View Full Version : Weight?
Does anyone know how much heavier a Cordoba SX coupe is than a 3-door Ibiza ?
cordobabrendy
28-04-2003, 19:54
1145 for cordoba
1100 for ibiza
both in kilos and 2.0 16v models.
more info here....
cordoba data (http://www.autohellas.gr/autolux/techco.htm)
ibiza data (http://www.autohellas.gr/autolux/techi.htm)
the extra weight makes bugger all difference in acceleration but helps in cornering as it balances the weight out a little better.
mmmm,i got cordoba 2.016v+1120
and the ibiza 2.016v@1050
this is from a SEAT rally guide so its probably wrong:o
darkstar
30-04-2003, 16:39
Originally posted by SteveC
Does anyone know how much heavier a Cordoba SX coupe is than a 3-door Ibiza ?
The basic shell is lighter in a coupe and stiffer - thats why SEAT used it for the WRC. THe hatchback and glass on a Beezer add a lot and weaken the structure.
It's all the lovely EXTRA's we've got on our cars compared to Ibiza's that adds the weight. In the end they're quite similar, and I'd rather have the higher equipment level.
:)
Cheers, guys.
If the basic shell is lighter and stiffer on the Cordy then that is ideal. I've been planning my next hillclimb car and wanted to use a Cordoba but just wanted to check that it wasn't wildly heavier than the Ibiza. I'll be binning all the goodies, so the extra weight will go.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 20:36
Originally posted by SteveC
Cheers, guys.
If the basic shell is lighter and stiffer on the Cordy then that is ideal.
Remember that where we have sheet metal (rear window, boot etc), and the stiffness from a bonded rear window as well - the Ibiza has a great big hole !!
Even with the hatch down it's still no where near as stiff. Same for all these hatchback v booted versions. Escort v Orion for example (not that I'd buy either).
Also if its for track use the rear strut brace will stiffen it even more. Either that or just weld a big sheet of steel right accross the car where the rear seat used to be.
Originally posted by darkstar
The basic shell is lighter in a coupe and stiffer - thats why SEAT used it for the WRC.
So, it wasn't cos the Ibiza is too short for the rules? hence Pug had to make 'long' 206's... that's the real reason.
they wouldn't make the less popular model in the range the one they used for world wide coverage though would they?
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:12
Originally posted by m0rk
So, it wasn't cos the Ibiza is too short for the rules? hence Pug had to make 'long' 206's... that's the real reason.
they wouldn't make the less popular model in the range the one they used for world wide coverage though would they?
With SEAT no - they could have used the Leon or Toledo - but the Cordoba was stiffer and lighter (being 2 door for both reasons) but they didn't.
Remember that SEAT are still producing Cordoba WRC's by the shed load. Why it's still the best option.
So tell me why they are producing a WRC car derived from an old model that they don't even sell any more ? You're argument about the less popular model was wrong then and it's even more so now.
Skoda are using the FABIA now and it's smaller than a 206.
Originally posted by darkstar
Remember that where we have sheet metal (rear window, boot etc), and the stiffness from a bonded rear window as well - the Ibiza has a great big hole !!
Even with the hatch down it's still no where near as stiff. Same for all these hatchback v booted versions. Escort v Orion for example (not that I'd buy either).
Also if its for track use the rear strut brace will stiffen it even more. Either that or just weld a big sheet of steel right accross the car where the rear seat used to be.
I think it would depend whether the original car/chassis was designed as a hatch or saloon.
I know that the BMW Compact was a 'chopped' 3-series saloon chassis. When they shortened it they lost rigidity so to put it back they bung in more steel which made the Compact heavier than the Saloon equivalent.
Originally posted by darkstar
With SEAT no - they could have used the Leon or Toledo - but the Cordoba was stiffer and lighter (being 2 door for both reasons) but they didn't.
Remember that SEAT are still producing Cordoba WRC's by the shed load. Why it's still the best option.
So tell me why they are producing a WRC car derived from an old model that they don't even sell any more ?
Skoda are using the FABIA now and it's smaller than a 206.
Fabia is being used not only cos it's a newer and smaller chassis than Octavia but because they want to promote the model and brand with advertising and marketing!!!
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:18
Originally posted by edc
Fabia is being used not only cos it's a newer and smaller chassis than Octavia but because they want to promote the model and brand with advertising and marketing!!!
Wrong it's coz the Oktavia is a tank and they can't get down to the minimum weight with it - which they will with the Fabia.
It's not to do with advertising in this case.
actually (sad hat on now)
the fabia is 5" longer in 5 door hatchback mode.
Mark
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:23
Originally posted by edc
I think it would depend whether the original car/chassis was designed as a hatch or saloon.
I know that the BMW Compact was a 'chopped' 3-series saloon chassis. When they shortened it they lost rigidity so to put it back they bung in more steel which made the Compact heavier than the Saloon equivalent.
You're right there, but the Ibiza and Cordoba were designed as totally separate models. The Cordoba isn't an Ibiza with a boot, nor is the Ibiza a chopped Cordoba.
Just look at the new Golf/Bora or Leon/Toledo(separate designs - yes I also know about how much commonality as well but)as oppossed to the old Mk2 Golf/Jetta. There's an example of cut and shut.
Originally posted by darkstar
Wrong it's coz the Oktavia is a tank and they can't get down to the minimum weight with it - which they will with the Fabia.
It's not to do with advertising in this case.
You reckon? Don't tell me it has nothing to do with advertsing at all! Is their a minimum weight rule? I know the Octavia is heavy and could lose a few pounds for rallying but the Fabia has come just at the right time then .;)
- especially with the Fabia recently being praised in the motoring press and the new RS version due for launch at pretty much the same time as the new WRC.
Look at Peugeot - their 307 WRC is arriving for the same reason.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:30
Originally posted by m0rk
actually (sad hat on now)
the fabia is 5" longer in 5 door hatchback mode.
Mark
Sorry mate you're right.
It looks SHORTER.
However that makes it the same lenght as the (old) Ibiza !!!
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:35
Originally posted by edc
You reckon? Don't tell me it has nothing to do with advertsing at all! Is their a minimum weight rule? I know the Octavia is heavy and could lose a few pounds for rallying but the Fabia has come just at the right time then .;)
- especially with the Fabia recently being praised in the motoring press and the new RS version due for launch at pretty much the same time as the new WRC.
Look at Peugeot - their 307 WRC is arriving for the same reason.
You might be right about Peugeot, I thought it was just that it had more "potential". Look how good the Citroen is. Same with Ford using the US (longer) Focus not the European model.
With Skoda it is about weight. The Oktavia is so much heavier than everything else. Even Hyundi are blowing it away (not good). Also the WRC Fabia has been in development for ages.
correct, which is why when SEAT went to the (french) FIA with the ibiza they got told to go swing cos the car was too short, but Peugeot (french suprise suprise) goto the FIA, they just have to knock up 2500 'special' ugly long cars.
one rule for the french, one rule for the others.
just off to see if i can find the exact length of a WRC car min (and yes edc, there is a min weight)
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:41
If advertising is the only factor, why is SEAT using Toledo's (very old model now) and Leon (old model now) and not using the CAR OF THE YEAR new Ibiza then ?
Our companies (VAG) want to win. Maybe it's different with other companies - but I doubt it.
It doesn't matter to Joe Public what model wins - IT'S THE NAME OF THE MANUFACTURER that they remember.
They don't remember that someone's latest model came 9th or whatever.
And as I said previously - why are SEAT still producing Cordoba WRC's then ?
Originally posted by darkstar
You might be right about Peugeot, I thought it was just that it had more "potential". Look how good the Citroen is. Same with Ford using the US (longer) Focus not the European model.
With Skoda it is about weight. The Oktavia is so much heavier than everything else. Even Hyundi are blowing it away (not good). Also the WRC Fabia has been in development for ages.
I realise the Fabia has been in development but I believe there is a good amount of collusion happening for so many Skoda events to occur at the same time.
Ford has nothing else to lose and a re-launch as they did ties in nicely with the launch of the Focus RS and the news that there will be a road-going Cosworth version.
Citroen have nothing else to use. Watch - just as they start winning things there'll be a press release announcing the Xsara replacement and shortly after that the new WRC car.
307 - I would have thought the height of the thing would be a major handicap. The WRC car is here to promote the range and to replicate the success of the 206. Soon there will be a hot road-going 307 and it's no coincidence that it will be at the same time as the WRC team. On the back of that (and also with the hot hatch power craze) they can launch the new 206 GTI 180...
darkstar
30-04-2003, 21:43
Originally posted by m0rk
correct, which is why when SEAT went to the (french) FIA with the ibiza they got told to go swing cos the car was too short, but Peugeot (french suprise suprise) goto the FIA, they just have to knock up 2500 'special' ugly long cars.
one rule for the french, one rule for the others.
just off to see if i can find the exact length of a WRC car min (and yes edc, there is a min weight)
Couldn't SEAT just have made LONG bumpers like Peugeot then to get round the rules ?
On the weight front - a guess 1150 Kg minimum ???????
Originally posted by darkstar
If advertising is the only factor, why is SEAT using Toledo's (very old model now) and Leon (old model now) and not using the CAR OF THE YEAR new Ibiza then ?
Our companies (VAG) want to win. Maybe it's different with other companies - but I doubt it.
It doesn't matter to Joe Public what model wins - IT'S THE NAME OF THE MANUFACTURER that they remember.
They don't remember that someone's latest model came 9th or whatever.
And as I said previously - why are SEAT still producing Cordoba WRC's then ?
Isn't the new Ibiza the same platform as the new Fabia? Skoda got their first so SEAT get lumbered with the next newer car the Leon.
I believe it does matter what model wins but the brand is equally important. If it did then all manufacturers would lok at Peugeot and go with a compact car.
I think the Toledo and Cordoba are used because these are popular in Europe. Europeans don't go for superminis like Brits (as much)
I didn't say advertisng was the ONLY factor but is undoubtedly a major factor (more influential perhaps for some manufacturers who really need it at that juncture eg Ford with diving profitability and SEAT gunning for the Sporty brand and Skoda just to build on their current good range and growing reputation).
yeah, but they'd already developed the cordie by the time the pug 206 came about to do the 2500 'specials'
FIA regs say 4000mm min length, which is just over 13'1"
how skoda have done it? not sure.. maybe by saying the octavia sucked?
:D
agree on the weight, f2 is like 900kg or something hence the xsara whooping a few years ago
Cant make out the text.
Undoubtedly VAG want success BUT why is the car in the pit not an Audi or a VW? It's cos they really don't need the exposure like SEAT and Skoda do.
I'm cynical - the Cosworth delay is a good marketing ploy (but maybe not driven by marketing). I said this ages ago but Ford already did it with the RS when it was delayed week after week. In the interim they shifted loads of the fill-in car the ST170. The hype surrounding the 'legendary' Cosworth name will undoubtedly help shift more RS and ST170s.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:06
Originally posted by edc
I'm cynical - the Cosworth delay is a good marketing ploy (but maybe not driven by marketing). I said this ages ago but Ford already did it with the RS when it was delayed week after week. In the interim they shifted loads of the fill-in car the ST170. The hype surrounding the 'legendary' Cosworth name will undoubtedly help shift more RS and ST170s.
I totally agree. I doubt if we'll see an RS before the second coming - but that blue ovals for you.
However did you see how quick (unfortuantely) the car was in NZ ?
Originally posted by darkstar
I totally agree. I doubt if we'll see an RS before the second coming - but that blue ovals for you.
However did you see how quick (unfortuantely) the car was in NZ ?
I did see how fast, and for a first (ish) outing I was impressed. I don't think Markko Martin is the fastest driver out there or the most confident but that would have won in the right hands. Sebastien Loeb - he'll be champ before either Martin or Solberg.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:12
Originally posted by edc
I believe it does matter what model wins but the brand is equally important. If it did then all manufacturers would lok at Peugeot and go with a compact car.
Yeh - and so do I - but your average bod couldn't tell the difference between one model or another (esp when they've got spoilers & wings & decals etc).
Probably couldn't tell the difference between your car and a Peugeot if there was no badges.
Remember - we're afficionado's
They're NOT.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:14
Originally posted by edc
I did see how fast, and for a first (ish) outing I was impressed. I don't think Markko Martin is the fastest driver out there or the most confident but that would have won in the right hands. Sebastien Loeb - he'll be champ before either Martin or Solberg.
Yeh - but out of the 3 - "Hollywood"'s my favourite.
Did you see how many times he said F*CK when he screwed up one stage ?
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:21
Originally posted by edc
Cant make out the text.
Undoubtedly VAG want success BUT why is the car in the pit not an Audi or a VW? It's cos they really don't need the exposure like SEAT and Skoda do.
Watch this space re VW (entering Formula 1).
BIG rumours of them buying a certain team that races in red - there's your exposure.
Audi - then why are they still racing (and beating everyone) the R8 then ? The TT V6 in DTM ? That's not exposure ?
Think the reason Audi isn't in rallying or in Touring cars is because they'd just blow everyone away (again) and the FIA would ban them (again).
The Frenchie's don't like Germans winning (which if everything was fair, they would do most of the time).
Originally posted by darkstar
Yeh - but out of the 3 - "Hollywood"'s my favourite.
Did you see how many times he said F*CK when he screwed up one stage ?
Yeah, his English is not too good is it?:p
Still think Loeb and Solberg are more committed and better to watch drivers than Martin. I think Martin may win it in a poor WRC season or by 'default' where another driver breaks a leg or something. For me to win you have to absolutely gun it all the time. Look at Mcrae, Makkinen of old and more recently 206 driver (but my mind is blank!). Even if they crash out another hard charger will win. Martin has drives like he's waiting for too many ppl to fall off the road.
Originally posted by darkstar
Watch this space re VW (entering Formula 1).
BIG rumours of them buying a certain team that races in red - there's your exposure.
Audi - then why are they still racing (and beating everyone) the R8 then ? The TT V6 in DTM ? That's not exposure ?
Think the reason Audi isn't in rallying or in Touring cars is because they'd just blow everyone away (again) and the FIA would ban them (again).
The Frenchie's don't like Germans winning (which if everything was fair, they would do most of the time).
I know the rumours about VW and F1 and I know Audi are in motorsport but I thought the argument was aligning road cars to sporting ones. My argument is that is why the road-based track cars are SEAT and Skoda not VW or Audi.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:30
Originally posted by edc
Yeah, his English is not too good is it?:p
Still think Loeb and Solberg are more committed and better to watch drivers than Martin. I think Martin may win it in a poor WRC season or by 'default' where another driver breaks a leg or something. For me to win you have to absolutely gun it all the time. Look at Mcrae, Makkinen of old and more recently 206 driver (but my mind is blank!). Even if they crash out another hard charger will win. Martin has drives like he's waiting for too many ppl to fall off the road.
Oh yeh - I think Loeb is the best of the 3 - just like Solberg more. I think his command of English swearing is 1st rate !!!
Originally posted by darkstar
Oh yeh - I think Loeb is the best of the 3 - just like Solberg more. I think his command of English swearing is 1st rate !!!
You see, he's so much more committed than Martin he's even learnt to swear for the camera in a foreign language:p But seriously, that expressivenes shows me somthing about his desire...
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:37
Originally posted by edc
I know the rumours about VW and F1 and I know Audi are in motorsport but I thought the argument was aligning road cars to sporting ones. My argument is that is why the road-based track cars are SEAT and Skoda not VW or Audi.
But the TT is (sort of). There is a V6 TT coming out.
I don't know about aligning with road cars ?
Didn't do Honda, BMW or Renault any harm winning in F1.
As I've said before - I think the brand name alone means a great deal to the average person.
Even being rubbish (the green cat brigade) hasn't caused them problems with their image or sales.
If you had a car with a big VW on it winning in F1 - it would be beneficial to the company - even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the car you could buy.
darkstar
30-04-2003, 22:39
Originally posted by edc
You see, he's so much more committed than Martin he's even learnt to swear for the camera in a foreign language:p But seriously, that expressivenes shows me somthing about his desire...
You also have to wonder how good the Scooby is tho.
I mean Tommi looks like a twat in it. I don't believe that a 5 (is it) times Champion suddenly got sh*te !!
Originally posted by darkstar
But the TT is (sort of). There is a V6 TT coming out.
I don't know about aligning with road cars ?
Didn't do Honda, BMW or Renault any harm winning in F1.
As I've said before - I think the brand name alone means a great deal to the average person.
Even being rubbish (the green cat brigade) hasn't caused them problems with their image or sales.
If you had a car with a big VW on it winning in F1 - it would be beneficial to the company - even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the car you could buy.
I do see where you are coming from and do agree in a sense. F1 is the pinnacle, but the SEATs and Skodas are in their (in place of VW Golf or Polo or Audi A3 etc) because they 'need' the promotion more than the other marques. Let's face it they are quite faceless to the public. Look what happened with the Ibiza F2 car. It spawned all the Cupras and is arguably the seed for the Leon R.
Honda, BMW Renault were all well-establsihed brands in the market.
Quite literally the game for SEAT and Skoda is putting a face/car to a name and raising the profile which is why they are producing race cars based on road cars which ppl can recognise.
Originally posted by darkstar
You also have to wonder how good the Scooby is tho.
I mean Tommi looks like a twat in it. I don't believe that a 5 (is it) times Champion suddenly got sh*te !!
Scooby is a bit long in the tooth but Makkinen got shite cos he got scared. That's what happens when you've been there and bought the t-shirt then have a big smash. Why bother? What else is there to achieve/prove?
darkstar
30-04-2003, 23:10
Originally posted by edc
Scooby is a bit long in the tooth but Makkinen got shite cos he got scared. That's what happens when you've been there and bought the t-shirt then have a big smash. Why bother? What else is there to achieve/prove?
Not sure ?
Wonder how fast he'd be in a Citroen or Pug ?
Why bother? What else is there to achieve/prove?
Another championship ? Then another ? Prove you are the best EVER ?
Originally posted by darkstar
Not sure ?
Wonder how fast he'd be in a Citroen or Pug ?
Why bother? What else is there to achieve/prove?
Another championship ? Then another ? Prove you are the best EVER ?
It's the same in many sports. When you've got all the t-shirts and then faced with a huge challenge or barrier you lose your edge. Look at Johnny Herbert when he smashed his legs and even Roy Keane now. If Schumacher smashed himself badly I doubt he will be the same driver again.
I don't doubt Makkinen is a great driver and was an even better one but what's he like mentally now? Yes, like you say there is more he can do but it won't prove anything. How much does he want this extra though and is he willing to put himself in danger again for another 'trophy under the belt'?
darkstar
30-04-2003, 23:20
That's the $64,000 question !!!!
Originally posted by darkstar
That's the $64,000 question !!!!
No. I win. I take personal cheques.:p