fuel management system question

[eyco]

hi guy's, does anyone here try to run his 1.8t with motec m4, m48 or have experience with another type of fuel management system ?..

[ibizacupra]

DTA is being used with 20VT motors as is Emerald.
Why do you ask?
regards
Bill

[max_torque]

I've got the Motec M8 system on my'97 beeza.:D

[eyco]

hi bill and max, i'm thinking on a fuel management system for my car, what do you think/recommend??
how the car will run with those ECU's?
currently is there any 20vt ibiza that run with those fuel system?
does it run good with a daily use car?
how it deal with the sensors?
and do thay have map's for the ibiza?

i know i should ask the compeny's those question's but i prefer to hear it from somone that use it on a daily use car..

also in the near future i'm going to upgrade to ATP stage III or IV kit

[ibizacupra]

I don't know of a 20VT that runs on these ECU's, but do know of several 1.8T engined Mk1,2,3 Golfs etc that do.

Some run on Emerald (Dubsport build/converted cars), and some are running on DTA (Stealth Racing converted cars)

Is there no one who could reuse and reprogramme your ECU? to cater for this planned future turbo upgrade? - eg, My own 300bhp IHI conversion uses a VAG (S3) ecu, reprogrammed to suit.

Aftermarket ECU's were used on these conversions to simplify the wiring and immobiliser implications associated with a factory 1.8T transplant where not all parts were available. (loom, clocks, ignition, ecu etc etc)

regards
Bill

[max_torque]

My car runs perfectly on it's M8 ecu, but then it bloody well should as i'm a calibration engineer by trade!

In terms of complexity even the top of the range aftermarket systems are really simple compared to a production ecu, but i still spent the best part of 3 days on a engine dyno to to do the base mapping, and probably another few 100hrs on the road / test track doing drivability / boost control etc. (a calibration program for a BOSCH Me7 turbo application would be 2 years for a team of 5 people!)(inc OBD)

Without wishing to offend people like Emerald, (who offer a good product at an excellent price) most aftermarket systems are very badly calibrated - sure the base map for spark and fuel are not bad (usually with the limits of the exquipment used to calibrate them), but they tend not to spend enough time "rounding the corners" so things like cold start, idle speed control, tip in shuffles etc tend to be crap. (but then again most owners just want to go fast, so to spend money doing these things is not really econmical)

Personnnaly i cannot put up with a car that doesn't start and run perfectly what ever the conditions, seeing people who have 3 post start flare stalls and have to keep the accelerator pressed to maintain a running engine makes me cringe

If you intend to do some of the calibration yourself, i would reckommend the follwoing minimum kit on a turbo engine:

Wide band lambda senor (NTK, Horiba, etc. lambda 0.7 to 1.2)
Pre turbine exhaust gas temp sensor
Plenum pressure gauge
Good pair of ears to listen for detonation!

[ibizacupra]

Originally posted by max_torque
My car runs perfectly on it's M8 ecu, but then it bloody well should as i'm a calibration engineer by trade!

Without wishing to offend people like Emerald, (who offer a good product at an excellent price) most aftermarket systems are very badly calibrated - sure the base map for spark and fuel are not bad (usually with the limits of the exquipment used to calibrate them), but they tend not to spend enough time "rounding the corners" so things like cold start, idle speed control, tip in shuffles etc tend to be crap. (but then again most owners just want to go fast, so to spend money doing these things is not really econmical)


I can't speak from experience of Emerald personally, but there are people running about on 1.8T motors in Mk1,2,3 Golfs.

I do have experience of mapping DTA tho, on atmo 16v engines, and it did take nearly 8 hours starting from scratch to get the map optimised for loads & max power on a chassis dyno. Subsequent on the road trimming and cold start maps etc then took some over several days on and off to refine the mapping and make it a nice and friendly car, thats starts from cold, idles fine etc etc. (This is running with direct to head throttle bodies)
This time investement (and ££) then makes for a nice get ya going map for most subsequent customers... so they don't have to start from a blank map and find the settings from nothing.

Do you mean calibration as in running maps or their firmware calibration? I don't know of these ECU suppliers selling them with predefined maps, only sample guide maps, all of which need mapping to the engine/car in question.

Question is, why does this guy think he needs an aftermarket mappable ECU, when he's already starting with a good factory one to begin with. (IF he is able to get someone to map this ecu to his proposed mods)

Bill

[max_torque]

Theres a big gap however between an aftermarket "mapping" and OEM mapping. On Focus RS for instance base ignition fuel mapping was done every 50 rpm, and at each site lambda was swept in 0.05 lambda steps between the particular limits for each site, and at each of these exhaust lambda sites the spark was swept and logged between MBT (or BLD + 3deg) and MBT - 20 deg. At each site all data (inc cylinder pressure was logged) and then i went back and did coolant / air temp and intake / exhaust back pressure sweeps at 250 rpm intervals - Then the whole thing was repeated on 2 different fuel specs. It generated about 80meg of data, took about a month.

And this was done for each hardware phase - ie concept / protoype / off-tools and production!

(not to mention 1000's of hrs of in-vehicle validation between -35 degC and +40 deg C)

Makes me a bit "mad" when Superchips or whatever come in and "optimise" the calibration in a couple of hrs of rolling road time!

I guess the one advantage of using an aftermarket ECU is it simplifies the amount of work needed, sure you get a reduction in drive quality. As Bill says most aftermarket ECU's are supplied with some sort of base map, but unless you have a really common engine / level of tune (and even then) you're still going to be spinning some rollers / dyno for a good few hrs.

[ibizacupra]

Much finer resolution... on your systems (OE)
I get a 12x14 resoltuion grid and interpolation. :p
it starts, it stops, it goes... Pretty basic but it suit me (simple man)

:)
Bill