View Full Version : K04 onto 150/180 bhp Vag engine
Has anyone on here done a K04-023 conversion onto a Vag k03/K03S equipped engine and does it go to similar results as the LCR Bam engine, i.e 270-280bhp? Anyone with a Dyno plot?
K04-023 Ibiza:)
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=107172
Cant see why you wouldn't get the same 270bhp on the lower powered 1.8t engines:shrug:
what car is it for?
selliling mine soon!
HoocH
Octavia i believe and im sure he said he already had a kit off an S3.
hooch, why you selling your setup?
Theorectically you should get a bit more - K03s cars are higher compression than K04 cars.
It's been discussed a few times, routing of charge pipes, inlet manifold and dp are all different, different TIP, so it's quite a big job - so big that you have to wonder if it's worth it. Probably cheap enough to do though.
I wondered about keeping the inlet manifold, getting a single pass FMIC and using an Ibiza (or ibiza style) charge pipe.
Everyone keeps saying that it is such a big job, but from what I have seen the Turbo and manifold is a straight swap, albeit a bit fiddly, I have sorted out a DP / Cat that fits easily ( I think) the charge pipe routing will stay the same and will only require either a short length of Silicone pipe as the turbo outlet is more over to the nearside and possibly an elbow with longer legs to connect to the existing Chargepipe system, I already have a Forge FMIC fitted so thats the charge side taken care of. the only other issues are likely to be the oil / water feed and returns, I have three of them and will only need a new Oil feed, which is a good idea to fit new regardless...only time will tell!!
HarveyGTI
17-03-2007, 12:22
seen this discussed quite a few times as well
with the time and money spent swapping it for a K04 versus the time and money spent for swapping it to a Garret GT28, then of course the Garret is the way to go due to the sheer performance you will get from the garret and prob not alot more money to do
changing the K04 is not exactly a straight job and it makes more sense that if you are going to do all of that work, then why not upgrade to a much bigger turbo and get alot more bang for your buck?
MkIV Turbo
17-03-2007, 12:51
... the charge pipe routing will stay the same and will only require either a short length of Silicone pipe as the turbo outlet is more over to the nearside and possibly an elbow with longer legs to connect to the existing Chargepipe system, I already have a Forge FMIC fitted so thats the charge side taken care of...
I would be cautious with regard to the downpipe as there is a possibility of it making contact with the charge pipe which runs down the side of the engine to the pancake pipe as obviously 210/225 engines have their charge pipe over the top of the engine for this reason. The 3" downpipe will require quite a large bend to come out of the turbo and go down so space may be tight.
seen this discussed quite a few times as well
with the time and money spent swapping it for a K04 versus the time and money spent for swapping it to a Garret GT28, then of course the Garret is the way to go due to the sheer performance you will get from the garret and prob not alot more money to do
changing the K04 is not exactly a straight job and it makes more sense that if you are going to do all of that work, then why not upgrade to a much bigger turbo and get alot more bang for your buck?
Cost will be 1 thing...
How much for a 2nd hand K04 setup (turbo/mani/injectors/piping etc)...£750ish?
How much for a new garret GT28 setup? I have no idea but id imagine even the eliminator kits at 3 times this amount. If going proper BT your speaking 4-5k
GT28 will be laggy compared with K04, will have more grunt but for the £££ i think K04 is a good solution if your not wanting to spend a few £k going proper BT.
280bhp/300lbft from the K04
Internals on this engine good for about 320bhp/320lbft (i think) so its pulling quite close to that.
AMK and BAM a bit more at 350/350 (20mm pins vs 19mm)
Fit an eliminator turbo and you'll always be wondering when a rod is going to let go?
HarveyGTI
17-03-2007, 13:10
Cost will be 1 thing...
How much for a 2nd hand K04 setup (turbo/mani/injectors/piping etc)...£750ish?
How much for a new garret GT28 setup? I have no idea but id imagine even the eliminator kits at 3 times this amount. If going proper BT your speaking 4-5k
GT28 will be laggy compared with K04, will have more grunt but for the £££ i think K04 is a good solution if your not wanting to spend a few £k going proper BT.
280bhp/300lbft from the K04
Internals on this engine good for about 320bhp/320lbft (i think) so its pulling quite close to that.
AMK and BAM a bit more at 350/350 (20mm pins vs 19mm)
Fit an eliminator turbo and you'll always be wondering when a rod is going to let go?
true, and some good comments there indeed
i think what we are both saying is it comes down to one thing: Budget
I would be cautious with regard to the downpipe as there is a possibility of it making contact with the charge pipe which runs down the side of the engine to the pancake pipe as obviously 210/225 engines have their charge pipe over the top of the engine for this reason. The 3" downpipe will require quite a large bend to come out of the turbo and go down so space may be tight.
I think that's the main issue (never having tried it myself of course), DP and original charge pipe.
This is what I really like about SCN, with a subject like this you get a really good technical discussion and som really useful info and help comes out of it, I'm a member of several other forums and for me, SCN always comes up tops...cheers guys:D
The cost of the Garret setups is a lot more than going K04, I don't want somthing laggy, I really like the lowdown pull of the small K0X turbos, I have sourced an LCR turbo, Manifold, Injectors, Oil and Water lines and airbox from an LCR that had only done 4.5K before he went IHI so it's not even run in, for 570 for the lot! and a Maf from Feel ( cheers it arrived yesterday morning)
I have got a TIP for a TT from Ebay for £73 and fitting will cost £330 + mapping so all in all when you take into account I have a low mileage <20K K03s BF DP/Cat to sell along with Manifold, Maf, Forge TIP and a CAI the conversion will be pretty cost effective...I am looking for around the 270 - 300lbs ft mark so this should be perfect oh yes the DP / Cat for the K04 is £300 so all in all it is way off the cost of a GT or IHI conversion, lower powered I know but how often can you use all that power with our over governed roads!!:) :)
Extra/short length in standard charge pipe will just be taken up by a custom silicone pipe just like the way its done in the IHI conversion. Not an obstacle IMO, easy enough for a tuning company to locally produce such a pipe.
Why the need to worry about orientation of inlet mani? Surely has nothing to do with it if keeping original intercooler/charge pipe configuration, or even uprating to an uprated intercooler designed for specific car it wouldn't make a difference.
Not sure about DP though, i would have thought original K04 FWD DP would fit onto manifold and then you would need to do something perhaps down below to get it to mate upto cat pipe if it doesn't do so?
Ive never done or seen the conversion but i wouldn't have thought it would have been any harder than say an IHI conversion on LCR:shrug:
Sounds like an interesting project mate.
How much do you think you'll recoup from your K03s sale along with any other bits you have off K04 kit?
Compare that with the £££ you've spent on K04 kit, fitting and mapping and what approximate price are you looking at for this conversion?
Sub £1000 by any chance??
To me that is worth the work for an upgrade to K04:)
Yep, makes sense when Dave puts it like that. The only issue is that if the K04 DP hits the K03 charge pipe, then you'll have to figure out different routing.
The charge pipe comes up from underneath, into the intercooler thenout and into the TB on the left handed inlet manifold - if you have to charge the stock K03 charge pipe route, there's no room to use an LCR charge pipe with the left handed inlet manifold. That's why I mentioned it.
Two possible solutions though are to change over to a righ handed minlet manifold or to use an ibiza style charge pipe.
TBH, if it is that easy, then it prolly is worth it.
Looking at the routing of the charge pipe on the Octy, ( I dont know if its the same on the Leon Cupra but the charge pipe exits the turbo in an elbow then traverses the top of the engine bay to the offside innerwing then turns downwards so I would have thought that it would be well clear of the Downpipe. The tuner I will be using has done this conversion before on a Golf IV and didn't say that the DP had presented any problems.
I spoke to the guys at derv dr at last weeks ultimate dubs and they told me i would be lookin at around £1500 to fit KO4 on my Fr (05 plate petrol) and that i should be near the 280ish bhp... not something im gonna do but i dont think it sounds like a lot of money for what you get.
as quite a few of you probably know i had an Octy vRS before this one with all the bolt ons bar a new turbo, so I will have the K03s and manifold off this one with less than 20K on the clock and never been remapped, a 2.5" DP/Cat, Forge TIP CAI with Green Cone Filter , and injectors to sell, reckon on that lot making at least £500 to offset against the K04 conversion
Scotty_b
18-03-2007, 01:16
If your doing it yourself then it would be nice and cheap but if your getting a garage to do it you maybe better off with a new k03 housed turbo. You can get k04 turbo and parts dirt cheap, in fact all the bits would cost you less than a new garret turbo id say.
If your doing it yourself then it would be nice and cheap but if your getting a garage to do it you maybe better off with a new k03 housed turbo. You can get k04 turbo and parts dirt cheap, in fact all the bits would cost you less than a new garret turbo id say.
He has already got the K04 setup Scotty, read his posts;)
Your always going to need it remapped and £350 for fitting is f*ck all really, especially when he'll recoup costs from the sale of his K03s.
This conversion for him will cost considerably less than that of a garret eliminator.
£1500 to fit KO4 on my Fr (05 plate petrol) and that i should be near the 280ish bhp... not something im gonna do but i dont think it sounds like a lot of money for what you get.
£1500 labour charges:-o
That's a whopping 30hrs labour at £50 an hour
Or do you mean thats them supplying the K04 setup and mapping it along with the labour charges?
I looked at the GT2X eliminator but from what I have heard they are experiencing some problems in the US with them going bang and they are very laggy, not fully spooling until nearly 3.5K ( 80mph in fifth on the mway) which is something I dont want. In the real world a well setup K04 with 270 bhp and similar torque would probably be quicker than the equivalent GT2x setup.
The GTRS means getting bigger injectors still, lag and getting near the internals maximum means for me it's not worth the risk, plus the GTRS eliminator kit does not really fit all that well
ive got k04 as many know and i would reccomend it! im only changing as im bored and want something to do plus i want more power as always!
HoocH
Are you not pegged at around 320bhp/320lbft hooch due to internals or are you uprating these in your next project?
What turbo you going for? Have you had a look at the K04 hybrids? 300bhp turbos and no need for ripping out mani/dp again. Would keep you in safe limits of internals also and probably 20-25bhp over what you have now.
Or are you going mad and planning something like Bills:)
planning 400bhp! internals, head, cams etc
HoocH
Hooch, did you upgrade your fuel pump to a 4Bar when you did the K04 Conversion?
HarveyGTI
19-03-2007, 08:50
Hooch, did you upgrade your fuel pump to a 4Bar when you did the K04 Conversion?
you will most certainly need to upgrade to the 4bar, if the engine was fitted with a K03/k03S variant
Yes thats what I thought as well, seems a few have put hybrids on but not upgraded the Fuel pump, only the FPR which is probably asking for trouble in my opinion, I believe that you can remove the TT 4 Bar pump from the sender module and it will directly replace the 3 bar in the Octy module
D'Squared
26-03-2007, 21:26
sorry to but into your messages...but if anyone wants a brand new k04....i have one for sale.
Let me know.
Cheers
the turbo, injectors, manifold, TIP shipped from the USA is around 1400 or under.
then fitting and mapping after that.
all brand new stuff.
the fitment issuse arnt too bad, more so people read in to it to much. if your giving it to a place to fit they will do a good job of it.
the turbo, injectors, manifold, TIP shipped from the USA is around 1400 or under.
then fitting and mapping after that.
all brand new stuff.
the fitment issuse arnt too bad, more so people read in to it to much. if your giving it to a place to fit they will do a good job of it.
You've still got oil and coolant feed and return lines (£200), gaskets and bolts (£50) maf (£75) and any other pipework needed to fit
Then you've got VAT and import tax on top of that.
Not as cheap as you think;)
nope, i didnt get hit with tax and you wont if you are prepared to risk lowering the value. i have never had any issues and i have ordered 10s of parcels and no problem touch wood.
all the lines gaskets bolts etc all come with the turbo as part of the turbo kit.
maf and fuel pump really arnt that much extra to source yourself!
it is as cheap as i think as i have done it ;)
all those parts inc fuel pump and maf, plus a eurojet FMIC with new piping all costed me around 2k shipped, i fitted this myself. then there is mapping on top of it lucky for me mapping wasnt much of an issue for me, though it would cost around 500 - 700 for a custom map for any one else.
made 320ish first off with peak temps of the shabby SMIC 80'C, now with the FMIC and a few other tweeks i hope to see 330 and more torque.
not bad on a budget
made 320ish first off with peak temps of the shabby SMIC 80'C, now with the FMIC and a few other tweeks i hope to see 330 and more torque.
not bad on a budget
Evading VAT and import tax may bite you in the arse 1 day as if it does go missing, you'll be significantly out of pocket, ie insured value of £100 to dodge taxes but kit value of £2k :blink: I suppose thats the risk you take;)
What turbo have you got?
GT28 eliminator, yep my risk but in the long run im not our of pocket i have saved so much its untrue.
at the end of the day it is very unlikly it will go missing
also last month had another £1500 of parts delivered tax free. yah a bit of a dodgy game. but i been lucky. and the ods of loosing are so slim.
on the other hand you are looking at around an extra 22% or so on top of the total inc the shipping.so around 220 per 1000 on tax :(
Right, got all the bits now, I am also going to the jacket the turbo and downpipe to keep underbonnet temps down and increase the scavenging effect of the DP. Question for those in the know re Exhaust wrapping is it a/ okay to wrap the manifold or is it going to cause cracking of the std cast iron manifold and b/ can the Cat also be wrapped?
I read somewhere on here that it is a bad idea to wrap a Cast Iron Manifold, the extra heat in the manifold causes it to crack...anyone shed any light on this?
if its ok to ceramic coat it then wrapping isnt much different!
think your worrying too much
ibizacupra
22-04-2007, 18:51
I read somewhere on here that it is a bad idea to wrap a Cast Iron Manifold, the extra heat in the manifold causes it to crack...anyone shed any light on this?
rapid heat cool is what thermally stress fatgues.
cast manifolds by nature of their usual gurth and thickness dont suffer as much heat rise/fall compared to tubular versions.
Keeping heat in reduces under bonnet temps & also flows more
For ~ £220 you could get an exhaust manifold ceramic coated. heat wrap degrades... expect it to be knackered in over a year.
KEF A3 20V T
25-04-2007, 09:10
What fuel pumps you lads using??
I am using an S3/TT 4 Bar Fuel pump with the second pickup connection blocked off and the wiring modified to remove the second level sender unit connection plug removed.
KEF A3 20V T
25-04-2007, 09:34
ok, is the sender for the fuel level? does it work well? i was thinking of using an in tank walbro 255 lph pump, but i think it will be a pig to sort the level sender,
Yes, the fuel pump is the same fitting etc as the 3 bar one but on the 4wd cars the fuel tank straddles the prop shaft so needs a second fuel syphon to drain the other half of the tank and has a separate sender unit that is linked to the main one, you just cut the plug off an re-solder the wire to the main wiring terminals