Revo's RS4 goes bang ? [Archive] - SEAT Cupra.net

RobT

05-03-2003, 15:08

Originally posted by edc
If it's a gear selection problem I suppose it is not attributable to the Revo. It could be if it was something else in the gearbox. Still, for a demo car that gets pounded I'd reckon on a few things going wrong. Most of us don't drive our cars like maniacs all the time (apart from a few un-named nutters around here;) )

If the gear selectors are jammed by a piece of broken gear or shaft then it is quite possible it is due to the additional strain put on the gearbox when any engine is tuned, and thus Revo's fault - then again it could have failed anyhow on an unmodified engine - who can tell - only statistics can tell you - is this a common failure on many cars ? - hard to say with a car like the RS4 which arn't exactly thick on the ground.

Point is it happened on a car with a tuned engine and this throws doubt on the tuning and it being too much for the car. But its good it happened to a Revo car as this is called testing - not sure I would be quite so philosophical if it was my RS4 that it happened to

Ave it

Dave

edc

05-03-2003, 15:21

Agreed. The thread was looking a bit 'Revo breaks your car'-like for a moment. As you say could happen anytime, anywhere, anyone any car.

RobT

05-03-2003, 15:44

Originally posted by edc
Agreed. The thread was looking a bit 'Revo breaks your car'-like for a moment.

Thats still a possibility.

Ave it

Rob

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 15:44

Well, yes it could, but equally given a bit of common sense I would say that a car (lets call it car A) with more power / torque than another car (let's call it car B - standard). Would have a reduced mean time before failure. Now what we don't know (as Rob has pointed out) is the OEM failure rate for car B, so we can't qualify the fail rate of car A. What we do know as i have pointed out above is that it will be higher (but this may be well outside the useful life of the car anyway).

Also the RS4 in question may have just had a dodgy locking nut etc installed at factory that is causing the problems.

So based on a decent engineering analysis we know squat really except what common sense tells us about fail rates being proportional to stress exerted (which can't be qualified without a decent set of raw data, which we don't have).

Dor (Impartial as always) :D

ibizacupra

05-03-2003, 15:46

Hey Rob...

If you mod it and crank up the power significantly... drive it hard..... it will break something sometime...

Says he with several 020 g'box rebuilds under his belt :p

Opps...
Dirve hard play hard... shit happens!

Personally speaking ( and this intended in the best possible humour) I reckon Mitchell is trying to get his RS4 to be as quick as me ickle ibiza... :p

(only kidding Mitch.. :) honest ;) )

Bill

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 15:46

Ooooh i forgot,

There's a thing called Engineers Intuition. You can't learn it, you are born with it. It also works very well :D

Dor.

edc

05-03-2003, 15:54

Originally posted by RobT
Thats still a possibility.

Ave it

Rob

Oh yes, possibility not certainty. Just trying to push it to 'Revo can break your car, possibly even quicker than your standard map'.

Saul

05-03-2003, 15:56

:thud:

was that a gauntlet i hear being thrown down bill?

:p

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 16:01

Oh yes, possibility not certainty. Just trying to push it to 'Revo can break your car, possibly even quicker than your standard map'.

Dor Alters to :-

REVO / A.N.Other Tuner will break your car quicker than a standard map, but your car will break with the standard map anyway at some point.

Cheers

Dor.

RobT

05-03-2003, 16:20

Originally posted by ibizacupra
Hey Rob...

If you mod it and crank up the power significantly... drive it hard..... it will break something sometime...

Says he with several 020 g'box rebuilds under his belt :p

Opps...
Dirve hard play hard... shit happens!

Personally speaking ( and this intended in the best possible humour) I reckon Mitchell is trying to get his RS4 to be as quick as me ickle ibiza... :p

(only kidding Mitch.. :) honest ;) )

Bill

Hi Bill

I am quite aware that the more modded a car gets, the more likely it is to break. It is also more likely to break if used harshly and without sympathy and these are very different to giving it plenty of stick. As I am sure you are aware, the trick is to modify the parts that break until nothing breaks anymore under the stress it is being given. This is called development. What I would prefer is that companies that sell supposedly 'off the shelf' and 'sorted' products - as chipping companies do - that they do the development and not get the poor unsuspecting public to do it. If the public is expected to do this then that should be well understood at the outset and the price of the work adjusted appropriately - as you are doing their development.

Tuning cars (back when Adam were a lad) used to be accompanied with lots of understanding of the engine and driveline package - and often in association with racing programs. The firms did LOTS of development. The current vogue in chipping gives large power gains with compariatively little understanding of the overall package IMO and in the year to come I fear we will hear of many more examples of cars with knackered clutches, gearboxes, wheel bearings, driveshafts etc. I guess we will see.

This is not in any way a specific dig at Revo but simply comment about the whole chipping scene. I like the idea of the relatively cheap power upgrades available but if I were doing it (and I am scoping it out presently for my Leon) I would be looking at clutches, LSD's etc etc as well.

Ave it

Rob

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 16:27

Rob, your a man after my own heart. But you can't have it. Will a pickled egg do instead? :D

Cheers

Dor.

P.S I think Bill fully understands the stress and fatigue of modification, my fear is there are loads of people around that don't have 'mechanical understanding':(

Cupramax

05-03-2003, 16:34

Ooops, did I here someone mention Revo and dead gearboxes :D

Saul

05-03-2003, 16:40

Is it not a tad obvious tho?

You increase power and torque on a standard car and the standard "wearable" components will either become the weakest link or in some cases obsolete.

hence why we upgrade the brakes and suspension components.

Maybe the less visible items such as clutches and boxes are not thought of all the time by some. I would hope they do consider them.

Its all down to the individual really, if you dont realise you are putting increased wear on various parts with increased power etc you will get a big repair bill.

Hence why its best to look after our cars as best as possible and maybe uprate some of the components to prevent failure.

I for one know that my clutch has probably had its useful life sliced in half, but i dont mind as ive prepared myself for that fact and will be buying an uprated item when the time comes.

:cheers:

edc

05-03-2003, 16:45

Originally posted by Saul
Is it not a tad obvious tho?

The full implications aren't obvious to some as you often get qus posted asking whether various bits will break/cope etc...

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 16:47

Agreed Saul :D

Although i'm thinking that the reason for brake and suspension component upgrade is more for tuning than 'useable life / reliability'. After all a std clutch will work fully up until the point it fails. Std suspension will work, just not as well (application specific to use i.e track) Std brakes will work but not as well (again application specific).

Don't blame me, i woke up in a pedantic mood :D :D

Cheers

Dor.

RobT

05-03-2003, 16:49

Originally posted by Saul

I for one know that my clutch has probably had its useful life sliced in half, but i dont mind as ive prepared myself for that fact and will be buying an uprated item when the time comes.

:cheers:

Hello george

Was this explained to you when you had your chipping done though ? If so fair enough, y' pays y' money and y' takes y' choice. If not, have the 'chippers' been fair with you ? This suggests to me they either dont understand their product - in which case they are crap tuners who have skimped on the development process to feather their own nests and screw you the consumer - or they knowingly kept this info from you to sell the product - in which case they are crap people.

Ave it

Rob

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 16:50

The full implications aren't obvious to some as you often get qus posted asking whether various bits will break/cope etc...

Which is precisely the point, we just don't know. No reliablity study (as far as i am aware) has been done, but then again I don't know of any mechnical failures in stage 1 tuned SEAT seats at this time.

Dor.

Dormouse

05-03-2003, 16:52

Was this explained to you when you had your chipping done though ? If so fair enough, y' pays y' money and y' takes y' choice. If not, have the 'chippers' been fair with you ? This suggests to me they either dont understand their product - in which case they are crap tuners who have skimped on the development process to feather their own nests and screw you the consumer - or they knowingly kept this info from you to sell the product - in which case they are crap people.

RobT :- SEATCUPRA.NET's answer to Roger Cook :D :D

Dor.

RobT

05-03-2003, 16:56

Originally posted by edc
The full implications aren't obvious to some as you often get qus posted asking whether various bits will break/cope etc...

Exactly - the full implications are not realised by MANY.

Just a thought - how many 'chipping' companies have got racing programs running 'testing' their wares under the most arduous conditions ? Anyone know any ?

Or is it that you the consumer are doing their testing for them ?

Rob

edc

05-03-2003, 16:56

Originally posted by RobT
Hello george

Was this explained to you when you had your chipping done though ? If so fair enough, y' pays y' money and y' takes y' choice. If not, have the 'chippers' been fair with you ? This suggests to me they either dont understand their product - in which case they are crap tuners who have skimped on the development process to feather their own nests and screw you the consumer - or they knowingly kept this info from you to sell the product - in which case they are crap people.

Ave it

Rob

I'm not certain that it's a tuner's obligation to warn you of potential failures in the future. I suggest it's up to the consumer to do the necessary research and if they ask "ok you've sold me on the plus points, what are the negatives?" then the tuner should answer honestly.

I mean before we buy financial products many see an independant financial adviser and before legal wrangles most consult a lawyer. People should similarly seek unbiased advice for their circumstances. If people are naieve enough not to ask any questions it's tough luck.

Saul

05-03-2003, 16:57

Originally posted by RobT
Hello george

Was this explained to you when you had your chipping done though ? If so fair enough, y' pays y' money and y' takes y' choice. If not, have the 'chippers' been fair with you ? This suggests to me they either dont understand their product - in which case they are crap tuners who have skimped on the development process to feather their own nests and screw you the consumer - or they knowingly kept this info from you to sell the product - in which case they are crap people.

Ave it

Rob

its all a bit subjective tho is it not?

you could drive a completely standard car into the floor in 3 months and bust a clutch, or drive a "chipped" car for 3 years with no problems whatsoever, i would think it was impossible to say to each individual customer that "your X will break" as each customer uses their car differently (ie. we track em and some others dont)
I mean have you ever been told in any modification you have made that component A wouldnt last very long???

Im not advocating anyone having the wool pulled over their eyes, but as they are (in the main) wear parts anyway it is pretty much self explanatory.

Chipping our turbo engined cars does realease good and inexpensive (in tuning terms) power however you should always think of the next step you may need to take IMO.

ave it

george

RobT

05-03-2003, 17:04

Originally posted by Dormouse
Which is precisely the point, we just don't know. No reliablity study (as far as i am aware) has been done, but then again I don't know of any mechnical failures in stage 1 tuned SEAT seats at this time.

Dor.

Perhaps Revo can take the lead here, as its a Revo forum, and tell us how much 'historical' data they have on Seat Ibiza's that have been fitted with their tuning package(s)....

Rob

ibizacupra

05-03-2003, 19:26

ibizacupra

05-03-2003, 19:31

As far as I know Mitch is running very high levels to get big power from his RS4... See how much it can take..? Development maybe... or maybe just because he can :D (lucky bloke)

dunno the answer, but I think he got the motor to pull like stink, and 2nd gear decided to not want to disengage then when it did come out, it does'nt really want to go back in.... (well if it was pushing 450+bhp neither would I :p)

LOL

Bill

Cupramax

05-03-2003, 20:23

Yeah but 450hp from an RS4 isn't exactly unusuall, both AmD & MTM have achieved this as well, but I have heard of another RS4 in which the gearbox let go in second doing a quarter mile run against a Skyline.

Fen

05-03-2003, 21:50

RobT, to borrow from Dor's old siggy, perhaps you should stick to the chip on your shoulder and not put one in your car.

Personally I wouldn't have wanted to pay for the cost of a 'development' programme along with the cost of development of the software in my chip. I'd also still be waiting if such a programme had to be completed before to map was released.

Frankly I think it's obvious to a 5 year old that if you increase the output of a car's engine then you increase the rate of wear of virtually every component as well as the chances of any item failing completely.

Given that we have heard of no failures (AFAIK) of any of the site member's cars, Revo'd or otherwise tuned, I think we can take that as an indication that the envelope isn't being pushed too far.

I've now driven 15,000 miles on my Revo chip with no adverse effects.

Fl@pper

05-03-2003, 22:01

wake me up when the fun starts :D

anyone else want a clean SPADE ??? :devil:

and as for warning of potential dangers - god never told me when i was born i would die - but my heart tells me F*** it , enjoy it while it lasts

MARRA

05-03-2003, 22:17

At the end of the day 'sh*t happens' some people may drive 100,000 miles without anything happening, somebody else may go 10,000 miles and something goes ti*s up.

Obviously the more boost on a turbo engine, the higher the stress, if this wasn't the case there wouldn't be a market for tuners/chippers as manufacturers would go balls out anyway.

But there is a market as manufacturers maybe go on the 'conservative' side of things, protecting their name etc.

At the end of the day we all know the risks associated with chipping or tuning etc. and we all make our choices, it's called a democracy.

GJ18T

05-03-2003, 22:31

Having read several different (and joined) viewpoints here I thought I might as well stick my foot in too ;)

The whole issue seems to be: how obvious is it you will wear the car down sooner if you chip it?

I personally don't think we need the "Don't dry your dog in the microwave" leaflet when it is chipped but maybe a "Hints & tips after tuning your car" maybe a good idea for the less technically inclined.

Fl@pper

05-03-2003, 22:35

Originally posted by GJ18T
Having read several different (and joined) viewpoints here I thought I might as well stick my foot in too ;)

The whole issue seems to be: how obvious is it you will wear the car down sooner if you chip it?

I personally don't think we need the "Don't dry your dog in the microwave" leaflet when it is chipped but maybe a "Hints & tips after tuning your car" maybe a good idea for the less technically inclined.

you a politician ?? lol

nah mate - sounds like a crackin good idea

GJ18T

05-03-2003, 22:53

you a politician ?? lol
[/B]

Nope..it's worse...I'm Dutch ;)

Ah..the true joys of being "Politically correct"..hah

I'll stick with your last statement though..talk less, get
in the car and give that right foot a good shake :)

Fl@pper

05-03-2003, 22:57

good on ya :)

"if it's got tyres - DRIVE IT HARD"

"if it's got tits - DRIVE IT HARD"

"if it breaks - FIX IT - then DRIVE IT HARD"

:)

heading to Echt in the summer to see family - look out for a UK loony DRIVING HARD lol

MARRA

05-03-2003, 23:12

Originally posted by Fl@pper
good on ya :)

"if it's got tyres - DRIVE IT HARD"

"if it's got tits - DRIVE IT HARD"

"if it breaks - FIX IT - then DRIVE IT HARD"

:)

heading to Echt in the summer to see family - look out for a UK loony DRIVING HARD lol
I second everything said, if you weren't willing to take a risk then why are you even looking at the tuning pages.

Revo Kev

06-03-2003, 10:56

Just to point out that we haven't actually released the RS4 software as it is still under developement. The way it gets driven the problem is likely to have occured even when standard.

As for tuning any car if you push more torque/power than standard the lifespan of certain components is going to be affected, depending on the state of tune the change in lifespan will vary. All the software we release is within a safe state of tune ie: is within the factory specified limits on the likes of the gearbox, turbo, etc.

You could also say that the more 'pasty' you give a car the shorter the lifespan of some of the components, this would be the case be it a standard or tuned car.

RobT

06-03-2003, 11:47

Originally posted by Revo Kev
Just to point out that we haven't actually released the RS4 software as it is still under developement. The way it gets driven the problem is likely to have occured even when standard.

As for tuning any car if you push more torque/power than standard the lifespan of certain components is going to be affected, depending on the state of tune the change in lifespan will vary. All the software we release is within a safe state of tune ie: is within the factory specified limits on the likes of the gearbox, turbo, etc.

You could also say that the more 'pasty' you give a car the shorter the lifespan of some of the components, this would be the case be it a standard or tuned car.

Hello Dave

My point is simply, what assurances can Revo give that the program they sell to the public has been tested already on similar cars by Revo themselves and they can say with confidence that the product does not affect the reliability of the car. Or - are Revo doing their testing on the cars of jo public ?

Subaru sell chip performance upgrades for their cars that are more expensive than Revo mods but they are backed by the factory and warranties honoured (PPP type packages). There is one such mod (a 'high torque' conversion) mentioned in this weeks Autocar. The factory warranty backing is presumably why they are more expensive or the added expense has gone into testing and they are then sure that the changes will not overtly affect reliability. Oettinger chips were/are expensive but are also backed by the factory.

If a Revo tuned car goes bang, and I'm not suggesting it is more likely to than one tuned by another firm or even a standard car, what comeback has the consumer got ?

Ave it

Rob

Revo Kev

06-03-2003, 12:18

None of our software is released without prior testing on a vehicle.

A car won't go 'bang' due to using Revo software as everything is working within factory specced limits. The SPS 3 does have a disclaimer on it, as you are able to take the car past what we would recommend as safe everyday use, this is up to the user to decide.

Wilko

06-03-2003, 12:33

Rob
Most manufacturers have started to take the "drive your car on a trackday and break it, then it's your problem"
You have no comeback on any tuner if your car goes bang. Any warentees given are not worth much.
Anyone who doesn't do research before they modify their car by reading forums such as these is stupid. Educate yourself, and be aware of the risks.
I bet everyone asked their insurance how much it would go up before moding their car!!
If you walk into your local scooby dealer to buy an STI, do you think he'll tell you that it's expensive to insure, gets through clutches, eats tyres and suffers from gearbox failures if abused. NO! you go and read up for yourself!
Have a read around audiworld and audi-sport.net forums. RS4 and S4 gearboxes fail in standard and tuned form, from abuse. Rumour has it mitch is a bit of a hooligan and regularly attands track days(abuse)

Any car pushing >400lbft of torque will strain drivetrain components. You can only make them so big as you have to be able to package them within the confines of a car. Not too many years ago there was only a couple of auto boxes that would cope with >400lbft.

Bently were apparently having problems breaking drivetrain components on their new coupe due to the excessive torque.

Get a standard 20VT and sidestep the clutch at 4K on every start and you'll either fry your clutch, or break a driveshaft and trash your tyres within a few hours.
Take a chipped one and drive it like a normal person and the risk of anything failing is eatremely low. When a clutch is fully engaged it doesn't wear!! People have been chipping 1.8T's for a few years now and ther have been very few instances of failure (read around vortex). The few that there have been have been under extreme tuning (350HP+)

I've spent time talking to chip tuners (revo and others) who wer all very honest about the extra wear and tear that their tuning produces. They will point people in the direction of forums such as this for you to do some research to check that what they tell you is true!

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 12:35

Originally posted by RobT
Oettinger chips were/are expensive but are also backed by the factory.
Rob

No they have'nt Rob..
Not in the UK... Can't say for European countries tho..

The warranty for Oettinger here in the UK is from RSD not from Oettinger. They "run the risk" that they may have to foot the bill for anything which might need replacing and "is deemed" to have been attributable to the conversion, and only comes into effect if the manufacturers warranty is not withheld.

Take you car on track and its VOID! Fact.

Try and use it.. and the gaps appear... Experience!

You are on your own.
go into it eyes wide open, and you should have no surprises.. expect the uninspected.... Treat warranties like insurance... They will wriggle and squirm wherever possible to not pay out.

Bill

RobT

06-03-2003, 12:55

Hi

If you have work done to your house, e.g. new double glasing installed, and the windows for example steam up inbetween the panes, you would call the factory and get them to come back and sort it out. If you buy a new video, you get at least 1 yrs insurance against it breaking down. You the consumer are protected against poor craftsmanship.

However - from what you are all saying, in the tuning world, tuners can make upgrade kits, sell them to you for a not insignificant amount of money, and then stand back with no comeback whatsoever if the car goes wrong as obviously its how you have been driving it and nothing whatsoever to do with them.

What a fantastic buisness to be in - you can sell what you like to people with no customer protection at all. This does not seem right to me.

Ave it

Rob

RobT

06-03-2003, 13:00

Originally posted by Revo Kev
None of our software is released without prior testing on a vehicle.

A car won't go 'bang' due to using Revo software as everything is working within factory specced limits. The SPS 3 does have a disclaimer on it, as you are able to take the car past what we would recommend as safe everyday use, this is up to the user to decide.

Ok so how much and what testing has been done by Revo with a Seat Ibiza for programs that are currently on sale to the public ? simple question.

Rob

RobT

06-03-2003, 13:10

Originally posted by GtiT
Rob
Ive spent time talking to chip tuners (revo and others) who wer all very honest about the extra wear and tear that their tuning produces. They will point people in the direction of forums such as this for you to do some research to check that what they tell you is true!

Hi

Accepted, but what I am trying to determine is what development chipping tuners do themselves with the actual cars that they sell modifications to rather than modify OUR cars and see what happens.

Rob

m0rk

06-03-2003, 13:11

They own a SEAT Ibiza 20VT. I think that's been the test bed for the Ibiza program(s)

Originally posted by RobT
Ok so how much and what testing has been done by Revo with a Seat Ibiza for programs that are currently on sale to the public ? simple question.

Rob

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 13:35

Originally posted by RobT
Hi

If you have work done to your house, e.g. new double glasing installed, and the windows for example steam up inbetween the panes, you would call the factory and get them to come back and sort it out. If you buy a new video, you get at least 1 yrs insurance against it breaking down. You the consumer are protected against poor craftsmanship.

However - from what you are all saying, in the tuning world, tuners can make upgrade kits, sell them to you for a not insignificant amount of money, and then stand back with no comeback whatsoever if the car goes wrong as obviously its how you have been driving it and nothing whatsoever to do with them.

What a fantastic buisness to be in - you can sell what you like to people with no customer protection at all. This does not seem right to me.

Ave it

Rob

I know exactly what you are saying Rob... I've been there when I bought my Beezer... Nice car, chipped, warrantied despite being chipped, supported by the dealer and tuner... Sounds too good to be true.. You know the rest. It was all BS...

If you're going to use your car in motorsport, or track days and tell the supplier this... you will find few who will actually stand by the product.. Autotechnik stood by their workmanship knowing what I do with the Jetta etc, on the g'box rebuild.. and warrantied their work. No one else would who I spoke to.

Its a very grey area, and I can 100% understand manufacturers reluctance to warranty non supplied products... ie engine bits/transmission etc on a chip tune upgrade. These items fail on their own courtesy of the the vehicle manufacturer. (MAF's, coil packs...)

Customer (in general) can be very ingenious and creative when it comes to breaking bits... Was it properly serviced... did they check the oil level... Simple things which get neglected and might evolve into product failure, but not attributable to the tuner. Take it back to a main dealer and they are 99% sure to blame the non-std part regardless... without even looking into it. Its "shift the blame" time. Sad but true. Given that is the reality, it is'nt surprising that next to no one offers the warranty you are suggesting they should. It not that they don't trust their own products, its they cannot allow for every tom, dick or harry driving them to destruction. - you have to allow for all sorts of customers, both informed and well educated like yourself, and others who are not..... Its a tough call.

I'll give you another example.. Leon-R owner.. Complained of poor braking.. (huge brembos). Returned, they replaced, glazed pads.. (had got very hot). A day or so later, came back.. Same thing. Glazed pads. Replaced again. (FOC)... told specifically to be gentle to bed then in.. Came back again.... Glazed pads.. very unhappy, Mr Stroppy etc.... He did not bed in his brakes, he caned them (blue disks) and ignored advise given to him. He did'nt understand what he was told, ignored it, and destroyed 3 x sets of front pads.. He did not get another set FOC... Yes he was unhappy, but he was also not doing as he was advised, and abused the brakes to destruction. This is the sort of customer who is the worst case scenario, but you have to cater for him.

(and no, the calipers were not sticking)

If anyone does offer a warranty they will be brave or either well indemnified and charge accordingly... to allow for Mr X.

Bill
:)

edc

06-03-2003, 14:02

Revo Mitchell

06-03-2003, 14:45

Just to clarify...

The RS4 gearbox is fine. My problem was a bushing in the shifter linkage that decided it wanted its freedom.

However this thread does need to be address for another reason, longevity. First let it be said that we test every code that goes out the door. We set the codes where we believe the components will suffer the least with the greatest amount of performance gain. There are always compromises; we can produce software that will add lots more power but inevitably hurt the components. We don't sell these programs for that very reason. Even after we finish codes we drive them in test cars to make sure everything is perfect. After this we will release it.

As for software nerds or racing gurus we are both. Our staff includes engineers and numerous motorsport championships. Setting up cars and track testing is certainly nothing new.

The RS4 is on Beta N version and yes it is ballistic. This code is release quality and has been running in 2 cars for about a month for driveability testing. After this test we will put it in several other cars for a couple of weeks just to make sure. It will then be released in April only if we are satisfied with the tests. With the exception of my linkage problem and a blown DV we have had zero issues thus far. Is the code responsible for my bushing failure??? Probably, it makes the nut behind the wheel hold on for dear life and the gear shift is used to keep that very nut in place, not to mention the incredibly fast gear changes!

:)

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 14:53

Can I have a ride in it next time I see you?
Sounds like big fun :D :D :D :D :D

Bill

Fl@pper

06-03-2003, 15:18

Originally posted by Revo Kev

You could also say that the more 'pasty' you give a car the shorter the lifespan of some of the components, this would be the case be it a standard or tuned car.

i can blow a new OE standard fiesta clutch in 5 mins flat

tuned or not :) i'll break it somehow

Fl@pper

06-03-2003, 15:20

Originally posted by RobT
Hi

Accepted, but what I am trying to determine is what development chipping tuners do themselves with the actual cars that they sell modifications to rather than modify OUR cars and see what happens.

Rob

manufacturers do the same with your cars , most of the in life modifications for a vehicle's problems come from real life running - ie YOUR CARS WARRANTY -

they don't test em like they used to - not enough time and money available :(

RobT

06-03-2003, 16:10

Originally posted by Revo Mitchell
Just to clarify...

The RS4 gearbox is fine. My problem was a bushing in the shifter linkage that decided it wanted its freedom.

However this thread does need to be address for another reason, longevity. First let it be said that we test every code that goes out the door. We set the codes where we believe the components will suffer the least with the greatest amount of performance gain. There are always compromises; we can produce software that will add lots more power but inevitably hurt the components. We don't sell these programs for that very reason. Even after we finish codes we drive them in test cars to make sure everything is perfect. After this we will release it.

As for software nerds or racing gurus we are both. Our staff includes engineers and numerous motorsport championships. Setting up cars and track testing is certainly nothing new.

The RS4 is on Beta N version and yes it is ballistic. This code is release quality and has been running in 2 cars for about a month for driveability testing. After this test we will put it in several other cars for a couple of weeks just to make sure. It will then be released in April only if we are satisfied with the tests. With the exception of my linkage problem and a blown DV we have had zero issues thus far. Is the code responsible for my bushing failure??? Probably, it makes the nut behind the wheel hold on for dear life and the gear shift is used to keep that very nut in place, not to mention the incredibly fast gear changes!

:)

Thanks for the info on the RS4 testing, which seems a little short in timescale to me, but what I asked about above was what testing has been done by you guys for the Seat Ibiza programs that you sell - and the Leon come to think of it. Surely you must have data on the thorough testing you will have undertaken with these cars before releasing the programs for sale...

Cheers

Rob

edc

06-03-2003, 16:13

Originally posted by RobT
Thanks for the info on the RS4 testing, which seems a little short in timescale to me, but what I asked about above was what testing has been done by you guys for the Seat Ibiza programs that you sell - and the Leon come to think of it. Surely you must have data on the thorough testing you will have undertaken with these cars before releasing the programs for sale...

Cheers

Rob

Maybe, but isn't this info quite sensitive, what with all the other tuners out there who might use this info to skimp ontheir own development testing?

RobT

06-03-2003, 16:19

Originally posted by Fl@pper
manufacturers do the same with your cars , most of the in life modifications for a vehicle's problems come from real life running - ie YOUR CARS WARRANTY -

they don't test em like they used to - not enough time and money available :(

If the car manufacturers release products without thorough testing then thats perhaps not as bad as it sounds as they warranty their cars and give you the consumer some protection. If a tuning company does the same and sells you a product that has undergone insufficient testing then it would appear you dont have a leg to stand on

Big difference

Rob

RobT

06-03-2003, 16:20

Originally posted by edc
Maybe, but isn't this info quite sensitive, what with all the other tuners out there who might use this info to skimp ontheir own development testing?

Perhaps but its info that we have a right to know about before purchasing

Rob

edc

06-03-2003, 16:23

Originally posted by RobT
If the car manufacturers release products without thorough testing then thats perhaps not as bad as it sounds as they warranty their cars and give you the consumer some protection. If a tuning company does the same and sells you a product that has undergone insufficient testing then it would appear you dont have a leg to stand on

Big difference

Rob

The car warranty is for defects in the car. If software is bad then there will be a 'warranty' patch available. Loads of products in the market with no warranties. And, similarly other products which you use in combination with others but the warranties aren't intertwined. Not to be pedantic but what about metal kitchen utensils and non-stick pans? One damages the other if not used with caution but there's rarely a warning or rebate if this happens.

Revo Kev

06-03-2003, 16:36

Originally posted by ibizacupra
Can I have a ride in it next time I see you?
Sounds like big fun :D :D :D :D :D

Bill

Yes, but I doubt you will enjoy it as much as I enjoyed your 'biza! The RS is big and heavy and it takes lots 'o power to make it fast. To make it handle takes a miracle!

You were right, I don't want to race your rocketship! :)

-m

Wilko

06-03-2003, 16:40

Rob
I would think that the revo Ibeza software is among the most tested (in house) out of any out there. Rich has run his Ibeza on revo software for a long while now and the car gets used for road tests for customers so is abused I an sure.

Car manufacturers test most of their products on the public (new coil pack design etc). Most things can be modelled and calculated without the need for long term testing. Some major car companied do not have the budget to do the long term testing to satisfy you so there's no way any tuners have. Lets face it even Microsoft cant get it right first time. (just how many windows updates will there be?)

The company I work for make high speed rotating equipment. Due to the low volume nature of the business, our products are tested in the field by our customers. Do we have many failiures? No!. This is because most mechanical systems can have their stress limits calculated and are designed with significant safety factors.

The drive train components of your car have design max torque loadings which are documented, and have some safety margin.
It is very rare that anything is designed with a safety factor of less than 2 (though often much greater) to allow for shock loadings.

If you double your cars torque then you are eating up some of that safety factor, but rarely all of it. The safety factor on some very high performance cars may be a little lower, because as I have said in my earlier post their are limits to what you can package within a standard car platform.

If you're worried about chip tuning your car then don't do it!!! There are plenty of us out here who will test these products with no problems and some big smiles. There are others like bill who will push the boundaries and find out for the rest of us what is possible, in the full knowledge that he is pushing the limits.

RobT

06-03-2003, 17:23

Originally posted by GtiT
Rob
I would think that the revo Ibeza software is among the most tested (in house) out of any out there. Rich has run his Ibeza on revo software for a long while now and the car gets used for road tests for customers so is abused I an sure.

So why arn't we hearing about it from Revo then ? They are following the thread.

edc

06-03-2003, 17:28

Originally posted by RobT
So why arn't we hearing about it from Revo then ? They are following the thread.

Cos nobody's asked till now. Ppl just cared about how much power they could get and how fast their car would be.

You may have started a new trend in line of questioning towards tuners :D

RobT

06-03-2003, 17:30

Originally posted by edc

You may have started a new trend in line of questioning towards tuners :D

If so its been worth the typing !

Cheers

Rob

Revo Mitchell

06-03-2003, 17:32

Tuning cars (back when Adam were a lad) used to be accompanied with lots of understanding of the engine and driveline package - and often in association with racing programs. The firms did LOTS of development. The current vogue in chipping gives large power gains with compariatively little understanding of the overall package IMO and in the year to come I fear we will hear of many more examples of cars with knackered clutches, gearboxes, wheel bearings, driveshafts etc. I guess we will see.

FYI.. and with regard to Mitchells earlier statement, our company consists of qualified technicians, engineers (both mechanical and electronic) and engine specialists going back to late 80’s BTCC days, we also have race car builders with many victories and a couple of championships under their belts. But does all this race car expertise help to evaluate software? …. Yes in someway, but it doesn’t require track testing to do so. I’ll tell you what we don’t do! We don’t buy in our source code or put out our checksums for calculations to specialists like some of our competitors ;-) . Everything we do, we do in house with our own staff.

Thanks for the info on the RS4 testing, which seems a little short in timescale to me, but what I asked about above was what testing has been done by you guys for the Seat Ibiza programs that you sell - and the Leon come to think of it. Surely you must have data on the thorough testing you will have undertaken with these cars before releasing the programs for sale...
Here is some information we would liked to have released at our convenience to maximise its marketing potential. However with this thread going on like it is now, this is probably an opportune time!

SEAT Technocar SA in Greece will be the official and exclusive supplier of REVO Technik software for Greece and some of the Greek Islands. SEAT’s technical department started testing REVO software in early June 2002 for the Ibiza, Leon, Toledo 1.8T, Leon 4WD and more recently the Leon R. Testing was carried out over a 4 month period with our staff making many visits. Testing and tuning in the hot summer Athens climate with lesser quality fuel can be a good proving ground. SEAT requested and received or relevant technical data and logging for the vehicles in question before passing off the product. SEAT Technocar hope to have all twenty of their main SEAT Force Dealers set up by the end of March to serve the Greek public with REVO software.

Hopefully this will answer your question?

Rob… Sorry for the rant but you seem to be directing this to REVO and not the software market in general!

Very best regards

Revo Mark

06-03-2003, 17:35

Sorry the last post was from me. Mitchell had used my PC and not logged out.

regards

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 17:36

The RS4 gearbox is fine. My problem was a bushing in the shifter linkage that decided it wanted its freedom.

OOOH, I was sooo close. Nearly diagnosed it right :D

Just for the insomniacs amongst you the following product legislation :-

Sale of goods act 1979 - ammended 1984?
Sale and supply of goods act 1994
Limitiation act 1980
Supply of goods and services act 1982
Latend damage act 1986 (although i'm pretty sure REVo don't tune semi-detached houses! :D

Dor

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 17:38

Rob… Sorry for the rant but you seem to be directing this to REVO and not the software market in general!

Fortunate you have a dedicated forum section then init :p

Dor.

edc

06-03-2003, 17:39

Originally posted by Dormouse
OOOH, I was sooo close. Nearly diagnosed it right :D

Just for the insomniacs amongst you the following product legislation :-

Sale of goods act 1979 - ammended 1984?
Sale and supply of goods act 1994
Limitiation act 1980
Supply of goods and services act 1982
Latend damage act 1986 (although i'm pretty sure REVo don't tune semi-detached houses! :D

Dor

I've read it all before but I don't know it all but I doubt any of this legisaltion will help unless there is a specific defect with Revo (or whatever software) and that whatever consequential damage occurs can be pieced together into the causal chain and be solely attributed to the software.

RobT

06-03-2003, 17:40

Originally posted by Revo Mitchell
FYI.. and with regard to Mitchells earlier statement, our company consists of qualified technicians, engineers (both mechanical and electronic) and engine specialists going back to late 80’s BTCC days, we also have race car builders with many victories and a couple of championships under their belts. But does all this race car expertise help to evaluate software? …. Yes in someway, but it doesn’t require track testing to do so. I’ll tell you what we don’t do! We don’t buy in our source code or put out our checksums for calculations to specialists like some of our competitors ;-) . Everything we do, we do in house with our own staff.

Here is some information we would liked to have released at our convenience to maximise its marketing potential. However with this thread going on like it is now, this is probably an opportune time!

SEAT Technocar SA in Greece will be the official and exclusive supplier of REVO Technik software for Greece and some of the Greek Islands. SEAT’s technical department started testing REVO software in early June 2002 for the Ibiza, Leon, Toledo 1.8T, Leon 4WD and more recently the Leon R. Testing was carried out over a 4 month period with our staff making many visits. Testing and tuning in the hot summer Athens climate with lesser quality fuel can be a good proving ground. SEAT requested and received or relevant technical data and logging for the vehicles in question before passing off the product. SEAT Technocar hope to have all twenty of their main SEAT Force Dealers set up by the end of March to serve the Greek public with REVO software.

Hopefully this will answer your question?

Rob… Sorry for the rant but you seem to be directing this to REVO and not the software market in general!

Very best regards

Thankyou for this and my apologies if this thread did become Revo directed, this was not intentional. However, what you have done is taken the lead here and provided us, the public, with exactly the kind of information that we can use to make informed decisions when selecting suppliers of tuning solutions. Hopefully other tuners can also see the value in this.

Cheers

Rob

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 17:41

Helpful or not that's the only redress in law people have.

Dor.

ZBOYD

06-03-2003, 17:46

Originally posted by Dormouse
Fortunate you have a dedicated forum section then init :p

Dor.

Just to clarify, that all tuning companies that serve the members on these forums are very welcome to have their own forum/threads.

But those official forums, must be connected to professional staff of the company in subject.

As REVO have dedicated the time and made staff available to the forum to answer the questions directly, it was deemed by the admins, that this area would be simpler for all involved, not just REVO but anyone interested in chip tuning and the REVO product.

As was said originally, if any other tuning companies wish to contact us, and have their own subject forum, they are very welcome to it, but must dedicate some time to it, as otherwise whats the point.

Regards

slim_boy_fat

06-03-2003, 17:46

Originally posted by RobT
Thankyou for this and my apologies if this thread did become Revo directed, this was not intentional. Rob

What do you mean Revo directed....Whats the name of this particular forum? Yes thats right....Anything thats on this should be Revo directed and like any quality controled company they shouldn't have a problem with people asking questions.

Saul

06-03-2003, 17:48

Originally posted by slim_boy_fat
What do you mean Revo directed....Whats the name of this particular forum? Yes thats right....Anything thats on this should be Revo directed and like any quality controled company they shouldn't have a problem with people asking questions.

Yup very true, and thats why they've answered ;)

edc

06-03-2003, 17:48

Originally posted by Dormouse
Helpful or not that's the only redress in law people have.

Dor.

So, not much really then. That legislation tends to be aimed towards consumers under duress, where companies have acted inappropriately and outside of the law or where the consumer is 'tricked'. This rarely happens with a product and tends to be a contractual issue or where one party has not met their obligations.

Rage

06-03-2003, 17:58

Here is some information we would liked to have released at our convenience to maximise its marketing potential. However with this thread going on like it is now, this is probably an opportune time!

SEAT Technocar SA in Greece will be the official and exclusive supplier of REVO Technik software for Greece and some of the Greek Islands. SEAT’s technical department started testing REVO software in early June 2002 for the Ibiza, Leon, Toledo 1.8T, Leon 4WD and more recently the Leon R. Testing was carried out over a 4 month period with our staff making many visits. Testing and tuning in the hot summer Athens climate with lesser quality fuel can be a good proving ground. SEAT requested and received or relevant technical data and logging for the vehicles in question before passing off the product. SEAT Technocar hope to have all twenty of their main SEAT Force Dealers set up by the end of March to serve the Greek public with REVO software.

Thats one hell of an endorsement I'm sure everyone will agree.

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 18:21

Originally posted by RobT
Hopefully other tuners can also see the value in this.
Cheers
Rob

OR... They can continue to claim TUV this, warranty that and expect people to belive its all going to be 100% tickity-boo, whilst relieving them of mucho mula, and then forgetting what customer service is about..

Ewww. Bit polictical there eh?? Touch of the Ben Eltons crept in..
Wonder who I am refering to.. :p

At least REVO are up for discussing things and stuff.... which is nice :)

Good they have a plot here, bad in that they are now targets...

Rock and Roll....
Woohooo wind it up and lets have some fun :D :D :D

Bill

slim_boy_fat

06-03-2003, 18:28

i dont think its bad that they are now targets i am sure that they will think its good and have a good opertunity to market there producs.

Debating issues is the only way to get all the facts.

It shows Revo think its products are good, an they are not afraid to hide.

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 18:29

So, not much really then. That legislation tends to be aimed towards consumers under duress, where companies have acted inappropriately and outside of the law or where the consumer is 'tricked'. This rarely happens with a product and tends to be a contractual issue or where one party has not met their obligations.

Not at all, it simply aims to protect the rights of the consumer when
purchasing goods. It gives the right to return goods that are not fit for purpose or satisfactory quality. Most cases simply apply to goods that have broken or not been assembled correctly or premeturely failed. In which case whilst the retailer is not neccesarity at fault they are liable as 'reseller'. In fact if 100% of consumer disputes could be handled 'reasonably' by both parties there would be no need for any consumer legislation at all.

The Acts exist to protect the customer after the acceptance and consideration have been effected.

Dor hugs his statutary rights :D

Cheers

Dor.

P.S Sorry about going off thread
P.P.S Didn't mean to imply anything by mentioning REVO having there own forum bit - it's a good idea considering the number of questions aimed at them.

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 18:32

warranty that and expect people to belive its all going to be 100% tickity-boo

'Tickity-Boo'

Dor makes a mental note that Bill may infact be much older than previously thought.

Cheers

Dor (Whippersnapper)

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 19:00

:laff:

Yep... Deffo feeling like an old Git :D

Bahhh Humbug!

Now where's that solid Rocket Booster.... gotta get me some more speed!
:p
Bill

edc

06-03-2003, 19:17

Originally posted by Dormouse
Not at all, it simply aims to protect the rights of the consumer when
purchasing goods. It gives the right to return goods that are not fit for purpose or satisfactory quality. Most cases simply apply to goods that have broken or not been assembled correctly or premeturely failed. In which case whilst the retailer is not neccesarity at fault they are liable as 'reseller'. In fact if 100% of consumer disputes could be handled 'reasonably' by both parties there would be no need for any consumer legislation at all.

The Acts exist to protect the customer after the acceptance and consideration have been effected.

Dor hugs his statutary rights :D

Cheers

Dor.

P.S Sorry about going off thread
P.P.S Didn't mean to imply anything by mentioning REVO having there own forum bit - it's a good idea considering the number of questions aimed at them.

Exactly. I was trying to keep it on topic by highlighting that whether Revo or whoever's software breaks your car then there are very few pieces of legislation which you can rely on. If sofwtare does break drive train components, so what, that's not a defect in the software. The software does exactly what it says on the tin: more power, more torque, quicker car. Nothing misleading here. It woud be so if it was sold as 'makes your car last longer' or 'will not damage your car', but we all know this is not the case.

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 20:42

Welcome to SEATCUPRA.NET Legal Advisers.

Dor & EDC at your service :D

Now where's that solid Rocket Booster.... gotta get me some more speed!

Umnn....was inspecting some last week!!! :D :D

Dor.

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 20:48

Originally posted by Dormouse
Welcome to SEATCUPRA.NET Legal Advisers.

Dor & EDC at your service :D

Umnn....was inspecting some last week!!! :D :D

Dor.

LOL
You an Iraqi weapons inspector on the side Dor?

:p
Bill

Fl@pper

06-03-2003, 20:51

[Car Journey Diversion]

DADDDDDDDDDDD are we nearly there yet ?

DADDDDDDDDDDD are we nearly there yet ?

DADDDDDDDDDDD are we nearly there yet ?

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 20:56

You an Iraqi weapons inspector on the side Dor?

Nope, just inspect out own :)

Cheers

Dor

edc

06-03-2003, 21:21

No 'legal advice' here, just opinion based on my reading law at uni(not much consumer stuff though).

Dormouse

06-03-2003, 21:24

No 'legal advice' here, just opinion based on my reading law at uni(not much consumer stuff though).

It was a joke...HAHAHAHA? :p

Dor.

RichardBW

06-03-2003, 22:51

I spend some time away from my PC and miss all the fun.

Beleive it or not I actually missed all this due to testing cars and software!

The RS4 linkage seems to be all down to a 13mm nut coming loose (not the Mitch type)

ibizacupra

06-03-2003, 23:18

that must be a relief..

Not $$ worry after all.

Let the thrashing (erm - testing) continue :D
Bill

GJ18T

06-03-2003, 23:22

/brings topic back online/

Anyway, to come back to the original subject. I think it is
safe to say that the Revo software is tested as well as
possible by them within the limits of what would be reasonable
and fundable (would you pay 1000 quid extra for a full warranty
from Revo?).
Having too many different aspects of what can go wrong with a car,
I wouldn't expect Revo to pay for anything except if it was a clear
software fault and not a misengineered or faulty part on my car which would break after 30.000 km with the Revo sofware instead of after
50.000 km with the standard program.
I mean, if nothing went wrong in the factory then there wouldn't be any recalls, would there? And that's beside the fact that cars get engineered and tested and when they go into production some pencil licker decides he can save 2 quid on a vital part in your gearbox and you wind up at the side of the road wondering what on earth went wrong....

Cheers,
GJ.

RobT

07-03-2003, 08:48

Originally posted by Revo Mitchell
FYI.. and with regard to Mitchells earlier statement, our company consists of qualified technicians, engineers (both mechanical and electronic) and engine specialists going back to late 80’s BTCC days, we also have race car builders with many victories and a couple of championships under their belts. But does all this race car expertise help to evaluate software? …. Yes in someway, but it doesn’t require track testing to do so. I’ll tell you what we don’t do! We don’t buy in our source code or put out our checksums for calculations to specialists like some of our competitors ;-) . Everything we do, we do in house with our own staff.

Here is some information we would liked to have released at our convenience to maximise its marketing potential. However with this thread going on like it is now, this is probably an opportune time!

SEAT Technocar SA in Greece will be the official and exclusive supplier of REVO Technik software for Greece and some of the Greek Islands. SEAT’s technical department started testing REVO software in early June 2002 for the Ibiza, Leon, Toledo 1.8T, Leon 4WD and more recently the Leon R. Testing was carried out over a 4 month period with our staff making many visits. Testing and tuning in the hot summer Athens climate with lesser quality fuel can be a good proving ground. SEAT requested and received or relevant technical data and logging for the vehicles in question before passing off the product. SEAT Technocar hope to have all twenty of their main SEAT Force Dealers set up by the end of March to serve the Greek public with REVO software.

Hopefully this will answer your question?

Rob… Sorry for the rant but you seem to be directing this to REVO and not the software market in general!

Very best regards

Hi

Forgot to say last night that please dont think this will do - its a good start - as you compile further longevity data for cars that have been modified, I hope you will share it with us - it could be a very good selling point as some peoples fears could be easily answered and you could sell more installs !

Also, if Seat Greece are ok with honouring Seat warranties when the cars have been fitted with Revo software (which is what you are saying I take it ?), why not Seat UK also ? Have you approached them ?

Greece is in the EU so presumably if you went to Greece and bought a Revo modified Seat, Seat UK would have to honour the warranty on that car for at least the first year. So why not cover the cars in this country in the first place.

Cheers

Rob

edc

07-03-2003, 09:09

Originally posted by RobT
Hi

Greece is in the EU so presumably if you went to Greece and bought a Revo modified Seat, Seat UK would have to honour the warranty on that car for at least the first year. So why not cover the cars in this country in the first place.

SEAT UK and SEAT Greece are seperate organisations. If you buy a car in Greece your warranty will be with SEAT Greece. Unless there is some sort of cooperation betweenthe UK and Greece then you'll have todeal direct with SEAT Greece. Eg if you bought something in M&S here you wouldn't be able to claim a refund their Paris store. The warranties I bet aren't issued by the SEAT group or parent company but by the UK 'franchise'. Most electronics manufacturers have multi-country warranty systems but they are specifically set-up like that.

ibizacupra

07-03-2003, 09:35

Pan European Warranties...
New Legislation I believe....

and Block Exemption..... wonder what the actual effects would be? and how tedious it would be to actually get anywhere.

Interesting question.
Imports will be in the same catagory I suppose. (ie any EU country)

Bill

RobT

07-03-2003, 09:47

Originally posted by edc
SEAT UK and SEAT Greece are seperate organisations. If you buy a car in Greece your warranty will be with SEAT Greece. Unless there is some sort of cooperation betweenthe UK and Greece then you'll have todeal direct with SEAT Greece. Eg if you bought something in M&S here you wouldn't be able to claim a refund their Paris store. The warranties I bet aren't issued by the SEAT group or parent company but by the UK 'franchise'. Most electronics manufacturers have multi-country warranty systems but they are specifically set-up like that.

I was under the impression that there was new legislation on this - if you buy a car in germany or holland then you have at least 1 yrs warranty in any EU country - same would go for greece.

Anyone know the exact details on this rather than guesses ?

Rob