View Full Version : A series of hesitations...
Hey all,
A question for those of you chipped...
Does anyone feel a series of hesitations (a bit like the power is coming on and off in bursts) whilst using full throttle at low revs in a high (5th, 6th) gear???
Since RSD did mine I have found that in certain circumstances - like when you have slowed to 40 on the m-way and are now speeding back up but cannot be bothered to change out of 6th - that I get these surges.
RSD claim that it is due to the Leon's rather oversensitive knock-sensor. Apparently when on full load it can sometimes back off and then readvance the timing giving the surges. They say it is rather hard to fix.
Personally it only ever bothers me every now and again (it's not that often I do 40 on the m-way :). However, when it does annoy me it really anoys me. I paid a k to get my car chipped to sort stuff like this out.
Anyone and ideas????
Cheers - Rich
There are a few of us now that are experiencing flat sports/hesitations etc on chipped cars.
See threads "Mega Flat Spot!!! Please Help" and "Wheels/Power Loss" in the Amythest section.
No-one knows what the problem is yet or how to fix it, but it does appear to be an intermittent problem.
Ben
leonvt2001
22-11-2001, 12:42
Hmmm.
This is starting to concern me - was going to get mine Oettinger'd - I am prepared to pay the price if the converison is faultless.
However, at the moment it looks as if the conversion has a few question marks over it.
Have either of the Upsolute Guys experienced similar problems?
Steve
I dont think any question marks should be held of the converstion, either Oettinger or Upsoloute.
My understanding of the problem is this. There is on some cars problems with hesitation, like the turbo cuts out and then cuts in again, indeed my car has the same problems, after having both the air mass meter and dump valve swapped the problem is still there.
Next step is the Knock sensor to see if this will cure the problem.
After you have had the conversion either Oettinger or Upsoloute whatever problem you have had will become more apparent.
You will notice it more, but this is not really attributed to the onversion, your car will still go like a bat out of hell, but the original problem, whatever that may be will be attenuated.
Thats my understanding.
I could be quite brutal, but im more sensible than that :)
Mine has had similar problems though recently, after changing the Air Filter to a RamAir foam, its much improved and smoother.
I can't say i blame the chip, because it isnt due to the chip, that the car has developed or developed this strange problem, I know this cause i was experiencing the same problem before i had the car chipped.
But the chip has really emphassised the effect, due to all that extra boost.
Now i've been trying to get a serious answer from someone for a long time, and got pushed from pillar to post, i was hoping that Oettinger could give a more qualified answer, maybe not a fix, but at least a cause.
I can say ive only heard within the last few months, of it being this knock sensor theory, which seems plausable, but for several months i was strung one excuse after an other. So i gave up in the end, and got some good info from Awesome Gti.
As i say ive recently had fitted a foam panel filter, which seems to have smoothed out this problem, and the car seems to have a really steady firm drive of power, and its suffering less from this hesistation, though it still does have the odd flutter.
I would'nt blame the chip, cause its a good product, but where i am dissapointed in Oettinger is it seems their lack of a solution, or even if there isnt one, an acknowledgement that it happens.
1. Maybe come up with a fix.
2. Say sorry its a fault and we'll do our best to come up with something.
Myself im living with it, and due to the alterations ive recently made, it seems to have cured or at least alievated the trouble.
But i did mention this several months back, and i warned at that time this would happen, and that more people would start to come out of the woodwork with simillar issues. I was ignored, as i probably will be now :)
Seems to be something though that is really only affecting Leon's, the following theorys are what ive been told.
1. MAF (unlikely, but still worth having checked)
2. Knock Sensor (more likely, and a few other tuners have said similar things)
3. Actuator wastegate on the Leon's Turbo (again a possibility, but this would require proving that the turbo is at fault, as its an entire turbo change)
4. Clifford Alarm (total fantasy)
5. ICE Installs (again total fantasy)
Nothing like a straight answer eh ;)
Good Luck hope you get some resolution to your queries, if you do please share them.
What i'd like to make clear is, that from what ive been told, its a fault affecting Leons in general, both modified or unmodified, and i can see it still being an issue on cars that have the Upsolute chip or AMD's or the RSD fitted Oettinger Chip, its not something that can be pinpointed on one particular tuner.
But Oettinger being this very well and long established tuner, and officially sanctioned by the VAG group, of which you pay that premium for your warranty and piece of mind, would try to be a bit more positive towards its customers. Maybe i ask too much, i dont know what other peoples views are, just thought they may get to the bottom of it.
Maybe they are, if so thats great :)
Mark - I hear you, and believe me I haven't ignored your words of wisdom and warning in the past.
I originally thought that the problems chip'ers had experienced where flat spots due to the MAF sensor. Satisfied that mine felt 'allright' I proceeded to get it chipped. I certainly didn't feel any of the effects before the cip (however, my dump valve was so shot I am suprised I felt anything!).
If others with Oettinger chips are also suffering the same effects then let us unite and contact Oettinger (or RSD?) and see if we can find a cure.
If it is the knock-sensor (which sounds plausable - see below) then great...only problem is - how to approach a dealer with a problem that has only been evident since you modified the car, expecting them to gladly give their time diagnosing it???
Cheers - Rich
(from above)....I beleive that it may be the knock-sensor. The surges that i feel are too soft to be the turbo cutting and then coming back in again. It only happens at max load and seems to have no bearing on engine speed. If the sensor was over adjusting the timing then I believe it would produce the effects felt.
HOWEVER, shurely the knock-sensor only gives info to the ECU and the ECU is responsible for the timing alteration. If this (and I believe so) is hte case then it is an Oettinger problem...
Hey guys,
I have sent the following mail to Tony at RSD (if anyone knows something he should).
To those considering the conversion I would say this. Oettinger are a very good firm, RSD even more so. The transformation from the standard car to the chipped one is breathtaking. I still would not hesitate to do the same thing again despite this problem.
------------------
Hi Tony,
I know it has been a while but this surging of power is really starting to annoy me...
I understand how the knock-sensor could be at fault and the explanation given certainly makes sense in my eyes. However, surely the knock-sensor delivers information to the ECU which then is responsible for the timing adjustment. What I don't understand is that if it is the ECU that does the timing changes then how come Oettinger could not 'fix' the problem when the car was chipped? I feel somewhat downheartened that a £1000 tuning package which is so perfect in all other areas can be let down by this one small problem.
If it is the knock-sensor alone then I can approach Seat with a warrantee problem. However, I strongly suspect that my Dealer will simply reply with the argument I have outlined above.
If you have had any advances in knowledge from Oettinger about this problem or a potential fix please let me know. Otherwise can you please advise me as to the best route to get this problem sorted out.
-----------------------
I'll let you know....
Rich
leonvt2001
22-11-2001, 15:38
Originally posted by Cupraman
I dont think any question marks should be held of the converstion, either Oettinger or Upsoloute.
(snip)
Yes, I understand that the chip is probably just revealing a fault that was previously masked by the standard cars lower state of tune.
My viewpoint as a potential "chipee" is as follows:
I can pay 1000 quid for the Oettinger package from Amethyst - my dealer, who will provide full support. People with the conversion love it but there are reports of "issues" - nobody seems to know what is causing the problems, so the full support of Amethyst / RSD / Oettinger does not provide much benefit.
I can pay 260 quid for the Upsolute chip. No issues reported (possibly due to only 2 (?) conversions being done on petrol cars). Not sure what degree of support Amethyst would supply if an Upsoluted car had problems (Graham?)
Don't get me wrong, I want the conversion, but at the moment I can't justify spending 1000 quid on the Oettinger package when there are unknowns involved.
Steve
ibizacupra
22-11-2001, 15:54
Originally posted by rakh1
Hey guys,
I have sent the following mail to Tony at RSD (if anyone knows something he should).
To those considering the conversion I would say this. Oettinger are a very good firm, RSD even more so. The transformation from the standard car to the chipped one is breathtaking. I still would not hesitate to do the same thing again despite this problem.
------------------
Hi Tony,
I know it has been a while but this surging of power is really starting to annoy me...
I understand how the knock-sensor could be at fault and the explanation given certainly makes sense in my eyes. However, surely the knock-sensor delivers information to the ECU which then is responsible for the timing adjustment. What I don't understand is that if it is the ECU that does the timing changes then how come Oettinger could not 'fix' the problem when the car was chipped? I feel somewhat downheartened that a £1000 tuning package which is so perfect in all other areas can be let down by this one small problem.
If it is the knock-sensor alone then I can approach Seat with a warrantee problem. However, I strongly suspect that my Dealer will simply reply with the argument I have outlined above.
If you have had any advances in knowledge from Oettinger about this problem or a potential fix please let me know. Otherwise can you please advise me as to the best route to get this problem sorted out.
-----------------------
I'll let you know....
Rich
When the knock sensor is triggering the ECU to "pinging" and retards the ignition advance, does it also clamp the max boost level down to 5psi.
As I have said on my own car, RSD'd, the flat spot that is experienced (rarely) always is accompanied by a max boost of only 5psi, where 12-17psi is the norm.
Graham (Swinny)> Your tech guys must have had some training and you must have access to the way these controls are applied, like what the knock sensor circuit actually triggers etc... Is it just ignition advance as per normally aspirated cars? or boost also?
What about the TCS signal and its control also? how does this work and what is the mechanism for boost limiting?
RSD/Oettinger must have this understanding, having produced a TUV approved product and be VW's "sporting-modification" partner of sorts.
knowing this will go a long way to curing it.
Bill
Guys,
Amethyst will be replacing my knock sensor next week. This is the next step on the road to getting the problem solved.
I feel pretty confident this will cure the problem.
I will post my results as soon as it is done.
Steve3961
22-11-2001, 18:15
Have any of you tried using a octane booster?
Pinking or pre-ignition is caused by fuel ignighting before it should and therefore causing detonation.
The knock sensors are trying to adjust the timing to suit our fuel but perhaps the chip was based on a higher octane fuel available in Germany???
I know Optimax is a higher octane than normal unleaded is anyone using this?
Also you can buy fuel additives from most motor factors that will raise octane ratings.
Just a thought.
Replacing the Knock sensor will almost definatly not cure the fault as these are on the self diagnosis function on 1551. Ie if there is something wrong with them it will register and save the fault in the ecu.
You can check the knock sensor's while driving along with 1551. There will be a readout of the timing which can be compared to a specification in the engine self diag book. If these don't match then its faulty.
Very unlikly to be this tho as ive worked on hundereds of TT's, S3's, A4's, and A6's all with the same engine fitted as you people and never once have i ever replaced or diagnosed a Knock sensor. So for all you people to all be having "Knock sensor faullts" is very unlikely.
Good luck!
with reference to the pedal synchronisation we had a few 1.4 models doing a similar thing , which brought on a fault light , summat to do with the speed too fast for the ecu , or vice versa
i'll check and see if the standard part has changed number , or has been made differently on newer models
may well be an idea for the turbo stutter problems ????
(we will get it in the end don't you worry)
ibizacupra
22-11-2001, 21:22
Originally posted by Steve3961
Have any of you tried using a octane booster?
Pinking or pre-ignition is caused by fuel ignighting before it should and therefore causing detonation.
The knock sensors are trying to adjust the timing to suit our fuel but perhaps the chip was based on a higher octane fuel available in Germany???
I know Optimax is a higher octane than normal unleaded is anyone using this?
Also you can buy fuel additives from most motor factors that will raise octane ratings.
Just a thought.
Replacing the Knock sensor will almost definatly not cure the fault as these are on the self diagnosis function on 1551. Ie if there is something wrong with them it will register and save the fault in the ecu.
You can check the knock sensor's while driving along with 1551. There will be a readout of the timing which can be compared to a specification in the engine self diag book. If these don't match then its faulty.
Very unlikly to be this tho as ive worked on hundereds of TT's, S3's, A4's, and A6's all with the same engine fitted as you people and never once have i ever replaced or diagnosed a Knock sensor. So for all you people to all be having "Knock sensor faullts" is very unlikely.
Good luck!
Just for the record.. I run my 210 Ibiza exclusively on Optimax now. Oettinger are German, German fuels are higher octane than UK (until Optimax appeared). Oettinger would odds on have developed maps for 98octane+.
I now rarely get these problems with 3500 miles on the clock. The engine and ECU systems and controls are elaborate, and no one I have come across yet, knows how and why they do what they do, or how they should actually work.
Being an inquisitive bugger I want to know now whatever it takes. Having mapped cars myself using DTA ECU's, I would be unhappy if I left it with the glitches people are experiencing. I would'nt be using a MAF though, nor fly by wire. Too many gizmos and a step too far IMHO at this time.
if you have'nt run optimax in your problem child 20VT, give it a go.. You have nothing to lose. If your motor is still young in the miles dept, don't condem it too soon.
Bill
:)
I've been running Optimax for quite a while now, and did experience a marked improvement.
My car is also well over a year old, but ive done a lot less miles than some peopl ewho have only had their cars a short time, my clock stands at 7600 miles so far from new.
And recently with the introduction of Optimax, and new Air Filter i seem to be getting a much more improved result, it still has its days when it hesitates, but touch wood seems to be improving all the time.
Maybe it is a trait of the engine that its a bit stuttery the first 10,000 miles say, but im just theorising, and i dont really want another theory. :p
Though i agree Bill, the more they jazz up the internals, and add little gimmicky electronics, the greater chance there is of strange things happening :p
I think all our VW brothers seem to have this problem more after having some kind of conversion.
Do a search on this site for Hesitation and take a look at some of the links below.
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/614528.phtml
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/357719.phtml
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/357729.phtml
I haven't heard of any Golf GTI 1.8T's with this problem, standard or modified. Has anyone else?
I have heard about the MAF and oil contamination from the filters. The MAF cleans itself by passing a high current to 'burn off' any contamination for a few seconds after switching the engine off. In theory, you should be able to 'clean' the MAF by switching the engine on/off a few times.
In fact, I actually had the same hesitation occur on my Corrado VR6 and it showed up on the 1551 as an intermittent Air Mass Sensor fault but it only ever happened once and so I never bought a new one (£250).
BTW, I am enjoying my new Ibiza Cupra, it's actually quicker to pick up speed from low revs than the VR6 and I haven't been over 4000RPM yet (only done 60 miles).
A few points:
Regarding higher octane values (eg booster):
The octane level of the fuel, although making a difference to the timing and power of the car, has no effect on this problem. Running 97,98 or Optimax is identical.
Regarding use of 6th at 40:
I agreee that this is a far too high a gear for the spped. However, the problem can be found in 3rd at 40 when you are gunning it. Here however, it is far less noticeable and because the revs climb so quickly, over with in no time.
Regarding other VW's not having the problem:
My brief chat to RAD some time ago seemed to suggest that it was the 'Leon's' over sensitive knock-sensor. I understood it as a very modle specific fault.
Cheers - Rich
ahhhh now we are gettin to it , i have just been out in a y plate demo , TOTALLY standard and have tried my best to get summat near the fault
6th gear , surprisingly (my apologies) just rolls along happily @ 40 so i digress any possible upset i have caused , but below > lol <
35 slight rumble
30 juddering
25 big knocking
20 slammin and JUMPING then STALL
even tried the quick start thing , and from 90 to stall using FULL ON ABS , blimey these things are great , but STILL no sign of even a blip ??
LEE still has his fault ALL the time and is in soon so i will keep you all posted soon at least we can do a definitive test on it if its there
Just to clarify a few things:
1) I have this problem on my Ibiza so its not just a Leon problem,
2) The hesitation is VERY noticable... its like hitting the brakes... the seatbelts actually lock!!! Even if you keep your foot on the pedal in 3rd you can't get the revs to climb through the flat spot (Its at about 3500 rpm). If you take your foot off the accelerator and then put it back on this sometimes helps.
3) The problem originally occurred about 3 or 4 times a week, but now it only occurs about once every couple of weeks. Also when the problem does occur its not as severe as it used to be. The only differences are that the car has done more miles now (3000 now compared to around 1000 when it occurred regularly), and I'm now using Optimax all the time.
I'm not sure if the problem is related to the chip (RSD210) or not as I bought the car from Amethyst already chipped.
BTW, Amethyst have looked at my car to see if they could find the problem, but no fault codes had been logged and being an intermittent problem, we couldn't get it to happen whilst I was there!!! :(
Anyone considering buying the RSD210 conversion I would still say go for it... I'm very happy with it in general. The problem is so rare now that i can live with it (Providing its not secretly causing any damage!).
Ben
Am i right in assuming that the knock sensor is that big plastic chamber mounted to the top of the engine's cylinder head?,
If so, could we not desensitise it slightly by putting some very thin rubber under it?, that would act as a cushion to some of the knocking
ill have a good nose when lee comes in , as for padding it out , i think it senses tone ?? or is that just renault , mmm still worth a try ?
Although it's not worth me trying it cos my car doesnt have any of the problems people are talking about!,
But having said that, i sat in my car for 15 seconds with the ignition on before starting the engine (till all the lights went out) and i'm sure it was smoother to drive until it was fully warmed up, but i might have just been imagining it!!
I wouldn't mess with the knock-sensor. Getting it wrong could lead to a lot of pinking - maybe even dammage....
Rich
PS - RSD got back to me. They say they should have a look at the car - the hesitations should not be noticeable at this time of year.
Originally posted by rakh1
I wouldn't mess with the knock-sensor. Getting it wrong could lead to a lot of pinking - maybe even dammage....
Rich
PS - RSD got back to me. They say they should have a look at the car - the hesitations should not be noticeable at this time of year.
Seasonal is it now :)
ibizacupra
27-11-2001, 10:24
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Seasonal is it now :)
Is this like race drivers book of escuses when things go wrong? LOL :D
Seriously though, the knock sensor being a detector of pinking, is less likely to trigger on boosted cars when the weather is cooler & damper and the intake charge is therefore denser and less like to pre-ignite. The cars should feel faster because of this also - which is nice!
Bill
Hehe :D im just a bitch :p
:devil:
The car does feel damn quick at the moment, this i have noticed. Bit of pain though for summer track days :p if this is the case.
A car with a case of inherrant sunstroke :D
Mine's noticeabley faster when the temp is under 5 degrees!, but i can notice that after running flat out for 10-30 seconds, i dont get full power available again for about 20-30 seconds,
I am thinking that this is down to the intercooler being an air/air unit, is taking this long to cool back down again,
I am gonna cut a BIT MORE OUT OF MY FRONT SPOILER AT THE WEEKEND AND SEE IF THAT helps it at all, also there seems to be a curved deflector just behind the spoiler, is that for deflecting stones?, does anyone think it is ok to remove it and put some coarse mesh in fron of the intercooler instead?
I must admit ive had noticible improvement since i fitted the V6 front end, the intercooler is now exposed to direct air which has got to be a good thing.
Did you go for a FMIC?, have you got any pics of your car from the front?, and how much did it cost to do?, youve got me thinking now, which always seems to cost me money!!!
I take it FMIC to those not in the know means Forge Motorsport Intercooler :)
No i didnt its still the standard intercooler, but i believe its runnin better now cause the new front end is less restrictive to the air flow.
http://www.seatcupra.net/images/zboyd/bumper/DCP_0746.JPG
Amethyst did the job, speak to Flapper & Swinny, they will sort you out a price for the kit and or spraying it and fitting it too. :cool:
...anyway - back to the origianl topic....
RSD called....had a chat and want to have a look at the car. They reckon it may be an air leak somewhere. In the unlikely event it is a chip problem they will talk to Oettinger. Either way they seem more than happy to help :)
I am going to take it to them in a couple of weeks and see what they can do....
NOTE for all you wannabe chippers....customer service is measured much more acurately after you have parted with your money! From what I have heard I can't image the likes of superchips being this helpfull!!!
Rich
Also very much dependant on your point of view, but im glad your getting some joy.
The engine may feel more powerful now that its cooler out, but the frost, damp and leaves mean that you can't use this power! Theres not enough grip. :(
BTW, I went out in a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo earlier.... I'm happy to report that my Ibizas acceleration is far far better! :)
Ben
Black20VT
27-11-2001, 13:35
Ben,
Is it really faster than the 20V Turbo? I thought the Fiat was supposed to be a bit of a beast!
How did it handle in comparison though? Are you running the PSS9's?
Was fancying a Fiat, but heard they are a bit tempermental and then found out that they are group 18 or something stupid on insurance! Soon changed my mind!
Chris.
Scoobster
27-11-2001, 15:03
My Beeza is definitely a lot sharper in the mornings at the moment.. something to do with it being 1.5 degrees in the mornings when I go to work like.. but it is noticable.
Shame that the frost and wet roads prevent me giving it a pant spanking and letting fly with the secret weapon.. lol
Zboyd: I have to say that the front on your motor looks the dogs danglies fella.. shame it doesn't fit on the Beeza.. I like the lashings of honeycomb...!! Is that also an Evo style spoiler I can see lurking on the boot lid through the back window? or is it just something in the background?
As for the Fiat..!! I am sorry but they look sh*te..!! dunt matter if they are quick, the boot looks horrid..!! hehe
I had my car in the garage yesterday.. I had moaned about a rattly accelerator, and had mentioned the turbo lag and holding back when flooring it, and they have taken the full throttle unit out apparently, checked it all and reset stuff and put it back.. it seems to have solved the problem of the rattle, and it hasn't held back yet, but I haven't had chance to hammer it out of any junctions yet.. so we shall see..
That front end looks seriously nice!!!, now all i have to do is damage my current bumper and i can get that one instead!!!:D
Wanabe,
Yes my Ibiza with the 210 conversion and the PSS9s feels MUCH more powerful than the Fiat. I have driven a few Fiat 20VTs so its not that I was just driving one with a buggered turbo or anything. Didn't get a chance to test its handling coz the roads are a bit to slippery at the moment.
Ben