View Full Version : APR @ Stealth Low Power Part 2
Shock_Xe
21-11-2002, 22:14
I posted a thread about low power from above topic previously. However it has now gone drastically worse..... At stealth it was 185. Now ive had it RR since (3 times) and i got 154/156/164 in chipped mode. While standard mode (APR switchable chip) got 164. However boost on chipped mode spikes at 17psi holds at 15psi until 5250rpm then tails off and standard spikes at 9/10psi and holds at 7psi and tails off but gets the same power reading as chipped mode!!!!! Torque is about 30-50nm higher than standard but its very little gain in retrospect.
Something is definatly wrong anyideas???? :no: :hammer:
Also spoke to vince @ stealth and im arranging to go back, but i would like to go armed with as much knowledge as possible
Thanks
Mike
Was the car std aside from the chip? ie no ecosqueak, no hurricane (or was cold air pointing at the air intake?) and was the intercooler fed cold air?
M
Shock,
as i already said, don't worry/care about boost! Squiffy even decided to get his cams swapped, because he also had boost but still no power. Go and replace that ****ing N75 valve. Newbos also managed to fix his car.
Also do the turbo spin up test (unhook wastegate)!!! IT WILL FIX YOUR CAR BELIEVE ME!
Shock_Xe
21-11-2002, 22:54
markp: ecoteck has been turned off, Mods include forge dv007 and hurricane with pipe re-routed to wing (Factory Position) and yes cold air feed was directed at intercooler.
Sim: Which version of N75 do you recomend??? and how do i unhook the wastegate?? Where is it i dont know where to start??
thanks for your help
Shock,
i know you should be pretty disappointed by now. Just like as i was. First, calm down. Yours is not the first car which does this. The good news is that all of the problematic cars i know about seem to be fixed by now (except yours ;) )
Do not take the car to anybody else, fix it yourself and follow the steps described here:
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=9515
as an addendum; unhooking wastegate may have been playing a significant role in eliminating this problem. Just clog the pipe going to the N75 valve. Just like the restrictor, but with no hole in it at all.
Shock_Xe
21-11-2002, 23:10
So basically replace the n75 valve?? with a c ver?? how do i particularly order a c ver??? just ask for a c n75?? and what improvements should i see??
The N75 valve has got a part number (can't recall it now). There is a letter after the digits, F or C. The "C" version may not be available anymore, so get an F then. Unhook your wastegate first.
Shock_Xe
21-11-2002, 23:22
Will plugging hole cause any errors?? as i dont have vagcom
Do the following tomorrow:
Put a "restrictor" before the N75 valve which blocks the air totally (no hole in it at all). It will do the wastegate unhooking.
Drive the car. You will find it very fast. Don't revert the wastegate unhooking. Use the car with greatest caution until you notice that ECU begins to cut power (apply some full throttle btw). When ECU begins to cut power it is a good sign, turbo boosts like hell, get out the blocking. If your car is back again going poo (after this), get a new N75 valve!
If the car is in perfect condition, unhooking wastegate will cause the ECU to close throttle body (@ around 3500 RPM). By closing throttle body vacuum is generated, which will open the DV. This will vent the excessive boost back to the inlet so it cannot enter the engine (causing damage). When my car was bad, and wastegate was unhooked ECU did not close the throttle body (to open DV) so i suspect it was kinda happy with the boost the turbo produced that way. Now as the car is OK (at least i hope), i cannot do this trick as ECU vents boost almost immediately. If you notice ECU venting boost (cutting power) then get out the block.
This test will probably drop some errors...Don't worry about them
Shock_Xe
21-11-2002, 23:38
ok thanks. I think i might get the cable for vag com too to clear the codes. Will it go into limp mode?? Or will i be able to clear the fault codes by disconnecting the battery for 1 min and turning ignition on for 3mins ???
thanks
mike
Yes it will probably go into limp mode, but with wastegate unhooked (N75 deactivated) you will not feel it. It will return to no-limp mode when you restart engine. Clearing codes may be done after all this. I bet my ECU is full with codes, too ;).
Shock_Xe
21-11-2002, 23:46
ahhh, i thought limp mode had to be cleared with vag com or something! Cool ill give this a try tomorrow, what i got to loose?? Nothing but Gain!!! Basically when i do this if ecu doesnt shut down at 3500rpm or there abouts straight away my n75 is shagged!!! If it does its ok!!!! Right??
Ill report back tomorrow first thing!
Thanks for your help sim much appreciated!!!!
:)
Mike
Im not sure it's all the N75's fault.
One thing is sure. If your car will feel fast with wastegate unhooked, and ECU doesn't cut power there is something wrong. This was the case with my car aswell. Drive the car until you notice ECU is cutting power. That is the normal scenario. Remove the clogging before N75 and see if it's ok or not.
Do the test tomorrow and tell me if your car is cutting power or not (closing throttle body or not).
Guys you have frighted me to death. I am buying my cupra next wednesday and i am scared shitless that i could get these problems... :shock:
Shock_Xe
22-11-2002, 00:36
its quite possible. Sim and myself are some of a long line of chipped problamtic ayp engines!!!
What does AYP engine mean? Hope mine will be ok... :(
ibizacupra
22-11-2002, 08:05
Originally posted by taglo
What does AYP engine mean? Hope mine will be ok... :( AYP is just the particular engine code. AQX is another (earlier) Ibiza 20VT engine code.
AYP ones seem to have more issues... not all engines, just some.
regards
Bill
Where can I see what code my cupra engine is?
ibizacupra
22-11-2002, 18:32
Originally posted by taglo
Where can I see what code my cupra engine is?
On mine (and yours) you will see a dot matrix stamping of the engine code on the head casting on the LHS as lookinging into the engine bay, near the rocker cover. It faces upward and is easy to see. (remove the plastic engine cover btw)
Also the number should be on a small sticker located on the boot floor under the carpet.
regards
Bill
If it's a late 2001, 2002 model then it's an AYP.
Yeap, the car was out on the roads in March 2002 so AYP I guess. I'll check it out when I get the car. Should be next Wednesday that i'll have my new yellow baby... :D :D :D
can't wait...
Have you tried unplugging the MAF sensor yet to eliminate that? A bad MAF can also cause similar issues with power. By unplugging the MAF the car will revert to using the MAP sensor, if no immediate improvement is felt then the MAF is probably ok.
When you unplug the MAF the TCS and ABS warning lights will come on but the car will drive normally. These lights will/should go off when you plug the MAF back in.
Worth a try IMO.
Mark
Shock_Xe
23-11-2002, 14:06
Originally posted by dreamer
Have you tried unplugging the MAF sensor yet to eliminate that? A bad MAF can also cause similar issues with power. By unplugging the MAF the car will revert to using the MAP sensor, if no immediate improvement is felt then the MAF is probably ok.
When you unplug the MAF the TCS and ABS warning lights will come on but the car will drive normally. These lights will/should go off when you plug the MAF back in.
Worth a try IMO.
Mark
where is the maf??
Locate the airbox (or induction kit). Unclip the first connector (may be a bit though) you can find after it (4 wires as far as i remember). I don't think that you have problem with the MAF. The car will actually feel (and be) faster with MAF disconnected, but no major improvement. Have you unhooked the wastegate as i described?
Shock_Xe
24-11-2002, 15:33
havent had a chance to unhook wastegate, been working and im off to stealth now so ive forwarded links to these threads to him to see what he says and hopefully we will sort it out @ stealth tomorrow.
Let you know
cheers
mike
I know what will they say; "It's all bullsh1t"
But hey! This fixed my car (and squiffy's and newbos').
Shock_Xe
25-11-2002, 17:01
actually that is what they said!!
However it was up stealth today for a good few hours and Rich from APR was there, The bumper was off, bits everywhere and 5 rolling road runs:
212bhp (all standard air box)
206bhp
196bhp
192bhp
187bhp (hurricane on)
Average 199bhp
Good figures overall obviously getting lower gradually due to heat soak. So over all happy :) :) :)
Thanks to Rich from APR a very cool nice guy!!!
&
Vince and the guys from Stealth Who are as always very helpfull.
Aftersales service from both APR & Stealth and been A1 5* and higly recomended,
Thanks to everyone there and eveeryone here for your help
mike
so what problem did you have then?! ;)
Shock_Xe
25-11-2002, 23:22
your guess is as good as mine, it went in low power came out high.
Heh, i bet they followed my instructions then said "We fixed your car" ;)
212Bhp? thats impresive actually if the mods you have done to your cupra (that increase bhp) are an APR chip and a N75 restrictor...
Shock_Xe
26-11-2002, 00:49
yup thats all the mods, plus forge dv. But that was on the first run got considerably less with a bit of heat. So im working on the average of the 5 runs which works out at 199bhp which is still quite good!
And how does the restrictor work for you?
chriskaven
26-11-2002, 10:40
What was the torque?
Shock_Xe
26-11-2002, 11:13
seems ok, tourque was between 212 and 220
I'd be very interested in how they actually inmproved the car.
I also read very low power readings (APR 1.0bar), when using VAGCOM, but I do not hold all faith in the way VAGCOM reads calculated torque and load with chipped cars (due to map changes etc..).
If you have any idea what your initial problem was, let us know. :)
ADE
I think the initial problem (from reading back over the older threads) is that when it was chipped & the first runs were done (when cold) the car had a whoosy DV, ecotech & hurricane on.
the whoosy dv & ecotech cause boost related problems & the hurricane can't pick up cold air from the HOT rolling road all that well.
however, the car was warm when the forge normal dv was put on so the heatsink had caused some issues & hence the heat was up & the power was down.
Mark
Originally posted by ademason99
I'd be very interested in how they actually inmproved the car.
I also read very low power readings (APR 1.0bar), when using VAGCOM, but I do not hold all faith in the way VAGCOM reads calculated torque and load with chipped cars (due to map changes etc..).
ADE
Is the VAG-COM derived torque at the wheels rather than the flywheel?
My standard AYP Ibiza with 2.5" Milltek reads 143bhp with VAG-COM on a 13 Deg. C day although I had to lift at 5500-ish RPM due to traffic!
Originally posted by MarkP
however, the car was warm when the forge normal dv was put on so the heatsink had caused some issues & hence the heat was up & the power was down.
Mark
Quite, check out my plot in the Intercooler? thread to see how much inlet temp increases (& how quickly) on a standard engine just by lifting off slightly on the road (as opposed to hot RR).
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 13:37
Originally posted by ademason99
I'd be very interested in how they actually inmproved the car.
I also read very low power readings (APR 1.0bar), when using VAGCOM, but I do not hold all faith in the way VAGCOM reads calculated torque and load with chipped cars (due to map changes etc..).
If you have any idea what your initial problem was, let us know. :)
ADE My VAG-COM results reflect actual RR's I've had done also.
I believe it. :)
Don't like the results mind.... :(
Bill
Shock_Xe
26-11-2002, 13:38
Originally posted by MarkP
I think the initial problem (from reading back over the older threads) is that when it was chipped & the first runs were done (when cold) the car had a whoosy DV, ecotech & hurricane on.
the whoosy dv & ecotech cause boost related problems & the hurricane can't pick up cold air from the HOT rolling road all that well.
however, the car was warm when the forge normal dv was put on so the heatsink had caused some issues & hence the heat was up & the power was down.
Mark
thats pretty much what they said. It was put back to standard except for forge. And intercooler temps were alot lower than 1st time plus what ever else was done. However even on the third run after alot of heat soak and no time given for cooling it still produced over 190
Shock_Xe
26-11-2002, 14:21
Originally posted by ibizacupra
My VAG-COM results reflect actual RR's I've had done also.
I believe it. :)
Don't like the results mind.... :(
Bill
bill you tried without induction kit?? As mine lost 10bhp on RR. Airbox performed much better
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 16:49
Originally posted by Shock_Xe
bill you tried without induction kit?? As mine lost 10bhp on RR. Airbox performed much better
LOL this old Chesnut.
RR's and the cold air pipe on the Hurricane don't mix. Car sat low in rollers producing heat. The stock airbox breathes from the top of the arch liner, away from the rollers, and the Hurricane breathes from low down in the front spoiler by the rollers.
I had mine RR's @ Stealth early this year with both APR and Oettinger, and best power available on min was a one off reading of 193bhp, but mostly high 180's.
On the road, with real airflow, things work significantly better and the cold air feed pipe has cold airflow to breathe from.
When I have done other dyno's (RR ones) I moved the cold air feed pipe from the low position advised by Tuning concepts to the stock position higher in the arch. Same end results as stock pretty much on the dyno, as with airbox. ~189bhp give or take.
The only method I could get repeatable measurements, was by using VAG-COM and driving power runs in 4th, logging airflow, induction temp & torque. - On the road on 3 repeat runs, the Hurricane flowed more air than stock, produced more torque and hence more power.
I have seen many posts re power outputs reading low on RR's, and the Hurricane has been "blamed" for the low output. This is'nt a great test, as airflow and induction temps on a RR dyno are not indicative of real roads and real driving.
One thing the stock airbox does well is breathe from a cooler spot, although through a very small pipe.
Remember my original test data which proved the Hurricanes on the road performance, well that was against a stock airbox.
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/hurricane-v-std-small.jpg
and the test results themselves>> http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/std-vs-hurricane.PDF
regards
Bill
RichardBW
26-11-2002, 17:23
Myself and Vince @ Stealth did not alter the car in any way other than removing the front bumper and refit standard air box.
Bumper removed to aid consistancy of runs knowing we may do more than one and airbox refitted to get the car as close to standard as poss and also knowing the problems of induction kits on Rollers.
The DV was left on as the boost was holding ok.
I think the initial low reading on the day of the chip install was due to the removal of the blow off DV just afterwards as the ECU was pretty much adapted to this. A Diverter valve was then fitted and the car run on the RR straight away, hence very little adaptation to this new set up, a little heat soak due to a run previously and all this causing low power readings.
We did not set out to prove a problem with the Hurricane, this was the last run of three which we did not try any cooling methods hence the reading would have been lower with a standard air box.
All this was done just to prove the heat soak problems that are worse on the Ibiza than any other VAG 1.8T car.
This car was driven on the road for a very short test afterwards and the power was good.
Anyone getting a RR on an Ibiza should ideally go to someone they know has experience of this car and it's inherrant problems. They will then know how to treat the car properly and get a true reading and I am not suggesting that you all remove your front bumper for the RR day at Stealth in Jan ;)
;)
Right whos bringing the spanners. :D
Can see a feaverish pitstop goin on outside Stealth, front bumpers coming off the lot :D
RichardBW
26-11-2002, 17:39
I can now remove the complete front nose/bumper from my Ibiza in about 3mins 30secs :D too many intercooler changes in too short a time I think.
Originally posted by Richard APR
All this was done just to prove the heat soak problems that are worse on the Ibiza than any other VAG 1.8T car.
Perhaps this is why it's (apparently) the only 1.8T car with a 'firmware' boost limit? I'd expect the designers would have encountered this during testing?
All that hot engine in such little space - extra oil cooler might be worth investigating but would involve remoting the oil filter as there's no space for a sandwich plate.
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 18:56
re Heatsoak and its effect.
When I ran mine on Jabbasports rollers on the evening of Alconbury, the first cool run gave 189bhp, and the repeat run less than 5mins later gave 184bhp... Heatsoak and the little beezer taking its effect.
(and that is with fans blowing into all the critical areas)
regards
Bill
OK, here's my story. Today i had a chance to get my car RR'd. Guess what it gave 180Bhp/280Nm possibly major heatsoaked (no cooling device used), fans were spinning like hell. Previously it gave 195Bhp with a huge cooling fan blowing air this summer.
BTW, i know it has a problem now, DV releases boost on full throttle (not a DV problem, BOSCH and Forge one do the same). Maybe it might need a throttle body alignment?! How is it done (again)?
Shock_Xe
27-11-2002, 02:53
throttle body is done by disconnecting battery for 1 min, re-connecting it and turning ignition on but not starting engine and leave ignition on for about 3 mins. (Some1 correct me if im wrong)
Bill, I did re-route the hose into the wing and in standard road this had a positive affect and went from 152bhp - 164bhp but made no difference in chipped mode producing 185bhp. Howwever all runs with standard air box ranged from 192 - 212bhp in four runs With the third and fourth run done straight after the previous allowing no time for cooling to give an aggressive reading. Then the car was allowed to cool while hurricane was put on and the temp reading was that of the second run, (197bhp) then run the car thus a loss of aout 10bhp
ibizacupra
27-11-2002, 08:30
Originally posted by Shock_Xe
throttle body is done by disconnecting battery for 1 min, re-connecting it and turning ignition on but not starting engine and leave ignition on for about 3 mins. (Some1 correct me if im wrong)
Bill, I did re-route the hose into the wing and in standard road this had a positive affect and went from 152bhp - 164bhp but made no difference in chipped mode producing 185bhp. Howwever all runs with standard air box ranged from 192 - 212bhp in four runs With the third and fourth run done straight after the previous allowing no time for cooling to give an aggressive reading. Then the car was allowed to cool while hurricane was put on and the temp reading was that of the second run, (197bhp) then run the car thus a loss of aout 10bhp
Dyno RR's are'nt real roads mate.
I'll stick with datalogged results in real world driving personally as it represents what we actually use our cars on.
Glad your motor is running well though.... strange figures before hand tho.
regards
Bill
chriskaven
27-11-2002, 11:02
The first time you went to stealth i believe you did not have the restrictor in place? Is it not feasible that the restrictor has made some difference or does this only effect the spool up??
Originally posted by chriskaven
The first time you went to stealth i believe you did not have the restrictor in place? Is it not feasible that the restrictor has made some difference or does this only effect the spool up??
The restrictor basically disables N75 (and ECU's control over wastegate) until aroud 3000-3500 RPM by not letting enough air/boost into N75 (and wastegate actuator) to operate the wastegate itself. In the case your turbo spools up quickly it may cause the turbo to overboost (exceed requested boost) and the ECU may actually take back boost.
Finally i've managed to find out why my DV release(d) boost. My turbo was overboosting/overshooting. It means that the delivered boost was higher than requested, ECU held back (opened DV) and caused a huge flat spot (similar to bad restrictor experiences).
I've adjusted on my wastegate (lowered overall boost), so DV seems to stay shut now though my car actally feels pooo. Since i have no VAGCOM (to datalog and match requested/delivered boost), i will have to adjust my wastegate back to "HI" setting ;) in slow increments from day to day to check when will my DV vent boost again. :/ The car is really smooth now, but i miss my kicking low down torque (pulls good in high rpm range though).
Shock XE
glad you seem to have sorted out your problems - those stats seem pretty good now
btw - I was the guy with the S3 getting my ECUs switched around and cruise fitted who took you for a quick spin
cheers
Shock_Xe
30-11-2002, 15:33
Originally posted by Adam S3
Shock XE
glad you seem to have sorted out your problems - those stats seem pretty good now
btw - I was the guy with the S3 getting my ECUs switched around and cruise fitted who took you for a quick spin
cheers
Hi adam, Spoke to rich @ APR and mentioned you. Hows the car??? All ive been doing recently is looking at price's of S3's. Definatly going to be my next car. I was that impressed with yours. Liked your number plate too 'S3 YUM' Excellent. If you decide to sell in the future make sure u gimmie a bell first :)
cheers
mike
p.s. 200bhp doesnt compare with 270bhp and quattro Damn it!!! :)
Mike
glad you liked the S3 so much - it has a bit of a cult following with its drivers as it is so stealthy compared to its TT cousin which gets all the attention.
expensive though so can't match the Cupra for smiles/£
if you are looking at one prices might soften a bit when the new A3 is launched next year (though the new S3 will be a further 12-18 months off I reckon)
and the car is going great thanks - you probably didn't experience it at its best with 3 up and a full tank of fuel !
I'll let you know if I ever think about selling
;) but for the best place for research see www.audi-sport.net
cheers
Adam
Shock_Xe
02-12-2002, 10:50
great thanks, speak to you soon