View Full Version : Green cotton or pipercross?
epts2008
11-06-2009, 23:04
Well I have had many disputes with friends over which panel filter is best I say piper cross others say green cotton just wondered what are your views on which one is best?
jamiebennett81
11-06-2009, 23:44
green cotton, less oily unlike other filters and is a popular brand on here
beezertart
11-06-2009, 23:54
i'm going green cotton when i can actually be arsed to order one for same reasons as above and for the fact i've already got the oil/cleaner kit,bargain,fiver in halfrauds:D nothing like cart before horse eh? ;)
Husbandofstinky
12-06-2009, 12:03
Most people use Green Cotton on here. I must admit I have no issues with them either. Good enough for me.
rosssifr
12-06-2009, 22:01
I'm selling my Pipercross Panel Filter for £25 posted recorded delivery if you're interested.I had it on an 08 plate ibiza FR Tdi. It was only on the car for just over 3 weeks and covered 700'ish miles.
I've posted info in the for sale section but it'll need to be cleared by the admins before its in the for sale section.
PM me if you're interested. Looking for payment through paypal.
Cheers Ross
Avoid oiled foam filters like Pipercross and Ramair as they can mess up the MAF meter - green cotton, Jetex or K&N should be fine.
Mark300zx
14-06-2009, 18:02
Avoid oiled foam filters like Pipercross and Ramair as they can mess up the MAF meter - green cotton, Jetex or K&N should be fine.
But aren't green cotton and K&N oiled as well?
Yes but they are only very lightly oiled.
epts2008
14-06-2009, 19:34
Does green cotton give you better bhp figures then as I know pipercross give 3-5hp what the green cotton one like as ive noticed they are rather more expensive?
josephj510
15-06-2009, 12:50
I have a Green cotton in My cupra R and dont haver any probs with it
karizma_fas
15-06-2009, 13:08
I have a Green cotton in My cupra R and dont haver any probs with it
Smae here.
Go Green!
cupramillo
30-11-2009, 20:18
Jetex all the way
harty190486
30-11-2009, 22:23
as above jetex all the way
have used pipercross twice, no problems.
wild willy
01-12-2009, 00:32
Jetex outflows Green, build quality as good, much cheaper. No brainer.
Again, Jetex. http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=242751
Jetex outflows Green.
And that matters because?
It really narks me when people roll out the old 'oiled filters' mess up the MAF arguement. This is a myth generated by dodgy sales marketing and a couple of unfortunate incidents by careless people heavily over-oiling after cleaning. (And i mean HEAVILY) MAFs are actually damaged by poorly plumbed PCV systems in modified induction systems.
What none of the manufacturers will tell you is the rate of air-flow degredation vs weight of accumliated particle contamination. I mean, when clean a standard paper filter will flow virtually as well as either a foam or cotton gauze filter. The relative advantages are more associated with the engine environment than flow. Both cotton and foam filters can absorb quite a lot of crud, but foam filters are easier to clean. Cotton filters can flow more air at high contamination levels.
As for one filter flowing 'better' than another, that's totally irrelevant. Your engine requires a set ammount of air so your filter is either restrictive or it isn't. If you need 300cfm there's no point having a filter rated a 600cfm. In fact you should find that it's exceptionally rare for a decent panel filter in the standad airbox to be restrictive, even with a bit of mild tuning.
For example, a K&N flows at approx 6cfm per sq inch when carrying 10000 miles worth of contamination. You spec the filter area accordingly and job done. It's not rocket science.
The slightly more complex matter is making sure the flow to the filter, and from the filter via the MAF to the inlet / turbo is un-restricted. Pipe-flow mechanics comes in there, but as a rule of thumb, if you keep the air velocity between mach 0.05 and 0.07 you're OK. (Mach 1 = speed of sound = 342m/s at room temp) This is where standard airboxes fall down...
In summary, fit whatever does an adequate job, is cheap and you are able to maintain. Anything over and above is a waste of money (unless of course you're going for aesthetics!) which inludes some CAI kits i have seen...
I have the logs to prove that a Jetex cone outflows a Green Cotton panel filter in a smoothed/drilled airbox when fitted to a stage 1 remapped car, this would not happen if I were already getting optimum airflow from my previous setup. I agree that there is no point in having an air filter that is rediculously over sized but with cars turbo charged cars that are mapped to run a higher boost some setups are definately better than others. This was certainly the case with me.
I have the logs to prove that a Jetex cone outflows a Green Cotton panel filter in a smoothed/drilled airbox when fitted to a stage 1 remapped car, this would not happen if I were already getting optimum airflow from my previous setup. I agree that there is no point in having an air filter that is rediculously over sized but with cars turbo charged cars that are mapped to run a higher boost some setups are definately better than others. This was certainly the case with me.
You've demonstrated (but not proved) that one system flows better than another, however you've missed the point. The discussion was related to one filter type vs another. Was it the filter or the airbox that restriced your flow previously?
Do you actually know what your peak airflow is?
How do you know your current system still isn't restrictive? (But less so than previously)
Also, is your cone part of a CAI system or does it sit in the engine bay?
You've demonstrated (but not proved) that one system flows better than another, however you've missed the point. The discussion was related to one filter type vs another. Was it the filter or the airbox that restriced your flow previously?
Do you actually know what your peak airflow is?
How do you know your current system still isn't restrictive? (But less so than previously)
Also, is your cone part of a CAI system or does it sit in the engine bay?
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1. If the discussion was one filter type vs another then you have to admit that post no. 17 went on a bit of a tangent, although it does point out that, "In fact you should find that it's exceptionally rare for a decent panel filter in the standad airbox to be restrictive, even with a bit of mild tuning".
2. Expected MAF is between 200-210g/s. This information is from Mike at JBS/Custom-Code.
3. Because my current maximum MAF reading is 209.14g/s, before it was 194.17g/s
4. It sits in the engine bay and does not currently have it's own CAI.
Re: no.1, point taken, although i was trying to get across the fact that people often make a decision on a component (the filter) based upon the performance of the (induction) system, which can be misleading.
The standard max airflow for a cupra would be about 442cfm / 0.209 cu m/s - that equates to 256g sec, although this assumes ideal conditions. I'd be making sure my induction system was rated for this flow!
Also, when you consider the max pipe flow speed of 23.94 m/s, that gives a min pipe diameter of 10.5 cm for anything feeding fresh air to the filter, or from the filter to the turbo.
BTW, the minimum required filter area for this flow is 74 square inches - not actually that much!
What diameter pipework do you have?
Also, it's worth bearing in mid you're increasing your inlet temp by not using a CAI so the speed of sound will reduce accordingly - sq.root (1.4 x 287 x Temp[kelvin]) - and necessitate a larger pipe.
An isolated cold air feed will give you a noticeable increase in power - as long as it's done properly!
Re: no.1, point taken, although i was trying to get across the fact that people often make a decision on a component (the filter) based upon the performance of the (induction) system, which can be misleading.
The standard max airflow for a cupra would be about 442cfm / 0.209 cu m/s - that equates to 256g sec, although this assumes ideal conditions. I'd be making sure my induction system was rated for this flow!
Also, when you consider the max pipe flow speed of 23.94 m/s, that gives a min pipe diameter of 10.5 cm for anything feeding fresh air to the filter, or from the filter to the turbo.
BTW, the minimum required filter area for this flow is 74 square inches - not actually that much!
What diameter pipework do you have?
Also, it's worth bearing in mid you're increasing your inlet temp by not using a CAI so the speed of sound will reduce accordingly - sq.root (1.4 x 287 x Temp[kelvin]) - and necessitate a larger pipe.
An isolated cold air feed will give you a noticeable increase in power - as long as it's done properly!
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The standard max airflow for a Leon Cupra would be closer to 137g/s. The standard max airflow for a Leon Cupra R 210 and 225 would be closer to 160g/s and 169g/s respectively. If it were 256g/s then these cars would develop power within the regeon of 335BHP.
Its also worth bearing in mind that turbo charged cars are forced induction by definition.
As far as the pipework goes I am using 80mm from the airfilter, through the MAF to a Forge tip which at no point has a smaller inside diametre than the turbo inlet. (A K04)
Since changing to my current setup my inlet temp has actually decreased by 8 degrees although I have no proof of the ambient temperatures at the time the logs were taken but they wont have differed by a significant enough amount to really effect the intake air density in the real world, nothing that the intercoolers can't take care of. My airfilter is situated as close to the wing as I can get it so is in the line of the OEM intake funnel and as far away from heat source as possible. I will, however be fitting a CAI in due course.
Dont get me wrong, your points are valid and very interesting and you clearly know your stuff but as we have well and truly hi-jacked this thread for which I must apologise to epts2008 I feel I have to ask, which do you prefer, Green Cotton or Pipercross?
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but as we have well and truly hi-jacked this thread for which I must apologise to epts2008 I feel I have to ask, which do you prefer, Green Cotton or Pipercross?
lol
Given the choice i'd go for the pipercross as i had quality issues with a green filter before. Generally i would use K&N as they are good quality and still flow well with a surprising ammount of dust and rubbish caked on the surface.
BTW, the flow rate is a function of the capacity, volumetric efficiency and any boost. A half decent (eg Alfa twin spark) normally aspirated 2 litre will require up to 205cfm which works out to about 119g per sec! The number i quoted was for the 240bhp Cupra, full boost @ 7000rpm.
Even with a turbo engine it's worth eliminating any pipe losses you can, and it's also worth bearing in mind the intercooler will reduce the charge temperature by a set ammout, so if your charge temp going into the intercooler is 3C cooler, so will the charge leaving the cooler. Every little helps! (Christ, i sound like an Asda advert...)
Lol. Ok mate, fair enough. We'll have to get together some time and discuss world peace. :) Oh, and that's off the Tesco ad.
wild willy
04-12-2009, 19:10
[QUOTE=james.g;2705584]And that matters because?
Its a valid reply to a valid question,
I speak from experience of doing literally hundreds of logs using both a Green and Jetex Filter. Most enthusiasts on this site want a high quality filter that both protects thier pride and joy and gives best performance. I was just offering my humble opinion, but bow down to your superior Knowledge.
Hey up Willy. Must seem like i've been having a go at you! Random coincidence i assure you..!
I suppose what i'm trying to do - probably badly - is give people a bit of fact / science to counter the endless sales jargon, pap and blather you get from industry. You would not believe the ammount of misinformation i see used to try to sell products, which i suppose isn't surprising given the money involved in the tuning market.
As for filters, i've found that K&N, Pipercross, ITG & Jetex filters are fine and will do a perfectly good job. All will flow at least 4cfm if you clean them annually, so you can easily work out what filter size you need. All filters benefit from running in an isolated cold air environment, either through being in an airbox, or baffling a cone. You will always benefit from reducing the restriction from the inlet piping (details i posted before).
To be honest that's about it! It does eliminate a lot of 'which is best' arguements and turns it into 'both are good enough'.
Of course there is the aesthetics factor. Some of the CAI kits are works of art and look fantastic under the bonnet - and if it does the job, why shouldn't your preference come down to which looks nicest?
Me, i tend to be a bit tight (need the cash for replacing tyres after 'enthusiastc driving') so i'd probably fit a panel filter to the OEM airbox and replace all the pipework to and from, which you can get to look surprisingly standard...