View Full Version : Ibiza 20VT Forge Intercooler-details/piccies
ibizacupra
11-02-2003, 17:12
Hello
Here is the Forge upgraded replacement intercooler for the 20VT Ibiza.
Core is slightly deeper, is all aluminium construction (better heat sinking abilities) and has a higher flowing core.
Std core for ref:
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/std-core-construction.jpg
Forge core:
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/forge-core-construction.jpg
Std vs stock:
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/forge-intercooler-vs-stock.jpg
Std vs stock:
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/forge-intercooler-vs-stock2.jpg
Airflow is definately increased on my own 325bhp motor....
RR @ stealth showed a pretty damned good control on induction temps, with a start figure of 27'C and and peak temp of 47'C
Std intercooled, chipped cars were into the high 50'C-60'C zone... which is really bad for power. Wait until the summer and you will feel the -ve side of a stock intercooler running higher boost.
It is small, compact, fits where the std one does and seems to be a good improvement.
Back on the dyno @ Jabba this week to make use of this extra flow and temp capacity I now have...
regards
Bill
Cuprasport2000
11-02-2003, 18:13
Originally posted by ibizacupra
on my own 325bhp motor....
show off :(
C2K :D
ibizacupra
11-02-2003, 20:06
;)
LoL
Sorry...
Just think tho if this little intercooler can flow the qty air the IHI produces and keep it cooler than stock, its got to flow better than stock.
325bhp from this side mounted intercooler.
Seeing is believing.
Compact but works well.
Bill
It looks good, but is it not possible to get a much bigger intercooler mounted at the front? I know space is tight but there must be some room somewhere. Or maybe two of the smaller intercoolers?
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
11-02-2003, 21:40
Originally posted by BenS1
It looks good, but is it not possible to get a much bigger intercooler mounted at the front? I know space is tight but there must be some room somewhere. Or maybe two of the smaller intercoolers?
Cheers
Ben
LOL
You fancy chopping up your bumper then Ben?
If it can stand over 300bhp, it is'nt doing too badly I would say eh?
:p
Bill
Well, i would say the stock one looks better from inside than the forge one ;).
Originally posted by ibizacupra
LOL
You fancy chopping up your bumper then Ben?
If it can stand over 300bhp, it is'nt doing too badly I would say eh?
:p
Bill
:)
It its working very well but the whole concept of a side mounted IC sounds mad to me.... the whole point is that it gets as much airflow as poss so they go and stick it in a place with low airflow (Compared to if it was front mounted.).
Is there really so little space behind the bumper that you could fit a front mounted one without cutting it up?
I thought I had a vague recollection of Forge developing a front mounted one for the Ibiza, but ould be wrong.
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
11-02-2003, 22:34
Originally posted by BenS1
:)
It its working very well but the whole concept of a side mounted IC sounds mad to me.... the whole point is that it gets as much airflow as poss so they go and stick it in a place with low airflow (Compared to if it was front mounted.).
Is there really so little space behind the bumper that you could fit a front mounted one without cutting it up?
I thought I had a vague recollection of Forge developing a front mounted one for the Ibiza, but ould be wrong.
Cheers
Ben
There is'nt much space Ben no.
To my knowledge Forge are'nt looking into a FMIC for the Ibiza.
Going to be ££ and not straight bolt on.
FMIC will only work IF you get the airflow through it.
*potential* issue might be the intercooler sat in front of the aircon radiator, which is in front of the water radiator.
don't forget you will need to route the piping back into the throttle also.
Not saying it can;t be done. But it is'nt simple either.
If a side mount works, don't knock it.. its a simple solution.
325bhp and it flow enough air... Seems amazing to me. We will have to see how much Mike can squeeze from it on thursday.
Bill
You going for another map and more power?
How much for this intercooler (shipped to hungary)???
ibizacupra
12-02-2003, 07:58
Originally posted by BenS1
You going for another map and more power?
Yep! :D :D :D
Then again for a chargecooler when thats ready.
:)
Bill
Hi
I have seen a yellow ibiza at one of our NW meets with a FMIC - it was a very nice neat install but perhaps a bit vulnerable - Z, Kev or Saul know the guy I think - 240bhp from a KO3 I seem to recall.
But if the side mount works ok on std mountings, it may be not necessary.
Cheers
Rob
Originally posted by RobT
Hi
I have seen a yellow ibiza at one of our NW meets with a FMIC - it was a very nice neat install but perhaps a bit vulnerable - Z, Kev or Saul know the guy I think - 240bhp from a KO3 I seem to recall.
But if the side mount works ok on std mountings, it may be not necessary.
Cheers
Rob
Yeh he's an older guy, was at Trax 2002 and Bruntingthorp. I think he has a garage or something. His lad had a kiwi MK2 on the Cupranet stand at Trax 2001.
Yeah its Mike Smiths dads ibiza. K04'd i think? :confused:
Yeah, its mike smiths dads (dave smiths) car with the FMIC.
He fitted it himself and it did require the removal of the slats in the front bumper and pushing forward.
His car is running a k-04 and was pushing about 240-250bhp, this was however not mapped specifically to the car, jabba sent him a base program from memory.
However, they dont think the IC gave much out over stock IC, and thats after numerous 1/4mile runs.
Price of FMIC is approx £900.
cupra192
12-02-2003, 10:24
You can get a large fornt mount ic like me from star performance
workes very well without cutting pic on there web site.
www.starperformance.co.uk/intercooler.htm
ANDY BLUNT
12-02-2003, 10:50
Change to Revo and you will be amazed,especially with your mods.Mine 209bhp at 4632rpm ,245ibft at 4092 rpm,onlow boost pos 9.Sps3 configured for optimax,panel filter and dv007.:D
cupra192
12-02-2003, 11:00
to far to travel to get the new software im north of the boarder
star are not going to be doing revo will just have to wait and see
if there is a dealer up here in scotland
ibizacupra
12-02-2003, 11:18
Originally posted by cupra192
You can get a large fornt mount ic like me from star performance
workes very well without cutting pic on there web site.
www.starperformance.co.uk/intercooler.htm
Looks like a large enough jobbie.
Any piccies of an installed on?
What are the pipe runs like?
Bill
max_torque
12-02-2003, 11:31
Unfortunately as per usual this FMIC is a standard core with welded on end caps - but (to make it easy / cheap) they have not spent any time getting the entry /exit conditions right. 90 degree turns on big changes of area with no radius is not good!. Almost certainly although the extra area of cooler will increase cooling effectiveness, the extra presure loss will offset this to some degree.
If people are going to sell stuff as "uprated" they should really spend some time getting the basics right!
These days the OEM stuff is usually pretty good for internal flow with nice moulded end caps etc. if you find them not big enough for increase airflow / heat rejection on your chipepd car, then at least try to copy the general shape of the end caps.
A 5 degree cooler charge temp will increase air density by the same amount as only a 0.3 psi increase in pressure so you can see the importance of pressure losses!!
ibizacupra
12-02-2003, 11:43
running back on the rollers tomorrow @ Jabba, so we can compare the stock IC (which it was max'd out to) to the as-is Forge uprated jobbie.
Ignoring temps, airflow seems increased by the pressure drop being reduced.
More detail to follow.
More boost hopefully.
At stealth, mine ran 1.05bar max @ 325bhp and Jabba's ran 1.15bar max @ 344bhp. - We are aiming for 1.25bar max eventually.
All good fun. :p
regards
Bill
cupra192
12-02-2003, 12:16
Do not have any pics of it on my car but if i get a camera will
post the pics as for the design of it my car ran on the dyno and the charge temp did not rise above 20degrees cant tell you how good the
ic works jim at star knows his stuff
max_torque
12-02-2003, 12:47
No disagreement that it works, but it could be even better!
typically a chassis dyno run will be all over in 10 or 15 secs maximum, not what i'd call a stabilised test. On short one off tests you will have so much heat soak into IC, pipework and inlet manifold seeing a small temp rise is normal. However OEM's develop an IC system that is tested under steady state stabilised conditons. Typically an engine will do a continous 180 hrs (7.5 days or over 1 week!) at wide open throttle peak power rpm, and will have to make with 2% of the starting power!
Also all OEM engine dyno power curves will be at stabilised boundary conditions, ie air temp, oil temp, coolant temp, charge temp, barometric pressure, humidity etc. thats why you can put a std 150bhp car on some rollers, blip thorough a power curve in 15secs and find you have got 180 bhp! (not even going to go into the whole issue of power at wheels verses flywheel here!)(40 to 50 degC is a typical homolgation charge temperature for a turbo engine)
Having been a turbo-engine development engineer at Cosworth for 6 years tells me that your FMIC could have better designed end caps!
With regard to packaging problems with FMIC's, i would suggest that people try an external water spray system (cheap and easy to do), it will certainly improve the std intercooler efficiency on hot summer days (ok not that often in Uk!)
ibizacupra
12-02-2003, 13:16
Originally posted by cupra192
Do not have any pics of it on my car but if i get a camera will
post the pics as for the design of it my car ran on the dyno and the charge temp did not rise above 20degrees cant tell you how good the
ic works jim at star knows his stuff
Blimey... 20'C constant. On a power run..
Hope my combined system works as well.
(chargecooled & air-air intercooled)
Bill
FMIC from STAR no longer available (email from Jim @ Star 12/2/03)
Dormouse
12-02-2003, 16:40
With my usual cynical devil's advocate mouse like-hat on.
I'd say that it's purely a better airflow that doesn't compress the air as much and thus reduces air increase in temp due to pressure.
Me winders iftaking the i/c out completely and sticking a silicon pipe in the place of the i/c would be even better!
Hehe wait for the response...:D
Dor.
ibizacupra
12-02-2003, 18:32
You already know the answer to that Dor.....
Hot hot hot.
15psi boost on stock IC (even mine with greater airflow) vs 15psi of boost on a stock IC... one gave end temp of nearly 60'C and mine did 47'C.
Seems to work... but will know more tomorrow after remapping.
Bill
Brokenlegs
12-02-2003, 18:39
Bill,
If these work and you want to get them made at the right price them call daz or keith at radtec. These guys are my mates and make all the intercoolers and rads for most of the WRC and Touring car teams very helpfull guys and honest.
I suppose from looking at the pics expect to pay around £200 ish for the unit as it looks similair to another one they do allready for Jabbasport.
Mark.
ow about shorter pipes and a larger area ?
need a big hole in the bonnet :) and vision impaired ;)
ForgeMotorsport
12-02-2003, 20:11
Intercooler here
http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/ibiza.asp?cat=ibiza&product=FMINTIBI
ibizacupra
14-02-2003, 08:40
Remapped. allowed some more boost through less pressure drop across the Forge SMIC. Went in with 325bhp on 1st pre-run, and after Mike has nudged up the mapping it topped out at 337bhp. This is max'd out for airflow for this size intercooler. No more to come. As soon as the pressure drop increases the temps climb rapidly. Everything has its limits. :)
IMHO anyone running 1bar or more boost should seriously think about their intercooling in preperation for the summer months. Its going to get damned hot when the ambient is up as well.
Bill
max_torque
14-02-2003, 09:28
Thought about fitting in-cylinder water injection bill?
(www.aquamist.com i think?) makes a big difference but you will need to run a more advanced spark timing to get an increase in flywheel torque - also it's nice to have a standard boost / spark setting as a default for when you run out of water etc.
On my 'beeza i have a "stage" setting that runs full boost+spark, activates the in-cylinder water injection and the external intercooler water spray, but in case of a fault or no water it defaults back to std setting to protect engine. (also activates the anit-lag as well - kaaabooommm!)
max_torque
14-02-2003, 09:30
sorry it's www.aquamist.co.uk the .com one is still watering, but more of the garden kind!:p
Anti lag on an Ibiza..
Tell me more?????
On my 'beeza i have a "stage" setting that runs full boost+spark, activates the in-cylinder water injection and the external intercooler water spray, but in case of a fault or no water it defaults back to std setting to protect engine. (also activates the anit-lag as well - kaaabooommm!)
aquamist.co.uk link doesn't seem to work?????
Icecavern
14-02-2003, 09:45
Click on the link max posted and then remove the "," at the end...
Pete
Well spotted.
Cheers it's work's now...
Rich
max_torque
14-02-2003, 10:03
Sorry, crappy typing skills strike again!
anti-lag is easy to do, but you need 2 things:
1) A suitable ECU - I run a Motec M8 system
2) A suitable turbo charger with a Myram steel shaft (approx £3k!)
only problems are that the exhaust manifold and silencer last about 5 mins, and the turbo gets no chance to cool down / slow down so is worn out pretty quickly, or straight away if you get too agressive with the fuelling.
On a road car the cat would be well dead virtually straight away as well cause of all the unburnt fuel and extreme temps / unpredictable post turbine burn.
For a road car i wouldn't bother - (learn to left foot brake instead) for a competition car it's useful, but is banned on so many events now on noise grounds it's getting less useful.
The water injection is really good though, vital on an FIA inlet restricted engine to make any good performance because engines are so detonation limited at 2 bar boost and 9.8:1 CR with huge in-cylinder residuals created by restricted turbo's backpressure.
All the above sound great for motorsport then, but more or less useless for any road going car.
Especially one that's not too far from Standard.
It was worth asking though.
Used to get great flames shooting out the back of me cosworth and popping on overrun (more like banging) which I thpught was great.:D
But the Ibiza Cupra's alot more refined and smooth, no noises from this little beauty, shame really.....(sometimes)
ibizacupra
14-02-2003, 10:59
Originally posted by max_torque
Thought about fitting in-cylinder water injection bill?
(www.aquamist.com i think?) makes a big difference but you will need to run a more advanced spark timing to get an increase in flywheel torque - also it's nice to have a standard boost / spark setting as a default for when you run out of water etc.
On my 'beeza i have a "stage" setting that runs full boost+spark, activates the in-cylinder water injection and the external intercooler water spray, but in case of a fault or no water it defaults back to std setting to protect engine. (also activates the anit-lag as well - kaaabooommm!)
I have thought about it yes.
Will look further as I get more greedy for more boost...
1.15bar is'nt mad and induction temps are climbing as much for intercooler restrictions as for general compression of the induction.
chargecooler next step, then review what its running like.
For more power though IF I want it, I will be thinking of internal mechnical changes for peace of mind.. (rods, bolts, pistons, possible flowing of the cylinder head and a pair of schrick cams)
thanks for the link
regards
Bill
water injection will increase compression though
max_torque
14-02-2003, 23:01
If you mean that the dynamic compression ratio will increase then yes thats true, because the combustion chamber mass will be higher. However the charge water will not stay liquid, but will evaporate which renoves heat from the chamber and cools the incoming air charge. this increased charge density will increase cylinder filling and the dynamic CR will go up. But 'cause the overall chareg temp is lower detonation is surpressed in the end gas regions, you can advance the ignition timing and burn a greater proportion of the charge earlier, leading to a longer expansion stroke and more work on the piston, ie more torque!
max_torque
14-02-2003, 23:06
Forgot to add:
1 more thing that helps with tuned turbo's, that changes when you run water injection is peak cylinder pressure and rate of rise. Typically when you wind up the boost on a turbo engine you are forced to retard ignition timing to avoid detonation. what this does is to cause a relatively late burn, which gives a slow rate of pressure rise and a short fat(long duration afer TDC) cylinder pressure curve. this is good because you do not want to massively increase peak cylinder pressure above OEM levels (head gaskets / head lifting, piston cracking etc!)
But when you run water injection you can now run advanced timing, leading to a significant increase in Pmax and rapid pressure rises of typically 5 to 6 bar per deg (crank). this can easily start to destroy a std engine.
Back to the old, how fast do you want to go / how long do you want it to last / how much do you want to spend circle!