View Full Version : Strange RR results
Hi all,
..just had the Revo treatment at Regal in Southampton (sorry Bill, Mr Impatient here and I have the week off) but my before and after RR printouts were a bit odd.
Before chip I was putting out 133 BHP @ 6045rpm and approx 138 lb/ft of torque @ 2600 ish rpm. That BHP is way low isn't it?
..after was 152BHP @ 5735 rpm and 195 lb/ft @ 4000rpm which is better by the BHP figure is still some way short of what I was expecting.
He did say that the boost kept dropping at higher engine speeds due to poor cooling on the RR hence the lower power figures (as they're obtained at higher engine speeds than torque). They hooked it up to the VAG and took it on the road and assure me that in real world driving conditions boost does not drop away at higher engine speeds.
Does this sound right? Or have I been BSd?
...certainly feels quick as fcuk, whatever the paper says :D
Pics of readouts to come
Cheers!
A
Originally posted by monty77
Hi all,
..just had the Revo treatment at Regal in Southampton (sorry Bill, Mr Impatient here and I have the week off) but my before and after RR printouts were a bit odd.
Before chip I was putting out 133 BHP @ 6045rpm and approx 138 lb/ft of torque @ 2600 ish rpm. That BHP is way low isn't it?
..after was 152BHP @ 5735 rpm and 195 lb/ft @ 4000rpm which is better by the BHP figure is still some way short of what I was expecting.
He did say that the boost kept dropping at higher engine speeds due to poor cooling on the RR hence the lower power figures (as they're obtained at higher engine speeds than torque). They hooked it up to the VAG and took it on the road and assure me that in real world driving conditions boost does not drop away at higher engine speeds.
Does this sound right? Or have I been BSd?
...certainly feels quick as fcuk, whatever the paper says :D
Pics of readouts to come
Cheers!
A
Are the figures regal quote at the wheels? If so then that' reasonable if not brilliant. The 156bhp SEAT quote is a flywheel dyno figure without the mechanical losses you'd experience by measuring at the wheels.
Are they sure all the boost is there? Could also be a MAF malfunction. Do you have a plot on the output. MAF problems usually appear as a ladder on the output graph (instead of a smooth line).
Surely my torque would be way down if boost was missing? I confirmed with him that figures were indeed quoted at the flywheel.
RR printouts
Before : http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.montgomery/ibiza/rr/DSCF0010.JPG
After: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.montgomery/ibiza/rr/DSCF0011.JPG
Cheers!
A
Originally posted by monty77
Surely my torque would be way down if boost was missing? I confirmed with him that figures were indeed quoted at the flywheel.
RR printouts
Before : http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.montgomery/ibiza/rr/DSCF0010.JPG
After: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.montgomery/ibiza/rr/DSCF0011.JPG
Cheers!
A
Are you sure you haven't got Superchips software instead?
Maybe there RR is just in need of recalibrating?
What were the temps and airflow like?
I'm not expert but the after plot seems rather strange as you pretty much have max power from 4500 on. Or to put it another way, it's pretty much flat from 4500 on.
looks like you are having a problem with heatsoak, the ECU recognises the engine getting hot and winds back the boost/fuel so the engine doesnt melt.
Your peak power should be around 5500-6k RPM.
Same would go for the peak torque too, but it would be produced lower down the RPM range.
@edc - v sure, have a working SPS1 for starters
@saul - so his explanation adds up? i.e. the cooling on the RR isn't up to scratch.
..I'm beginning to think the RR was just shite, there's no way my car feels like it has 152BHP ... if you know what I mean :)
Another Seat bloke was there with me, will be interested to see what his printouts were like.
A
Originally posted by monty77
@edc - v sure, have a working SPS1 for starters
@saul - so his explanation adds up? i.e. the cooling on the RR isn't up to scratch.
..I'm beginning to think the RR was just shite, there's no way my car feels like it has 152BHP ... if you know what I mean :)
Another Seat bloke was there with me, will be interested to see what his printouts were like.
A
yer cooling makes a massive difference, mine was on the RR at powerstation a year or so ago and made 162bhp, and anyone whos driven my car will tell you its not 162bhp, well it is at 4100RPM when it cut back :D
Originally posted by Saul
yer cooling makes a massive difference, mine was on the RR at powerstation a year or so ago and made 162bhp, and anyone whos driven my car will tell you its not 162bhp, well it is at 4100RPM when it cut back :D
Crappy RR then :mad: ... good job it didn't cost anything or I'd be fuming!
Are there any RRs out there that can sufficiently cool and provide accurate printouts?
A
yer - big time heatsoak.
did they not think that they'd just stiffed you & maybe wonder why they just downgraded your car?
Anyway - you'll be glad to know it's not got a piffliing amount of power - but does make it glaringly obvious as to what Vauxhall Tuners know about SEAT's
...if torque had been down too I'd have kicked up a fuss, theres no way a 152BHP petrol car would put out 190 lb/ft of torque :D
A
Kev Hall
02-04-2003, 18:41
As Saul says, it's definatley a heatsoak issue. On the rollers a fan isn't going to match the equivalent cold air that you get out on the road, the ecu senses the increased temperatures and goes into limp mode thus giving you a much lower reading and peak power/rpm.
Looks as though your car could have been quite warm to start with.
This is a problem with trying to get efficient dyno plots. You did see an increase all be it that overall figures were low. You can't rely on a rolling road to tell you how good your car is, as you say it definatley feels faster!
...certainly feels quick as fcuk, whatever the paper says :D
Keep that smile on your face!
ibizacupra
02-04-2003, 18:43
I have a couple of questions...
How long did the power run take do you think? Maybe 20 seconds or less?
Was it run up and down several times before they did the capture?
We did a RR day at this place last year, and on that day, even my shite conversion managed 189bhp which was exactly what it did on pretty much every RR I had been on (several, including the massive long run Powerstation venue) The power runs on that day was about 10 seconds max tho.. Heatsoak on a flash run like that should'nt be an issue. (depends how many practices were done getting it bedded in and setup etc..)
I presume they calibrated the rollers to the car at something like 60mph, and did a 4th gear run?
I see no figures for trasmission losses, power @ wheels etc... or is this power at wheels?
I would expect a REVO equipped car to produce significantly more ppower than mine old setup used to.. On the same rollers, mine did 189bhp.
No comparison cars on the day tho, so measurement error perhaps?
Weird readings tho...
Not what you would want to see....
At least it got higher after the reflash.. ;)
Bill
Shock_Xe
02-04-2003, 20:28
I had the exact same problems with my APR chip! At a local RR I had 156bhp in standard mode and b4 it was chipped. When i took it back chipped i only got 157bhp on the same rollers but about 200lbs torque apposed to 150lbs standard. I the same was fecked off to say the least. Boost was fine etc... Took it to stealth to get it checked out had 212/207/198/193bhp respectivley in 4 consecutive runs. Avg. 200bhp so it was fine and did feel like it should. Also raced another APR beeza and nothing init so i knbow mine wasnt under performing
now revo'd it definatly a lot quicker, not had it RR but done a Vag-Com run and only got 157bhp 200lbs torque!!! What that about???? Anyone??? But it is definatly quicker than 157bhp as it outperforms all other cars at that level!
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I have a couple of questions...
How long did the power run take do you think? Maybe 20 seconds or less?
Was it run up and down several times before they did the capture?
We did a RR day at this place last year, and on that day, even my shite conversion managed 189bhp which was exactly what it did on pretty much every RR I had been on (several, including the massive long run Powerstation venue) The power runs on that day was about 10 seconds max tho.. Heatsoak on a flash run like that should'nt be an issue. (depends how many practices were done getting it bedded in and setup etc..)
I presume they calibrated the rollers to the car at something like 60mph, and did a 4th gear run?
I see no figures for trasmission losses, power @ wheels etc... or is this power at wheels?
I would expect a REVO equipped car to produce significantly more ppower than mine old setup used to.. On the same rollers, mine did 189bhp.
No comparison cars on the day tho, so measurement error perhaps?
Weird readings tho...
Not what you would want to see....
At least it got higher after the reflash.. ;)
Bill
Hi Bill,
..I didn't see the power run(s) but they sounded very quick and the 2nd run was done right after it'd been taken for a road test (i.e. had the nuts thrashed off it)
Is there anything I can do on a RR to combat heatsoak? And where does the heat collect that causes heatsoak?
..sorry for dumb questions but this is my 1st turbo.
Like I said before the car feels completely transformed since the chip, money well spent. It's gone from a respectably quick car to and absolute rocket - my old VTS would have no chance now and I'm v confident on whipping my mate's Punto GT at the next oppurtunity :D
Cheers!
A
PS: They couldn't supply me a panel filter, said K&N dont make one for it - surely this cannot be true?
KingDragon
02-04-2003, 21:34
Originally posted by monty77
PS: They couldn't supply me a panel filter, said K&N dont make one for it - surely this cannot be true?
It's not true. K&N produces panel filters for Seat Ibiza Cupra, just ask your local K&N dealer to browse their catalog. Sorry, I don't have the p/n available right now. Or ask Bill to get a Green filter. It's really good as well.
Cheers
...thanks all! Can anyone recommend a RR that's not too far from me (I'm in Sussex) that know what they're doing to get me a proper reading?
I'll get in touch with bill re: the filter although the std one seems fine for now.
Cheers!
A
ibizacupra
03-04-2003, 08:08
Originally posted by monty77
Hi Bill,
..I didn't see the power run(s) but they sounded very quick and the 2nd run was done right after it'd been taken for a road test (i.e. had the nuts thrashed off it)
Is there anything I can do on a RR to combat heatsoak? And where does the heat collect that causes heatsoak?
..sorry for dumb questions but this is my 1st turbo.
Like I said before the car feels completely transformed since the chip, money well spent. It's gone from a respectably quick car to and absolute rocket - my old VTS would have no chance now and I'm v confident on whipping my mate's Punto GT at the next oppurtunity :D
Cheers!
A
PS: They couldn't supply me a panel filter, said K&N dont make one for it - surely this cannot be true?
Maybe a difference between someone like Vince @ Stealth or Mike @ Jabbasport who are "VAG" specialists, in that they would log induction temps during a run, and not start a run until the temps were level and as low as they could get them....
Heat soak would be your general induction system. The air temp sensor is mounted onto the inlet manifold, just after the throttle body, so if sat idling after a run, the heat soak from the engine goes into everything, including this. You can combat some heat soak during the runs by spraying a water mist over the inlet manifold and intercooler, but logging the temps is advised no matter.
There should be readings and figures for rolling losses and power at the wheels... You chould ask to see them. On this same dyno last year, mine did 189bhp, which was the same as it read at Stealths and Jabba's rollers.
Did they calibrate the rollers to the car?
Did they run in 4th gear?
I carry Green Panel Filter in stock for the 20VT Ibiza.. £43 inc vat plus carriage (£5)
regards
Bill
ForgeMotorsport
03-04-2003, 10:03
All Rolling roads may differ , as you know you can go to 3 fiffernt dynos and get three diffrent figures , if it feels strong and it pulls well all is ok. The fans will make a big difference. the fuel will make a big difference .
The ONLY way to test this is on the road.
Surely the way the operator works makes a difference?
Seems that this one was short sighted in his power run.
ibizacupra
03-04-2003, 11:45
VAG-COM is a pretty good tool for datalogging actual "on the real road" parameters. I have generally got good results (read: repeatable and comparible to well run RR's)
On the real roads is where it really counts.
Some people will remember the Powerstation problems from a year ago. Some RR's have high loads, long runs and poor cooling.. for forced induction cars this is terrible.
the bhp figures are all nice to talk about, but a one off RR with no other comparible car on the day, is going to be "iffy" on absolute results.
I trust Stealths RR and Jabbasport RR, as they are both consistent (in my experience) and well run, and very sympathetic to forced induction VAG cars.
regards
Bill
You say that fuel makes a big difference? How big a difference are we talking between 95 / 98 and Optimax in power terms on the car?
...made next to no difference in my NA Saxo.
A
Shock_Xe
03-04-2003, 14:20
Originally posted by monty77
You say that fuel makes a big difference? How big a difference are we talking between 95 / 98 and Optimax in power terms on the car?
...made next to no difference in my NA Saxo.
A
Ive read that anything upto 10bhp can be gained on higher ron petrol with corrected timing etc for it. However i may be wrong
ForgeMotorsport
03-04-2003, 14:23
agreed what the man above says is correct.
..I am assuming it would do nothing to combat the heatsoak I suffered under RR conditions though?
After another long run today I can honestly say I dont have a problem with boost retarding at higher revs, a certain Audi S3 driver can confirm this :D
A
Originally posted by monty77
..I am assuming it would do nothing to combat the heatsoak I suffered under RR conditions though?
After another long run today I can honestly say I dont have a problem with boost retarding at higher revs, a certain Audi S3 driver can confirm this :D
A
nope the type fuel dont affect heatsoak, thats what intercoolers do :D
...where is the intercooler out of curiosity? Bet it's somewhere silly with no decent air flow :(
A
Originally posted by monty77
...where is the intercooler out of curiosity? Bet it's somewhere silly with no decent air flow :(
A
turn your steering wheel full lock right, get out of the car and look into the passenger wheel arch at the front, see the silver box type thing, thats it. Takes an air feed from the valance at the front.
:cheers:
coupe-sport
03-04-2003, 14:54
I'd recommend somewhere like Power Engineering or Interpro - both use proper large fan set ups. I ran my TT last year at Power station with the Cupranet boys and although highest of the 1.8T's at 214BHP, still way down on its usual 270-280BHP. Problems due to a sustained run on the rollers and not enough air going into the side mount intercoolers.
Very poor.
James.
Originally posted by monty77
...if torque had been down too I'd have kicked up a fuss, theres no way a 152BHP petrol car would put out 190 lb/ft of torque :D
A
yes it could. overboost would give a peak torque figure but the turbo would not hold the boost
I've pretty much had the same heat soak problem on my dyno run. I only got 181.3hp on the dyno run, which was pretty long and without a running fan (done for free though). The guy will give me another run when he get the fan fixed.
I know the heat soak is not as big a problem on the diesel cars but it still exists.
slim_boy_fat
12-06-2003, 08:11
A dyno run should only last about 20 seconds, unless the temp in the garage is 30deg then heatsoak shouldnt be a prob, esp if a half decent fan is used.
I suppose if 10 cars were getting done and they were doing 4 runs each then the temp might start to creap up.
Intake tems on the TDis should stay pretty consistant.
Get the car dynod at 8 in the morning in January with all the garage doors wide open, if you are looking to get the highest numbers.
Good to know the VAG COM stuff gives pretty accurate readings.
At what revs will the boost start to drop off? I've got my boost gauge fitted now and it shoots up to 17-18 psi then gradually creeps down as the revs rise - is this right?
Cheers,
A
slim_boy_fat
12-06-2003, 08:42
Originally posted by vibrio
yip thats sounds normal.
For a petrol, diesels tend to have a steady increase in boost with no drop off..
TD's tend to boost then drop off. you can see it in the torque curve.
LEO LION R
12-06-2003, 10:27
I thought the TDi held the boost longer than petrols :confused:
I'm not sure how long boost is held. All I know is that on my dyno graph the hp reading goes flat at about 3900 to 4200 (will get a pick up tonight).
I'm not sure if this might also indicate MAF problems?
Ambient temp was 24ºC.
beinf flat over 300rpm does not mean it holds boost
LEO LION R
13-06-2003, 10:27
what does it mean then ?
:cheers:
it means that you don;t have any clue :p
slim_boy_fat
19-06-2003, 17:41
Originally posted by vibrio
TD's tend to boost then drop off. you can see it in the torque curve.
Uh uh
Our survey says nul point....
The boost does not drop off in a TDI just had mine linked up to the VAG COM and it was producing a solid 1.5bar.
is that 1.5 bar from full boost to red line on a standard car
slim_boy_fat
19-06-2003, 22:48
Originally posted by vibrio
is that 1.5 bar from full boost to red line on a standard car
Yes and no (not quite standard).
Standard was 1.1 bar