick it up a week later and feel the power for the 1st time! Big grin.
As Bill said, if I have a test drive then my car in its current state will feel pig slow! :(
Also, I don't make a very good passenger and I'm sure Mike would scare the pants off of me! :D
Cheers
Ben
Wheelspin at 130-mph anyone? :p
"scare the pants off me........" and I was driving... Poor Mike. :)
The TCS is smoother, but in the wet it still spins in 2nd and 3rd on full chat.... TCS pops and wheezes whilst trying to control, and its much smoother, progressive TCS than the shite Ibiza one. I have'nt tried TCS off, but then again its been wet on every test drive so far... I still don't really know what the true potential acceleration will be when its does get grip!
Wind the boost down and its much better in the wet at planting the power... slower spool up and better ecceleration.
Mine is getting the S3/TT ECU yes.
Get yourself a test drive Ben... You will understand then properly what exactly you are saving for.... It might not be quite what you are expecting mate... (in a +ve, loads more kind of way!)
Mines progressing Ok, last I heard. I have to buy a new MAF as mines apparently faulty (not electrically). My turbo was also cracked... Hmmm. Wonder about your "210" also... Track used like mine.
regards
Bill
Cracked turbo?!
Hmm. Where? How?
Bill, can't you get the MAF under warantee? Also you should be able to get a turbo under warantee (Not that you will be needing it, but its nicer to have a brand new unused K03 sitting your spares pile rather than an old cracked one.). OK, a dealership would probably expect you to take the car in rather than the two faulty parts, but a delaership like Amethyst might understand. :)
Yeah Bill, I think I might go for that test drive.... the other problem is that I'm gonna start with the 280bhp conversion (I'll upgrade later if the 280 proves reliable.), so if I test the 340bhp conversion then even my 280bhp rocket may feel slow in comparision. :(
BTW, I think you said that you have the latest dyno plots from the demo car (Which you said is exactly the same spec as your will be).... whats the final power output? Is it 340bhp as expected?
As the S3 ECU.... it sounds like a must.
Keep us posted.
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
22-01-2003, 13:03
Originally posted by Sim
Cracked turbo?!
Hmm. Where? How?
I have'nt seen it myself yet...
Will do Saturday.
quite common although not on lo wmilage engines.
Rapid heating and cooling is the cause... stress in casting.
Bill
ibizacupra
22-01-2003, 13:05
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill, can't you get the MAF under warantee? Also you should be able to get a turbo under warantee (Not that you will be needing it, but its nicer to have a brand new unused K03 sitting your spares pile rather than an old cracked one.). OK, a dealership would probably expect you to take the car in rather than the two faulty parts, but a delaership like Amethyst might understand. :)
Yeah Bill, I think I might go for that test drive.... the other problem is that I'm gonna start with the 280bhp conversion (I'll upgrade later if the 280 proves reliable.), so if I test the 340bhp conversion then even my 280bhp rocket may feel slow in comparision. :(
BTW, I think you said that you have the latest dyno plots from the demo car (Which you said is exactly the same spec as your will be).... whats the final power output? Is it 340bhp as expected?
As the S3 ECU.... it sounds like a must.
Keep us posted.
Cheers
Ben
No Warranty Ben.
Tried already with Amethyst,...
Not tried Turbo tho... Will see.
I aint holding my breath.
I'll dig out the dyno and scan/post it up....
(The dyno sheets's in my wifes car tho)
Bill
Hi guys,
Been reading the threads on the Jabbasport conversion with interest. Something I'm keen on doing one day. :)
One of the concerns I have is about the ability of the standard cooling system to deal with the extra heat. With twice the power out, thats twice the heat. Is the standard radiator up to the job? Is there enough coolant flow through the head to remove enough heat? Anyone know the standard figures the cooling system can deal with for the Leon and Ibiza?
I guess it would be fine for short bursts as there would be enough thermal inertia in the head and block to deal with that. (I'm assuming the std cooling system is used un-modded)
Keep us posted on the progress!
Regs
Peter
ibizacupra
24-01-2003, 10:54
Originally posted by PeterS
Hi guys,
Been reading the threads on the Jabbasport conversion with interest. Something I'm keen on doing one day. :)
One of the concerns I have is about the ability of the standard cooling system to deal with the extra heat. With twice the power out, thats twice the heat. Is the standard radiator up to the job? Is there enough coolant flow through the head to remove enough heat? Anyone know the standard figures the cooling system can deal with for the Leon and Ibiza?
I guess it would be fine for short bursts as there would be enough thermal inertia in the head and block to deal with that. (I'm assuming the std cooling system is used un-modded)
Keep us posted on the progress!
Regs
Peter
Twice the power does'nt equal twice the heat.
Compared to a K03 chipped to 1bar or K04, the IHI runs cooler.
What you get is a significant increase in airflow, where actual produced boost (heating the induction) actually relates to good airflow. 1 bar boost is around the same as many chipped K03's run at. K03/K04 becomes the restriction itself, where you wind the boost up, the airflow becomes log jammed due to flow restrictions, which holds up boost levels for no increased airflow, but does increase heat (bad thing).
IHI flows more, is larger, and does not suffer this problem.
Cooling is not an issue at all. Radiators huge as it is and the thermal stress is going to be less from what I have seen.
regards
Bill
max_torque
24-01-2003, 11:42
Twice the power does not equal twice the heat!
in fact typically twice the power will equal maybe 3.5 times the heat rejection from the fuel. Its because as cylinder filling increases, the onset of detonation forces retarded ignition timing. hence flywheel torque does not increase as a direct ratio to airflow. but you will be burning much more fuel (again about 3.5 times as much for a turbo engine) this heat release will increase cylinder metal temps and combined with a higher cylinder pressure (again with turbos' cylinder pressure curve gets fatter rather than much taller due to late ignition timing) will increase mechanical stress on head / block /pistons / valves etc. Luckily the one thing that a late burn does for you is to send the majority of this extra heat out the exhaust, which sends pre turbine temps through the roof (and requires even more fuel to stop turbo / cat melting) but does reduce heat rejection to cylinder head / block. (amazing how many tuned turbo cars i see without an EGT gauge / logger!)(ask your tuner what he controls maximum exhaust gas temp to, and what AFR is requried in order to do so, if he goes "EH?" WALK AWAY!
For a typical engine i would design in a water flow rate of 1 l/min for each flywheel kW of power to maintian sensible cylinder head metal temps. But this is for a production engine, that will sit for a minimum of 180hrs at peak power speed wide open throttle before being released to production. (again this explains why so many aftermarket engine tunes fail to produce stunning power claimed when tested as outputs are flash readings with cold engines!)
The reason the big turbo / manifold works for the 1.8T is because the larger turbine reduces pre turbine pressure for a given air mass flow, which improves the engines presure ratio (less boost requried for same airflow = less compressor work = low air charge temp = less intercooler work, or a low plenum temp), and also reduces in-cylinder residuals that are hot and displace incoming fresh air charge, and cause detonation. Therefore you can run same airflow at less boost, more advanced ignition and with less fuel required to keep combustion temps sensible, All these things improve the engines BSAC, and help power output!
However you loose all nice low down response from a small turbo, and loose emissions performance as the larger turbo / big manifold takes longer to heat from a cold start. As to how long you engine will last with these mods? - no idea!
Thanks for the replies guys - very informative.
Bill - I read yours to say that as the same inlet pressure is produced, the intercooler should cope (but with increased air flow rates still more heat to remove?)
Mark - very interesting - I had not appreciated the relationship with the timing and EGT.
Next questions
- do Jabba measure the EGT??
- what is the water flow rate the standard pump produces (at the revs at say peak power on the jabba plot)? Hope its enough!
Peter
ibizacupra
24-01-2003, 13:26
Originally posted by max_torque
However you loose all nice low down response from a small turbo, and loose emissions performance as the larger turbo / big manifold takes longer to heat from a cold start. As to how long you engine will last with these mods? - no idea!
Excellent info as ever Paul. Thanks.
The IHI is a roller bearing unit and spools up well and early... Max boost is developed at 2800rpm, which is only a little higher than my chipped K03 ran (2500rpm).
Nice power progression as can be seen on the original power plot I posted. (its smoother now than that first plot, after further mapping was done.)
The 1st dynoplot I posted was on an older design of IHI, which is'nt roller bearing, and Mike says the new one being fitted to mine will spool earlier and last longer. (fingers crossed)
How long wil it all last?
I'll let you know :D
On the EGT thing, what would you say was a safe and expected temp? I have a new SPA Dual gauge for oil temp/pressure and was going to get a Dual boost/EGT also. I have no idea what EGT would be the target for a motor with this spec. (I also don't know many tuners who tune to EGT either, although USA peeps use this a lot I know)
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
24-01-2003, 13:31
Originally posted by PeterS
Thanks for the replies guys - very informative.
Bill - I read yours to say that as the same inlet pressure is produced, the intercooler should cope (but with increased air flow rates still more heat to remove?)
Mark - very interesting - I had not appreciated the relationship with the timing and EGT.
Next questions
- do Jabba measure the EGT??
- what is the water flow rate the standard pump produces (at the revs at say peak power on the jabba plot)? Hope its enough!
Peter
I don't know of any tuner here who uses the EGT to be honest, but thats not saying they don't. AF Ratio is used from lambda/Uego (sp) sensors for load fueling checks.
Jabba have been running these high power conversions for a few years now, and cooling has never been an issue. It was reported that K04's suffered very badly with cooling, especially on TT's etc, but that was mainly charge temps raising very high.
I have myself an oil temp and pressure gauge to fit to monitor things. An EGT/Boost guage is also on the cards (sooner rather than later me thinks now)
regards
Bill
The only thing i know is that the KKK turbos are designed to operate up till 1050C deg. I think this is already a quite high EGT so the alu head would suffer earlier than the turbo. The vortexters run max(!!!) 900C deg and they are pretty irresponsible.