VW trying to stop Serial Port Programming ? [Archive] - SEAT Cupra.net

Rage

01-06-2003, 00:29

Windows XP was an un-piratable operating system. News reports stated that it was cracked within 5 days of launch.

CSS encryption was meant to resrict DVD piracy. It was cracked by a programmer in the netherlands for the purpose of playing DVD's under Linux. A library file is freely available for download.

My point is that where there is a demand and a will. There is always a way. It may take some time to break a different setup but everything can be broken given enough time.

Fen

01-06-2003, 11:28

I agree with Rage - VAG will keep the possibility there because you can bet that they bank on being able to do it themselves in the event of any recall for a software problem in a car. So long as the technology allows it, it will only be a matter of time before someone cracks it.

KingDragon

01-06-2003, 15:26

I only disagree with the examples been given. Cracking software and in fact the protection schema of a software product is illegal.

If VW feels like protecting their program being held in the ECU is the same as REVO, APR, MTM, ABT does, as long as the company complies with OBD2 specs. Cracking any protection is such illegal as reverse engineering it.

Wouldn't it be the same, if you took the REVO CD and crack their upload protection schema in order to upload their software to cars without paying? Or even use an EPROM download the code from a chip, and reverse engineer it?

IDA Pro, Softice along with hardware tools exist, but the main thing is to be on the safe side and think of be legal and also have support and warranty and respect the companies.

I thing that this is just a case between the tuners and the mother company. They both want to sell, in order to keep the market going on!

Cheers
KingDRAGON

Rage

01-06-2003, 16:17

In order for any tuning company to write to an ECU they need to know what is there already along with where its located on th chip and what it does. So any encryption employed by the manufacturer must be broken. The morality or legality of this is not for me to say. However it is a definite requisite of re-programming anything.

Rage

01-06-2003, 16:37

Further to my post. A while back I was breifly involved with a project to write Linux drivers for a Video capture card.
The manufacturer wasn't interested in supporting any other platform than Windows(R) they refused to release technical documentation on the card for various reasons. It fell to the programmers to figure out how the card worked in order to write the drivers. Monitoring the card and checking outputs etc can only teach you so much. The firmware on the card had to be de-compiled and re-writen in order to complete the project.

The same is true of ECU programming. The de-compiling and re-writting of software has been going on since Compaq reverse engineered IBMs first BIOS in order to create a rival desktop computer. There is no difference.

The legality of either situation is beyond my knowledge so I'm unwilling to comment on it.

The point is not whether it is right or legal to do it. The question asked was whether it would always remain possible. VW will always need a way to access their own software on an ECU to issue updates etc. Which in turn will always allow someone else to do the same.

DaveP

01-06-2003, 22:25

Reverse engineering - legal.

Copying - illegal.

KingDragon

01-06-2003, 22:49

Originally posted by DaveP
Reverse engineering - legal.

I suggest anyone who wants to know more about it to read the European Union Directive, (Software Copyright Protection) 14 May 1991 (91/250/EEC) , which clearly states the obvious. Reverse engineering is not legal.

You may observe the program functioning for educational usage only but if it can be proved that in studying the program you've infringed laws on "trade-marks, unfair competition, trade secrets, protection of semi-conductor products or other laws of contract" you are liable to prosecution.

Cheers
KingDRAGON

Fen

01-06-2003, 23:57

I think VW would be very silly to try to stop serial port reprogramming. What sort of percentage of VAG cars do you suppose will ever be 'chipped' in this way? 1% maybe?

Perhaps it leads to an increased likelihood of a warranty claim, which could cost VAG money, but then all they really want is a flag in the ECU to say the code has been replaced.

On the other hand I would definitely not have bought my Ibiza if it hadn't been possible to 'chip' it to get proper performance out of it. Again I'm in a tiny minority taking that view, but there is a small slice of the market that they would exculde themselves from if they prevented this form of tuning.

Of course they could just have made a 180 bhp diesel Ibiza themselves I guess...

As far as the reverse engineering point goes, like Rage I don't know the legal situation either, but it isn't as if you're ripping off VAG's code - you bought the software license when you bought the car and what you're actually doing is choosing not to use that software that you have already paid for. I take the point that it's the tuner you're talking about having to reverse engineer the code for commercial gain though.

Dormouse

02-06-2003, 00:17

The legal technicalities are irrelevant to the user I would suggest. As long as it's legally available (which it is currently - I can't see into the future!) then if it offers an upgrade which is favourable to the consumer it will survice.

Personally, Irrespective of increased power and torque figures, I feel there are significant flaws in the basic map of the OEM software, that don't even let the factory cars run to the best (whilst retaining same basic power and torque) ability due to strange boost spikes and flat spots in the code.

Dor.

Glenn

02-06-2003, 09:01

Originally posted by Fen
On the other hand I would definitely not have bought my Ibiza if it hadn't been possible to 'chip' it to get proper performance out of it. Again I'm in a tiny minority taking that view, but there is a small slice of the market that they would exculde themselves from if they prevented this form of tuning.

Same here. In fact, if the Polo GTI had come with the 1.8T engine then that's what would be in my garage now. As is was, I knew I'd be bored with 125bhp (with little potential for tuning) after coming from a modified Corrado VR6, so I went for the SEAT and lived with the inevitably poorer residuals, build quality, ropey dealers, etc.

Dormouse

02-06-2003, 12:11

Id have bought a fabia if they had done an RS with 1.8T engine.

Dor.

mark sheerin

02-06-2003, 12:16

Dormouse

02-06-2003, 12:32

The manufacturers code is written with emmisions in mind..a need for engine longevity and hence fewer warranty claims and fuel consumption at various measured cycles for official figures.

None of which are biased towards performance...

the manufacturer just doesn't want a load of warranty claims for dead engines....

They will probably modify the VAG 1551 so it can pick up piggy backed coding and refuse to honour warranties..

The fact that they are changing the chip to prevent it means they can't detect it at present so I say..everyone make hay while the sun is still shining...

We've been here before. The 1.8T can survive easiliy with more boost, let alone mapping the std engnie and code to perform more smoothly. Emmisions are controlled by the Lamda sensors. A decently clean well maintained 1.8T will have no problems in that area, even with extra boost.

You seen the VAG1551? and how people use it at dealerships? Plug in -no fault found....end of story. No engineering skill is used (IMHO) just bits are swapped until it works (Dor gets contrversial :D)

I'd just like to see decent responsive code on a stock car.

Dor.

Cupramax

02-06-2003, 14:36

Originally posted by Dormouse
No engineering skill is used (IMHO) just bits are swapped until it works (Dor gets contrversial :D)

I'd just like to see decent responsive code on a stock car.

Dor.

LOl, very true. Had a little chat with the mechanic who serviced my Leon last week and he asked if I was pleased with it and if I'd had any other problems.

Anyway, started rambling on about all the stuff on here (not mentioning the site) like failed DV's, types of coil packs and MAF's etc etc.... techi bod starts looking sheepish and quickly ends the conversation ROFL :D :rolleyes: :think:

LDoR

02-06-2003, 14:58

And going off topic for a while....

Originally posted by Rage
Windows XP was an un-piratable operating system. News reports stated that it was cracked within 5 days of launch.

Not competley true, MS did release versions of WinXP that you could easily pirate but was only avaialbe to big companies. Thankfully some corrupt admins decided to share these copies with other people. Also the beta code and relesace candidate codes where cracked before the launch of the OS itself. I even heard that the actual final release code was cracked before the launch!!!!

Rage

02-06-2003, 15:17

I was fairly sure that was the case but I wanted to quote stuff which I knew for sure so I didn't get pulled up on it later in the conversation.

lard

04-06-2003, 13:04

Originally posted by Dormouse
We've been here before. The 1.8T can survive easiliy with more boost, let alone mapping the std engnie and code to perform more smoothly. Emmisions are controlled by the Lamda sensors. A decently clean well maintained 1.8T will have no problems in that area, even with extra boost.

You seen the VAG1551? and how people use it at dealerships? Plug in -no fault found....end of story. No engineering skill is used (IMHO) just bits are swapped until it works (Dor gets contrversial :D)

I'd just like to see decent responsive code on a stock car.

Dor.

Thing is...

Sure, VW could make every 1.8T engine produce 300 BHP by adding bigger turbo, intercooler, re-map etc, etc., but I think the point is that they don't want to produce every engine maxing max. possible power. The beauty in the flexibility of the 1.8T engine is that it allows them to segment the market (i.e. Cupra, Cupra R 225TT etc. all with different power outputs). If there was no segmentation, people would all have top power cars, regardless of whether-or-not power was that important to them. In this situation, those of us who have a desire for power wouldn't get that 'my car's just a little bit special' feel, so we'd go elsewhere. A lot of it is down to using consumer psychology in your marketing strategy.

Lard

Dormouse

04-06-2003, 13:12

Agreed Lard,

But my final point was simply that the market segmented engine responds and makes the best use of it's allocated power.

Dor.

Goot

04-06-2003, 13:19

But also a worrying thought....

Sky Digital - No one yet has managed to crack it (to my knowledge).If VAG use for example the same algorithms for encyption, this may also become uncrackable.

Depends how much VAG want to stop us?

Guess it depends on how much money and research they put in to actually stop us.

Goot :)

slim_boy_fat

04-06-2003, 16:17

Originally posted by Goot
But also a worrying thought....

Sky Digital - No one yet has managed to crack it (to my knowledge).If VAG use for example the same algorithms for encyption, this may also become uncrackable.
Depends how much VAG want to stop us?
Guess it depends on how much money and research they put in to actually stop us.
Goot :)

Dont make me laugh, go down to the Barras market and you can get a card with unlimited channels and viewing for a price!! Allegedly..;)

Goot

04-06-2003, 16:24

I'll believe that when I see an actual *working* card :)

Many a search done on the net... for research purposes of course!

Sky Analogue, NTL Analogue, ITV Digital (RIP) maybe. But sky Digital I don't think so ... but I could be wrong!

Goot :)

Rage

04-06-2003, 16:30

Sky digital has been cracked 3 times to my knowledge and new cards were issued.

Goot

04-06-2003, 16:38

Hmmm... this is interesting. The last I read on the net was that many people have attempted it, but were beaten by Sky's automatic code generator which churnes out new encrpytion algorithms every so many hours, in turn updating Sky viewing cards automatically. So in effect, any crack attempt would be rendered useless.

I also heard that the Sky digi boxes and viewing cards are married to each other. Therefore, any attempt to put a new card in a box would not work unless Sky had issued an updated card which marries itself to the box.

Can anyone back this up? And if Sky is "crackable" why is there nothing on the net that I can find?

Sky spend an absolute fortune on encryption

I remember the good old days where the ITV Digital codes were posted on the net for the lucky goldcard owners.

Goot :)

Cupramax

04-06-2003, 22:30

Originally posted by Goot
If VAG use for example the same algorithms for encyption, this may also become uncrackable.

Depends how much VAG want to stop us?

Guess it depends on how much money and research they put in to actually stop us.

Goot :)

All they'll need to do then is find enough space for an ECU the size of a digibox and problem sorted :D

Dormouse

05-06-2003, 12:14

It's not difficult or really that expensive to produce an ECU which is uncrackable due to being 'unaccessable'.

Dor.

Rage

05-06-2003, 13:04

True. But VW or Seat may need to update that same ECU at some point which means they must leave a window of some kind in order to get in.

Dormouse

05-06-2003, 13:13

Hahaha....

Waiting for that...

I'd say they would just adopt the 'swap it' metallity.

Personally i'd LOVE seat to update my ECU with some decent code :D

Dor.

pablovi

06-06-2003, 00:45

Originally posted by Goot
But also a worrying thought....

Sky Digital - No one yet has managed to crack it (to my knowledge).If VAG use for example the same algorithms for encyption, this may also become uncrackable.

Depends how much VAG want to stop us?

Guess it depends on how much money and research they put in to actually stop us.

Goot :)

Why would they want to stop us from tuning the ECU?

It's an added value to the car, the reason i bought a 1.8t, instead of other vehicle of the same power with another engine, is because it's more "tuneable", and less expensive to modifing also, so if VAG decides that they don't wants us to modify the ECU, i wouldn't buy their cars.

John

06-06-2003, 07:56

Seat Apprentice

06-06-2003, 20:08

Originally posted by Dormouse
Hahaha....

Waiting for that...

I'd say they would just adopt the 'swap it' metallity.

Personally i'd LOVE seat to update my ECU with some decent code :D

Dor.
define who u class as seat;)

from what i have read i dont think anything has been mentioned that is actually uncrackable or decrypt or the similar

there are a few differing ways of securing programming (im sure there are more that i dont know about) but know matter how they do it there is always a way of overcome it, the problem is collecting the data to overcome the creators precuations, once you know what they have done it is relatively simple to overcome,
could go into detail but im crap at english and explaining:(

the advantage i can see of sky digital is they constantly change how it works, therefore it seems highly unlikely it will be cracked,because there is a live link to ur box they can read what is on there all the time it is on they will know as soon as it changes,
the other modern advantage to the manufacturer is the VAST amounts of code they use, by the time someone has begun to interpret the encryption or logical data, it could potentially be changed 10fold

as far as the VAG situation goes im sure revo have nothing to worry about, unless the is a HUGE change in design in the eltronic principles of their cars there is no way they will stop ppl like revo,
ppl seem to think that ever since development of he OBD stye systems that the reprogramming has become so much easier, the reality is its actuall still the same just the way it is transfered to the vehicle; the old system was place the new software on a chip and put the chip in the car, now the new software it uploaded straight to the exsisting chip, less expensive yes but essentially same thing.

as for dors comment on just plugging in the VAS 5051/VAG 1551
your comment is spot on as this is all its designed for and potentially all it can do! other than cetain activations and adaptions
if VAG allowed the 1551/5051 to do more then the whole point above of "COPING" would be EVEN easier

for sure they will throw a spanner in the works now and again; ;lets just wait and see:cheers:

GJ18T

06-06-2003, 23:00

I think we are forgetting one rule here:
Anything made by man can be broken by man...

VW has shown a more easy position towards tuning in the past as it is already possible to have your car chipped by the dealer (Abt provides the chips) and Seat Greece has officialy hooked on to so it wouldn't be impossible for other dealers (or Seat for that matter) to jump on the bandwagon and make some money out of something they know will happen anyway (feel free to add any comma's or points;)

Cheers,
GJ.

Seat Apprentice

06-06-2003, 23:12

Originally posted by GJ18T
I think we are forgetting one rule here:
Anything made by man can be broken by man...

thats wat i was trying to say:D

vibrio

07-06-2003, 21:11

Originally posted by slim_boy_fat
Dont make me laugh, go down to the Barras market and you can get a card with unlimited channels and viewing for a price!! Allegedly..;)

nope not sky digital as I've been looking :mad:

RichardBW

08-06-2003, 20:58

VW and Audi dealers will soon have their VAS5051/5052 diagnostic machines linked via modem to Germany(SEAT and Skoda dealers still use VAG 1551/1552). There is a lot of scare mongering that these will automatically re-write ecu software back to standard every time the car is serviced. Seeing as all manufacturers are trying to lower service times I doubt the dealers will have time to hook up every car during service just to check all the original software is still present.
The real reason for this is Immobiliser/key recoding to be direct from Germany. ie. nobody else ever sees the codes which is a great security feature to try and bring down insurance groupings. Also when the dealer cannot fix any technical issues, the car can be hooked up and all data can be anylised by engineers in the German technical centre.

At present VAG(or even Bosch) have done nothing that we cannot cope with. The Bosch ECU is forever changing to cope with more complex modern vehicles. Most recent developments to note are probably the inclusion of Digital signitures to each individual ECU and also Chassis number id in the software for immobiliser purposes.

As long as VAG make OBD2 complient cars Revo will have a future. If these stop tomorrow I suppose we could get the soldering stations out again ;)

Dormouse

08-06-2003, 21:01

Richard, I know at least one SEAT dealership with a 5051.

Dor.

Rage

08-06-2003, 21:06

My local one has one but they don't like using it.

RichardBW

08-06-2003, 21:20

Most dealer techs shy away from these when first issued but they are actally simpler than the 1551/1552.
Not sure what is going on with SEAT dealers at the minute as some still use hard copies of technical bumpf and parts depts may also use microfiche instead of Etka. May be due to the AA running SEAT Technical:( :confused:

Dormouse

08-06-2003, 21:25

You'de noticed that too eh?

Dor.

Dormouse

08-06-2003, 21:25

You'de noticed that too eh?

Dor.

Seat Apprentice

08-06-2003, 21:30

Originally posted by Revo Richard
Most dealer techs shy away from these when first issued but they are actally simpler than the 1551/1552.
Not sure what is going on with SEAT dealers at the minute as some still use hard copies of technical bumpf and parts depts may also use microfiche instead of Etka. May be due to the AA running SEAT Technical:( :confused:

define simpler???

hard copies are still used as for some information this is the only option; unlike many VW and Audi

GJ18T

08-06-2003, 22:56

Originally posted by Revo Richard
VW and Audi dealers will soon have their VAS5051/5052 diagnostic machines linked via modem to Germany(SEAT and Skoda dealers still use VAG 1551/1552).

This is already the case for SEAT dealerships in the Netherlands and exactly the same reason why I want the immo code removed from my car.
In my world, if you buy something, you own it. I would not have a problem paying for a single fee to get the 4 digit code for the immo but to take it into the dealership every time I'd swap ECU's or get an extra key is getting a bit ridiculous.

Just imagine loosing the key to your house and having to phone the construction company if you please could have another copy made...yeah, right..not.

Revo Kev

09-06-2003, 12:38

define simpler???

Easier to use. Most of the diagnostic procedures are actually guided so new users find this very handy. But if you are an experienced VAG tech this can be a pain in the butt as it can often be the long route to a common problem that was already suspected from the given symptom.

(this is actually Richard, for some reason I am logged in as Kev)

Dormouse

09-06-2003, 13:08

.(this is actually Richard, for some reason I am logged in as Kev)

And your business is software!!!!! :D :D

Dor.

Revo Kev

09-06-2003, 13:48

exactly. just me being lazy;)

And still logged on as Kev:o

Seat Apprentice

09-06-2003, 18:18

Originally posted by Revo Kev
Easier to use. Most of the diagnostic procedures are actually guided so new users find this very handy. But if you are an experienced VAG tech this can be a pain in the butt as it can often be the long route to a common problem that was already suspected from the given symptom.

(this is actually Richard, for some reason I am logged in as Kev)
all depends on what u use it for i suppose
as said most (so called ) techs dont use half the tools to half there capacity; some because they dont want; but in many cases ur simple not paid too! which is where the motor industry is devided!

Neo_VR

18-06-2003, 13:45

Originally posted by Rage
My local one has one but they don't like using it.

dont like, or dont know how? :confused:

my local renault dealers spend most their time reprogramming ecus because renaults code is w**k! ive had my clio reprogrammed 5 times now... they get new software every month almost... plus every time i speak to a so-called technician "oh.. it doesnt always work" WTF? how can reprogramming an ecu not always work? :mad:
You seat owners seem to have an easy life with your ropey dealers compared to renault. now just need to save up for a cupra :o