View Full Version : What sort of power can jabba get from a Hybrid K04 LCR?
hi jabba, ive got a LCR with a few mods
K04 Hybrid
Forge comp Fmic
Sachs clutch
Arrows Uprated rods
oversized pistons
uprated crank bearins
Forge tip
forge 007p
supersprint d cat
milltek cat back non res
4 bar fuel reg
smoothed air box pipercross panel filter,3'inch air feed
just had engine build what sort of power would you expect?:confused:
westallc
25-01-2009, 18:15
more like about 340 mate :)
more like about 340 mate :)not a chance,unless you know different?
jonesya3
25-01-2009, 19:36
more like about 340 mate :)
as above more like 300bhp on a standard k04
jonathanp
25-01-2009, 19:52
post is titled hybrid k04
I will have a similar setup once I've had my internals done so interested as well.
Currently its not as good as my standard K04 with APR map, I'm hoping it'll live up to all the hype once I get it mapped properly
jonesya3
25-01-2009, 19:53
post is titled hybrid k04
I will have a similar setup once I've had my internals done so interested as well.
Currently its not as good as my standard K04 with APR map, I'm hoping it'll live up to all the hype once I get it mapped properly
well spotted ;)
teach me for not reading the title
now my engine has done 4000 miles feels really strong an fast was 271bhp/320ftlb 500 miles after engine build an oil change,now it feels faster killed a evo 8 ralliart the other day lol
wild willy
25-01-2009, 21:02
320 bhp depending on mods.
Johnathan..... the hybrid should pee on a standard K04. Get a forge actuator on it with a 10 psi spring.
Its a great turbo but boost spike control is a must or it will end in tears.
I'm going to commit self harm here but what the hell............ imho it is a far more drivable solution than some of the big turbo's out there, and out of choice if money was no object i would go this route over BT.
what do u mean by this mate?
Get a forge actuator on it with a 10 psi spring.
Its a great turbo but boost spike control is a must or it will end in tears.
wild willy
25-01-2009, 22:01
If the actuator has an insuffient spring in it (for instance stock 6psi) it will never make good figures.when i initially installed my hybrid i was disapointed as it wasn't any better than when it was stock. The problem was the actuator was still stock. When i replaced the actuator with a forge one and sprung it to 10psi......it delivered the goods (1.5 bar at red line).
Because hybrid turbos tend to be compressor heavy they spike high during spool up. This can kill your clutch and rods as it has been measured to be inexcess of 365ftlbs of torque. easy solution is to have it correctly mapped (seems obvious but many mappers miss the point since requested boost during the spiking period must be low )or run a mbc.
my hybrid has got a uprated actuator not sure on the spring, mine spikes at 1.7bar and holds at 1.5bar to redline, what power is yours willy?
jonathanp
25-01-2009, 22:21
I have an uprated actuator and 10psi (although I think it needs more preload on the rod) however the map seems to be the problem on my setup due to it being held back an awful lot so not to bend a rod (think they went overkill though)
no spike on my car just 16-17 psi to the redline, unless I lift off and WOT over 4k in which case I get 25+ PSI (off the gauge)
I'm in a agreement with you Carl I looked at going GT turbos or IHI but going by what was advertised I thought the hybrid would be a more driveable car, torque comes in fast at low revs but still makes good power up top.
Interesting you say that about mappers and requested boost, from what I've seen/heard they just can't control the boost on this type of turbo if they increase the load in the ecu (not sure if this is the right term) to make it spool quick and produce good torque the turbo just runs away with itself before the ecu can bring it back under control. I'm not sure if its the ECU or the N75 that can't catch it quick enough but it looks like the best solution is to get an MBC or EBC (like you've done) to either control the boost fully or run in parallel to bring the spike under control.
wild willy
25-01-2009, 22:34
my hybrid has got a uprated actuator not sure on the spring, mine spikes at 1.7bar and holds at 1.5bar to redline, what power is yours willy?
I honestly couldn't tell you. I'd like to think 300bhp:shrug:. I'm always adjusting the tune of the car.
I'm aiming to adjust it so no spikes are present, to peak to 1.4bar and hold it to red line.
The person who built the hybrid told me it was capable of making 2 bar but that is just crazy boost on a hybrid.
Too me its all about drivability, i could make silly figs on a dyno and the next day blow my engine. no thanks.
What we all need chaps is a decent exhaust mani to finish the install. A few are talking about it but not much action.:rolleyes:
wild willy
25-01-2009, 22:37
I have an uprated actuator and 10psi (although I think it needs more preload on the rod) however the map seems to be the problem on my setup due to it being held back an awful lot so not to bend a rod (think they went overkill though)
no spike on my car just 16-17 psi to the redline, unless I lift off and WOT over 4k in which case I get 25+ PSI (off the gauge)
I'm in a agreement with you Carl I looked at going GT turbos or IHI but going by what was advertised I thought the hybrid would be a more driveable car, torque comes in fast at low revs but still makes good power up top.
Interesting you say that about mappers and requested boost, from what I've seen/heard they just can't control the boost on this type of turbo if they increase the load in the ecu (not sure if this is the right term) to make it spool quick and produce good torque the turbo just runs away with itself before the ecu can bring it back under control. I'm not sure if its the ECU or the N75 that can't catch it quick enough but it looks like the best solution is to get an MBC or EBC (like you've done) to either control the boost fully or run in parallel to bring the spike under control.
Trust me Johnathon, you have a good turbo there. Tell JBS to up the rquested or take it to Bill to make minor map adjustments.
will bill from badger5 is looking in to making me one,ive sent him my old cracked one to size up
wild willy
25-01-2009, 22:39
I'm not too far away from getting my car sorted with the SEM intake mani which i'm sure is a good complement to the hybrid set up. I'll post up in a hybrid thread if the figures are convincing.
wild willy
25-01-2009, 22:41
will bill from badger5 is looking in to making me one,ive sent him my old cracked one to size up
exhaust mani..... oh please keep us informed on any progress. His BT mani is top notch.
ibizacupra
26-01-2009, 13:35
320 bhp depending on mods.
Johnathan..... the hybrid should pee on a standard K04. Get a forge actuator on it with a 10 psi spring.
Its a great turbo but boost spike control is a must or it will end in tears.
I'm going to commit self harm here but what the hell............ imho it is a far more drivable solution than some of the big turbo's out there, and out of choice if money was no object i would go this route over BT.
how many BT's have you driven to compare?
just wondering how the drive vs spool compared etc..
thx
traumapat
26-01-2009, 13:48
[QUOTE=jonathanp;2260722]
I'm in a agreement with you Carl I looked at going GT turbos or IHI but going by what was advertised I thought the hybrid would be a more driveable car, torque comes in fast at low revs but still makes good power up top.
QUOTE]
out of interest do you have a dyno plot? what rpm is full torque and whats the power band like?
my IHI is very drivable (VF23) so im interested in how the hybrid performs better?
Bill, only comparison I can do is with Jim's A4 as that's the only one I've actually driven, but I've been out in John W's (can't remember what spec at the time).
Hybrid K04 pulled much better at low revs. Perhaps it lacked the top end - not really sure that there was a significant difference, apart from the breathing was obviously better than a stock K04 as it held/carried on pulling rather than the characteristic drop-off. Jim's had more top end, but the rev limiter kicked in. Hybrid spooled earlier than Jim's and John's, and was less mental than John's. Jim's spooled and then pulled, John's spooled and went BWAAAARRRRRR. APR vs Revo?
It felt JUST like a K04 (that big shove you get low down) but even more, almost like it had been remapped again, if that makes sense. Always thought it might spool later than a stock K04, but in reality, it didn't (seem) to. This was with JBS's equal length manifold.
Cracking for a road car.
JBS have the JBS05, don't they? They might offer some better comparisons.
balsy and willy ,which/whos hybrid turbo are you running and is it a straight swap fit keeping all the o.e downpipe,feeds and returns and air intake?
Cant believe no one makes a stock position replacement turbo manifold for the 225 engine :confused:, id buy one today!!
Dave
jonathanp
26-01-2009, 15:40
I have the JBS05 on mine, they have a dyno plot on their original thread from November 2007
Jonathanp, is it a worthwhile way to go,can you feel a noticable power gain ,does it hold power better at higher revs.
Any info / thoughts please im very interested.
Dave
mine just pulls like a train in every gear just wants to go an go an go
wild willy
26-01-2009, 19:02
how many BT's have you driven to compare?
just wondering how the drive vs spool compared etc..
thx
In all honesty I haven't driven any to compare and for that reason my opinion is clearly one sided but i'm kind of going on the plots i've seen posted up over the years and listening to peoples comments. I'm not one for all out power simply after the most i can get without compromising on drivability and spool etc. I've tried running on mbc only since fitting the SEM and it spools up very early so much so my mapping throws a limp code. Its a great turbo but time will tell on its ability to flow mid BT boost at red line over a long service period.
wild willy
26-01-2009, 19:07
[QUOTE=jonathanp;2260722]
I'm in a agreement with you Carl I looked at going GT turbos or IHI but going by what was advertised I thought the hybrid would be a more driveable car, torque comes in fast at low revs but still makes good power up top.
QUOTE]
out of interest do you have a dyno plot? what rpm is full torque and whats the power band like?
my IHI is very drivable (VF23) so im interested in how the hybrid performs better?
Performing better is simply my opinion, will never out power your setup. Will outspool and be cheaper though. No dyno plots I'm sfraid but I'm hoping soon. Certainly not a my hybrid is better that your BT setup or any BS like that more a case of horses for courses and peoples individual equirements. Many people may see it as a poor mans attempt at BT but i like it. :)
is it the jbs05 you run willy.
So what are we looking at realistically,something like 40 bhp over a standard k04-23 maybe??
Dave
edit johnathan and willy ,are there old threads of your hybrid installs somewhere i can read please.
wild willy
26-01-2009, 22:55
is it the jbs05 you run willy.
So what are we looking at realistically,something like 40 bhp over a standard k04-23 maybe??
Dave
edit johnathan and willy ,are there old threads of your hybrid installs somewhere i can read please.
Theres a big one on my hybrid from a while back on here i think it was called something like hybrid K04 discussion.
my turbo was imported from the states but the manufacturer has ceased trading. It is ceramic coated etc. If your interested turbo Dynamics and Cr turbos will hybrid your current turbo for about £500....... Highly recommended.
Max power is a difficult one to call, but my standard ko4 made approx 260bhp at Awesome measuring 190g/sec mass airflow, 1.15bar at red line.
The hybrid runs 1.45 bar at red line ( it will hold higher) and records approx 240g/sec. so i would guestimate 290-320bhp.
Its feels night and day to a stage 2 LCR.
wild willy
26-01-2009, 22:57
A little off topic but does anyone have plots of the GT2x turbo in hybrid form so i can compare against the hybrid K04.
Really, cr turbos will hybrid my current turbo for 500 quid........:D
how come jbs and backdrafts hybrids are about a grand then, are they done to a better spec.:confused:
Anyone used cr turbos to hybridise there k04-23 ....howd it go?
What warranty do you get?
Dave
traumapat
27-01-2009, 09:33
[QUOTE=traumapat;2261532]
Performing better is simply my opinion, will never out power your setup. Will outspool and be cheaper though. No dyno plots I'm sfraid but I'm hoping soon. Certainly not a my hybrid is better that your BT setup or any BS like that more a case of horses for courses and peoples individual equirements. Many people may see it as a poor mans attempt at BT but i like it. :)
im not asking as a willy waving thing as mine will ALWAYS be biggest :lol:. It`s intersting to know what people can get off a k0 turbo these days. please do get that map up as id guess i have one of the quicker spooling BT set ups and would like to compare.
wish you well with it, another turbo option can only be a good thing:)
jonathanp
27-01-2009, 11:32
Jonathanp, is it a worthwhile way to go,can you feel a noticable power gain ,does it hold power better at higher revs.
Any info / thoughts please im very interested.
Dave
Sorry for the late reply Dave, in its current form its not really any different to a standard K04.
Once I get my internals done I'm hoping to get up to around 310bhp as I have the forge FMIC and full turbo back exhaust with decat. Also hoping to add water injection and the manfiold when its ready. Currently its running around 260/270bhp I estimate
If you're looking at getting a JBS05 there really no point doing it in unless you're going to have your engine internals done. I don't know or have heard of anyone with JBS05 having their internals done and having it setup properly so don't really know what to expect from it. I know one guy on here has an ibiza with the JBS05 but his is mapped similar to mine IIRC
Maybe we should split this thread seems to be abit unfair to talk about other companies products in the jabba section
jabbasport
27-01-2009, 13:07
It's not a problem, at the end of the day this looks like a valuable discussion on turbo selection :)
I'll be completely honest to B3LSY, we haven't mapped a car with these particular modifications so i wouldn't be able to give you an accurate figure on what we'd be able to achieve from your vehicle.
Sorry for the late reply Dave, in its current form its not really any different to a standard K04.
Once I get my internals done I'm hoping to get up to around 310bhp as I have the forge FMIC and full turbo back exhaust with decat. Also hoping to add water injection and the manfiold when its ready. Currently its running around 260/270bhp I estimate
If you're looking at getting a JBS05 there really no point doing it in unless you're going to have your engine internals done. I don't know or have heard of anyone with JBS05 having their internals done and having it setup properly so don't really know what to expect from it. I know one guy on here has an ibiza with the JBS05 but his is mapped similar to mine IIRC
Maybe we should split this thread seems to be abit unfair to talk about other companies products in the jabba section
thanks for reply..
why do you need engine internals doing to get the best from the jbs05, i thought the engine could take 350 bhp on standard internals??:confused:
tbh mines already got uprated rods and valves so would that be ok for what were talking?
Mine has big fmic too and full 3 inch exhaust including down pipe.
Dave
My Ibiza is running the JBS05 (AYP engine) i asked for mine to be mapped within a safe limit as i'm not willing to run huge amounts of boost on stock internals.
Currently i see a 20psi spike and it holds 17psi to redline, it hasn't been on the rollers as yet but at a guess i'd say it's around the 270/280bhp mark (will be going on the rollers next month at AMD)
After the rolling road day i'll be pulling the block apart and uprating the rods and hopefully 3" d/p and mani when it's available, then i'll look at getting it set up again and seeing what it's really capable of with stronger insides
jonathanp
27-01-2009, 18:05
thanks for reply..
why do you need engine internals doing to get the best from the jbs05, i thought the engine could take 350 bhp on standard internals??:confused:
tbh mines already got uprated rods and valves so would that be ok for what were talking?
Mine has big fmic too and full 3 inch exhaust including down pipe.
Dave
I was under the same impression as well. Long story short is I was expecting a similar setup to what was advertised in their original thread after a few return visits they said this is as much as they will push it without me signing a disclaimer to say if my engine pops its not their fault sorta thing.
Originally they said it was due to fears that a rod would snap as the turbo spools so quick and generates a lot of torque very quickly at low revs, since then they've also said they don't want to run more boost at high rpms either as they believe this will cause the engine to fail due to cylinder temps etc.
I imagine you'll be fine as your engine has been upgraded anyway and the valves should cope better if the cylinder temps are too high.
wild willy
27-01-2009, 20:04
I was under the same impression as well. Long story short is I was expecting a similar setup to what was advertised in their original thread after a few return visits they said this is as much as they will push it without me signing a disclaimer to say if my engine pops its not their fault sorta thing.
Originally they said it was due to fears that a rod would snap as the turbo spools so quick and generates a lot of torque very quickly at low revs, since then they've also said they don't want to run more boost at high rpms either as they believe this will cause the engine to fail due to cylinder temps etc.
I imagine you'll be fine as your engine has been upgraded anyway and the valves should cope better if the cylinder temps are too high.
I don't agree with that.
But they don't mind fitting an ihi BT kit on standard internals but not a k04 hybrid. The torque is strong but only if allowed to be.
On the cylinder temps front they were saying in their write up on how they managed to keep the egts with thier mapping below 700 degrees @ 1.45 bar redline, which is remarkably low, but now concerned about high cylinder temps.
They also wrote that with one of thier exhaust manis they believed 340bhp was achievable, no mention of internals then.
Quite poor really.
jonathanp
27-01-2009, 21:19
I don't agree with that.
Thats whats got me so frustrated, they advertise a product and what its capable of and then when you actually get the work carried out and pay for it you find out its totally different. Its like the nationwide adverts "sorry thats for development cars only". If I wanted to I'm pretty sure I'd have a very strong case to get all my money refunded and get the car put back to how it was, it may end up going that way but we'll see.
But they don't mind fitting an ihi BT kit on standard internals but not a k04 hybrid. The torque is strong but only if allowed to be.
I thought the same about the IHI's cars they have done plus LCR's with CC2 run a 1.5bar spike and hold 1.1/1.2bar at the red line, yet they don't want mine to spike above 1.2 bar??? (unless its in between gears in which case it goes off the gauge which reads 25psi)
I think the truth of it is they can't control the boost properly with the CC software, might not be a limitation of the software could be down to the ECU or N75 but regardless I was told they could set the boost spike to whatever I wanted and then hold what ever amount I want to the redline. Originally I asked for a 1.5 spike and to hold this to the red line they agreed this and then changed their mind when they actually brought the car in.
On the cylinder temps front they were saying in their write up on how they managed to keep the egts with thier mapping below 700 degrees @ 1.45 bar redline, which is remarkably low, but now concerned about high cylinder temps.
I'm pretty sure standard chipped LCR's run higher EGT's than 700
Running logs on mine I get EGT's as high as 935 sometimes yet they drop pretty quick, so how can an S3 with standard intercoolers, standard exhaust, samco tip (same as mine) , green panel filter (same as mine) and 4BAR fpr have lower EGT's than mine but run a 1.8bar spike and hold 1.45bar to the red line.
When I asked about this they started to point towards the FMIC, my air filter (which is the same as the S3's) and the blueflame exhaust as being possible reasons for this. Not sure how the forge FMIC can be any worse than the twin SMIC's and maybe the blueflame isn't the best turbo back system but i'd still expect it to be better than the stock setup.
Maybe they run it extremely rich to keep temps down, might be why the S3 has a 4BAR fpr and they said mine would be fine with the standard fpr yet I'm getting fault codes of "maf signal too high" which I think normally indicates a fuelling issue
They also wrote that with one of thier exhaust manis they believed 340bhp was achievable, no mention of internals then.
Quite poor really.
Nope I've seen plenty of enquiries about the JBS05 but never seen them suggest they need rods if if they want to push it above normal K04 levels
Bit glad to get some of this off my chest been bothering me for some time now. I put a deposit on all of this and the manifold back in November 2007 yet I still don't have the setup I wanted and the manifold isn't even ready yet
wild willy
27-01-2009, 22:02
I agree with all you say there mate, they are being a bit naughty to say the least.
Did you pay for a full CC remap, if so you should not be getting the "maff signal too high signal". I had this code and its basically the maff is seeing so much air due to increased power of the turbo it thinks theres a fault. I had to use an oversized maff tube to reduce the g/s seen by the maff sensor to prevent the code, but I'm still running standard stage 2APR. Custom remapping however should allow for the extra air flow. Crappy mapping mate.
I made 900 degs egts on standard stage 1 map so 700 degs is unlikely imho @300bhp on this hybrid. :rolleyes:
I think you've been missold a package mate, and a poor advert for thier hybrid package.
Questioning your forge fmic, blue flame turbo back and air filter is a joke surely....
Bit glad to get some of this off my chest been bothering me for some time now.
I bet. [:@]
Great thread guys and really good read without being a willy waving contest or slagging off tuners etc.
jonathanp
29-01-2009, 10:35
not sure how to read that, lol, were you being sincere?
Sorry yes I was being sincere.
It could have degraded into a slagging match but it didn't and theres some great infor about the set up and there benifits and expectations
jabbasport
29-01-2009, 16:35
I agree, brilliant topic discussing pros and cons of kits.
Top stuff guys..
so in reality then, are claims of 300 bhp from a hybrid k04 just not true? at least if you want some form of long term reliability. :confused:
Dave
jonathanp
31-01-2009, 11:25
I'm hoping so, I would of thought with internals done and decent filter, IC and exhaust you should see close to 310bhp. Might need to change injectors or FPR bit of a grey area though
wild willy
09-09-2009, 22:07
A quick update on my recent K04 hybrid Logs with a new maff. Pulling well but my mbc needs tweaking to lower boost.
Group A: '003
RPM Mass Flow Load Ign. Timing
TIME
STAMP /min g/s % °BTDC
120.3 2920 60.03 19.6 29.3
120.9 3200 119.17 95.7 21
121.6 3680 190.69 100 9.8
122.21 4200 196.56 100 6.8
122.81 4680 209.31 100 11.3
123.41 5120 226.28 100 13.5
124.02 5520 234.83 100 13.5
124.62 5920 242.25 100 12.8
125.22 6240 244.92 99.6 11.3
125.83 6560 246.44 99.6 15
126.44 6800 246.44 99.6 15.8
Group B: '118
RPM Temperature Load Absolute Pres.
TIME
STAMP /min °C % mbar
119.99 2840 18 0 1290
120.6 3040 20 59.2 1520
121.2 3400 21 75.7 2210
121.91 3960 21 75.3 2540
122.51 4440 21 75.7 2540
123.11 4920 21 76.1 2540
123.72 5320 22 77.3 2540
124.32 5720 23 80 2500
124.92 6080 24 82 2420
125.53 6400 24 83.1 2370
126.14 6680 26 81.2 2380
246 g/sec not too bad for a hybrid.;)
Intake, exhaust mani and wmi on the list.
Nice...
246x1.31 = 322 but I'm sure you've already done that calculation.
Looks like a nice big chunk of extraness in the middle also. Could do with overlaying that on a "normal" K04 log...
Impressive. :yes:
What do you reckon your boost spikes to now, Carl?
wild willy
10-09-2009, 12:40
Nice...
246x1.31 = 322 but I'm sure you've already done that calculation.
Looks like a nice big chunk of extraness in the middle also. Could do with overlaying that on a "normal" K04 log...
When i was in college i was an excel wizard, these skills have since left and when ever i try to graph these days i get problems with the axis's.
I'll try and get a decent Rolling Road print out before the years through.
wild willy
10-09-2009, 12:46
Impressive. :yes:
What do you reckon your boost spikes to now, Carl?
Maff's are tricky things, since because i was making good figures with my current one i didn't want to waste money on a new one. I'm glad i did since my current one was maxing out at 235g/sec and nomatter what mods i've done to the car recently i couldn't improve upon the air flow.
Without the mbc there is a massive shove in the back but too dangerous on stock rods, with the mbc there is no shove as such just a progressive pull. After i've fitted the maff the boost has increased across the range :shrug: and now i need to retweak to get the peak boost to remain within the limits of the map sensor. I'd like to think that i'm boosting to 1.6bar max but maybe a little more.
I need some snow performance love and rods.:)
morrischad
10-09-2009, 20:49
Maff's are tricky things, since because i was making good figures with my current one i didn't want to waste money on a new one. I'm glad i did since my current one was maxing out at 235g/sec and nomatter what mods i've done to the car recently i couldn't improve upon the air flow.
Without the mbc there is a massive shove in the back but too dangerous on stock rods, with the mbc there is no shove as such just a progressive pull. After i've fitted the maff the boost has increased across the range :shrug: and now i need to retweak to get the peak boost to remain within the limits of the map sensor. I'd like to think that i'm boosting to 1.6bar max but maybe a little more.
I need some snow performance love and rods.:)
Whats an mbc? had mine mapped at jabba this time last year, was getting 26psi spike and holding at around 22-23psi, when accelerating using torque instead of gearing down it used to make like a daffy duck noise when lifting off the throttle,hasn't done that for ages though and dont quite feel as quick, it now spikes at 24 psi and holds at around 20-21psi, i've replaced the boost pipe ( afterwards ) as it was leaking when i had it mapped and a replacement could'nt been sourced at that time, so a temp repair was done,still no quicker, even paid JBS an hour's labour to try and find a possible boost leak or whatever else it could be, they could not find anything wrong but said 26psi boost when mapped was high and i could have an hairline crack in turbo, thing is though, it has'nt got any slower since the 1st drop around 11 mths ago, sorry for going on a bit but i'm also interested in the hybrid route, Excellent thread by the way :D
jonathanp
11-09-2009, 13:50
Not sure why JBS said 26psi was high, they mapped mine to 27 and said it would be ok, no mention of crack or anything etc
Are you still on standard rods?
Multiplied by 1.25 was the correct factor for me and it was bang on, so 246 x 1.25 = 307.5bhp which sounds more realistic.
26/27psi sounds crazy to me on a KKK turbo, asking for trouble IMO, that's pushing the turbo very hard and endangering other parts too.
wild willy
12-09-2009, 09:32
Multiplied by 1.25 was the correct factor for me and it was bang on, so 246 x 1.25 = 307.5bhp which sounds more realistic.
26/27psi sounds crazy to me on a KKK turbo, asking for trouble IMO, that's pushing the turbo very hard and endangering other parts too.
Agreed,ideally i'd like to spike to 1.5 bar and hold 1.4 bar to red line. High psi on small turbos is no good for the long term.
I'm hoping to be over 300bhp so any extra will be a bonus.
Rob,my understanding (very limited) of the extra power gained by the wmi is not aparant in extra g/sec being measured by the maff since no extra air is being drawn in ,more a case of making the most of what you have. Did you have before and after air mass logs to see if this is the case.
jonathanp
12-09-2009, 09:37
I agree I'd prefer to run mine at 23 peak hold that ill the red line. I was just suprised that they would map their own hybrid one way but then map someone elses different. Maybe there turbo is stronger but from what a lot of people have said it looks as though the hybrid turbos are very similar and possibly all come from the same place.
Multiplied by 1.25 was the correct factor for me and it was bang on, so 246 x 1.25 = 307.5bhp which sounds more realistic.
26/27psi sounds crazy to me on a KKK turbo, asking for trouble IMO, that's pushing the turbo very hard and endangering other parts too.
Different compression ration, though. Easiest way to work it out is to look at stock power and stock g/sec.
Rob,my understanding (very limited) of the extra power gained by the wmi is not aparant in extra g/sec being measured by the maff since no extra air is being drawn in ,more a case of making the most of what you have.
Mine also, TBH.
Re Excel graphing - you have to pick an unusual graph type, can't remember... Send me your logs and I'll stick it on that graph I did 2 (?) years ago...
jonathanp
12-09-2009, 12:06
I wonder how much affect VVT has on the 1.8T's in regards to chipping and high boost? I've read before you can get better gains on a VVT engine over a non VVT but is it something that increases as horsepower increases?
My understanding of MAF calculations is that it just measures the volume of air (shouldn't matter whether its hot or cold as hot air wont cool down the MAF wire as much as cold air even if there is more of it)
I'm guessing the ECU uses the MAF figure along with fuel injected and timing to produce the torque figure. However I'm not a believer in using MAF to calculate bhp as it depends on how affective your IC's are, what AFR your using and what timing is set.
However I'm not a believer in using MAF to calculate bhp as it depends on how affective your IC's are, what AFR your using and what timing is set.
It's an indication, that's all.
jonathanp
12-09-2009, 12:30
Yeah but I reckon it could get fairly inaccurate when comparing different cars. You could get a GT turbo and a KKK turbo producing the similar boost and similar MAF figure but I'd expect the GT turbo to produce more power.
I could see it working if you had your car RR'd and made a note of your MAF at peak power you can then use that as base.
the highest reading on my MAF is 248g/s which could work out to 322bhp but at the same time I know my intake temps were 40 degrees or more
Dani_b19
12-09-2009, 16:42
So what is a MBC guys?
VVT has nothing todo with the power, it only kicks in at tick over, i think, its not like the vtec engines, its only for emssions if i remeber.
Dani_b19
12-09-2009, 18:02
Ooh silly me haha. Cheers mate.
i believe my backdraft k04 hybrid was set up to run 1.6 bar tailing to 1.4 and it made 308 bhp, i wanted 300, so seeing as it was a new untested one off build we backed boost off just a nadge till it made 300, didnt want to push a small turbo hard straight away till i got a feel for it.
Ive done several hard trackdays now and the turbo is an absolute peach
Imo with the jbs manifold and a remap adding thast bit of boost back in it will make a genuine 320-330 bhp.
My cars got good accompanying mods but it shows the potential none the less.
Dave
wild willy
12-09-2009, 22:27
i believe my backdraft k04 hybrid was set up to run 1.6 bar tailing to 1.4 and it made 308 bhp, i wanted 300, so seeing as it was a new untested one off build we backed boost off just a nadge till it made 300, didnt want to push a small turbo hard straight away till i got a feel for it.
Ive done several hard trackdays now and the turbo is an absolute peach
Imo with the jbs manifold and a remap adding thast bit of boost back in it will make a genuine 320-330 bhp.
My cars got good accompanying mods but it shows the potential none the less.
Dave
Do you have vagcom,
can you post some logs for us to compare.
no i dont have vagcom sorry, it prob wouldnt work as my car isnt vag.:think:
However if anyone with vagcom whos local wants to try then im game for a laugh.
My car could be somewhat different in its outputs to an lcr as it has different gearbox so different tranny losses and also as it was purpose built it had a full 3 inch exhaust from the turbo back with no cats (trackcar) and a front mount intercooler etc which will all help release a few extra horses.
However wether its 280 or 320 is neither here nor there cause its brutally rapid either way ,lol.
watch this repeated straight line acceleration against a lotus 2 eleven, 260 bhp supercharged and 760 kilos makes the little lotus 320 bhp/ton and my car reels it in no probs.
Watch full screen and turn up the sound!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4pm1bDBsvU
Dave
ibizacupra
13-09-2009, 16:59
am i seeing an MG?
with 1.8t in there yea?
:)
:thumbup:
nice... lightweight + power..
sweet ride
wild willy
13-09-2009, 17:06
Awesome Dave, my car feels fast at 1250kg i can't imagine what a super lightweight version would feel like.
am i seeing an MG?
with 1.8t in there yea?
:)
:thumbup:
nice... lightweight + power..
sweet ride
yeah, thanks it was a V6 MG ZS 180, now its a 4 pot ZS 300 ,lol
it weighs 1010 kilos on the weighbridge and that includes a full 6 point weld in roll cage.
These vag turbo motors are the mutts nuts, wish id done it sooner, the torque is just immense.
see here, post 522 for my roller graph with hybrid k04...
http://forums.xpowerforums.com/showthread.php?t=45705&highlight=project+landed+today&page=15
and here for exact same engine set up but with remapped standard k04 turbo..
http://forums.xpowerforums.com/showthread.php?t=45515&highlight=audi+engine
Dave
Awesome Dave, my car feels fast at 1250kg i can't imagine what a super lightweight version would feel like.
'Willy'?? lol
Have you had your car weighted?
wild willy
13-09-2009, 21:48
'Willy'?? lol
Have you had your car weighted?
No No, i thought thats what they weighed stock, am i a little off with my guestimate.:)
Na the LCR is a lardy assed motor.
1,356Kgs kerb weight not too sure whether wet or dry
Cupra is a svelt 1308kgs! :D Yours might be 1250 by now Willie with all the weight reduction.
wild willy
14-09-2009, 09:26
Na the LCR is a lardy assed motor.
1,356Kgs kerb weight not too sure whether wet or dry
Cheers Willie, my memory is shot :), How does that compare to the MK2 cupra as i'd like to know what bhp my lcr needs to have the same power to weight ratio as the 350 bhp stage 2+ Mk2 cars.
jonathanp
14-09-2009, 09:29
I'm not sure but IIRC the power to weight on the mk2 cupra is a tad lower than on the mk1 LCR
morrischad
15-09-2009, 21:00
Not sure why JBS said 26psi was high, they mapped mine to 27 and said it would be ok, no mention of crack or anything etc
Are you still on standard rods?
mmm, :think: dont know then, yeh still on standard rods why do you ask that?
Cheers Willie, my memory is shot :), How does that compare to the MK2 cupra as i'd like to know what bhp my lcr needs to have the same power to weight ratio as the 350 bhp stage 2+ Mk2 cars.
Weight is the same as the LCR, power is more and FAR FAR easier.
Would like to see MK2 LC and MK1 LCR with same power going for it but as we know to take a LCR to 350BHP is mega bucks where a MK2 LC only needs full exhaust, uprated fuel pump internals, CAI and Stage 2+ REVO
wild willy
16-09-2009, 09:17
Ok so the MK1 leon cupra is 1308KG
MK1 LCR is 1356KG
MK2 Cupra is currently 1375 KG.
So as you say Willie not much in the difference between the LCR and MK2 cupra.
48 kg difference between the MK1 Cupra and MK1 LCR is a fair bit of weight. Other than larger wheels, brembos and an extra intercooler what else contributes to the weight difference.
Cupra is a svelt 1308kgs! :D Yours might be 1250 by now Willie with all the weight reduction.
1308 kgs!?
from that small of a car!?
My A4 with the VR6 weighs in @ 2680 lbs = 1218 kg's!!!!
The B7 A4 2.0 TDI is 1,600Kgs.
Ok so the MK1 leon cupra is 1308KG
MK1 LCR is 1356KG
MK2 Cupra is currently 1375 KG.
So as you say Willie not much in the difference between the LCR and MK2 cupra.
48 kg difference between the MK1 Cupra and MK1 LCR is a fair bit of weight. Other than larger wheels, brembos and an extra intercooler what else contributes to the weight difference.
There was a post on this before and we couln't really come up with much more than the above.
'Slightly' heavier turbo
Sligthly heavier inlet manifold
Heavier wish bones
Heavier spare wheel
but not much really
48Kgs is alot, wish I could lose another 48Kgs out of my car:)
Might still be possible
jonathanp
16-09-2009, 11:23
hrm this is odd. I remember reading that the mk2 was 100kg over the mk1 lcr MY04 and also that power to weight was very similar. It was in an article comparing the two cars and they mentioned the mk2 has an increase in power but also an increase in weight
Hard to compare weights on cars though as some are dry weight and some are weight with fluids and passenger etc
wild willy
17-09-2009, 09:46
hrm this is odd. I remember reading that the mk2 was 100kg over the mk1 lcr MY04 and also that power to weight was very similar. It was in an article comparing the two cars and they mentioned the mk2 has an increase in power but also an increase in weight
Hard to compare weights on cars though as some are dry weight and some are weight with fluids and passenger etc
I had read the same and thought that the MK2 was considerably heavier.