View Full Version : Charge Cooler fitting on Tuesday
ibizacupra
02-05-2003, 15:36
Well Tuesday me Beezer gets some more Jabba treatment with their PACE/Jabba chargecooler.
Fingers crossed it works well and cures the mahasive induction temps I get on full boost.
wish me luck..
I'll post results when I get em.
Bill
LEO LION R
02-05-2003, 15:48
good luck
more power :eek:
what are you anticipating gain wise with this ?
Cupramax
02-05-2003, 16:27
Hmmm, just been looking at Pace's web site... interesting stuff. Its flash so you'll have to wade through the menu's... :/
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/ricc/anatomycc.htm
ibizacupra
02-05-2003, 16:44
Originally posted by LEO LION R
good luck
more power :eek:
what are you anticipating gain wise with this ?
More power would be nice but controlled induction temps is the goal... (more power would be an extra)
The next step for power would be a compression drop and boost rise... step by step.
and fingers crossed. :D
Bill
Bill,
Have you managed to get hold of the bigger Dynatwist for JABBA to look at (Cupra R, TT, S3 etc.)?
Me very impatient, must try to relax more.:cheers:
ibizacupra
03-05-2003, 20:05
Originally posted by MARRA
Bill,
Have you managed to get hold of the bigger Dynatwist for JABBA to look at (Cupra R, TT, S3 etc.)?
Me very impatient, must try to relax more.:cheers:
I've ordered it but its not arrived with me yet...
Will let you know ASAP as something is sorted.
regards
bill
Dormouse
03-05-2003, 23:27
More power would be nice but controlled induction temps is the goal
Ang on, by definition a cooled charge through greater density of air will give more power. Surely this is the object of this stage of the balistic banana's development programme?
Or are you trying to kill heat soak problems for track exploits?
Dor.
Seat Apprentice
04-05-2003, 19:21
Originally posted by Dormouse
Ang on, by definition a cooled charge through greater density of air will give more power. Surely this is the object of this stage of the balistic banana's development programme?
Or are you trying to kill heat soak problems for track exploits?
Dor.
yup charge temps down power up
to a certain extent, depends on other factors and its also only potential power:eek:
ibizacupra
05-05-2003, 18:52
Originally posted by Dormouse
Ang on, by definition a cooled charge through greater density of air will give more power. Surely this is the object of this stage of the balistic banana's development programme?
Or are you trying to kill heat soak problems for track exploits?
Dor.
LOL
Got me.. :p Yea.. more power... :D
70'C induction temps is bad for power, so yea, I should get a more stable and possibly higher power level. I am seeking more power tho from other mods, which just makes my need of efficient intercooling mandatory.
Fingers crossed it goes well :)
Bill
Seat Apprentice
05-05-2003, 18:58
you in southampton anytime this week bill?:D
ibizacupra
07-05-2003, 08:51
Originally posted by Seat Apprentice
you in southampton anytime this week bill?:D
Erm... dunno, but suspect not... time is short and GTi International looms... mucho prep to do.
I will be on the AutoT stand at Inters tho. :) *(and the beezer)*
regards
Bill
PS. Charge cooler is on and really really cold.... no test results, no time to run any... so far so good... cold to touch now after mucho ragging.. Looks promising. :D
Let us know when you have some results Bill.
Also, have Autotechniks ordered you in a new clutch for after the GTI Inters sprints? ;)
Ben
ibizacupra
07-05-2003, 22:12
here are some piccies of it installed.
No time to dyno it, but touch temp tests are well impressive so far.. (early days I know) - Very cold to touch.
Note how short the intake pipe run now is.... Well responsive. :D
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/chargecooler-1.jpg
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/chargecooler-2.jpg
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/chargecooler-3.jpg
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/chargecooler-4.jpg
regards
Bill
Seat Apprentice
07-05-2003, 22:17
looking gooooooooood
unfort. due to education commitments wont be attending gti int.:mad:
Excellent Bill. That is one mighty fine engine bay you have as well. :)
:cheers:
Scott
Shock_Xe
07-05-2003, 22:44
So, gotta ask the question, What about the Forge one?? Ill start the bid at £1! :p
Seriously, what ya looking for?? PM me details if u wish
thanks
ibizacupra
07-05-2003, 22:54
Cheers Scott
Its nice and clean for the while. :)
Not a lot of space tho is there :p
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
07-05-2003, 22:57
Originally posted by Shock_Xe
So, gotta ask the question, What about the Forge one?? Ill start the bid at £1! :p
Seriously, what ya looking for?? PM me details if u wish
thanks
The Forge IC is under offer right now.
If that falls thru I'll PM you.
regards
bill
I'm also interested in the forge one ;)
Dormouse
07-05-2003, 23:19
Ditto.
Dor.
P.S For the benefit of stupid people (like myself) do the two braided hoses carry a resevoir through a cooling element and out, or is it literally cooling the charge with a spray into the airflow?
Cheers
Dor.
max_torque
08-05-2003, 08:24
Looks good Bill,
3 things to check with chargecoolers:
1) your pump can manage between 15 and 25 litres a min coolant flow
2) That the chargecooler connections are counter flow, ie cold water entry at air exit of cooler, warm water out at air entry to cooler
3) That the LRT is a BIG as poss - 'cause your now having to reject the same heat(or more if you've got a better system than before) to the atmosphere, but the temperature differential (which drives heat transfer) has fallen from say the 150 degC of the post compressor air at the intercooler entry to say 50DegC water exiting the chargecooler.
hence on a normal uk day at 15degC say, you've only got 35degC delta, not 135 degC delta.
(PS LRT = Low Temperature Radiator, that bit the at front!)
Enjoy!:D
Looks very impressive Bill. Is that Jabbas final design now, as it looks slightly different to Mikes when I saw it last.
Which chargecooler is it, as I see Pace do various types?
Very nice Bill, should go well.
Ave it
Rob
ibizacupra
08-05-2003, 08:58
Originally posted by Dormouse
Ditto.
Dor.
P.S For the benefit of stupid people (like myself) do the two braided hoses carry a resevoir through a cooling element and out, or is it literally cooling the charge with a spray into the airflow?
Cheers
Dor.
Dor.
The hoses into the side of the chargecooler flow water through the water jacket through the core.... recirculating the cooled water. There is also a small radiator mounted in front of the other ones behind the front grill. the water storage is the windscreen washer bottle so has a system capacity of approx 7ltrs. (hopefully enough ballast storage to cope with high loads & high temps)
The system is'nt completed yet, as there is a boost activated switch to be fitted which cranks up the water pump syupply voltage from 8v to full battery voltage for higher flow rates on high demand.
It is'nt an aquamist type device, just a water to air intercooler.
regards
bill
ibizacupra
08-05-2003, 09:02
Originally posted by max_torque
Looks good Bill,
3 things to check with chargecoolers:
1) your pump can manage between 15 and 25 litres a min coolant flow
2) That the chargecooler connections are counter flow, ie cold water entry at air exit of cooler, warm water out at air entry to cooler
3) That the LRT is a BIG as poss - 'cause your now having to reject the same heat(or more if you've got a better system than before) to the atmosphere, but the temperature differential (which drives heat transfer) has fallen from say the 150 degC of the post compressor air at the intercooler entry to say 50DegC water exiting the chargecooler.
hence on a normal uk day at 15degC say, you've only got 35degC delta, not 135 degC delta.
(PS LRT = Low Temperature Radiator, that bit the at front!)
Enjoy!:D
Cheers Paul..
We did plumb the water flow as you say, as that seemed more logical to us (and helped bleed the system), but this was the opposite to Pace's instructions....
I want to get some temp readings of pre and post chargecooler charge temps to log and review.. along with water bottle temps.
the pre-rad is smaller than I thought it was going to be so I want to convince myself that it is sufficient under full load (read track bashing or traffic jams for example).
So far, the crude touch test on inlet pipe and outlet pipe seems much improved over before. Cool cool cool... :D
regards
bill
ibizacupra
08-05-2003, 09:04
Originally posted by whelme
Looks very impressive Bill. Is that Jabbas final design now, as it looks slightly different to Mikes when I saw it last.
Which chargecooler is it, as I see Pace do various types?
This is different to Mike's own chargecooler, being slightly larger cores and different construction... PACE cores (x2), and pre-radiator with Jabba end tanks.
Mikes Ibiza runs the same system as mine now. (or more to the point, mine runs the same as Mikes now :p)
regards
bill
Looks good Bill, very impressive.
Whats the spec on the water pump in regards to flow, how much does it move?
Have u got the specifications on the heat transfer, inlet temp of water and outlet temp of air?
:cheers:
max_torque
08-05-2003, 09:49
For comparison check out a Focus RS:
Pump is BOSCH, fully rated, run continuously at 12v, shifts 14 l/min as installed
LRT is approx 150mm x 550mm and fitted in front of main rad and A/C condenser.
There is a small (<0.2 litre) header tank, but it does not run with any water storage as system capacity is sufficent.
In UK and most driving it's got no probs, but on Italian Autostrade it struggled in 35 deg ambients with long (>2min!) Vmax runs!
If you do any logging make sure you log both the air in / out for the Chargecooler and the water in/out, that way you can see when the "slug" of warm water gets round the system if you have insufficient low temp rad cooling capacity. (if this takes more than say a 30secs or so then it's probably not a problem in UK normal driving (might be for trackdays)
An easy fix for small LRT's is a boost activated external water spray to increase radiator effectiveness when you need it. (could also be "high" charge temp switched as necessary)
If you know the flow rate of your pump and system (for an easy check - pull off return to header bottle, stick it in a bucket, time how long it takes to empty system, measure how much waters in the bucket and calculate l/min) then you can calc heat rejection from CC as follows:
heat flow (kW) = Delta T (degC)* Cp (for water) * mass flow (for water Kg/s).
where delta T is the difference in water inlet to outlet temp for the chargecooler
Example
Water Inlet temp = 25 degC
Water Outlet temp = 45 degC
hence delta T of 20 degC
water flow = 15 l/min (density of 50% water/antifreeze mix approx 0.85) = 0.2125 kg/s
Cp for water = 3.77 J/kg.k (specific heat for water / antifreeze)
so heat rejection =
20 * 3.77 * 0.2125 = 16.026 kW
Originally posted by max_torque
For comparison check out a Focus RS:
Pump is BOSCH, fully rated, run continuously at 12v, shifts 14 l/min as installed
LRT is approx 150mm x 550mm and fitted in front of main rad and A/C condenser.
There is a small (<0.2 litre) header tank, but it does not run with any water storage as system capacity is sufficent.
In UK and most driving it's got no probs, but on Italian Autostrade it struggled in 35 deg ambients with long (>2min!) Vmax runs!
If you do any logging make sure you log both the air in / out for the Chargecooler and the water in/out, that way you can see when the "slug" of warm water gets round the system if you have insufficient low temp rad cooling capacity. (if this takes more than say a 30secs or so then it's probably not a problem in UK normal driving (might be for trackdays)
An easy fix for small LRT's is a boost activated external water spray to increase radiator effectiveness when you need it. (could also be "high" charge temp switched as necessary)
If you know the flow rate of your pump and system (for an easy check - pull off return to header bottle, stick it in a bucket, time how long it takes to empty system, measure how much waters in the bucket and calculate l/min) then you can calc heat rejection from CC as follows:
heat flow (kW) = Delta T (degC)* Cp (for water) * mass flow (for water Kg/s).
where delta T is the difference in water inlet to outlet temp for the chargecooler
Example
Water Inlet temp = 25 degC
Water Outlet temp = 45 degC
hence delta T of 20 degC
water flow = 15 l/min (density of 50% water/antifreeze mix approx 0.85) = 0.2125 kg/s
Cp for water = 3.77 J/kg.k (specific heat for water / antifreeze)
so heat rejection =
20 * 3.77 * 0.2125 = 16.026 kW
Good stuff Paul, as you say its all dependant upon the temperature on the inlet water side, which will warm over use and reduce the rate of thermal transfer.
If you used a larger tank or perhaps slowed the flow rate (depending on the thermal properties of mixed water/antifreeze) it may have a better optimum flow based upon use.
Ill do some calcs this after if i get time.
:cheers:
Bill,
and if the cooler developes a crack, it'll soak your engine?! :devil:
max_torque
08-05-2003, 10:37
Water flow rate in a chargecooler system is actually a bit tricky to optimse, as if you slow the flow down it spends longer in the LRT, which is good as it cools more, but the lower flow rate reduces the Chargecoolers effectivness, so it removes less heat, so the water doesn't actually need to spend as long in the LRT! And if you speed the water up it can take more heat from the chargecooler, but can't reject it to the LRT!
I would say that if you have a small LRT and a big resevoir, which you do,then a slow flow rate is likely to be more efficient - but ultimately your going to have to instrument up the system and log whats happening if you want to optimise it.
Looks good. One concern though.... as you are using the washer reservour, which presumably has screenwash in it (You'll need it to stop freezing in the winter).... how does screenwash react to getting hot (Not just the normal warm as it would normally get in the engine bay)? At a guess I wouldn't be surprised it it crystalizes, which could result in deposites building up throughout the system!
I'm not sure if this is a problem.
Try buying several different makes of screen wash, and put them into saucepans and boil them up on the cooker. See which one behaves the best! :D
Cheers
Ben
Dormouse
08-05-2003, 13:41
Is this a totally passive device or is there any active cooling (excluding the actual water pump)
Dor.
ibizacupra
08-05-2003, 14:05
Originally posted by Saul
Looks good Bill, very impressive.
Whats the spec on the water pump in regards to flow, how much does it move?
Have u got the specifications on the heat transfer, inlet temp of water and outlet temp of air?
:cheers:
My ever so technical "touch" test :p would seem to confirm it works.. :D
Previously the intake pipe was hot to touch always after a good old blast... and now its cold... not warm.. Cold which has to be a step forward.
I will be doing some datalogging tests when I get some free time (ha! fat chance then :eak: ) to confirm and more importantly gauge its long term performance under all conditions.
As for its actual water flow, I don't know the exact figure, but its sufficient to make a little fountain in the washer bottle when full, and the return/feed pipes are on the bottom..
As I said before, the unit will have a pressure switch added which would nearly double the existing water flow rate apparently, so on high demand/high boost (>10psi for example) the pump will run faster & flow more water. Mike added this feature (but ran out of time to fit it) after seeing some temperature ramp slightly on his own beezer on his dyno, when pounding on it run after run. The recovery was quick and indicated a flow issue under sustained high loads high boost... Its recovery was in seconds however which is still faster than I remember the factory IC ever doing.
As for washer fluid crystalising I very much doubt it. It does'nt look to get anywhere near that hot... or even remotely warm yet.. :)
It is a passive device residing in front of the other radiators, so their fans will draw air past this small rad. There is possibly some room for a small slimline fan behind the pre-rad if I needed to add some extra "draft".
regards
bill
Dormouse
08-05-2003, 14:13
Ok, the big question.
How Much :D :D (I see a future post warrenty mod comnig on)
Dor.
Would it be feasible to fit a bigger LRT in the space where the intercooler previously was? Or is the current LRT already too big for that?
Will be interesting to see how the system efficiency degrades as the windscreen washer is used up - you'll have to pretend to be negligent to find that out, Bill !
Seat Apprentice
08-05-2003, 18:44
Originally posted by Dormouse
Ok, the big question.
How Much :D :D (I see a future post warrenty mod comnig on)
Dor. sorry to hijack bills post but while i remember door the big boss at said dealer reads this site *cough* track exploits may be advised to be hush hush:eek:
Dormouse
08-05-2003, 19:49
Yes, I know as do others who you won't be aware of.
Remember also young padawan, that I am not, infact, a door.
Dor.
Seat Apprentice
08-05-2003, 19:51
Originally posted by Dormouse
Yes, I know as do others who you won't be aware of.
Dor.
do u mean other users that claim warrenty?
btw not that i care less fair play to u.
ibizacupra
08-05-2003, 21:08
Pre-rad piccies and location..
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/pre-rad-1.jpg
The rad comes to the top of the black bumper strip and attaches to the bumper bar and lower front spoiler
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/pre-rad-2.jpg
regards
bill
Bill, did you get my return PM?
utter_hatred
09-05-2003, 13:58
More power!!!?
Bill, you are most definitely a grade A, power-hungry, petrol-guzzling, fast driving, turbo-nutter.
Respect.
CustardCupra
09-05-2003, 15:49
;) Very nice Bill ,
Will be looking at having this myself when i get the IHI upgrade but as someone previously asked How Much ????
Exact price doesn't matter just an approximate please .
Jools
ibizacupra
09-05-2003, 22:07
Originally posted by CustardCupra
;) Very nice Bill ,
Will be looking at having this myself when i get the IHI upgrade but as someone previously asked How Much ????
Exact price doesn't matter just an approximate please .
Jools
I dunno ...
Not paid.. yet
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I dunno ...
Not paid.. yet
Bill has just commited his first FIT and run :D
:cheers:
CustardCupra
10-05-2003, 16:01
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I dunno ...
Not paid.. yet
LOL :D
Jools
ANDY BLUNT
13-05-2003, 13:51
Saw your motor at inters Bill cc looked really trick ,nice job ,how is it performing now .Did look for you Sunday but you were hiding.Forge swapped dv ,design seems slightly different and spring stronger,will try.Fault mode twice sunday codes are as follows 17963 charge pressure limit excedding.P1555-35-10 intermittant.Any ideas anyone.:D :cheers: Andy.
ibizacupra
13-05-2003, 14:56
Originally posted by ANDY BLUNT
Saw your motor at inters Bill cc looked really trick ,nice job ,how is it performing now .Did look for you Sunday but you were hiding.Forge swapped dv ,design seems slightly different and spring stronger,will try.Fault mode twice sunday codes are as follows 17963 charge pressure limit excedding.P1555-35-10 intermittant.Any ideas anyone.:D :cheers: Andy.
I was running around like a blue arsed fly over the weekend. Went up the trip a few times. Well please with the results..
CC is running well I think. Looks good with its new Jabba sticker too :)
Did you have the 006 DV before?
Bill
ANDY BLUNT
13-05-2003, 16:22
Yes but swapped back to standard to try and eliminate problem ,still went into fault mode .New valve seems ok ,it go's much better with forge dv than without.Time will tell ,Shock Xe has boost logs will ask him to post them so u guys can have a looksee .Any ideas would be greatfully accepted.:cheers: Andy
Shock_Xe
13-05-2003, 23:28
urrrrm
ere they are
ANDY BLUNT
15-05-2003, 17:06
Cheers Mike ,still no probs apart from rapidly disappearing front treads:D :( :cheers: Andy.
Hello Bill
Thought i'd pop over from the club gti forum and say hello to the guys over here :)
Glad to see the cars goin well :)
Are you still going to the ring with Me, Gary etc from the club gti forum ?
You'll have to let us know how you get on with it on the rollers, be interested to see how it effects the top end power.. Might be just what we need !
ibizacupra
15-05-2003, 21:43
Originally posted by madmk4
Hello Bill
Thought i'd pop over from the club gti forum and say hello to the guys over here :)
Glad to see the cars goin well :)
Are you still going to the ring with Me, Gary etc from the club gti forum ?
You'll have to let us know how you get on with it on the rollers, be interested to see how it effects the top end power.. Might be just what we need !
Hello :)
The ring is still on for me... Ferry paid for etc.
I need to try and get back on the rollers....
Will be playing at Santa Pod with Gary Handa's MKIV.. which should be a laugh. :D
regards
bill
Good stuff, Will see you at teh RSOC day with a bit of luck :D