View Full Version : More Cold Air Induction
ibizacupra
27-11-2001, 23:09
Here's an interesting thread about BMC air filters and boxes on 1.8T's.
Some good at the wheel dyno results with this kit.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=154109
regards
bill
Looks very impressive, do you know if it will fit the Ibiza and what the cost is? suppliers?
Looks good Bill, just need a supplier now :p
ibizacupra
28-11-2001, 16:32
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Looks good Bill, just need a supplier now :p
Ok then...
The supplier of these are Autotechnik VAG specialists in Totton nr Southampton:- Tel 02380 ****** ask For Ness and mention me (Bill Brockbank)
There are 2 types available:
<1600cc engines The BMC kit costs £126 inc vat + postage
>1600cc engines The BMC kit costs £145 inc vat + postage
The results reported are very good.
regards
Bill
I E-mailed The Race Store in the USA (theracestore.com) and they do a kit approx $190 plus shipping. Their code for the Golf kit is RS-VW-001-15.
The exact cost can be obtained from their website.:cheers:
Tigger II
28-11-2001, 17:08
I'd agree with Bill and talk to Autotechnik. They looked after my MkII Golf GTI for 6 years and are a thoroughly decent set of people.
Infact I was planning to pop down there this weekend because they are also the local Supersprint distributor and now they have a back box for the Leon Cupra I want one.
ibizacupra
28-11-2001, 18:33
Originally posted by whelme
I E-mailed The Race Store in the USA (theracestore.com) and they do a kit approx $190 plus shipping. Their code for the Golf kit is RS-VW-001-15.
The exact cost can be obtained from their website.:cheers:
Don't forget Duty Imbound tax at 17.5% and the exchange rate at $1.41/GBP sterling which makes the USD price £134.75 excluding shipping and VAT (£158.33 exc shipping)
Autotechniks price is:-
<1600cc engines The BMC kit costs £126 inc vat + postage
>1600cc engines The BMC kit costs £145 inc vat + postage
Autotechnik are excellent people - Give them a go. The shipping will be less anyhow being UK mainland.
Tel:02380 ******
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
28-11-2001, 18:35
Originally posted by Tigger II
I'd agree with Bill and talk to Autotechnik. They looked after my MkII Golf GTI for 6 years and are a thoroughly decent set of people.
Infact I was planning to pop down there this weekend because they are also the local Supersprint distributor and now they have a back box for the Leon Cupra I want one.
Check with them first as I think they are away in France this weekend.
regards
Bill
:)
For those in the Midlands check out www.stealthracing.co.uk
ibizacupra
29-11-2001, 22:31
I am getting one of these to try in a week or so approx.
If we get similar results to the Golfs in the USA it should be good. :D
Bill
Hi ya people,
I've just received a reply from TheRaceStore re. the BMC CDA intake system.
The guy(Ralf is his name) has asssured me that the VW kit would fit the Seat Ibiza 20VT which I and others here, have.
Concerning the fittment - He said it was a direct replacement to the OEM airbox, and reckoned it would add about 9 HP - Which is nice but not that great compared to the Pipercross ind. kit , which albeit, would add a few less HP but is a whole lot cheaper.
He added that the sound was great - a real meaty growl . . . and attached a post he'd received from this guy from Peru, who was very excited about this mod, and noted the vast improvement, he'd noticed at throttle acceleration, and sound.
Don't get me wrong - I'm very interested in this modification, and would gladly fork out the dough for it, but before I do - some questions must be asked:
- Many people over at the VWvortex forum expressed deep concern of the uneventful mishap that could occur, with water being inducted via the low conveluted pipe which runs down to the snorkel at the front bumper - would surely wreck our engine.But I guess you could stay away from great big puddeles and pray to god for no rain(I guess living in Israel does have some advantages after all). :)
- Would this CDA throw any CEL's, or mess up our MAF and have our dashes all nicely lit and ready for christmas:)
BTW, if you do decide to go for it - How abot organizing a group buy???
Any thoughts???
Cheers,
Noam.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Don't forget Duty Imbound tax at 17.5% and the exchange rate at $1.41/GBP sterling which makes the USD price £134.75 excluding shipping and VAT (£158.33 exc shipping)
Autotechniks price is:-
<1600cc engines The BMC kit costs £126 inc vat + postage
>1600cc engines The BMC kit costs £145 inc vat + postage
Autotechnik are excellent people - Give them a go. The shipping will be less anyhow being UK mainland.
Tel:02380 ******
regards
Bill
Cheers Bill I never actually checked the cost, but like you steated probably would be more expensive to import. I'll give Autotechnick a ring.
Bill,
I presume your running your dyno with Amethyst without this attached?
If you do get one then let me know what you think.... I'm used to the 210 power now and I'm hungry for more! :D
Ben
ibizacupra
02-12-2001, 12:10
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill,
I presume your running your dyno with Amethyst without this attached?
If you do get one then let me know what you think.... I'm used to the 210 power now and I'm hungry for more! :D
Ben
Yep. It won't be on the car for the Amethyst dyno test... Would'nt make any sense would it.
It will be on there for the 19th Jan 2002 RR session though, so we might see some real results - good or bad !
regards
bill
ibizacupra
11-12-2001, 09:08
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Bill - are you going to do a before and after rolling road test of this BMC air box?
What is the filter itself constructed of and is it liable to mess up the MAF sensor which is what I'm extremely wary of?
9bhp would be a superb gain, but equally important is the improved induction sound to give the car a bit of real character (hearing an induction kitted Scooby at full chat on the rollers the other week I felt a twinge of jealousy ;) )
If this works reliably I'll be very tempted.
After the 19th Jan session, which I should hopefully have it fitted (subject to confirmation on its construction and oiling or not) I will get an after figure from the same rollers.
I am waiting a reply now.
regards
Bill
cordobabrendy
11-12-2001, 14:08
surely, any induction kit will heat up , regardless of the materials used? sitting in traffic for any amount of time with no clean and cold air hitting the front of the car would make any kit heat up to the point where one kit is as good as any other for heat resistance, standard location kits that is. for example, put a kit into an oven and have the fan running, the kit inside and out will heat up to a certain extent. the only way i can see a kit being better, noticeably, than any other would have to have a refrigerated outter skin.
ibizacupra
11-12-2001, 18:22
Originally posted by cordobabrendy
surely, any induction kit will heat up , regardless of the materials used? sitting in traffic for any amount of time with no clean and cold air hitting the front of the car would make any kit heat up to the point where one kit is as good as any other for heat resistance, standard location kits that is. for example, put a kit into an oven and have the fan running, the kit inside and out will heat up to a certain extent. the only way i can see a kit being better, noticeably, than any other would have to have a refrigerated outter skin.
Carbon Fibre is supposed to be very poor heat conducting, so heatsoak would/should be reduced. The cold air draw for the motor should run external to the engine bay, to the important cold air feed should remain - cold.
My inlet manifold stays amazingly cool considering..... My 16v would burn big time by comparison. Too hot to touch for sure. 20VT is only warm to touch.
<quote>
for example, put a kit into an oven and have the fan running, the kit inside and out will heat up to a certain extent. the only way i can see a kit being better, noticeably, than any other would have to have a refrigerated outter skin.
<end quote>
BUT have inlet an outlet pipes outside of the oven and pass air through them, what temp would the outlet air be? Going to dependant on velocity through the pipe and volume of the box.
But of course the real performance question has to be "what will it sound like?" :D :D :D
regards
Bill
Hi there,
As you might have noticed, I have posted the 'Hurricane Induction' thread a few days ago.
I'd like to react to the ongoing discussions about airboxes, all claims etc.
Let me tell you up front, I am commercially biased as I certainly want all of you to buy our Hurricane Induction System :D
First of all, accurate dyno results using any Induction system are very hard to get. During the development of the Hurricane Induction System, we've been visiting a dyno (from which we knew it was calibrated and where we also hired the operator that's always working on the dyno) and have spent days to (im)prove our concept.
We've rolled a car (Lotus Elise) three times using the exact same configuration. The result was different three times! :rolleyes: Not much, but within a window of 4 BHP. (which is 3% of the total power for an Elise !!) The operator wasn't surprised, he just sayd "sure, that's what you always see, if you want to do an accurate measurement, you should put the engine on the teststand!
Ofcourse, we found differences over the standard filter. Actually, it was stunning, some 9 BHP (9,4 to be precise) over the standard box! great stuff, but...
Basically, you could say that we do the same as anybody else building some sort of sports airbox, but obviously, we wanted to do better.
When we continued our development we found quite a stunning barrier in the air supply of an engine: turbulence!
Actually, when we started, we had some sort of fancy 'fase shifter' on top of the filter which would spin the air slightly..
After a tip of collegue, we went to another company which was able to replace the feeder pipe, from the airbox to the throttle body, by a transparant pipe.
They connected a stroboscope to the engine and had some 'instant smoke small icethingys which you should throw in hot water' connected to the air vent. Lights off, engine on, rev it high!
And there it was... Smoke was curling into the throttlebody, thus beeing withheld by turbulence! When going through the revrange, we found the system to be working at 3500 revs (which explains the funny peak we saw in the dyno graphs :D )
After this somehow shocking experience, we've radically changed our approach. No more gambling on dyno's, approach the problem theoretically and find a way to get rid of ALL turbulence.
We ended up at the company that has entered the complete system into their Silicon Grapics boxes and came up with a completely different shaped filterhead! Way to go..
Went back to the company with the transparent feeder pipe and saw a BIG (!!) change... no more turbulence..
Did we feel the difference? YES!! we did, car seemed to be revving faster :p
The only other thing we changed to get our act together is using a higher quality ducting hose (which was infact not corroding like several other we've seen).. tripled our buyprice, but we do like to deliver QUALITY..
Now you guys will be falling over us like "powerclaims!!! powerclaims!!"... ;)
We're not going to present ANY of them... :p
As we would like to be considered a serious company, it would be rediculous to stick a finger in the air and say "10 ponys sir... erm.. no.. make that horses!"
Every engine/car combination is different (VW/Seat/Skoda, they all have differences in their setup..).
As soon as you guys have dynoed the Hurricane Induction System and conclude it adds at least 12 horses, we would ..well.. point our finger and say "look at these people, they are happy customers" but still not a fixed claim as every configuration is different. (and it would only happen if we see SEVERAL similar results on different cars.
FWIW, feeling any change in power would at least take 10BHP (Rule of thumb).
I've not heard any customers who claimed not te be able to feel a change... some said "BIG time change", some said "I do feel a difference".
Now what does this all end up to? Well.. we ofcourse would like you to consider the Hurricane Induction System as you favorite.
We now deliver the system for the Leon Cupra (both Diesel and V6), the Toledo 90/110BHP Diesel and the VT20.
All other Seat models will follow at very short term...
I sincerely hope I might be able to have answered some of your questions. Beware, I wouldn't want to 'flame' any other supplier, but I'm just a bit allergic to sales people spitting out power claims just like that... :rolleyes:
Besides.... bolting an airbox on your car because the vendor says it's the same filter as one mr. M. Schumacher uses... well... it sure sounds like snake oil :)
ibizacupra
12-12-2001, 22:37
Originally posted by yvotuk
Hi there,
As you might have noticed, I have posted the 'Hurricane Induction' thread a few days ago.
I'd like to react to the ongoing discussions about airboxes, all claims etc.
Let me tell you up front, I am commercially biased as I certainly want all of you to buy our Hurricane Induction System :D
I sincerely hope I might be able to have answered some of your questions. Beware, I wouldn't want to 'flame' any other supplier, but I'm just a bit allergic to sales people spitting out power claims just like that... :rolleyes:
thankyou for your very well written posting. Informative. thankyou.
the turbulance you mention was on the intake pipe from the airbox to the MAF I guess, from your description. From there it goes into the intake pipe for the turbo, past the turbine impellor out of the turbo, through the intercooler, past the throttle body and into the inlet plenum manifold. ie turbine chops the airflow so gains are purely by reduced losses before MAF.
The losses you mention in drawn in airflow are aided by your Hurricaine inlet shape design. A Bell mouth I presume to smooth the periferal turbulant airflow into laminar airflow = less losses.
Is your filter a foam layer filter and oiled? MAF optics problems have been reported by some oiled filters.
When will a 20VT Ibiza version be available?
regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
You're right about the location where we eliminated the turbulence.
The turbo indeed chops the airflow, but you don't need any rocket science to conlude that chopping 'thin' air is less good then chopping a constant airflow.. :cool:
Hey... you're about to be right about the shape as well! :)
The filter on itself is a cotton multilayer filter. It is oiled, but we've not seen any problems with the MAF till now. Meanwhile our demonstrator V6 has done some 10.000 km without any problems...
We are a bit reluctant to use foam filters. I am very aware of the 'ongoing flame wars' between the foam and cotton supporters, but based on several inputs we got regarding foam filters we decided to stick to cotton. (I've not seen any cotton filters falling apart after a while.. :eek:
We've just made an appointment with an Ibiza Cupra 20VT owner to see if there's any special measures needed to fit the system. I presume we will do this session late next week (we're just a little overwhelmed by all the requests we got so far :D)
We don't really expect a problem, so the Hurricane Induction kit will probably be available around christmas time! :rockon:
ibizacupra
12-12-2001, 23:14
Originally posted by yvotuk
Hi Bill,
You're right about the location where we eliminated the turbulence.
The turbo indeed chops the airflow, but you don't need any rocket science to conlude that chopping 'thin' air is less good then chopping a constant airflow.. :cool:
Hey... you're about to be right about the shape as well! :)
The filter on itself is a cotton multilayer filter. It is oiled, but we've not seen any problems with the MAF till now. Meanwhile our demonstrator V6 has done some 10.000 km without any problems...
We are a bit reluctant to use foam filters. I am very aware of the 'ongoing flame wars' between the foam and cotton supporters, but based on several inputs we got regarding foam filters we decided to stick to cotton. (I've not seen any cotton filters falling apart after a while.. :eek:
We've just made an appointment with an Ibiza Cupra 20VT owner to see if there's any special measures needed to fit the system. I presume we will do this session late next week (we're just a little overwhelmed by all the requests we got so far :D)
We don't really expect a problem, so the Hurricane Induction kit will probably be available around christmas time! :rockon:
thanks for the info...
I will be interested in the Ibiza version when it is available...
I have experienced problems with foam filters on my throttle body conversions, and oiling is essential for them to work at all, and the oiling does'nt last too long either on performance engines. On 2 occasions I have had the filter suck through the induction system but I was lucky it caused no damage. Allowing the filters to run dry did cost me an engine rebuild earlier this year.
Personally I would never use a foam filter again.
The only other question I have at the moment relates to the position of the cold air intake, as this is essential for good power outputs. The Ibiza is pretty crammed in the engine bay..
regards
Bill
PS. Could you email me your trade prices and products to me at:- sales@badger5.co.uk
I understand that the wire mesh at the front and back of the MAF tube is intended to reduce turbulence and pulses.
Glenn.
Originally posted by yvotuk
Hi Bill,
We've just made an appointment with an Ibiza Cupra 20VT owner to see if there's any special measures needed to fit the system. I presume we will do this session late next week (we're just a little overwhelmed by all the requests we got so far :D)
Damn! I was just going to offer as well! :)
We don't really expect a problem, so the Hurricane Induction kit
will probably be available around christmas time! :rockon:
I think you're going to have a very merry Christmas by the sound of it. :)
Nice to get a post not just saying "Buy my product it's great" but going into how you developed it...I just hope your competitors don't 'coincidently' find the same thing out in the next couple of days. :(
Keep us informed
Andy
Hi Glenn,
AFAIK the mesh is part of the actual sensor. Reshaping an airflow with the mesh would be an act of magic ;) (you'd need to 'pick up' the flow and direct it, a mesh with a thickness of 1mm wouldn't be up for the job..)
Andy,
We're not that worried. We sure looked at the market and found just a few serious players on it. These players know what they sell and know what to ask.. (i.e. 250 UKP and up, way up!)
There's also some others (sorry, I will not mention names) indeed just singning the "I'm the best" song selling.. well.. at least less quality..
We've seen power claims at competitors (like: Honda VTEC etc. power gain 20% at a static dyno (e.g. no dynamic controlled airflow). If you see that kind of claims for an airbox.... well.. I suppose you know what you should think of them. :(
odysseas
12-01-2002, 09:33
take i look at my ibiza (1.4 16V 101PS) with the BMC C.D.A.
it works great
Ahmmm... the coldrun pipe has been equipped with it's own airfilter as I can see in the piccy.. I wonder what that will do on the test computer at the dealers...
Normally, not creating a vacuum on this pipe (by the induction of the engine) results in sensors that loose their mind and report an error message on the disagnose equipment...
If you're able to let someone test this.. I'd be very interested in the result...
odysseas
12-01-2002, 11:19
here in greece ,seat sells and installs the BMC C.D.A. in seat cars.
they tested the C.D.A. and tell that it gives about 8-10%.
also seat installs the C.D.A in the Leons that race here in the Leon Cup.
i haven't tested my car but i know that it have no problem with tests (as a friend of mine that works in seat told me.)
i'll try to find some more info.