Forge FMCL007 - Fast Road Closed Loop Diverter Valve (diaphragm) [Archive] - SEAT Cupra.net

psrob

08-02-2003, 23:20

I'm on my 3rd Forge piston DV now and this one is starting to stick after only being serviced less than 2 months ago. Needless to say I'm a bit pissed off. I know that this is a recognised problem of the piston DV's, ie. getting dry and sticking. This leads to surging and loss of boost and so they need very regular servicing.

I've noticed that Forge do a diaphragm version of the DV007 but don't seem to advertise the fact too much(I wonder why?!).

Anyone know if they are any good, better made than the OEM Bosch ones or how reliable they are??

I'm sure it's a new valve as well?

Anyone??

Cheers

Paul :)

ibizacupra

09-02-2003, 19:48

Originally posted by psrob
I'm on my 3rd Forge piston DV now and this one is starting to stick after only being serviced less than 2 months ago. Needless to say I'm a bit pissed off. I know that this is a recognised problem of the piston DV's, ie. getting dry and sticking. This leads to surging and loss of boost and so they need very regular servicing.

I've noticed that Forge do a diaphragm version of the DV007 but don't seem to advertise the fact too much(I wonder why?!).

Anyone know if they are any good, better made than the OEM Bosch ones or how reliable they are??

I'm sure it's a new valve as well?

Anyone??

Cheers

Paul :)

Serviced?
By whome and with what grease?

Bill

psrob

09-02-2003, 20:31

Don't know what grease, but Awesome did it when I put it on my new R because I asked them to, so they will have done a good job. They also did a pressure test too.

Paul

Shock_Xe

09-02-2003, 21:02

How do i go about serviceing my dv and what grease do i use?

psrob

09-02-2003, 21:05

Details can be downloaded from the Forge website in pdf format.
I think its Mobil grease you use.

Paul

ibizacupra

09-02-2003, 22:22

Synthetic (red) grease.

Bill

psrob

09-02-2003, 22:38

Have you any experience of the diaphragm DV007 Bill?

Paul

FinCupra

10-02-2003, 05:56

Originally posted by psrob
Have you any experience of the diaphragm DV007 Bill?

Paul

Hi Paul!

Get Forge DV-R, it's got 4 springs with different hardness settings + 2 extra diaphragms

ibizacupra

10-02-2003, 08:12

Originally posted by psrob
Have you any experience of the diaphragm DV007 Bill?

Paul

Nope. sorry.
I have only ever used the piston DV.

Never had a problem tho... 23K miles and counting.

Bill

max_torque

10-02-2003, 08:31

Or alternatively, stop messing around with rubbish aftermarket tat, and just refit the BOSCH valve - 120k mile durability, no sticking, and works perfectly as a dump valve!

:p

psrob

10-02-2003, 09:34

Originally posted by max_torque
Or alternatively, stop messing around with rubbish aftermarket tat, and just refit the BOSCH valve - 120k mile durability, no sticking, and works perfectly as a dump valve!

:p

Not in my experience, especially if the boost pressure is raised from a remap!
That's what lead me into getting an aftermarket one in the first place. I went through 3 in my old chipped Cupra with one only lasting 2 weeks!

The Forge one works well, it just sticks occasionally which is a shame.

Paul

FinCupra

10-02-2003, 12:15

Bosch is a piece of crap.. get a Forge DV-R

My Bosch lasted ~5000km.. friend got 2 blown earlier.

psrob

10-02-2003, 13:16

Thanks for the email Fincupra.

Anyone who is interested in the Forge diaphragm DV read this:

http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/720857.phtml

Paul

Cupramax

10-02-2003, 15:03

Not wishing to be pedantic and running along the same lines as Max_torque, I've run 2 Leon Cupra's over 2 years now (both chipped) and have not had to touch the DV's on either. Rob, stick the standard one back on...

ibizacupra

10-02-2003, 15:32

Early Bosch DV's suffered failures.... leaks, split etc...
Their response in comparison to a Forge piston DV was also slower.

Later Bosch ones would likely be more reliable (they would have to for warranty costs alone), but as for speed? Who knows.
Not tried a later plastic Bosch DV myself.

Bill

max_torque

10-02-2003, 16:14

Latest BOSCH valves have steel insert to stiffen diaphram, and i've run one (actually 2 'cause it was a V6) up to 1.6 bar on a race car no probs. (i believe above this pressure at high temps top can be forced off valve!)

as for the time issue - bear in mind that the speed at which something moves is deffined by the forces on it, it's friction, and it's mass, a diaphram valve will be the fastest, cause it weighs nothing, has very little hystersis or friction, and they maximise area by being wavey(primerially to maximise opening travel)

Also, i'd like to see some measured performance data for plenum pressure after a gear change with any dump valve causing a significant difference, i have been able to measure a difference in pressure (and vehicle performance) between no valve and a recirc valve, but not between valves) except the noise.

the biggest change to driveability between DV's will be on slow throttle tip-ins from a fairly closed throttle at high rpm (>3krpm) where plenum will go between a vacuum and boost.

ForgeMotorsport

10-02-2003, 20:07

Any problems or issues we will happily fix .
The DVR is a fast respose valve supplid with alternative springs and spare diaphargms .
Please call if you have a problem or require advice.

Tel 01452 380999:cheers:

psrob

11-02-2003, 17:45

Had a good look at the OEM Bosch one I took off my R and I must say they look a lot sturdier with the metal insert and the diaphragm itself appears a lot stronger (than the old one off my old Cupra.)
It's even got a production date on it of 22/07/02.

I'm going to take the old Forge one off and replace it with the Bosch and try that for now and send it back to Forge, hopefully for a possible replacement, as surging is no better and I am definately loosing a bit of boost now.

Came accross this site which was interesting as they were very keen on the DV006 originally:

http://www.audioimports.com/cars/S3/FDV006.htm

Paul

ibizacupra

11-02-2003, 20:13

I would take that guys opinion with a pinch of salt. He says the DV leaks? Very strange.

There are 1000's of these in service, without any problems.

Bill

ForgeMotorsport

12-02-2003, 14:08

All Forge valves are guaranteed for life and are covered by our no hassle guarntee, we will look after any valve problems.

Sim

12-02-2003, 14:24

Originally posted by ForgeMotorsport
All Forge valves are guaranteed for life and are covered by our no hassle guarntee, we will look after any valve problems.

confirmed ;)

psrob

12-02-2003, 20:19

Took the Forge off and replaced with OEM Bosch one.
On performing the operating test (vaccum test) described on the service page for this valve, the valve is faulty.
Piston is pushed all the way up with a pen and my finger placed over the top nipple creating a seal. Pen is removed and piston just goes back down down, even though finger is still in place( piston should stay up due to vaccum). It did this repeatedly, just working correctly twice out of 12 tests. Therefore I can only assume the seal is not air tight or not seating properly somehow.
When I opened it and had a look inside I could'nt see anything obvious. I smoothed the grease out thinly but it still did it when I reassembled it.

Since fitting the Bosch DV, all surging has gone, pickup is quicker and there is no loss of power, doubly confirming the valve is faulty. Exactly the same problem I think I had on my other 2.
It is only 7 months old and I have done 6000 miles on it.

Being fair though, in driving, I must admit the Bosch is nowhere near as smooth as the Forge when it is working properly. I prefered the sound of the Forge too. Also I still have my doubts about the Bosch DV reliability since I am using a higher boost.

Sending the DV006 back to Forge tomorrow and hopefully I can get some kind of replacement sorted.

Paul

ibizacupra

12-02-2003, 20:25

Originally posted by psrob
Sending the DV006 back to Forge tomorrow and hopefully I can get some kind of replacement sorted.

Paul

My preference these days is the 007P. Smaller more compact unit.

Forge stand by their products.. You will be sorted no problemo. :)

Bill

psrob

12-02-2003, 20:44

A DV007 is what I am hoping I can change it to, as I've had enough of the DV006 to be honest.

Not sure whether to get a piston version again (of the 007) or try the diaphragm version of the DV007 though.

Paul

psrob

15-02-2003, 17:54

Faulty DV sorted by Forge just like you said Bill.
No problems at all, excellent customer service and the valve arrived the day after I sent mine back.

I can honestly say I really missed mt Forge DV. The power delivery with the Bosch after running a Forge for a while is awful in comparison. Gone was the crisp throttle response and smooth pickup.
I was suprised to realise that the Bosch DV was on its way out after only a few days on my REVO'd R. I can only assume it just can't handle the increased boost of the new REVO remap, which I think was the factor in making my Forge go when it wasn't 100%.

Since yesterday I noticed after a few good runs that power was well down and I had a 'honking' noise on acceleration. Something that I had read about but never experienced on a Bosch DV. No surging just piss poor power and honking. The Forge when it was on its way out seemed to still clamp well and give full power, but it just did'nt do it all the time and so gave surging. I thought the new Bosch valves were better made, but maybe they are for normal boost levels. It was ok the first day I fitted it but it certainly did'nt last!I don't think the chamber space when the valve is lifted in the Bosch is enough for higher boost applications either, from having a good look at it, maybe leading to some backpressure on the turbo.

I decided to go for another DV006 because I really liked it when it was working well. The larger chamber is better suited to high boost applications and also I feel it is what allows the unwanted boost to flow more freely. More of a nice sound too.

Since refitting the exchanged DV006, power is back, along with crispness and smoothness. Excellent. I just hope this is a good one and lasts.

Paul :)

LEO LION R

01-05-2003, 16:25

So how did you get from the replaced DV006 to a DVR then, maybe it's in another thread ?

Were they as easy oy fit as it says, and were all parts required included in the suppkied kit ?

:cheers:

LEO LION R

02-05-2003, 13:18

and in your opinion which has been the best (as in smoothest) ?

:cheers:

Cupramax

02-05-2003, 13:29

And also can you explain the direct route that it took from the Forge factory via the dealer to your house and the exact time you fitted it..... :rolleyes:

sorry Leo, I couldn't resist that; ;)

Cupramax has left the building :redface:

psrob

03-05-2003, 09:41

All parts come in the kit. It is very easy to fit.
It is also easy to open up as it is screw fitting.
It is quiet in operation and by far the best valve I have bought. Not as smooth as the DV006 when it worked properly, but like I said all surging and 'hesitating' are gone. It also leaks no boost.
Much quicker than the DV006 in operation too

Paul

nfot

04-05-2003, 03:46

I had my DV006 serviced lately, like FORGE suggests, just to find out that it wasn't operating correctly. I could feel that when shifting gears fast, there was a small hesitation. After emailing FORGE they mailed me a new piston (0.2 mm wider) 2 new O'rings and some red grease. I placed the the new parts to the 006 body and voila!!! No hesitations and smoother engine operation. FORGE does honor their lifetime warranty, especially important to me, since I live in GREECE.

:cheers:

LEO LION R

04-05-2003, 11:44

Cheers thanks for the replies, well all except Cupramax's ;) (the kippers gonna get you)

Unfortunately it seems like there's no way of you finding out which one (006 or DVR )is better suited to a chipped R, since the fix for the 006 hasn't been tried by the same driver yet.

I guess both are good, but the DVR will maybe handle the extra boost better.

:cheers:

psrob

04-05-2003, 15:25

The DV006 will handle the extra boost ok, but it tends to dry out and require constant frequent servicing(new rings, grease, piston reshaping or replacing ). Not a problem if you are willing to do that.
I tried several DV006's and they all started sticking and loosing boost. A couple after not much time at all either. The rings also failed on one meaning it was'nt creating a vaccum.
If I had a choice, I would maybe prefer a DV006. One that works ok that is ;)

At least I know were I am with the DVR, and I won't be loosing any valuable boost like I did with my DV006's.

Dormouse

04-05-2003, 16:00

All Forge valves are guaranteed for life and are covered by our no hassle guarntee, we will look after any valve problems.

Nice to know.

However, another question, the dv007 differs from the dv006 in more than just the boltdown / screwdown method of fixing the two cylinders together. I have noticed quite a difference in spring constant between the two.

Any comments or reasoning behind the change and the effects?

Cheers

Dor.

LEO LION R

04-05-2003, 19:22

So does the diaphragm need servicing or replacing at 5000 mile intervals, i'm not bothered about servicing it, just wondering if i will need to order up replacement diaphragms every 4 months ?

:cheers:

psrob

04-05-2003, 21:44

It is advised to inspect the diaphragms at about 5k miles, however this is just a precaution and they should last easily 10k miles, especially if the valve is fitted in the reoriented position as recommended(base of the valve on turbo side) which prolongs the life of the diaphragm. Since the Forge DVR comes with one diaphragm fitted and 2 spares they should last you a while. Replacements are only cheap and can be ordered from Forge.

Paul

LEO LION R

05-05-2003, 08:44

magic, thanks for that.

Lastly did ti come with all necessary fitting parts for the R, or did you have to get a fitting kit as well ?

:cheers:

psrob

05-05-2003, 10:14

All parts including 3 strength springs included with fitting instructions. Take a look at the Forge site for all the info.

Paul

LEO LION R

05-05-2003, 10:23

Thanks again, i have looked at their site, but me being a faffer i like to check with people who have had it already - just ot make sure ;)

Besides it hasn't arrived yet, and no post on a bank holiday - so maybe tomorrow ?

:cheers:

ibizacupra

05-05-2003, 18:59

Originally posted by Dormouse
Nice to know.

However, another question, the dv007 differs from the dv006 in more than just the boltdown / screwdown method of fixing the two cylinders together. I have noticed quite a difference in spring constant between the two.

Any comments or reasoning behind the change and the effects?

Cheers

Dor.

007 has lighter spring than 006.
Reason.... 007 has smaller piston of lower mass, so no need for stronger spring. (I asked this question of them a while back)

Bill

Dormouse

05-05-2003, 19:06

I know, you told me when i asked you at Curby....my memory is what it used....

Blancmange....Hello?

Dor.

LEO LION R

08-05-2003, 11:15

psrob ;

did you fit it in the "re-orientated" direction as Forge recomend to preserve the diaphragm ?

:cheers:

P.S. I can't see anything on their site about servicing the DV

psrob

08-05-2003, 13:58

Originally posted by LEO LION R
psrob ;

did you fit it in the "re-orientated" direction as Forge recomend to preserve the diaphragm ?

:cheers:

P.S. I can't see anything on their site about servicing the DV

Yes Leo,

My valve is fitted in the reorientated position which preserves the life of the diaphragm. No problem at all. A lot of turbo rally/race cars use this orientation as it is quicker still - the turbo pressure helping to open the valve even more quickly. Some people don't like this position as it is supposed to be a bit more noisy when dumping the air but I think it is very quiet in operation, much more so than the piston valves.
Use the yellow spring for your R or maybe start with the green softer spring to start as you are running normal boost levels. There is nothing on the Forge site about servicing because you don't need to service it. If you speak to Forge however, they will recommend what I said about when to replace the diaphragm.

I don't know whether they have changed the instructions yet that come with the valve, but they had made a mistake regarding the colour of the different strength springs. To clarify just incase, green is the softest strength, yellow the mid strength and blue the strongest.

Paul

LEO LION R

08-05-2003, 14:03

Thanks, the green and yellow seem almost identical :confused: but i take it they are different.

Green it is then, did you put any synthetic red grease on the diaphragm before installing it, or just as it came from Forge ?

Looks like it would be difficult to re-orientate it with the narrow valve at the top staying at the top, or did you just force the hoses around slightly to make it work ?

:cheers:

P.S. so much for the last question ;) ta much

psrob

08-05-2003, 17:18

No need for any grease.
If you compress the yellow and green you will feel that they are different with green being softer.
It fits in easily, you just need to move the vaccum pipe over slightly but it will reach. If you want I'll try and post a picture once I get some time.

Paul

LEO LION R

08-05-2003, 21:02

I'd be gratefull if you could, as i don't want to muck this up. So the longest arm on it goes down vertically to the turbo, and the short one horizontally to the left (if you are looking at it from the front of the car), with the small valve on the horzintal too (instead of vertically as is with OEM) ?

there is a little grease inside the screw fitting which is also on the edge of the diaphragm already, should i clean it off ?

So no grease just visual check and clean every 5000 miles - easy peasy ;)

Thanks for the help

:cheers:

psrob

10-05-2003, 16:22

Here is the pic as promised

Paul

LEO LION R

10-05-2003, 17:49

Thanks very much, just managed to work out which way round it is ;)

I take it you added the spacer yourself.

Will get mine done tomorrow hopefully, depends on weather.

:cheers:

psrob

10-05-2003, 19:37

Spacer :confused:

LEO LION R

11-05-2003, 17:50

I didn't get the chance to change it today, but did get a good look at the area, i see the spacer is already there (see pic) and i was wondering if you managed to re-use the original top (narrowest diameter) clamp ? as i only received a 25-35mm jubileee clip from Forge, and have a 18-25mm dia obne spare but i think it needs to be 15mm max ?

I think the hardest part is going to be getting in there to reach the existing square ended jubilee clip at the base, other than that it should be straight forward.

Thanks again.

psrob

11-05-2003, 20:53

Leo,

I have'nt fitted the spacer - its as factory fitted.
The connector you point out is not disconnected at all!
The cable actually runs down around the underneath of the valve - it's just you can't really see it in the photo. Its ok and there is plenty of slack in it although it is a bit more of a squash than if the valve is put in the normal position. The connector just rests nicely on the valve.

Don't bother with a clip for the top vaccum pipe, just use a small cable tie - it's just as good.

Paul
:)

LEO LION R

11-05-2003, 22:19

Cheers as i said in the pic i noticed you had not added it as the spacer is already there.

To get a little more technical what does each openign actuall do, the way you have it connected up. ?

The small diameter (from engine) ?

The short pipe out side (now down to turbo)

The long pipe out bottom (now side from engine)

There must be a lot of pressure in there to make that diphragm move even a little.

If it shut most of the time, at what stage does it open ?

:cheers: