View Full Version : Improved intercooler (A.K.A. Rage)
Was searching around and found that kempower (Belgium tuning company) makes uprated intercoolers for a bunch of cars. As I know Simon was looking into this. Trying to get them to send pic.
I know bigger is not necessarily better, but how do we know if they're really high quality intercoolers.
http://www.kempower.be/Intercooler/Seat_intercooler.htm
Wow thats seriously expensive
I'm pretty sure it's a gigantic front mount one. I'll wait and see.
No not cheap at all. I'm trying to get more info from them. For comparison the forge front mount intercooler for the audi A4 1.8T is £900.:D
I'd only be convinced to pick one up if I could get the car up to 200+hp.
Originally posted by Rage
same as that ^^^^^^^
Just hope it doesn't turn into a Rage vs. RB5 type thingy...:D ;)
Me too. I can't afford another mod frenzy like that one.
Found an auction on a 150 intercooler in case anyone is interested. Starting price of 350€ w/ tubing.
http://www.tuningonlineforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6677
slim_boy_fat
01-08-2003, 08:36
You know you guys an intercooler really doesnt make that much difference on a tdi, certanly not as much as on a petrol. Me thinks you are wasting your money, if you want 200bhp buy a cupra R..
Are you sure SBF?
I would think that it would be a good improvement. Especially since I can notice the difference between daytime & nighttime driving. The car is much quicker at night (especially when it's 40ºC+ during the day).
LoudIbiza
01-08-2003, 12:48
I am with SBF on this also. The diesel doesnt suffer that much from not getting enough air. I also remember Revo Richard talking about how you can put a PD through dyno as much as you like without getting heat soak affecting the numbers. So its not anything like the petrol 1.8T and how it suffers from heat.
slim_boy_fat
01-08-2003, 13:44
Originally posted by prc
Are you sure SBF?
I would think that it would be a good improvement. Especially since I can notice the difference between daytime & nighttime driving. The car is much quicker at night (especially when it's 40ºC+ during the day).
Day time tem 40 deg + night time temp less than 10 deg... You think an intercooler will be able to give you that kind of drop.. Dont thinkk so. Remember we are talking about putting a biger intercooler on a car that ALREADY has one, so you are looking at 2-3% better coolong for £1000 or whatever. Not a good investment.
As with all engin power increases the higher up the graph you go the more each extra bhp costs.
My advice not that anyone will or ever does listen would be to spend £1000 on performance driving lessons or buy a cart and go racing if you need speed so much.
Me, i am saving for a caterham R400
No, I was just trying to figure out how many more HP could be gotten from uping the intercooler.
I still think the 150 intercooler might be a good buy for one of you 130 guys (if it fits), especially if it goes for €350 (I guess it's about £200).
I dought I would ever spend that kind of money (£1000), unless I was keeping the car for 5-7yrs, which is out of the question with the mileage I run yearly.
Originally posted by prc
No, I was just trying to figure out how many more HP could be gotten from uping the intercooler.
I still think the 150 intercooler might be a good buy for one of you 130 guys (if it fits), especially if it goes for €350 (I guess it's about £200).
I dought I would ever spend that kind of money (£1000), unless I was keeping the car for 5-7yrs, which is out of the question with the mileage I run yearly.
I thought a uprated IC didnt gain you BHP, but held your current BHP for longer by containing the higher temps, thus holding the power you have got for longer.
I dunno? Thought that it cooled the air a bit more -3 or -4 degrees when compared to OE. thus giving you some more Hp.
Performance is definitely influenced by the outside temps. This week we've been experiencing 20ºC shifts in temperature from day to night.
The performance differences are pretty big.
if the air is cooler then its not as dense, thus more can be packed into the cylinders, thus more power can be produced. So a better more efficient intercooler will give a small rise in bhp.
muddyboots
01-08-2003, 15:54
Originally posted by sssstew if the air is cooler then its not as dense
Think you mean it's more dense when cooler...
power can be gained from i/c . if the pipe work is changed for a better bore or shorter smoother runns you will even gain psi ! and yes dense air = more power
Yep, it's denser air. As gilly mentions there is at least one small bore tube which I am looking at. Pic here (about 1/2 way down the page):
http://www.tuneline.at/news/110kWPD/110kWPD.htm
slim_boy_fat
01-08-2003, 16:13
theres allot of dense about here but its not the air!!;)
All I know is that there are a few 110 & a 115 mk4 golf running the 150 intercoolers with good results. I think all 3 have added more than 10hp (of course the where all previously chipped).
Of course I agree with you SBF, alot of ££££££ for 10hp is really not worth it for a daily driver.
slim_boy_fat
01-08-2003, 18:54
Indeed i have squeezed just about all i want to out of my tdi engin 176bhp and 286lb ft is more than enough.
Strut brace and some lowered springs next then that's it, no more being spent. Start saving for new car from now on...Well thats the plan!!!
Just got a respose from Kempower regarding the intercooler upgrade. Quote from e-mail:
The volume of the original intercoller is 3.10 litre and ours is 4.83 litre, which makes an upgrade of 56 % in efficiency. This can bring, depending on the extrenal temperature a gain from up to 12% in power and torque.
This intercooler replaces the original on the original place without major modifications.
Sounds great, unfortunately I really don't want to take out a 2nd morgage out. :(
SBF:
Just changing the springs? wouldn't it be best to wait and do shocks at the same time.
Save your Cash.
Get yourself an ERL water injection kit, with a separate tank.
I have seen Excellent results on cars in the past, and we used a mix of water and methanol, run the water spray down stream of the intercooler. Temp drop was very good.
Pound for pound much better than an upgraded cooler.
Darren
Do you have a price and location to get this system from ?
HERE (http://www.racetep.com/wik.html) is a nice cheap one from the states.
the ERL 1s is all you would need ERL make some very very nice kit HERE (http://www.interex.co.uk/system1.html) is the link £300 odd quid, may be able to get it cheaper.
Darren
Does this really work on diesel.
Not sure I want to inject water into my cylinders.
Why not go for the rear washer pipe plumbed onto the intercooler option - almost free, switch already on the dash etc. etc.
I'd have thought any gains you get from an intercooler come from it being less restrictive to air passing through the inlet system as much as it's cooling effect. That said if IC A can drop the charge temp by several degrees more than IC B in the same car and same conditions then it must help increase power a bit.
I'd also think that they work better the colder it is outside - they use ambient air to cool the air that has heated up due to being compressed by the turbo, if ambient temperature is higher then there will be smaller delta temp between the compressed and ambient (assuming the compressed air always heats to a similar temperature) so less charge cooling effect. Remember here that to increase boost by even 10psi in the cylinders requires a lot of compression in the very much smaller volume of the turbo housing, so the compressed temp will be quite high.
Bigger IC's will have the charge inside them for longer than small ones thus allowing the charge to cool for longer = cool more.
Finally, heat-soak is less to do with efficiency than location - the IC gets hot from the under bonnet temperatures and works less well because the metalwork as well as the air inside need to be cooled. Replacing a side- or top-mounted IC with a smaller FMIC would make huge improvements in this area and provided the size difference isn't too great would probably be better overall.
I don't see why diesels would not respond to intercooling as air is still a vital part of the mix and the denser the better, as with a petrol engine.
IIRC the 150 IC is front mounted, yes? I doubt it would fit behind the Ibiza's bumper but if it did then it would make a difference IMHO.
All of the above is just me applying common sense (as I see it) to my understanding of how the IC works. It could be bollox in other words!
Sounds fair enough.
I had thought of waiting until the 150 beezer comes out. If it has a FMIC then I'll probably get one.
Originally posted by Rage
Sounds fair enough.
I had thought of waiting until the 150 beezer comes out. If it has a FMIC then I'll probably get one.
All 150's have the FMIC.:D
What I'd really like is not to lose to much performance when it gets hot outside.
The avg temp outside has been around 35ºC which is really hot. If I could keep performance a bit more constant, be it with water injection and/or a bigger IC I'd probably do it (depending on price obviously). Thanks for the comments guys.
No you have to use the proper pump, remember the boost is quite high on the TDI, So it would just back pressure, a nice powerful pump and the correct jet will atomise a nice mist into the intercooler, and a nice 50/50 mix of methanol will keep things nice and cool.
Darren
Originally posted by darren7
No you have to use the proper pump, remember the boost is quite high on the TDI, So it would just back pressure, a nice powerful pump and the correct jet will atomise a nice mist into the intercooler, and a nice 50/50 mix of methanol will keep things nice and cool.
Darren
this could be a problem for me as the IC is mounted behind the AC.
dont need much room at all, the pump can be where you want it.
and only a small pipe is needed.
Darren
I was only talking about misting water over the outside of the IC to drop its temperature. Water injection is a whole new ball-game.
Ill try to find some more info out, but it is all good.
Darren
Originally posted by Fen
I was only talking about misting water over the outside of the IC to drop its temperature. Water injection is a whole new ball-game.
I actually think Pete (ICE MAN) was trying this on his cupra. I think the idea was to use a bigger windscreen washer bottle (the one off cars with the headlamp washing system). Not sure if he's running it though.
See here:http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21683
Chris (DU02) has done it.
Water and diesels don't work. Most diesels have a filter to drain water out of the fuel. This is because you get improper detonation, result is you can end up with bent pistons. Don't think that is the idea..!!
thought there might be some issue with compression of water.
Good point Niall. I think you might be able to get away with a tiny bit of water, but probably not enough to make any difference.
Paolo if you want a bigger intercooler. You could try one from a 2.5 V6 TDI as fitted to an A8. A friend has got an A8 TDI with a 2.5V6 TDI and the intercooler is large, the same size as a radiator of a normal car. Maybe that would be something.
The price for a 150Bhp intercooler from a golf is about 250 Euro´s seen this on the D&W site. They sell normal car parts as well now.
Originally posted by Niall
Paolo if you want a bigger intercooler. You could try one from a 2.5 V6 TDI as fitted to an A8. A friend has got an A8 TDI with a 2.5V6 TDI and the intercooler is large, the same size as a radiator of a normal car. Maybe that would be something.
The price for a 150Bhp intercooler from a golf is about 250 Euro´s seen this on the D&W site. They sell normal car parts as well now.
250€ ?? no way!! There selling for something like 400€ at the local dealer.:mad:
I have to look at the 2.5v6 intercooler to see if it's any bigger than the 150 intercooler. The 150 IC is actually pretty big, just not very thick.
I will check and see if the 2.5l or even the 3.3l tdi (as found on some a8) are bigger??? Then there's the problem with the IC mounts and plumbing!!!:(
If I could deffo get more hp at a much cheaper price than 1000€+VAT I would get the IC.
Paolo,
I will look at my friend´s car when he gets it back from the garage on friday. The Audi engine has the Turbo on the right when you look at it from above´.
The link is
D&W repair (http://www.duwrepair.de/pls/otto_01/P_Otto_Eweb.Aufrufen)
You have to click in the middle Ersatzteile, then Autoteile-shop, Kühlung/klima, Weiter für neukunden, weiter, weiter für neukunden, select Volkswagen from list, then weiter, then golf IV, weiter, then 1.9 liter , 2003, diesel, weiter, then ladeluftkühler, weiter, limousine 3 türig, weiter, 150ps,wieter.
Voila the price is 208,72 euro
Is any problems just post question.
Niall
thanks!
Just in case I don't get an upgraded IC, I'll definitely know where to pick one up if need be.
now this is an intercooler
Originally posted by m0rk
now this is an intercooler
The 150 IC is pretty big as well. ETKA doesn't give you a size on it, does it Mark?
The 150 IC pic here (sorry it's in Portugues, but a picture is worth 1000nd words):
http://www.tuningonlineforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6677
Size: 64cm x 41cm x 3cm length x height x thickness
errr sorry dont agree, look for things on the web about water injection on Turbo diesel engines, the water has nothing to do with the fuel system, and would be a fine mist directly into the down stream of the intercooler.
and the 130 Sport runs quite high boost thing get fairly hot. huge gains could be made
talk to (ERL) www.aquamist.co.uk you will find that they and others have done a lot of testing on TDI engines, they also have some studies that you can look at, that are nothing to do with there company.
do a little research before you say no.
Darren
Originally posted by m0rk
now this is an intercooler
THIS in an intercooler (and a big dump valve...
http://www.huntleyracing.com/intercoolers/spear002.jpg
944 Turbo in case you couldn't guess...
Originally posted by Fen
THIS in an intercooler (and a big dump valve...
944 Turbo in case you couldn't guess...
Nice one Fen, but I really don't like the blue engine cover!:p :D
micky 32
21-04-2004, 12:29
i did temperature logs on my own PD130 and a friends PD150 both tuned.
full throttle up to 90mph mine produce an air temp of up to 60 degrees, on the 150 it never went above 31 degrees! surely that temperature difference would have to effect drivability?
the 150 intercooler is fairly thin so shouldnt be a huge problem to get it to fit.
im thinking of upgrading my intercooler to the 150 one, got a price of vagparts, intercooler and all the associated hoses and post £438, which is probably between 6 and 700 euro.
i did temperature logs on my own PD130 and a friends PD150 both tuned.
full throttle up to 90mph mine produce an air temp of up to 60 degrees, on the 150 it never went above 31 degrees! surely that temperature difference would have to effect drivability?
the 150 intercooler is fairly thin so shouldnt be a huge problem to get it to fit.
im thinking of upgrading my intercooler to the 150 one, got a price of vagparts, intercooler and all the associated hoses and post £438, which is probably between 6 and 700 euro.
You will probably get some more Hp, but not much. You will probably get 4-5% more Hp, but remember you will need to get the turbo pressure checked, as you'll have a bigger pressure drop.
cpufreak
21-04-2004, 13:35
when my car was being revo'd. it had 6 runs on the dyno, and on the last run was showing a little heatsoak.
micky - let me know if it fits :D
It should fit...As I've said before diesels don't suffer as much from heat soak, so don't expect the same gains as on a petrol car.
Ehat bugs me on the OE cooler is the plastic end tanks...but I know it's the most efficent IC in the VAG lineup
micky 32
21-04-2004, 13:43
would there be much pressure drop? my boost peaks at 1.8bar. even if i lost pressure would the cooler air make up for it?
would there be much pressure drop? my boost peaks at 1.8bar. even if i lost pressure would the cooler air make up for it?
I can't give you exact values as I've never done the swap, but to give you an example of what happened on mine..
After swaping my FMIC for an uprated kempower one (same type of intercooler with 1.6L more volume) I got 100mbar pressure drop.
Now in your case your adding about the same volume + more tubing so you'd probably get the same or a bit more of a pressure drop.
micky 32
21-04-2004, 15:34
what bhp is yours pushing out? i gather you have a PD150, what engine mods?
what bhp is yours pushing out? i gather you have a PD150, what engine mods?
I'm pretty much in stock form right now except for some intake mods (see my sig).
I've got a few things, that just haven't gotten around to
exhaust = milltek (this month still)
Custom FMIC = mid next month
Hybrid turbo = Have it on work bench (will only install when OE one goes as I'm not planning to run extra boost with it in)
IC piping = have this and am experimenting (seems to control overboosting better).
In low boost I see easily above 190Hp. I've got at least 185Hp on tap from 3700rpm to 4700rpm (starts tailing off after this).
micky 32
21-04-2004, 16:56
my own PD 130 engine is totally stock also with just a remap which brought it to a healthy 176.1bhp and 334lb ft of torque, getting a full miltek system next week. does the miltek give any power gains, heard rumours up to 10 bhp?
cpufreak
21-04-2004, 17:08
miltek system for ibiza PD130 engines arne't out yet - I was told after Gti International.
334lb ft torque? quite a lot - hows the gearbox/clutch coping with that?
micky 32
21-04-2004, 17:11
miltek system for ibiza PD130 engines arne't out yet - I was told after Gti International.
334lb ft torque? quite a lot - hows the gearbox/clutch coping with that?
oops forgot to mention i have a golf,i can get a miltek for that. my clutch is having a hard time but its not too bad since the weather is starting to get warmer
I don't think you'll be able to get that much from the exhaust. From what I've seen here, typical numbers are about 4-7Hp but about +10-20Nm of torque.
You'll notice quicker spoolup on the turbo and will have lower EGT temps. That alone is reason to get it.