View Full Version : Revo & Insurance
For all you guys already revo'd - What did you tell your insurance company ? How do they qualify the modification ? Did your policy go up a HUGE amount ?
Just wondering before I take the plunge & pay out £1k for Revo & extra insurance.....
Ask yourself the following questions
1)what would happen if I injured someone?
2)what would happen to me if I injured someone?
3)Why are the insurance co. such tw**s
4)Will the insurance co. be able to tell its chipped if involved in a crash?
My advice and this is in NO way endorsed by revo.
how the hell will the insurance know:confused:
P.s. hope your not insured by Tesco-they are pants
I want to tell 'em, morally, I think it's wrong not to, but you're right - how are they going to know ??
I just found out my current broker wants £5k for the 210-250bhp increase. Stoopid eh ?
Any thoughts anyone ?
If you don't insure the Revo then you can't get it back after the event (unless Revo are very kind and will re-flash your ECU on production of a receipt - in which case I might consider not telling the inurer).
Insurance assesors are becoming better at finding unclaimed mods on
your cars these days-but remember they are in no way mechanics
and will"usually" just have a quick look at fairly visable things
like wheels and exhaust and such.
Don't think he's going to have a diagnostics thingy and all the bits
some how!
But please don't take my advice and blame me if things go tits-up!:redface:
I've said it before that insurers aren't stupid. They're fully aware that Revo exists and that 1.8T cars can have it. You don't think they will be a little suspect if your car has some visible mods? We all know the 1.8T is a 'modding' car and so will they.
Originally posted by Deejay
Anyway I have said my party piece and I leave the rest to your imagination what I have done regarding insurance:think:
I'm thinking.
As a thought, whenever I see a 1.8T I wonder what chip it has under the bonnet, as will many other people around - insurer or not.
Originally posted by edc
I'm thinking.
As a thought, whenever I see a 1.8T I wonder what chip it has under the bonnet, as will many other people around - insurer or not.
Well physically its the standard one:p
Drystone
20-03-2003, 14:38
Okay guys I'm looking for the definitive answer here.
You get the Revo treatment, you have a smash, it's a bad one maybe someone seriously hurt/killed (God forbid any of this by the way). Insurance company decides to have a VERY close look at the ECU. Can they find that Revo have added their code to the chip?? The fact that code is added even though the original factory code is unaltered must mean that there is extra data on the ECU. Surely this can be seen by someone with the correct diagnostic tool.
I'm hoping that one of the Revo guys will be able to answer this one. I've looked through all the threads on the forum and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to the question of 'Is Revo really undetectable?' anywhere.
Other things to think about, could the insurers contact Revo themselves and ask, 'Have you modded this car?' or check your credit card statements to see if you've paid for mods?
I guess theres only one solution for true peace of mind....tell the insurers.:(
Drystone
I was under the impression that the Revo data is encrypted and any attempts to download it will reveal random data. However this should not be taken as an endorsement for not telling your insurance co.
Originally posted by Drystone
Surely this can be seen by someone with the correct diagnostic tool.
Drystone
You are in effect just "flash" programming it,So I would be suprised if the insurance would be able to find it.Maybe I should take them revo stickers off the back of my car:hammer:
Originally posted by Drystone
Other things to think about, could the insurers contact Revo themselves and ask, 'Have you modded this car?
No, I sure revo wont dish out this sort of info to every tom dick and harry
Originally posted by Drystone
I guess theres only one solution for true peace of mind....tell the insurers.:(
Drystone
BINGO!!
Understand your concerns but aint life a gamble anyway?
At the end of the day its your choice... YOU have to decide to tell them or not, personaly I wouldn't - but this would be at my own risk.
Originally posted by Rage
I was under the impression that the Revo data is encrypted and any attempts to download it will reveal random data. However this should not be taken as an endorsement for not telling your insurance co.
Doesn't that mean you can still 'see' it?? All the other stuff which you can read will be kosher VAG/SEAT and there shouldn't be any random rubbish there, right?
Drystone
20-03-2003, 14:52
Thanks for the reply Rage. Would this 'random data' be enough for the insurers to say 'aye aye this cars been modified' though????
Surely the presence of this extra data, even if it's encrypted, is evidence enough.
I guess maybe only the insurance companies themselves could answer this.:confused:
Deejay, you're right, life is a gamble. Guess it just comes down to conscience at the end of the day (mine's too active;) )
Drystone
Random data could be just that. Revo would be better placed to answer what the data looks like and if there is normally crap there. I don't know the inner workings of any ECU or the ins and outs of programming eeproms.
Originally posted by Drystone
Thanks for the reply Rage. Would this 'random data' be enough for the insurers to say 'aye aye this cars been modified' though????
Surely the presence of this extra data, even if it's encrypted, is evidence enough.
I guess maybe only the insurance companies themselves could answer this.:confused:
Drystone
If it ain't SEAT data and SEAT confirm this the the fact is somebody other than SEAT has had a play. It is then irrelevant whether the code is Revo or whatever cos there has been some attempt to mod. Did you tell them this? No? Oh dear - insurance voided.
Please Revo Kev,hurry up and get back online ans sort this arguement out!:scream:
Drystone
20-03-2003, 15:01
As I originally said I think we need an answer from the Revo techies on this one.
Being fair though, as Revo wouldn't advocate not telling your insurer, they don't have to prove that their product is undetectable. I certainly have no worries about the dealer finding out that the car has been modded, muppets!
I'd be interested to hear what Revo have to say all the same.:help:
Drystone
And that brings us back to second hand cars. If you sell your Revo'd car having switched it back to standard using your sps module. There is no performance code running. Joe B the new owner then kills someone and the insurers investigate find the random data still on the ECU and say oy you nooooooooo we won't honour your claim cos you attempted to mod the ECU. The presence of random data could be anything.... left over manufacturing stuff etc etc
I am just playing the advocate here. And not in anyway recommending not telling the insurers. But should the worst happen then you may wish you had payed the extra money.
sportbilly
20-03-2003, 15:05
OK , what if you buy a car that has been revo'd but switched to normal and you are unaware of this ... what then ...
Its a gamble nowadays no matter what you do!
Originally posted by neg
OK , what if you buy a car that has been revo'd but switched to normal and you are unaware of this ... what then ...
Its a gamble nowadays no matter what you do!
If you don't know and never suspect, you have acted in good faith. Policies say you must declare all 'known' mods.
I think the bottom line is here insurance companies will stop at anything so NOT to pay out.
I have heard of instances where people have put go faster stripes on and they have been told "see ya,wouldn't wann be ya!" by the insurance!
Joels change your settings so I can send you a PM-secret information
coming your way!!!
LEO LION R
20-03-2003, 15:40
" I was just passing by a Revo dealer one day and saw the sign, so i pulled in and parked and went in for a chat for about 10 minutes. When i came back to the car it was still in the same place, and not a techie (sorry don't know what you like being called) in sight, so i thought i will come back one day and get it chipped. Low and behold as soon as i pull away it feels different, did i know that anything had been modified - NO, and i couldn't say for sure what had happened "
Do you think that would wash ?
Deejay - tis done....
I still have no idea of how to 'classify' any Revo mod to the insurance boys when they ask..... & how much I could pay extra - 'on average' ?
Originally posted by LEO LION R
" I was just passing by a Revo dealer one day and saw the sign, so i pulled in and parked and went in for a chat for about 10 minutes. When i came back to the car it was still in the same place, and not a techie (sorry don't know what you like being called) in sight, so i thought i will come back one day and get it chipped. Low and behold as soon as i pull away it feels different, did i know that anything had been modified - NO, and i couldn't say for sure what had happened "
Do you think that would wash ?
So you knowingly let a non-SEAT company tinker with your car?
You knew you were getting it chipped but you didn't tell?
If you were unsure why didn't you ask?
Did you not ask Revo any questions at all?
If you are that much non-tehnical how do you know who Revo are and what they do?
Did you pay them for something to be done?
Originally posted by edc
So you knowingly let a non-SEAT company tinker with your car?
You knew you were getting it chipped but you didn't tell?
If you were unsure why didn't you ask?
Did you not ask Revo any questions at all?
If you are that much non-tehnical how do you know who Revo are and what they do?
Did you pay them for something to be done?
God,you are a killjoy!
Are you an insurance man by any chance:confused:
LEO LION R
20-03-2003, 16:03
" So you knowingly let a non-SEAT company tinker with your car? "
no - all i did was leave it unlocked in their car park.
" You knew you were getting it chipped but you didn't tell? "
i only went in for a chat about chipping, they were so nice and hlpful that i had a cup of coffee a a chocy biscuit.
"If you were unsure why didn't you ask? "
I was running late, and haven't been back since.
" Did you not ask Revo any questions at all? "
Yes lots, but mostly about other cars and upgrades.
" If you are that much non-tehnical how do you know who Revo are and what they do? "
Like i say i saw the sign as i passed and thought it looked interesting, so popped in for some info.
" Did you pay them for something to be done? "
Can you prove it ?
Come on guys, this is getting a little 'off thread'.
Has anyone got an idea of how the unsurance people classify the modification ? And/Or any experience in an uplift of their premium ?
I'm really 'torn' at the moment, I WANT/NEED the Revo program, but something is really nagging me into getting the insurance sorted for it.
Where's the Revo men for a bit of worldly advice ?
pretty certain "most insurance co.s will charge an amount up to a
designated level of performance increase
Ie allowed up to 10% gain
So ibiza cupra 20vt 156 bhp
you can take up to 175bhp ish(anymore and you pay more)
If you where to go over this then you would pay more!
but you can just claim it only increases it by less than 10 %
They will usually say "what does that modification do"
Your response should allways be "not much" as with any mod!
I'm not a killjoy cos I'm not stopping you guys getting and using Revo. Not telling insurers could lead to insurance fraud and I know there are some ppl who have a more guilty conscience than others. You know how difficult it can be to make a claim but to try and make one and get 'found out' can be even more tricky. If you're really so unsure and nervous about not telling your insurers then you may well be a crap liar when it comes to the crunch. Others are much more blase and more confident of 'evasion'. Danny, you yourself posted about how insurance co's like to 'stiff you'. I'm just trying to point out that you may be 'stiffed' if you try and 'stiff' your insurer.
Leo, IMO the scenario you paint is really stretching the imagination. I know there are some very ignorant ppl in this world but I'm not sure there are many as ignorant as the person in your scenario. In any case, that scenario doesn't work for anybody on this forum cos they obviously feel the need to read about it and maybe ask questions. Let's face it, when you pay money for something you want to know what you are getting for it so to just roll up at a Revo distributor and pay £x for tea, biscuits, a seat and a chat is a bit odd. If there are that many ppl like that out there Revo are onto a winner cos they could leave the car alone have a chat and a cup of tea and voila £600 thank you. You see these 'watchdog' programmes all the time about double glazing or whatever and consumers always ask questions. Leo, you yourself for example have asked lots of questions about Revo in the past.
Joels,
I enquired about the extra cost to my insurance in modifing my Ibiza Cupra a few weeks back when I was re-newing my policy. I was quoted an extra £15 per year!!!, on top of my already good premium :D :D
I was enquiring specifically about a Revo upgrade and they just put it under 'Engine Management modification' (chip) with a 15-24% BHP increase. I'm 26 with 7 years no claims bonus and currently pay £570 a year through Admiral.
Lets just hope they keep to their word as I will be phoning them as soon as I have been Revo'd, which will be as soon as Revo issue the '6K0906032' program for the Ibiza Cupra..(cough, nudge, cough) ;)
So if this quote is anything to go by, I certainly will have no problem in declaring it and being a fully covered, happy customer to Mr Admiral!
:cheers:
Originally posted by Mark66
Lets just hope they keep to their word as I will be phoning them as soon as I have been Revo'd, which will be as soon as Revo issue the '6K0906032' program for the Ibiza Cupra..(cough, nudge, cough) ;)
How do you know which code you need - because they didnt have the right one for my Ibiza either :mad:
Originally posted by Phill
How do you know which code you need - because they didnt have the right one for my Ibiza either :mad:
When I went down to Fontain in Iver last week, they plugged in their laptop which brought up my ECU type (6K0906032). Alex then looked up his available programs for the Ibiza Cupra. He had a 6K0906032aa and a 6K0906032ab program. On phoning Revo we found out that I needed the 6K0906032 program and that the others would not work. Revo said that this should be out by early April (I think). If you check their website it lists five different programs. 3 for 1.8T, 1 for Cupra R and 1 for the new Ibiza 130 pd.
See my previous post :http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15048
:cheers:
Shock_Xe
20-03-2003, 23:45
I think the word your looking for is "Plausable Denyability!"
"Chip??? What Chip!!! Seat didnt mention any changes/tampering on their diagnostic software and there is no physical evidence!!! Just thought it went well!!! :p It was like that when i bought it!!!"
My Company said it would be a 1% increase on my policy for every 1% increase in power on the car! so a Policy of £1,300 per year and an increase from 156bhp to 210bhp being + 54bhp = 29% increase being an additional £375 on the policy
:eek: :eek: dont think so!!!!!!
Originally posted by Shock_Xe
My Company said it would be a 1% increase on my policy for every 1% increase in power on the car! so a Policy of £1,300 per year and an increase from 156bhp to 210bhp being + 54bhp = 29% increase being an additional £375 on the policy
:eek: :eek: dont think so!!!!!!
they aint exactly going to put your car on a dyno are they just tell em the new code irons out the flat spots and makes it nicer to drive :D
Shock_Xe
21-03-2003, 00:19
Originally posted by Phill
they aint exactly going to put your car on a dyno are they just tell em the new code irons out the flat spots and makes it nicer to drive :D
Telling them that is as bad as saying you havent got it, cause I would have to tell them it is a performance enhancing chip. They could quite easily see revo/other chip tuners site that it would avg 200bhp!
The problem will be that Revo have a website and there's a lot of info about on how much power a 1.8T Revo'd Ibiza will make. Add to that the fact that there wil be lots of other Ibiza owners with Revo who do insure the car properly, then your insurer will know immediately that you are 'lying' and may void your insurance. It might be too late when you find out whether your insurance is void or not cos by then you might actually need it.
LEO LION R
21-03-2003, 08:20
Rolling Road figures are renown for not being 100% acurate, so that's why Revo haven't guaranteed they power increase for any of their cars - it's always in the region of xxx bhp
AAs i've said on many many threads before (listening edc) it is always best to declare it, this thread was more about is it detectable, can insurance tell - the only people that know that are revo & insurance companies, niether of whom are willing to enter into this thread.
:cheers:
( Power increase doesn't always mean performance increase, does a chipped car towing a carvan go faster than a standard car with driver ? )
My question originally was 'what do you tell the insurance company', how do they classify a Revo upgrade ? I just want to know so I can declare it, or at least get some quotes for it.
LEO LION R
21-03-2003, 10:14
'ECU upgrade', or, 'power upgrade' i'd guess.
Then they'll either say ' we don't insure for that' or ' what is the power increase'
The only company that deals with it reasonably, that anyone has mentioned in the past is Greenlight. But it all seems to depend on the person that you get on the end of the phone.
Some have said £60 increase, and others £200+ increase.
I think the ones with low increases may be just a low increase on a higher premium (ie. not necesarily the lowest quote + increase - unfortunately)
So as a very rough average and based on comments from the recent past, a 25% power icrease = 25% premium increase, if they'll insure for it at all.
The fact of the matter is, insurance companies do not have the facility to calculate a reasonable costs/risks for such mods, and so add on the first thing they think of ( % of power increase) and in no way can possibly be the apportioned increased risk. They just don't know what the risk increase is.
The logic of them is more power = more risk, which is what anoys customers because it is simply not true as a direct proportion calculation, far too many other factors involved in a calculation to be able to say that.
almost £800 for the software and SPS1, and another £200+/- for insurance, should be budgeted for.
Maybe Revo could give a formal answer to how the upgrade should or could be descibed to aid insurance quotes.
:cheers:
Originally posted by LEO LION R
Rolling Road figures are renown for not being 100% acurate, so that's why Revo haven't guaranteed they power increase for any of their cars - it's always in the region of xxx bhp
I'd say the reason why REVO don't guarantee a specific increase is much simpler - they don't know what each car will get (you don't get a RR session as part of the price). It's all guestimates.
I'm fairly sure a RR is more acurate than a "in the region of" guess ;)
:cheers:
Originally posted by joels
My question originally was 'what do you tell the insurance company', how do they classify a Revo upgrade ? I just want to know so I can declare it, or at least get some quotes for it.
As far as an insurer goes, it's a chip upgrade (regardless of how the software is altered) - but, a lot of people had more luck with mod-unfriendly insurers by saying things like "i've got a 15% increase in performance". Actually, with REVO, you don't have a clue - so you're not telling porkies when you say "about 15%" etc. How would you know without a RR session?
;)
Originally posted by dangel
Actually, with REVO, you don't have a clue - so you're not telling porkies when you say "about 15%" etc. How would you know without a RR session?
;)
Exactly.........
Those familiar with the "rolling road days" can tell you that you can
have an "off day" at the rollers,and if the buggers need proof of
BHP upgrade level,give them a copy of this!;)
however Revo is more nearer a 40% bhp upgrade if you have a good day!
Well i suppose you could run it on the rollers with no fans running through the front grill to get some reaaallly pants results (and a burnt engine?)
;)
LEO LION R
01-04-2003, 10:22
As I originally said I think we need an answer from the Revo techies on this one.
Being fair though, as Revo wouldn't advocate not telling your insurer, they don't have to prove that their product is undetectable. I certainly have no worries about the dealer finding out that the car has been modded, muppets!
I'd be interested to hear what Revo have to say all the same.:help:
Drystone
Taken from their FAQ section on the website today ;
QUESTION : Can the insurance company see that the car is modified?
ANSWER : Insurance companies, like dealers, use different methods of discovery when it comes to chipping. Some use dealer computers to inspect the ECU while others physically open the ECU to inspect the soldering on the chip.
In either event the software would be completely invisible.
Revo Technik does not condone the use of this technology for purposes of deceiving dealerships or insurance companies. Insurance and dealers need to be informed of any modification that may be in violation of warranty or coverage outside a policy. Our technology is designed to function in this stealth fashion to deter illegal copying, reverse engineering, and patent infringements.
I guess that is the official line, and so best to tell them.
QUESTION : Can the dealer see that my car is modified?
ANSWER : Not at all. Since there is no removal of any hardware there is no physical indication that the car has been modified. Engine electronics behave exactly as original and cannot be re-flashed by the dealer. The dealer computers cannot detect the software even with the latest versions of equipment. Since there are no permanent changes to the ECU then the factory original code can simply be reloaded.
The dealer cannot see something that truly isn’t there!
Revo Technik does not condone the use of this technology for purposes of deceiving dealerships or insurance companies. Insurance and dealers need to be informed of any modification that may be in violation of warranty or coverage outside a policy. Our technology is designed to function in this stealth fashion to deter illegal copying, reverse engineering, and patent infringements.
Except that they just said an insurance company can, so maybe the dealer can too :confused:
I just had an evil little thought. In America the DMCA prevents anyone decrpting software *period* and similar legislation exists in the EU too - so... if someone were to unpack REVO's software they'd er.. be breaking the law??
Nice one LEO LION R.
I think those statements will put a lot of peoples minds at rest.
Originally posted by LEO LION R
Except that they just said an insurance company can, so maybe the dealer can too :confused:
Where did they say that? I've not followed this thread for a week or so. Have I missed something?
From REVO's statements, I read them to mean "insurance companies (or dealers) have ways to detect normal chipping methods, BUT REVO is completely invisible/undetectable".
Cheers
AL
Originally posted by AL B
Nice one LEO LION R.
I think those statements will put a lot of peoples minds at rest.
Where did they say that? I've not followed this thread for a week or so. Have I missed something?
From REVO's statements, I read them to mean "insurance companies (or dealers) have ways to detect normal chipping methods, BUT REVO is completely invisible/undetectable".
Cheers
AL
At this moment in time, maybe. We all know how quickly technology evolves.
LEO LION R
01-04-2003, 13:35
Nice one LEO LION R.
I think those statements will put a lot of peoples minds at rest.
Where did they say that? I've not followed this thread for a week or so. Have I missed something?
No i think it's just because their website is being updated all the time.
From REVO's statements, I read them to mean "insurance companies (or dealers) have ways to detect normal chipping methods, BUT REVO is completely invisible/undetectable".
Your spot on there - i'm losing it big time today, this is the 2nd case of misreading text today - sorry. :redface:
:cheers:
slim_boy_fat
01-04-2003, 21:11
What did i say, glasses!!!!!!;)
As far as the warranty goes, I'm willing to risk it. At the end of the day, you may have to pay for some expensive work on your car if the dealer finds out & won't honour it.
Insurance - now that's a different matter. You could injure or kill someone in an accident & then be not insured. You could be sued personally, ending up in prison or paying something that could take years of salary to do so.
I just think it's morally wrong not to tell the insurers.
That's my two penneth....
Jimmyboy
01-04-2003, 22:53
I was under the impression that people who crash and dont have insurance get away with a just a slapped wrist all the time!
I've had insurance trouble in the past and then had a very minor accident. I was hit with 7 points and a £350 fine. But its not until you come to re-insure yourself that the punishment really hits. Insurance companies seem to take it very personally when you have an IN10 on your license.
Tell you insurers everything it may cost you more in the short term but if the worst should happen you'll be glad you did it.