View Full Version : Intercooler??
I wondered if the leon tdi 150 intercooler would fit the beezer.....
that would be....:cool2:........ or maybe with some adjustments?
deevious
25-11-2002, 12:57
Recently saw an Ibiza with the bumper off and must say that the current IC is rather small, especially compared to the 150Pd version. So fitting the big 'un will be a bit of a squeeze, methinks.
You could also go for an aftermarket Ic, probably sheaper.
yeah I heard that too but maybe with some adjustment on the inside of the bumper the cooler will fit.
I dunno but i'm not gonna try without some good info on this.
Here's a file of a VAG-COM run I did, showing inlet temp vs. speed.
Car is standard engine (AYP) Ibiza 20VT. Would be interested to see similar plots from guys with chipped cars and/or bigger intercoolers.
you would imagine that with more boost your going to be running hotter. I ran 40C on a rolling road on saturday
Yeah, I would expect it to increase with higher boost but it's important IMO, to do this test on the road (using VAG-COM) as unless you've got a wind tunnel, you can't fully simulate the airflow through the intercooler on a RR. The ambient temp. on that day was 13 Degs. C.
I'm thnking of getting a bigger I/C, possibly from Star, but I want to try and get some 'real world' before & after plots. Although it'll probably be me who does them after I've bought it - LOL!
I was comparing you on road figures of bewteen 20-29 to my 40 on a rolling road. ok I got a bigger intercooler in the GT though
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 16:36
VAG-COM on a chipped Ibiza... on real roads
Started @ 24'C and 20 seconds later in 4th gear full throttle was @ 45'C
Stock intercooler.
plots are here for ref> http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/dynoplot-vagcom3.xls
Your plots are amazingly stable and bordering on implausable (how? no temp rise?) Stock boost and no temp rise... Great if true and perfectly sized for stock boost vs intercooler. - not doubting you at all, just reads weird.
regards
Bill
Dormouse
26-11-2002, 18:16
Agree with Bill results...basically you have x amount of ambient still air in a earth type atmosphere at zeroish feet above see level i.e 1 bar. Then pull the same ammount of air though what is in comparison a very small tube, it heats up. i.e gas laws...and gas under pressure heats up....cunnig eh? a certain german / austrian called 'Deisel' invented a process very simelar...
Dor.
Originally posted by vibrio
you would imagine that with more boost your going to be running hotter. I ran 40C on a rolling road on saturday
I take it your a member of SSR and where at AVA then ?
Thought about looking into becoming a member of this club but the one dude I spoke to from it was quite snobbie and said that even allow they are called Scottish Street Racing they dont race on the roads :( !
Thats one for the Trading standards : False advertising lol
Originally posted by ibizacupra
VAG-COM on a chipped Ibiza... on real roads
Started @ 24'C and 20 seconds later in 4th gear full throttle was @ 45'C
Stock intercooler.
Your plots are amazingly stable and bordering on implausable (how? no temp rise?) Stock boost and no temp rise... Great if true and perfectly sized for stock boost vs intercooler. - not doubting you at all, just reads weird.
regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
That plot was from what I call a 'real world' scenario as opposed to a power run. If I tell you that I only went over 4000RPM on the very last 'spike' (where there is a 10 Deg. increase) that may make it clearer? I wanted to see how the stock I/C performed under normal conditions, most people don't or can't use high RPM for extended periods - hence logged Speed rather than RPM vs Temp. I will do a 'power' run at some time to compare 'hard' with normal driving. My temp measurement was Block 004, Channel 4 - is this the correct one for inlet temp at manifold?
Originally posted by Crofter
I take it your a member of SSR and where at AVA then ?
Thought about looking into becoming a member of this club but the one dude I spoke to from it was quite snobbie and said that even allow they are called Scottish Street Racing they dont race on the roads :( !
Thats one for the Trading standards : False advertising lol
yeah member of SS-R. as for snobbie. don't know it's got allsorts in it though. it's free to join
ibizacupra
26-11-2002, 20:54
Originally posted by Glenn
Hi Bill,
That plot was from what I call a 'real world' scenario as opposed to a power run. If I tell you that I only went over 4000RPM on the very last 'spike' (where there is a 10 Deg. increase) that may make it clearer? I wanted to see how the stock I/C performed under normal conditions, most people don't or can't use high RPM for extended periods - hence logged Speed rather than RPM vs Temp. I will do a 'power' run at some time to compare 'hard' with normal driving. My temp measurement was Block 004, Channel 4 - is this the correct one for inlet temp at manifold?
I think so from memory.
I don't have my info to hand unfortunately.
Not a great deal of load then on you run..
One to log next time is temp, boost (actual) and block #120 torque
regards
bill
I was fitting my new exhaust when i noticed the VERY SMALL intercooler on my beezer R.........
It is so small it could be an oil cooler!!
Can't we even try to fit the Audi TT 180 intercooler?
RichardBW
26-11-2002, 22:38
The Ibiza IC is a one off and nothing like the Leon,Golf,TT,etc so none of these will fit without some serious mods to the front bodywork and IC pipework.
I have fitted several IC's in the last few weeks. The outcome looks to be a standard fit IC with larger internals. The front mount idea was cast aside at an early stage due to small amount of space behind the lower front bumper(to fit here would also have meant cutting out a section of the bumper)
These wil be released in the new year for general resale, Hopefully before the RR day at Stealth :D
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Not a great deal of load then on you run..
He, he, he, no I drive like a Grandad on the road - only time I use full throttle is dropping down for A/B road overtakes and on the track, otherwise it's usually no more than 1/2 throttle. Same goes for brakes - if I have to use them hard, it means I've fluffed my anticipation & reading of the road.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
One to log next time is temp, boost (actual) and block #120 torque
regards
bill
I did log #120 - I can mail you the raw data if you like - 70K, about 20mins worth of urban driving?
ibizacupra
27-11-2002, 08:44
Originally posted by Glenn
He, he, he, no I drive like a Grandad on the road - only time I use full throttle is dropping down for A/B road overtakes and on the track, otherwise it's usually no more than 1/2 throttle. Same goes for brakes - if I have to use them hard, it means I've fluffed my anticipation & reading of the road.
I did log #120 - I can mail you the raw data if you like - 70K, about 20mins worth of urban driving?
You sound very sensible mate :D
Not much point sending cruising data to be honest.
100% throttle on power runs yea, but not "Grandad" driving.. :p
regards
Bill
Dormouse
28-11-2002, 17:50
Is there any way of directly attributing increased power / torque if the only attribute you change is the size fo intercooler i.e. reduction in temp of air arrive at engine?
In english, i am simply asking if you could do some runs to look at power delivered vs temp.
Dor.
As I understand it, you don't gain as such, rather you lose less.
http://www.auto-amd.com/technical_2.asp
max_torque
29-11-2002, 08:44
"there is a well known formula for calculating power loss from increase air temp" says the AMD page.
Gosh i wish i knew that formula!
(in reality there is no such formula, however typical tubocharged engines (i have personally tested) lose between 0.6 and 1.4 Nm per degree increase in air charge temperature. A typical plenum temp for performance homologation by the OEM will be between 50 and 40 degC, so you engine should make "book" power at these temps. However the temp at which you certify performance at is dependant upon data demonstrating that the chosen temp is a reasonable one. ie during a wot accel to say 120mph you chose the peak temp and use this. Some manufacturers will slightly bend the rules here by testing car on the coldest possible day (15degC) and throwing a bucket of water through the IC core before the accel!, but this is rare these days.
It is possible to easily calculate the change in air density and hence cylinder air mass from the intake temp, but this is not the whole story. On modern turbo engines the EMS works to a target airflow (called RL on Me7), it will then run sufficent boost to be able to meet this target airflow. (within certain limits obviously). So when the plenum air temp increases the boost pressure will rise to restore the airflow to target, but this will take more turbine work as the compressor will have a bigger pressure ratio, and will have an increase pre compressor temp (lower density air to try to compress). The side effects of increase turbine work are increase exhaust back pressure, which leads to an increase in in-cylinder combusion residuals and increase pumping work. These reduce torque, directly by 1 kpa BMEP per kpa for the back pressure (pumping loss) and indirectly through reduced detonation limit caused by an increased end gas temp from the greater proportion of hot residuals left in the chamber from the last cylce.
The only way to establish the sensitivity of a turbo engine to intake temp is either to dyno run the engine under closely controlled conditons, or to run GT power or similar fluid dynamics simulation model. (that will really need dyno data to establish it's validity first!)
Complicated hey!
(and i've not even mention the fact that the air temp measured in the plenum by the EMS is not the actual air temp in-cylinder because of up heat in the manifold related to the delta T between intake air temp, coolant temp, and cylinder head metal temp)
Dormouse
29-11-2002, 12:23
Yup, clearly the intake temp is not the best indication cos of the inlet manifold being the last thing the air sees before it enters the chamber.
You mentioned that the provided boost by the turbo is regulated due to intake temp, surely then unless there are tollerance stops i.e limits to the variable being used, then the turbo will keep spinning down on a increaseing cooler intake temp. So based upon that theory you will never effectivly get more than 'book' power. becasue the ECU will always be recalculting to keep the boost / temp calculation resultant the same? Seems odd...
Dor.