View Full Version : When the demo is over...
Icecavern
23-06-2003, 07:58
Been speaking to someone this weekend who had the demo, which has expired, and now is a bit dissapointed to say the least. His car now doesn't perform in the same way it did before he had the demo... VAG-COM results have also backed this up.
My question is...
Once the demo is over, you are still running REVO code, just with what should be a standard mapping. Is there any way of going back to EXACTLY what was on the ECU before the Demo?
I mean, your insurance AND warantee could be void, as despite the demo being over you are still running a modified ECU.
Pete
Seen this before on threads - it reverts back to a stock program, not a std pressure revo one.
All the ECU will 'do' is stock, although the revo demo code will still be present (just not looked at)
Maybe it needs to unadapt, just like ECU's adapt to the revo software?
Mark
Icecavern
23-06-2003, 09:43
I don't see how Revo can be completely gone once the demo is over...
As I understand it REVO is new ECU software that allows the mapping to be altered by looking at different tables. It's not just the standard code pointed at a new table. Otherwise how does the demo "fade out" smoothly when it's over.
It just seems odd that I've heard of a few people mention thier cars feeling less that standard after the demo. And now power runs seem to be supporting it...
Pete
where did I say that it was erased?
any chance of sharing these power runs?
Mark
Icecavern
23-06-2003, 09:55
I'll see what I can do on the plots...
Pete
Revo Kev
23-06-2003, 10:39
To clarify it reverts completely back to stock, although if the car has 'adapted' to the trial it might remain slightly better than original whilst it adapts out.
I can't see how it could be worse than it was before the trial?!
mark sheerin
23-06-2003, 11:05
My car is running fine at the mo..feeling very strong in the current high humidity...yes I noticed when the REVO finished but its certainly no slower than before..Reinstalling full time REVO is one way to solve the 'prob'...:)
Maybe the ECU has to relearn being normal again like when you bought the car new..?
Icecavern
23-06-2003, 11:19
But from the figures gained it's in the order of 30hp and 30ft/lb down which is kind of unusual.
I suspect putting the full REVO would indeed fix the "problem"
Pete
Revo Kev
23-06-2003, 12:10
Is it 30bhp/30ftlb down on stock?
If so then I would assume that there is some hardware issue, be it coils, maf, etc. What car is it?
Dormouse
23-06-2003, 17:16
Mine certainly felt down on std after the trial and still does. I have yet to dyno it to confim in figures though.
Dor.
Revo will stay in your car but disabled, if you run the "fetch" option in the dealer's Revo Flasher, it will say, Revo is present but disabled. I don't know if the car will be less than stock, or not, but REVO is present.
One way to solve this is to reflash your ECU with the Stock program every REVO dealer haves, that way your ECU will be back to stock. In my case(Leon Cupra R) the dealer had 3 programms, the trial, the complet REVO and the Stock. So, once your Demo is over, you can take your car back to the dealer and he will reflash it for you with the stock programm.
Regards
To clarify it reverts completely back to stock, although if the car has 'adapted' to the trial it might remain slightly better than original whilst it adapts out.
This is exactly how mine played out after the 2hr demo a few months back. No issues once it revert back to stock after the demo prog.
Right guys.. Time I stepped forward.
The car in question is mine.
I've been doing a bit of trialing on the chipping front,
I've managed to get my little mits on the following ECU's for the purpose of trialing them, an AmD, an Autotechnics map, the Revo trial and now and Ibiza R
I'm running the following on my 'standard' Ibiza
Milltek 2.5" exhaust
Hurricaine Induction kit
ABD Intake pipe
AmD Viper DV
All the runs were logged with VAG-COM and done in 3rd gear.
All results were with a warm engine and are peak figures, using optimax fuel.
My standard ECU was giving me 173bhp 182ft/lb
Max boost was 9psi - holds 5/6psi
The AmD resulted in 210bhp 220ft/lb
Max boost was 17psi - holds 12psi
The autotechnics resulted in 200bhp 220ft/lb
Max boost was 15psi - holds 10psi
this is where things go a bit odd...
The Revo trial gave me 177bhp 230ft/lb (??)
Max boost was 22psi - holds 14/15psi
Once the Revo trial ended the standard car felt noticible slower compared to how it did previously...
the runs confirm this...
I'm now getting high 140's bhp and the same for torque...
Boost is still fine though.
After lots of chat checks and chat... the ECU looked like the only thing that was different.
I've re-done my throttle alighnment, erased learnt values a number of times and have tried running with the MAF disconnected - all to no avail. I'm still down on power.
I've spoken to Kev about this and am working on his suggestions...
I can now happily (if that the right expresion) say that this seems to be hardware related as I have now got a Cupra R ecu to trial and I'm getting low figures with that too...
The R ECU is giving me 183bhp 195ft/lb
Max boost was 12psi - holds 9psi
I am trying to get hold of the previous ecu's that i have known figures for as my benchmark ecu does have a ? over it.
Any more suggestions on what to check...??
just off to catch my breath...:jog:
ibizacupra
24-06-2003, 13:36
Only thing to comment re VAG-COM and the power/torque figures you have got from it. Was this block #120 info. Derived Torque.
What is unknown is to what level, if any, the tables which are used for t block 120 calcs have been adjusted by the respective chip programs. Block 120 assumes factory tables, which it wont neccessarily have.
Logged boost is direct sensor so is the only reading I would believe from your data posted.
Ignition advance, injector times would be sensor outputs I would have logged when comparing, as well as block 120, so to find and diverging results which may give a clue as to what exactly is happening.
BIll
yep - logged from block #120
boost levels seem to be fine... (eg what I would expect)
The logs from the other ECUs have all produced good results (in different cars too)
I have only logged the block 120 data and boost for these. (i only get 2.5 to 3.3 samples per second).
I wasn't expecting to get problems so didnt log anything else...
mass airflow would allow me to see for sure about the MAF :(
Dormouse
24-06-2003, 14:49
My R ECU for comparison off my autometer boost gauge.
RThis ecu having been dyno's a few m,onths back att Stealth Racing as 202 bhp 190ish ft/lb
10 psi holds 7-8 psi. Which i think is down from what I recall it to have been 'previously'....
Dor.
thats the sort of figures i was expecting from the R ecu too...
Russell
Good to see you back on SeatCupra.net!
At last I was waiting for your to post those numbers up after we did the trial install. Thanks for a comprehensive post.
Have Richard or Kevin come up with any suggestions about the apparent loss of power?
Cheers
Mike
RichardBW
25-06-2003, 09:03
The vag-com log calculations are based around calibration set to stock ECU tables/values, therefore most tuners modified programs will upset the outcome of the vag-com logs. We see many vag-com figures from customers after cars have been tuned, these are quite often up to 20bhp and 30ftlb (normally claiming less power than the car will actually produce on an accurate chassis dyno)
RichardBW
25-06-2003, 09:16
Had not finished that last message but it decided to post itself:confused:
The other factor for power loss could well be the recent warm spell if this coincides. I know that even our good weather is less than many other countries that run tuned turbo cars but a 10degree rise in intake temp causes a massive difference to the cars performance(especially KO3 turboed cars as this turbo generates enough heat on its own, when intake temps rise a little the turbo becomes a massive heat source rather than an air mover)
The Revo trial will completely dissappear apart from one piece which does not affect the performance, the only piece that remains is the part we use in our own software that allows trial software to be written only once to any given ECU.
For the people who suspect their cars are running less power or slower than before the Revo trial program, the best solution would be to return to any Revo dealer and have the ECU completely over-ridden and programmed with the original stock code. If the car remains with a loss of power then we can assume a hardware issue.
un fortunatly the loss in power does co-inside with the recent warm weathr BUT i would not except 20bhp+ losses due to the heat...
tough wood its always been pretty constant on power runs weather it was warn cold etc...
The thing is that this is a standard ECU - "vag-com log calculations are based around calibration set to stock ECU tables/values" thats what they are from...
so the loss of 20hp+ is compared directly to before during and after...
before revo trial in 12/13ºC and after revo trial in 17/18ºC
The car was running 200bhp and 220ft/lb shortly before the revo trial... so why should the revo trial results be so low??
Its looking like a hardware problem as I am still down on power with an R ecu... anyone any idea what the problem is and what has caused the problem?
Dormouse
25-06-2003, 12:35
This is why i'm reserving judgement until I see a controlled dyno test to compare it to my Stealth Racnig one.
Car still feels weak though....:(
Dor.
RichardBW
25-06-2003, 12:39
do you have any warning lights on dash or fault codes present?
If yes I am sure you would have mentioned this but if not the chances are the problem is MAF related. You should probably check this with vag-com to see how much air is being registered by the MAF.
do you have any figures that i should expect to see (and does this vary with a different filter and the R ecu?
I've tried running MAFless and made no difference :(
As you say.. there are no faults logged.
I've redone the TBA, erased learnt values and still no joy...
Dormouse
25-06-2003, 12:48
RE : MAF.
Seems a good suggestion I will check this out.
I have figures for the car from about 6 months back, I'll compare against them.
Cheers
Chris
Originally posted by smithrc
do you have any figures that i should expect to see (and does this vary with a different filter and the R ecu?
I've tried running MAFless and made no difference :(
As you say.. there are no faults logged.
I've redone the TBA, erased learnt values and still no joy...
Just out of interest Russell, when did you do the TBA, the car has to be stone cold, like left overnight stone cold, residual heat is held for a long time in the metals, and badly affects the ability to re-align fully, there is a measurement in vagcom on the % of alignment i think.
:cheers:
RichardBW
25-06-2003, 16:04
Vag com data block 002 second reading will be load % and fourth reading will be air mass.
With a load reading of 190% the fourth figure should be around 170g/s. Ideally this should be read at above 4000rpm under load.
With performance filters you may see a difference of about 1 to 5g/s. The restriction is normally the MAF housing and not the filter.
Dormouse
25-06-2003, 17:05
Is that for a std cupra or an std R Richard?
Cheers
Dor.
Revo Kev
25-06-2003, 17:17
It's the same air mass meter, you might see marginally more though. The above is indicative of any k03 car.
Dormouse
25-06-2003, 17:53
Kev (Of fastest 8v fame :D)
Yes, but presumably a differently mapped car will pull different amounts air depending on the fuel, throttle and any other maps affecting the Induction cycle. Hence my question on whether an R will be different to a std cupra irrespective of turbo. If i'm expecting as Richard says 170 g/s specific for a std R (or around that figure) then that's great. I just want to know thatt i'm comapring like with like :D
Dor.
Revo Kev
25-06-2003, 18:08
Dor,
yep you're looking at around 170g/s on either the cupra or the cupra r Ibizas. Give or take 10g/s either side.
This has to be done using for instance a forth gear pull so as to see 190% load.
For example if you have a bad MAF you might see around 140g/s @ 190% load, a really buggered one 80g/s @ 190% load.
:)
Dormouse
25-06-2003, 18:18
Yup, previous runs were done in 4th so comaprative data is good.
Just for info, what typically causes MAF failures? crap on the foil / element? anything else?
Cheers
Dor.
TBA was done at about 3:00am so the ambient temp was down too...
I'll redo it befor i use it in the morning and take mass flow readings on the way to work.
I'll update tomorrow ;)
ibizacupra
26-06-2003, 08:30
Originally posted by Dormouse
Yup, previous runs were done in 4th so comaprative data is good.
Just for info, what typically causes MAF failures? crap on the foil / element? anything else?
Cheers
Dor.
Fecking shite design and vibration!
:devil:
I'm seeing 140g/s (up to 142g/s) BUT the load is no where near what i was told to expect...
I was getting a max of 148% load.... is this normal or does this indicate a problem?
Shock_Xe
26-06-2003, 10:18
Ive run Vag Com on both My and andy blunts Revo'd motor, both only clocked up about 150bhp and 220lbs torque yet a standar leon got it right on 178bhp so i know my calcs are right.
However its definatly not 150bhp. For 1 both ibiza's ruin the leon (even though vag com shows lower power on them) They have both run 0-60 in mid 6's, I killed a standard Ibiza 20VT at our welsh meet, both got 210bhp @ stealth's rollers plus there is the butt Dyno too which feels good!
Dormouse
26-06-2003, 12:21
I too am not seeing 170g/s
I am seeing about 150g/s max. That was just before the rollers at Stealth too (when the car was developing 202BHP std)....
Hmmm....
Dor.
so guys.... :confused: :confused:
Revo's email & prolly net access is down at the moment (blame BT) so I would guess it's nothing personal!
Mark
so Dor - your running a dynatwist yes??
I'm running a hurricaine so that may well account for th 10g/s difference.. either that or both our MAF are dying and mine is in the lead slightly...
What % load did you get?
Dormouse
26-06-2003, 13:22
Can't remember load - Lappy battery died.
I'm running SPT! with a green panel filter.
Dor.
having just looked at the revo plots a bit more closely... the max torque was produced ar 2500... dying rapidly after that. Down to approx 150ft/lb at 5252 rpm this is why the power figures are low. the torque is low down and dies up the rev range. (bhp is calculated by multiplying torque by RPM (and deviding by 5252) so with low torque at height rpm the power is low.
You'll still pull away very quickly but it will not pull as well higher up the revs.
Originally posted by Dormouse
Can't remember load - Lappy battery died.
I'm running SPT! with a green panel filter.
Dor.
I'll wait for the revo guys to check figures...
Bill what figures do you normally get?
ibizacupra
26-06-2003, 13:51
What on my Ibiza?
re phrase...
What figures DID you normally get :)
(yep on you ibiza)
ibizacupra
26-06-2003, 13:54
Originally posted by smithrc
re phrase...
What figures DID you normally get :)
(yep on you ibiza)
pre-IHI was this (Oettinger'd back then)
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/dynoplot-vagcom3.xls
Figures now mean nothing.. too modified.
Bill
I've logged 3 revod golfs including my own.
Air masses peaked in the 150's with just a revo map on two cars, and peak mid 170's on mine with all my mods. Peak engine load is about 180% but its only to about 4K. Its 150% near the red line on high boost 9.
My peak torque on a block 120 is about 350nM and 218hp is the most I've seen. Temp makes a big difference. Like 20hp, even with my front mount IC.
The cars been dynod on many ocasions at 30hp 30lbft more than this.
I logged my trip home again...
Max torque......Max bhp
186.4554208.....171.244475
The max air flow was 151 this time... (at about 6000rpm)
So does the MAF appere to be ok then (since it matched with other results)
Bump.... any more feedback...
Still got problems that i need to get to the botton of...
Originally posted by m0rk
Revo's email & prolly net access is down at the moment (blame BT) so I would guess it's nothing personal!
Mark
Are they back up and running?
I've seen kev on but i guess thats from home...
In the cooler concitions (13/14ºC) I got the same sort of flow figures and 180bhp 195ft/lb....
RichardBW
03-07-2003, 13:47
Sorry to have gone missing for a while. Internet was only problematic for a couple of days last week. I have just been v busy.
The figures given by myself before were a little optimistic for Ibiza readings. If you see anything like 150g/s under the maximum load for the car your MAF is probably fine. I was working on our own Ibiza last week and logged this as a comparison and guess what; My MAF is ****ed.I could just about see 105g/s under load conditions. Car is at dealers today for service, new MAF and a list of the usual SEAT faults to be rectified.