View Full Version : RR day the diesel story
Fen and I both went and were tested back to back. We both caused great clouds of smoke and much coughing from the audiance. But the results are as follows
Rage : 179.4BHP and 299.9lb/ft
RB5 : 183BHP and 306lb/ft
Great day out.
Damn cold though.
Very impressive results, are you both using the same software in your ECU's?
It's great to know when i get bored of the standard tune, another 50HP is easily and cheaply available.
Harvey..
smoke:eek: 180hp:eek:
Excellent results!:D :D.
Your both running APR software, right?
I hope i get +50hp as well. That would me 200hp!!!:D :D
Nice results guys.
Lots of smoke?
LEO LION R
09-02-2003, 19:08
WOW 180/300 - proves that it does what it says on the tin
Not so good carcionogenic smoke :eek: ( no particulate traps on Ibiza yet? - why nor SEAT ? )
:cheers:
I've only heard of particle traps on cars from the PSA group.
The garage was noticably smokier after our runs and there was a huge black spot on the concrete.
Yes we *were* both running the same software. I'll let RB5 fill you in on what happened to his.
LEO LION R
09-02-2003, 19:40
I'll let RB5 fill you in on what happened to his
Instantly sounds ominous :eek:
prc ; I think the 406 coupe is one of the first to get them as standard.
:cheers:
went out in Fen's 'after' and it was still very rapid - boy did I grin
I think 300lb/ft would probably start to scare me.
A part of the APR / Revo split was a free upgrade to the Revo code for existing cuspomers; basically the same as the APR code (it was written by Revo programmers) but with switchability built in. Today was the obvious time for Rage & I to have our upgrade as Revo were there.
My car went first and Mitch had problems getting the code to flash, to the point that we had to give up and see what code the ECU wanted to run. Simon (wisely) didn't let them try his.
At first it appeared to be the standard code (and Mitch was going to come to me to fix it on Thursday - pretty good customer service IMO), but 10 miles or so into my trip home it started to feel a bit quicker than standard and by the A34 it was as good as ever. By the time I got on the A303 and started 'giving it some' it was going better than ever. I can only assume that it is running the Revo code and that the ECU had to adapt to my car, fuel and driving style after a reset.
Anyway I'm a happy bunny, especially as I was the only car to break the 300lb/ft barrier (OK, Simon was 299.9;) ), including Bill's monster and Jabba's 344BHP blue missile. I've rounded the figure in my siggy up, but I posted 183.6 and 306.7 IIRC - printout is in the car
I can't wait until I've got more miles on the clock. I'm also seriously considering an exhaust as well. I think that should even the field a bit.
On a slightly different note
The journey home was gooood I held my own against Nobbers Curpra R beezer he started to really pull away from me @ around 120mph when my response dropped rapidly and we were fast aproaching a roundabout.
edit : as for 299.9 I blame the rollers. I was easy 300.
I coulda been a contender on the way there if it hadn't been for that pesky 20VT holding me up..... (sorry Jimmyboy).
He disappeared out of my rear view mirror fairly early on. ;)
I just can't wait to get my car done...
I couldn't believe how much I was backing off behind him when we pulled out of the layby; I thought maybe he wasn't trying either at the time...
Originally posted by prc
I just can't wait to get my car done...
Start sleeping with a coathanger in your mouth; it'll stretch so the permanent grin won't be so painful when you get your ECU back...:D
when we got there and he said he was going flat out I couldn't help but chuckle
Originally posted by RB5
Start sleeping with a coathanger in your mouth; it'll stretch so the permanent grin won't be so painful when you get your ECU back...:D
LOL:D
Oooohhhh, I must get mine RR'd some time. Sounds like you guys had a real good day at Stealth. It's a pity it's a little too far away for me but After what sounds like a pretty successful day maybe a northern RR day could be on the cards. I may look into it when I have some time.
Glad to hear our cars more than hold their own against the cupra boys.
:D :D :D
Originally posted by aceman
Oooohhhh, I must get mine RR'd some time. Sounds like you guys had a real good day at Stealth. It's a pity it's a little too far away for me but After what sounds like a pretty successful day maybe a northern RR day could be on the cards. I may look into it when I have some time.
Glad to hear our cars more than hold their own against the cupra boys.
:D :D :D
No excuses Ace, I got up at 5am, got home at 8pm and necked a whole tank of diesel doing 450 miles (worst economy yet, must have been that convoy at 70 and a bit ;) )
Just thought it my be worth pointing out Rage's car has 6,500 on the clock, mine 19,500 (and serviced yesterday), so probably that's where the difference comes from.
Hey just wondering if you guys are worried about the gear box? >300ft/lb torque could stress it a bit or do you think it is within the safety margins?
Harvey
Stealth said to me they'd do an output of the Dyno plot on disk or something for importing into Excel (CSV maybe) to make your own pretty graph from.
Anyone get one?
I've done 1250 miles now and fancy a trip to Stealth to see what standard power is, although a few more miles needed I think.
Originally posted by Harvey
Hey just wondering if you guys are worried about the gear box? >300ft/lb torque could stress it a bit or do you think it is within the safety margins?
Harvey
It vibrates a bit in 6th if you floor it at 2k rpm. We'll see how it goes...
Originally posted by Chri5B
Stealth said to me they'd do an output of the Dyno plot on disk or something for importing into Excel (CSV maybe) to make your own pretty graph from.
Anyone get one?
I've done 1250 miles now and fancy a trip to Stealth to see what standard power is, although a few more miles needed I think.
Didn't know that... probably too late now, unless they keep the data (unlikely IMHO).
harvey : yes very worried about the gearbox
Originally posted by Rage
harvey : yes very worried about the gearbox
Obvoiusly I have been looking at the chips / software available and wondered if a chip that maxed at say 260ft/lb torque and still managed 180hp would be best...does anyone do anything like that?
Oh and all this talk of chipping and only having a short test drive, is anyone happy witht he standard car?? :-)
Harvey.
Same here but considering at 2K we are doing 80mph and 300lbft is trying strip what must be the weakest cog in the box it's best keeping it a bit conservative although you can't help yourself sometimes can you ;)
I suppose it's a lame excuse Fen but the wife would have been even more upset with me today if I had gone, spent most of it rebuilding my Fathers PC after he went giddy at the computer fair this morning and she's still moaning now !
I think the 'box will take it.
Does anyone here have a standard car? DveP & Mikiew have disappered and Chris is just running in...
I found its much better to drop into 5th to get 80 + mph and cruise in sixth if possible. I'm trying to be gentle with it ( * smirk, grin, lol, *)
Well I'll have one in 2 weeks and 5 days 11 hours!!!
What hp does thae standard have, I have seen Dyno plots of about 143hp?
Harvey..
My thoughts after 1250:
It's pretty quick as standard. My old 206GTi had 130bhp and 130ish torque, so it feels quicker. Thought I was going to get chance to hassle one last week but they turned off before we could drag up a hill.
It's hard not trying to be Mr Lead Footed. My 206 averaged 24MPG in 12 months! :D
I wonder if APR could do a map to reduce the torque when you're in 6th?
I was more than happy with the standard car but the temptation just before christmas was too much. You have to remember Fen (RB5) came from a Scooby so he must have been missing it a bit after a couple of days ! ;)
Originally posted by aceman
Same here but considering at 2K we are doing 80mph and 300lbft is trying strip what must be the weakest cog in the box
5th and 6th are fitted in the shaft end and VERY close to the casing so pretty tough to get them wagglin :)
plus @ 80 mph you are already rolling
most stress is on take off i bet
don't wory about the gearbox , it's the clutch you wanna keep an eye on
iv'e seen std 90bhp burnt @ 500 miles before now (was put down to fitting contamination) but STILL seen quite a few TDi clutches changed :(:(
join us in the chat room as its more real-time
irc quakenet #seatcupra.net
I think APR posted a plot of a before of their development car on here.
I don't cut my 'box any slack and I've done 12,500 on the chip now, the bulk of that in 6th. I'm sure the 'box's life is being shortened, but I think it'll last as long as I need it to ;)
Harvey, I pass Gloucester fairly often, if you want to be shown why you need 300lb/ft. same goes for you Chris, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods...
In fact that goes for anyone; I get around the country a bit and it's nice to go for a beer and talk cars rather than sit in an hotel room all Billy-no-mates.
Originally posted by Rage
join us in the chat room as its more real-time
irc quakenet #seatcupra.net
I think I'd better join my missus in bed...
Originally posted by RB5
Harvey, I pass Gloucester fairly often, if you want to be shown why to need 300lb/ft. same goes for you Chris, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods...
Cheers Fen - My office is sub 10 mins from J16 M6 (assuming I'm in it!) if you get up this way. If not, see where my work travels take me in the next month or so...
Originally posted by Chri5B
Cheers Fen - My office is sub 10 mins from J16 M6 (assuming I'm in it!) if you get up this way. If not, see where my work travels take me in the next month or so...
this week I'm in Somerset (and I can sleep in my own bed every night :) ). I have some work coming up in Rochdale / Oldham etc. soon. I'd be prepared to drive a bit south of an evening to meet up.
We hve a customer in Crewe, but I don't know of anything pending for them.
It would be nice to meet up if your ever in the Leeds/Wakefield area Fen.
Barnsley close enough? I've got a day up there in a few weeks.
Nice figures gents :cool:
I'm sure the 6-speed is rated at 300lbs.ft (before you add any redundancy factor that they design in). You should be fine.
If you're getting vibration around 2000rpm I expect it's the flywheel effect.
Current VAG TDI's have a 2-part flywheel with the main mass de-coupled from the drive with springs. This dampens the compression "knock" and gives you a far smoother engine than diesels of old.
picture of a similar 2-piece flywheel (http://www.sachs.de/owx_medien/8/336.jpg)
A bit like a big clutch drive plate.....
The downside is that the springs are tuned. Biiig torque increases can cause the flywheel to go into noticeable harmonic oscillation ~ it does this already but the oscillations aren't big enough in std tune to be felt.
This is why you'll feel vibration around 2000rpm, but I'd expect your dyno's to show peak torque rpm higher up the rev range than this.
The 110 engine apparently does this at approx 235lbs.ft torque.
If it's bad I'm sure revo can turn the wick down slightly for this specific engine rpm, and leave the same for the rest of the rev range.
:)
Originally posted by Harvey
Obvoiusly I have been looking at the chips / software available and wondered if a chip that maxed at say 260ft/lb torque and still managed 180hp would be best...does anyone do anything like that?
Oh and all this talk of chipping and only having a short test drive, is anyone happy witht he standard car?? :-)
Harvey.
Jabba should be able to do ths for you. Most re-mappers can tailor their 'chips' for your customer requirements.
Originally posted by mik
Nice figures gents :cool:
I'm sure the 6-speed is rated at 300lbs.ft (before you add any redundancy factor that they design in). You should be fine.
If you're getting vibration around 2000rpm I expect it's the flywheel effect.
Current VAG TDI's have a 2-part flywheel with the main mass de-coupled from the drive with springs. This dampens the compression "knock" and gives you a far smoother engine than diesels of old.
picture of a similar 2-piece flywheel (http://www.sachs.de/owx_medien/8/336.jpg)
A bit like a big clutch drive plate.....
The downside is that the springs are tuned. Biiig torque increases can cause the flywheel to go into noticeable harmonic oscillation ~ it does this already but the oscillations aren't big enough in std tune to be felt.
This is why you'll feel vibration around 2000rpm, but I'd expect your dyno's to show peak torque rpm higher up the rev range than this.
The 110 engine apparently does this at approx 235lbs.ft torque.
If it's bad I'm sure revo can turn the wick down slightly for this specific engine rpm, and leave the same for the rest of the rev range.
:)
Turn down the wick: No chance! Mine holds the crown of CupraNET torquemeister and it's staying that way until somebody takes it with a higher figure...
I think there's some mileage in the flywheel thing, especially based on Flapper's comment that suggests the internals are unlikely to be able to resonate.
Those thinking of getting a Revo chip (or worried about the one you already have, remember this:
1. Mine is putting out the most torque yet tested :D :D :D
2. I don't back off for Nancy stuff like transmission vibes
3. I do 1,000 miles a week.
If mine hasn't gone bang, your isn't likely to...
Gleistung
10-02-2003, 10:07
Just 2 questions:
- At what rpm does power and torque peak ?
- Any chance of a scanned dynolot?
The Ibizaīs gearbox will complaining and youīll feel vibrations on full load at low revs (2000-2500RPM), especially on higher gears if you exceed ~300ft-lbs of torque. On the long run itīll affect transmission relaibility and also the motor mounts, but I doubt if something actually breaks..
Our developed software stages (stage I/II - ~170/185bhp) for the Ibiza TDI130 wonīt reach 300ft-lbs figure in order to avoid this kind of symptom/problem, but itīs our policy to ensure maximum reliability in the medium/long term as we could easly (and have done so) reach impressive figures on this engine like +190bhp/320ft-lbs.
My advice is to avoid full load on higher gears (4th,5th,6th) at anything less than 2500RPM. ;)
If you comply to this "rule" the vibration problem wonīt get worse or start making your clutch slip.
The other solution is update (or downgrade) the software and reduce a tad bit of torque (fuelling mainly), while maintaining near bhp levels.
Anyway Congrats for the results! :cheers:
Originally posted by RB5
Turn down the wick: No chance! Mine holds the crown of CupraNET torquemeister and it's staying that way until somebody takes it with a higher figure...
Fen slipped the revo ring onto his finger and suddenly...... ! :eek:
;)
Look at your dyno trace & see where it's developing 307lbs.ft ~ I would guess it's higher up the rev range.
If it is at 2800rpm for example, revo will be able to back off the boost by 0.1bar or so between 1800-2200rpm to get rid of the vibration, but keep the optimum boost throughout the rest of the rev range. You'll be able to retain your torque crown (my precious ;) )
Not sure if "judder" will do any damage long term (?) If you're happy to live with it....don't bother yer 4rse :)
Peak torque is about 2,400, but it's producing 'shed loads' (I believe that's the correct technical term?) from 1,900. The vibration is about 2,000 - 2,500... I'd post a scan of my trace, but MarkP is on the case already.
Based on Gleistung's comments in another thread, maybe harder engine / 'box mounts would help.
Those people talking about redcuing boost are just ticksy and jealous. We're keeping our precious and that's that...
Originally posted by RB5
Those people talking about redcuing boost are just ticksy and jealous. We're keeping our precious and that's that...
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/scared.gif
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/scared.gif
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/scared.gif
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/scared.gif
Originally posted by Chri5B
Cheers Fen - My office is sub 10 mins from J16 M6 (assuming I'm in it!) if you get up this way. If not, see where my work travels take me in the next month or so...
Well, you could knock me over with a feather...
I'm only doing 2 days in Crewe next week. I'll be staying over there on the night of the 18th. Do I see a plan coming together Chris (and anyone else local-ish)?
peak torque is 2453 in mine and its great. I'm a little worried about gearbox reliability but as long as it lasts 3 years I don't care. I can play with the big boys in their 20VT cupra R beezers and give them something to think about as I stay with them all the way to 120mph. and as Fen said its our precious and we likes it nasty talk of turning it down they wants it they does. keep their theiving handsies away.
Originally posted by Rage
its our precious and we likes it nasty talk of turning it down they wants it they does. keep their theiving handsies away.
...Gollom couldn't have put it better themselves :D
a couple of pics of the car on the rollers.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/x_entity/RRday_0028.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/x_entity/RRday_0029.jpg
Originally posted by RB5
Well, you could knock me over with a feather...
I'm only doing 2 days in Crewe next week. I'll be staying over there on the night of the 18th. Do I see a plan coming together Chris (and anyone else local-ish)?
Erm, that's kinda spooky! Looks to good to me right now.
Ecklad lives round here too but works in Leeds, I'll see if he's about during the week.
OK. Anyone else, next Tuesday M6 J16 ish area?
I am still here - although actually busy working for a change.
My car is standard and not getting used a great deal since change of job. Might consider a chip when my insurance is renewed in May. I will just sit on the side lines as one of the few standard oil burners.
Originally posted by RB5
I think APR posted a plot of a before of their development car on here.
I don't cut my 'box any slack and I've done 12,500 on the chip now, the bulk of that in 6th. I'm sure the 'box's life is being shortened, but I think it'll last as long as I need it to ;)
Harvey, I pass Gloucester fairly often, if you want to be shown why you need 300lb/ft. same goes for you Chris, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods...
In fact that goes for anyone; I get around the country a bit and it's nice to go for a beer and talk cars rather than sit in an hotel room all Billy-no-mates.
Hey would love to see what >300ft/lb feels like, when your next in the area let me know :D
Harvey..
According to my schedule at the mo' I'll be heading south on the M5 on the evenings 19th, 27th Feb, 6th, 13th, 20th March. Take your shovel...
so is this vibration that you describe what I am 'hearing' at about 2000rpm? I dont particularly feel any vibration, but if I put the pedal to the floor going through 1900-2000 rpm in 2nd gear or above then I get a real 'growl' from the engine. It disappears after about 2200 rpm.
Also, one of you mentioned having trouble getting your software switching updated from Revo - do you mean you have SPS now, or some other means of switching?
cheers
Dave.
I think the growl you have is the same thing. Maybe mine is getting worse but I kinda think I can feel the growl very slightly nowadays.
Revo will only be doing SPS1 for diesels (at least for now). I was getting the program but not the switching module. Maybe i have it now, maybe I don't :confused:
Originally posted by RB5
Turn down the wick: No chance! Mine holds the crown of CupraNET torquemeister and it's staying that way until somebody takes it with a higher figure...
I'll post back in a week or two..;)
Originally posted by prc
I'll post back in a week or two..;)
erm, UK cars only.... ;)
Looks like I need to bask in the glory while I can...
The target has been set high but its not unreachable. I'm only an exhaust and an induction kit away. Or a few more miles.
...but anything you can do I can do too ;)
Originally posted by RB5
erm, UK cars only.... ;)
Looks like I need to bask in the glory while I can...
LOL:D
From my understanding though, i'll get more or less the same amount of torque, just a few extra horses.
Originally posted by Rage
The target has been set high but its not unreachable. I'm only an exhaust and an induction kit away. Or a few more miles.
Simon,
You definitely need some more miles to loosen it up a bit. IMO the exhaust will definitely help, the induction kit I'm not sure about. You might be able to get some more using the SAMCO hoses as well, since the OE hoses will stretch alot more, causing some loss in hp.
Paulo,
I can cope with you having more horses; I've got no chance of being the most powerful. I do like being the toquiest tho...
Simon,
I'm ordering a panel filter from Bill as we speak...
Originally posted by RB5
I'm ordering a panel filter from Bill as we speak...
I'm still debating the panel filter idea. Had it in the beeza tdi, but still not sure about the toledo..
Got mine ordered as well.
Fen, Let me know nearer the date when you'r up Barnsley way. It's only 10-15 mins away for me and we can have drink (coke) and a chinwag.
All this torque :p of reducing power what is the world coming to, it would feel like cutting my left arm off. :eek:
Provisionally it would be 6th March.
A Thursday ? sounds OK to me, let me know more details nearer the time.
ibizacupra
10-02-2003, 21:53
Can you guys remind me by email who wants wot...
I think I am getting these cars mixed up...
Mk3 Tdi, Mk4 Tdi 130 etc etc.
please email me at bill@badger5.co.uk
many thanks
Bill
Originally posted by aceman
A Thursday ? sounds OK to me, let me know more details nearer the time.
I'm doing the work on the Friday. I'll be out of Yorkshire like my arse is on fire as soon as I'm done (nothing against Yorkshire, it just isn't home), so it has to be the night before.
Bill,
I'll fax my card details aand confirm what I need tomorrow.
Bill
Green part number:
P950369
For :
1.9 TDi 130hp '02-on
Type:
Panel
Length/Height:
210/232
Width:
217/125
ID:
n/a
Cost
Ģ36.95
Originally posted by Chri5B
Erm, that's kinda spooky! Looks to good to me right now.
Ecklad lives round here too but works in Leeds, I'll see if he's about during the week.
Too good to be true I'm afraid. Crewe is now being done by someone else so I can do a new server install in Rotherham. Any good to you Aceman?
So what dates are we looking at now Fen ? Rotherham isn't too bad 30 mins or so away.
Let me know. Cheers,
ibizacupra
11-02-2003, 21:46
Filters on order chaps :)
regards
Bill
Originally posted by aceman
So what dates are we looking at now Fen ? Rotherham isn't too bad 30 mins or so away.
Let me know. Cheers,
Weds or Thurs night next week, Ace
Sound, PM me with details when you have finalised things.