View Full Version : CC from PACE... was it you?
ibizacupra
12-11-2003, 20:42
Who was loaning their car to PACE for the CC?
How did you get on?
What design was settled on?
Any news?
cheers
bill
Pace have done a 4 core CC for my car they had fitted it but not recorded the full temps when i phoned as it was too wet to take it out on a hard run, but did hear they got 21 degrees on a normal run from jabba when i phoned them to try and get my car booked in with them so they can see the diff paces new CC has over your CC.
it is all running fine. they have taken out the intercooler and put the main core there with a 650*200*50 pre rad in the front bumper. the water pump is a 15ltr/min pump.
have asked them to take pics so i will post them up once he e-mails me them. i'm not too technical when it comes to these things just hand over my car with the money and sit n wait.
one thing Wayne did say was how well the brakes worked (Brembo conv. supplied by someone ;) ) now is that a good sign or bad :confused:
ibizacupra
13-11-2003, 12:55
Originally posted by SPS
Pace have done a 4 core CC for my car they had fitted it but not recorded the full temps when i phoned as it was too wet to take it out on a hard run, but did hear they got 21 degrees on a normal run from jabba when i phoned them to try and get my car booked in with them so they can see the diff paces new CC has over your CC.
it is all running fine. they have taken out the intercooler and put the main core there with a 650*200*50 pre rad in the front bumper. the water pump is a 15ltr/min pump.
have asked them to take pics so i will post them up once he e-mails me them. i'm not too technical when it comes to these things just hand over my car with the money and sit n wait.
one thing Wayne did say was how well the brakes worked (Brembo conv. supplied by someone ;) ) now is that a good sign or bad :confused:
Sounds good...
Good idea to mount a CC in the OE position... ;) LOL
your prerad is quite a different shape to mine.. longer & deeper but shorter.. 50mm deep is much better than mine. (20mm)
650*200*50=65,000,000mm^2 volume
450*300*20=27,000,000mm^2 volume on mine for example.
Location in OE position is better too. Away from hot engine.
I like the idea of this.
Any confirmation on price?
cheers
bill
Yeah, sounds good. As Bill said, any idea on price?
Cheers
Ben
price and waiting list !!! :D
there was a slight change in the design of the pre rad
Its now 470 x 270 x 18, they didnt want to chop up my bumper plus it fits onto the existing brackets on the car.
Price is expected to be around the £700 mark, but you will have to get n touch with pace. Pace will retail the kit, plus i think u will be able to order it through jabbasport. Full details havent been finalised yet though. Pace are waiting to see the results after the conversion before putting it into full production. Will let u know how it gets on, but its looking promising as it seems better already
ibizacupra
16-11-2003, 16:26
Originally posted by SPS
there was a slight change in the design of the pre rad
Its now 470 x 270 x 18, they didnt want to chop up my bumper plus it fits onto the existing brackets on the car.
Price is expected to be around the £700 mark, but you will have to get n touch with pace. Pace will retail the kit, plus i think u will be able to order it through jabbasport. Full details havent been finalised yet though. Pace are waiting to see the results after the conversion before putting it into full production. Will let u know how it gets on, but its looking promising as it seems better already
Any pics of the CC cores in situ?
I am interested to see if they're the same size cores as I run or not.
Smaller pre-rad is not good :( Same size as mine give or take now. Looking at mine today and it could be 40% longer easy.
Althought I do have more room in front of the rads these days :rolleyes: LOL :laff:
Dormouse
16-11-2003, 16:26
Sounds like a nice solution. I'd be very interested in this. Especially if it has the possibility of customer fit.
Nice one.
Dor.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Any pics of the CC cores in situ?
I am interested to see if they're the same size cores as I run or not.
Smaller pre-rad is not good :( Same size as mine give or take now. Looking at mine today and it could be 40% longer easy.
Althought I do have more room in front of the rads these days :rolleyes: LOL :laff:
Are you running a new bumper now then Bill? If not then how have you got more space?
This sounds very promising and at £700 I'm definately interested.
I would probably like to go for the bigger pre-rad though and chop the bumper as necessary (As long as its not too much).
Cheers
Ben
anyone thought of a top mounted one with a bonnet vent?
not sure how big a pre rad you'd need, but perhaps ahead of the washer bottle? prolly sod all room.
Mark
ibizacupra
17-11-2003, 15:07
Originally posted by BenS1
Are you running a new bumper now then Bill? If not then how have you got more space?
Ben
OE bumper still
and its a secret as to how to make more space ;)
:laff:
Originally posted by m0rk
anyone thought of a top mounted one with a bonnet vent?
not sure how big a pre rad you'd need, but perhaps ahead of the washer bottle? prolly sod all room.
Mark
Yes I have thought about it, Scooby STi style, but then people will probably think I'm one of the Novaboy nobs that drive around my way with bonnet vents just for show!
OE bumper still
and its a secret as to how to make more space
I know... you've replaced you 1.8T with a 1.0 engine from a Micra haven't you? :D
Ben
poor air flow mate , plus it is on a hot engine ! why do you think people with scoobys and gtir's go for a fmic ?
Indeed - poor airflow but if you have no space @ the front then it was just an idea.
M
Originally posted by gillm
there is space :)
No disrespect but even the GRS FMIC is very small compared to the ICs you get on most tuned cars. Graham has done a great job with the space available, its just that there isn't much space.
Cheers
Ben
PS. Despite this I have got a GRS FMIC on order.
i asked about getting a larger pre-rad but they said they wanted to see how this one went first.
i do have pics but no on disk i will get wayne to e-mail me them then i will put them straight up.
the pre-rad sits slightly to the right of the car as the aircon is wonky thats another reason they had to cut the lenght down.
get pics as soon as
ibizacupra
18-11-2003, 12:46
Is it this sort of size?
http://badger-5.com/bin/pre-rad-1.jpg
or
http://badger-5.com/bin/pre-rad-2.jpg
regards
bill
Looks like you've got a small one Bill! ;) :D
My theory: Once the water in the CC system heats up the pre-rad effectively becomes an intercooler. It needs to exchange temp from the water to air at the same rate that the CC is exhanging hot charge air with the water in the core, and so its effectively just an intercooler. This is only the case under sustained hard driving though.
This is not the case for normal driving and the occasional pasty moment as the heat capacity of the water acts as a damper... it takes longer to heat up and also longer to cool down.
Make sense? If so then if you give the car a lot of abuse (eg. trackdays) then really you want a pre-rad of a comparable size to an intercooler for the same setup... ie. big.
Cheers
Ben
i think this has been mentioned ages ago
small resiviour large pre rad and large cc
in short move the water round the system as quick as poss to avoid heat soak . this is why some charge coolers are bad ideas on road cars as they just build up heat when sat in traffic , same as your rad for your engine , no air flow when not moving . then takes a few miles for a constant temp to re-gain it's self . also anything over 15 psi will cause too much heat and the cc won't be effective , be proven time and time again . also seen this on my mates cars .
s1 rs turbo
1st off std boost 8 psi i think ? cc worked well
then later when chipped @ 18 psi no good , he went for a air to air i/c . and was up set as the cc cost him loads in relation to the i/c .
not trying to put people off but i have seen these results for my own eyes
also what sort of boost do you think wrc cars run ? answer = alot 25 + psi , ever seen a cc on them ? answer = no
my coz works for the mitsubishi rally team in the states , they neaver use cc , fmic only , less to go wrong / work well
they use 2" pipe work with pukka hose joins (ubber sheets by the way)before the i/c temps are above 500 degrees c and after they are less then 30 . they do how ever use over spray (auqa mist or what ever you want to call it ). he wasround grahams on friday night when we were going up to 2 1/2" pipe work and could see no gain as you are losing the ram air effect . and as he put it what is the point in going to that siza when your turbo outlet is smaller .
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 08:20
Originally posted by gillm
i think this has been mentioned ages ago
small resiviour large pre rad and large cc
in short move the water round the system as quick as poss to avoid heat soak . this is why some charge coolers are bad ideas on road cars as they just build up heat when sat in traffic , same as your rad for your engine , no air flow when not moving . then takes a few miles for a constant temp to re-gain it's self . also anything over 15 psi will cause too much heat and the cc won't be effective , be proven time and time again . also seen this on my mates cars .
s1 rs turbo
1st off std boost 8 psi i think ? cc worked well
then later when chipped @ 18 psi no good , he went for a air to air i/c . and was up set as the cc cost him loads in relation to the i/c .
not trying to put people off but i have seen these results for my own eyes
also what sort of boost do you think wrc cars run ? answer = alot 25 + psi , ever seen a cc on them ? answer = no
my coz works for the mitsubishi rally team in the states , they neaver use cc , fmic only , less to go wrong / work well
they use 2" pipe work with pukka hose joins (ubber sheets by the way)before the i/c temps are above 500 degrees c and after they are less then 30 . they do how ever use over spray (auqa mist or what ever you want to call it ). he wasround grahams on friday night when we were going up to 2 1/2" pipe work and could see no gain as you are losing the ram air effect . and as he put it what is the point in going to that siza when your turbo outlet is smaller .
Hehe this old tpoic..
I don't agree with Grahams reasoning on CC and small tanks.. its simply a resevoir...nothing more.. Water does not queue up to go thru, and if it was (like it has to lets face it, its a header tank so has to) it is irrelevant.
The importants bits of the CC design are prerad size and core. Get the heat exchange going, but then have a big enough pre-rad to shed this heat, otherwise the 'ballast' of heat capacity of the water in the system will rise in temp. Water has 4 times the specific heat capacity of air... which is good........................and bad. Good as it will perform better than an air to air heat exchange size for size. Bad as once it gets hot it will take longer to cool. (pre-rad size again)
Mount the CC core and water bottle in the engine bay and yep! You get engine heatsoak with slow running and when hot engine is switched off... not good.
The comparison of CC on the RST at lower boost then not working on higher boost is just showing the designed limit of the CC had been exceeded, not that 'CC won't work over 1bar boost'
The PACE CC idea seems pretty good, with location in the factory IC position. So long as the cores are big enough and the pre-rad is big enough, it stands a fighting chance of working. Factory pipework is not a limiting factor on IHI conversions (Ibiza).
Bung some ICE into the CC resevior tho, for those special RR days and it makes for some excellent performance..... cheating I know... but what the heck eh? :p
regards
bill
I asked pace about a larger resevoir and they said the larger the better. They said if you were going to move your battery then that would be the perfect size for a larger tank. Wayne also said about putting ice in there for those special moments
Bill, our pre-rads look the same size roughly and slightly to the right
still not got some pics will phone pace up today.
Question - if the core is to fail will water go into the turbo?? if so has anyone heard of this happening???
the only theory i can think of behind having a larger tank is to lower the mean temp of the water, however when sat in your engine bay, this is neither here nor there as you need to pass as much as possible through the cooler (pre-rad) unless you site the tank in the boot, its pointless having more water
:cheers:
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 11:42
Originally posted by SPS
Question - if the core is to fail will water go into the turbo?? if so has anyone heard of this happening???
Yes.. and yes.. :rolleyes:
Golfy one split and fed water to the motor. 2ltrs/200miles and splutter city on boost.
Not a PACE CC I might add.
It is not being refitted to Golfy when I get it back. A large FMIC will replace it in the Golf.
Ibiza is a packaging mightmare in comparison.
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 11:46
Originally posted by SPS
I asked pace about a larger resevoir and they said the larger the better. They said if you were going to move your battery then that would be the perfect size for a larger tank. Wayne also said about putting ice in there for those special moments
On Jabba's application of the CC, the windscreen washer resevoir is used as the CC tank.. duel purpose. 6.6ltrs capacity. No extra tank (weight)
I like this personally. Simplifies things and no extra weight of water up front.
When I relocate my battery to the boot, I will also make a CC resevoir in the back... away from engine bay heat and moving weight backwards.. Ibiza is too nose heavy IMHO for ideal handling. - another issue
ICE works well :D
Stealths RR with the SE boys a couple of weeks back... 18'C induction temps after several runs.. Best FMIC on Golf Iv and Octy were mid to high 30's on the same day. It is cheating but hey... :p
Originally posted by gillm
i think this has been mentioned ages ago
small resiviour large pre rad and large cc
in short move the water round the system as quick as poss to avoid heat soak . this is why some charge coolers are bad ideas on road cars as they just build up heat when sat in traffic , same as your rad for your engine , no air flow when not moving . then takes a few miles for a constant temp to re-gain it's self . also anything over 15 psi will cause too much heat and the cc won't be effective , be proven time and time again . also seen this on my mates cars .
s1 rs turbo
1st off std boost 8 psi i think ? cc worked well
then later when chipped @ 18 psi no good , he went for a air to air i/c . and was up set as the cc cost him loads in relation to the i/c .
not trying to put people off but i have seen these results for my own eyes
also what sort of boost do you think wrc cars run ? answer = alot 25 + psi , ever seen a cc on them ? answer = no
my coz works for the mitsubishi rally team in the states , they neaver use cc , fmic only , less to go wrong / work well
they use 2" pipe work with pukka hose joins (ubber sheets by the way)before the i/c temps are above 500 degrees c and after they are less then 30 . they do how ever use over spray (auqa mist or what ever you want to call it ). he wasround grahams on friday night when we were going up to 2 1/2" pipe work and could see no gain as you are losing the ram air effect . and as he put it what is the point in going to that siza when your turbo outlet is smaller .
Gillm, sounds like an almost exact quote from Graham! :D
Personally I disagree with most of what was said about chargecoolers (Only my opinion, please don't take offense). The fact that the CC was not effective on your mates car when tuned above 1bar boost simply means that you needed more cores and/or a large pre-rad. A CC could handle 25psi if big enough, just like an IC could.
Also the whole idea of having a small reservour just seems totally backwards. The more water you have the longer it will take to heat it all up (Although atmittedly it will also take longer to cool it all back down). To take it to an extreme... imagine you had a 100 litre water tank in the boot that you used for your CC. Do you really think the 100 litre tank would be less effective at cooling than the 0.5 litre Graham recommends?
Why do you want the water to go around the system as quickly as possible? Yes the quicker it goes around the quicker it gets through the pre-rad but equally the quicker it gets reheated by the heat exchange in the cores.
Whats the problem with the warm water sitting in the reservour for a little while before going through the pre-rad? Or even better, put the rad just AFTER the core, so that the water goes from the reservour to the core then through the pre-rad then back to the reservour, a sort of post-rad rather than pre-rad.
Cheers
Ben
max_torque
19-11-2003, 13:27
OH GOD! Not the whole CC verses IC argument AGAIN!
More disinformation than all the politicians in Westminster!:p
Originally posted by max_torque
OH GOD! Not the whole CC verses IC argument AGAIN!
More disinformation than all the politicians in Westminster!:p
:)
Well as you are a well respected fountain of knowledge, why don't you correct our disinformation and give us the full story? ;)
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 14:42
Originally posted by max_torque
OH GOD! Not the whole CC verses IC argument AGAIN!
More disinformation than all the politicians in Westminster!:p
Gis a Clue Paul....
Which is the 'official' position on whats the pros & cons of CC
cheers
bill
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 14:50
Originally posted by BenS1
Gillm, sounds like an almost exact quote from Graham! :D
Personally I disagree with most of what was said about chargecoolers (Only my opinion, please don't take offense). The fact that the CC was not effective on your mates car when tuned above 1bar boost simply means that you needed more cores and/or a large pre-rad. A CC could handle 25psi if big enough, just like an IC could.
Also the whole idea of having a small reservour just seems totally backwards. The more water you have the longer it will take to heat it all up (Although atmittedly it will also take longer to cool it all back down). To take it to an extreme... imagine you had a 100 litre water tank in the boot that you used for your CC. Do you really think the 100 litre tank would be less effective at cooling than the 0.5 litre Graham recommends?
Why do you want the water to go around the system as quickly as possible? Yes the quicker it goes around the quicker it gets through the pre-rad but equally the quicker it gets reheated by the heat exchange in the cores.
Whats the problem with the warm water sitting in the reservour for a little while before going through the pre-rad? Or even better, put the rad just AFTER the core, so that the water goes from the reservour to the core then through the pre-rad then back to the reservour, a sort of post-rad rather than pre-rad.
Cheers
Ben
Interestingly, the CC type approach is used by some engine tuners on chassis and engine dyno's as a means of controlling induction temps across many loads sites and time... Usually running a big arsed 40 gallon drum and a total loss water system out of the tap. Not exactly your daily driver tho... :p
Mine is actually a post rad in flow terms... Seems to be various opinions on which is best... Core size to flow rate to radiator being important.
My pump runs at twice flowrate (approx) when >10psi boost comes on to try and pump harder thru the CC cores when under highest demand.
Lots of opinions on these things tho eh?
Bill
I think most people would agree that an IC would be best if space wasn't an issue, but in our particular case (ie. the very space limited Ibiza) I think the CC would work best.
Its the "CCs don't work over 1bar, I've seen it with my own eyes" arguement that gets me. Yes you may of seen a CC not coping with 1 bar of boost, but I could easily put a small Intercooler on a car and show it working with 0.5bar but not working with 1bar.... this doesn't mean intercoolers don't work, it simply means that you need a bigger/better intercooler.... same for the chargecoolers.
Come on Paul, bless us with your infinite wisedom. ;)
Ben
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Hehe this old tpoic..
I don't agree with Grahams reasoning on CC and small tanks.. its simply a resevoir...nothing more.. Water does not queue up to go thru, and if it was (like it has to lets face it, its a header tank so has to) it is irrelevant.
The importants bits of the CC design are prerad size and core. Get the heat exchange going, but then have a big enough pre-rad to shed this heat, otherwise the 'ballast' of heat capacity of the water in the system will rise in temp. Water has 4 times the specific heat capacity of air... which is good........................and bad. Good as it will perform better than an air to air heat exchange size for size. Bad as once it gets hot it will take longer to cool. (pre-rad size again)
Mount the CC core and water bottle in the engine bay and yep! You get engine heatsoak with slow running and when hot engine is switched off... not good.
The comparison of CC on the RST at lower boost then not working on higher boost is just showing the designed limit of the CC had been exceeded, not that 'CC won't work over 1bar boost'
The PACE CC idea seems pretty good, with location in the factory IC position. So long as the cores are big enough and the pre-rad is big enough, it stands a fighting chance of working. Factory pipework is not a limiting factor on IHI conversions (Ibiza).
Bung some ICE into the CC resevior tho, for those special RR days and it makes for some excellent performance..... cheating I know... but what the heck eh? :p
regards
bill not getting into a argument but why run ice ? bill just try a smaller resiviour for aruments sake . as i have said people sit on here and shout this and that but don't know what they are dealing with . yep size is a issue but theres always room for jello :)a cc with ice will work well on a rr it's bound too but it will run out as you said . to be honest i wish i had neaver bothered trying to help sort out a colder charge temp . much easyier to sit back and let someone else do it .
Originally posted by gillm
not getting into a argument but why run ice ? bill just try a smaller resiviour for aruments sake . as i have said people sit on here and shout this and that but don't know what they are dealing with . yep size is a issue but theres always room for jello :)a cc with ice will work well on a rr it's bound too but it will run out as you said . to be honest i wish i had neaver bothered trying to help sort out a colder charge temp . much easyier to sit back and let someone else do it .
Don't take it personally mate. :cheers:
I can't say that I'm right and you're wrong, or vice versa. If you could explain your arguement then I may understand, but simply saying that you've seen a CC work at 0.5bar and then not work at 1bar doesn't really mean much as you could say exactly the same about a small IC.
Cheers
Ben
try this site for info on cc's
http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Analysis/chargecoolers.html
lots of info on other stuff also
small intercooler thats twice the size as std . and in the right place .as we are seeing now cc devlopment has to change due to more boost (more heat). with i/c there is no need to change size when you up the boost . yep twin pass is not the best but if you can find more space please do so .
also if bill is going to a fmic on the golf ask your self why !
now ibiza is alot diffrent with space etc etc as we all know . but i don't belive cc are the way forward . i say again do you see them on ralley cars NO . now just a guess but they might have spent a bit of time on this issue , and took the other route .
ben if your ibiza is transforming into a track car (mainly) why not ditch the a/c and go for a huge i/c ?
no one has tryed a fmic on ihi but im giving it ago . nothing to lose :)
think we should all agree to disagree on this one :) getting too heated for my liking .
lets all chill with a beer :cheers:
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 17:02
Originally posted by gillm
not getting into a argument but why run ice ? bill just try a smaller resiviour for aruments sake . as i have said people sit on here and shout this and that but don't know what they are dealing with . yep size is a issue but theres always room for jello :)a cc with ice will work well on a rr it's bound too but it will run out as you said . to be honest i wish i had neaver bothered trying to help sort out a colder charge temp . much easyier to sit back and let someone else do it .
Not an arguement martin... don't take it personally mate :)
I don't agree with grahams reasoning thats all... its a flawed arguement. bigger resevoir, smaller resevoir it all pretty irrelevant. Too small a rad, too small a CC core and heat soak is inevitable. You will build a 'delay' for this heatsoak by having a larger ballast storeof water.. thats all. Does'nt make the system right or up to it, just delays the inevitable. As said tho, once hot its a bugger to cool down again... water now being the enemy with its ability to hold onto the heat now its absorbed it.. LOL Win some loose some. :D
Why ICE? Pack ICE into my big resevoir (;) ) and I build a bigger ballast into my system... which when Dyno'ing is pretty handy. For a dyno run, I can bring my induction temps lower than a FMIC, which has to be a good thing for figures and preventing heatsoak,
Once its all melted, and it sure does go quick like at Interpro!!! it will heatsoak as normal.
Not having 100mph winds passing by makes the motors run a lot warmer than usual as we know.
I have used ICE now a a few track days to combat the inevitable heatsoak my CC system gets... It has worked pretty well up to now, with some very hot days at Combe and Cadwell keeping my induction down to mid 30'C level... Track day concumed 2 x Sainsburys bags of ICE, @ £0.99/bag. :)
What I do want is a larger pre-rad, and to install the fan I bought weeks ago to aid some pre-rad airflow. I think the cores work 'OK', but the rad is the weak point in the heat exchange system.
Easiest, simplest solution by far is larger FMIC tho... 100% agree.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 17:07
Originally posted by gillm
also if bill is going to a fmic on the golf ask your self why !
lets all chill with a beer :cheers:
To answer this one... The prototype CC that was on the Golf split so was dead. It also was shite! :p Not a hope of coping with the IHI boost that car runs.
FMIC is the way to go... would never disagree with that.. Somewhat easier to accomodate in a MKIV than an Ibiza tho, and there are commercial options readily available unlike the Ibiza.
Don't get upset Martin.. no worries.. and enjoy your beer mate :)
:cheers:
bill i get mid 20's on my i/c all the time even colder this time of the year seen 9 degrees wow ! and thats using a ko3 that produces shite loads of heat . agreed these temps are not on track but they are on fast private roads . anyway going for a beer so to speak (too early now , so just some milk ) gillm gone to chill and thats not a pun :)
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 18:40
Enjoy your milk mate :)
My CC did 18'C @ Stealth after 4 runs, where other FMIC cars (Octavia with huge FMIC) ran mid 30's during its run. All temps are relative to the day... Twas a coldun@ Stealth and my motor had been chillin :p in the carpark for 5 hours before I got on the rollers.. No ice with me on that day... but a cold day thankfully.
Compare that to the 'ring... and my CC water would have been too hot to bathe in !!! OMG hot! nasty... 38'C ambient and maximum pasty laps..
cheers mate :)
Originally posted by gillm
small intercooler thats twice the size as std . and in the right place .as we are seeing now cc devlopment has to change due to more boost (more heat). with i/c there is no need to change size when you up the boost . yep twin pass is not the best but if you can find more space please do so .
also if bill is going to a fmic on the golf ask your self why !
now ibiza is alot diffrent with space etc etc as we all know . but i don't belive cc are the way forward . i say again do you see them on ralley cars NO . now just a guess but they might have spent a bit of time on this issue , and took the other route .
ben if your ibiza is transforming into a track car (mainly) why not ditch the a/c and go for a huge i/c ?
no one has tryed a fmic on ihi but im giving it ago . nothing to lose :)
think we should all agree to disagree on this one :) getting too heated for my liking .
lets all chill with a beer :cheers:
Martin, first things first... lets not get heated, its just a friendly chat between friends. :)
Secondly, the small IC I was referring to was hyperthetical, I was definately not referring to the GRS FMIC, in fact I was probably thinking of something about 2/3rd the size of the stock Ibia IC... in that such an IC would handle 0.5bar but not 1bar.
Also, I too agree that I'd prefer a big arse FMIC if it was possible. The GRS FMIC is about as big as is possible and whilst not particularly big its certainly a lot bigger than standard (Remember I do have one on order!). Its just that with the given space a CC may work better if it has enough cores and has a big enough pre-rad (Again, will one fit?).
I don't think we have to agree to disagree as I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you... I'm not saying that a CC is better, in fact as I mentioned above, if a big FMIC was an option then I'd go for that for sure. All I was saying is that a CC can be made to work with any power or pressure level providing that its specced high enough.
The GRS FMIC is another subject.
Cheers
Ben
:cheers:
Dormouse
19-11-2003, 19:51
Cripes....
This is getting interesting.
Personally i'd go for a FMIC (on the grounds it's simpler) something about double the size of the std one would be nice and front mounted. not inconcievable.
Quick fact :- from 70 degs C to 30 degs C charge temp air density rises by 13.4%. Effectivley 13.4 percent extra energy possible. What pity an IC engine isn't anywhere near 100% efficient.
Hehe (Stir-Stir) :p
Dor.
wind them up and let them go he he .
lets get back to cc . how about twin cc , just a idea ? thinking a space to fit the other ?
still not had any beer .
anyone on msn ? might be easyier :p
Originally posted by Dormouse
Cripes....
This is getting interesting.
Personally i'd go for a FMIC (on the grounds it's simpler) something about double the size of the std one would be nice and front mounted. not inconcievable.
Quick fact :- from 70 degs C to 30 degs C charge temp air density rises by 13.4%. Effectivley 13.4 percent extra energy possible. What pity an IC engine isn't anywhere near 100% efficient.
Hehe (Stir-Stir) :p
Dor.
The GRS FMIC is nearly double the capacity of the stock one, but thats still MUCH smaller than most 300+bhp tuned cars run. My main concern though is the pressure drop people are experiencing and what appears to be a bodge fix (Adjusting the wastegate). This does not sound like an acceptable solution to me. I need to understand whats going on more really, and so far no-one has been able to explain.
I'm not going to say anymore on the subject (On this thread) as I was trying not to bring the GRS FMIC into this conversation. :)
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by gillm
wind them up and let them go he he .
I know, and I couldn't resist! ;) :D
Ben
just to clear it up with 2 1/2" pipe it has relived some of it i know only have it adjusted 1 .5 turns @ 15 psi so it did help . but a bigger turbo you could demand more boost the required with little hastle . and do it safely
also could'nt resist :)
Originally posted by gillm
just to clear it up with 2 1/2" pipe it has relived some of it i know only have it adjusted 1 .5 turns @ 15 psi so it did help . but a bigger turbo you could demand more boost the required with little hastle . and do it safely
also could'nt resist :)
Here we go. :D
But if I was going to demand more boost from the turbo then I'd actually want that extra boost, not loose it in a mysterious pressure loss! :) Glad to hear the 2.5" pipework has helped.
Trouble is that the IHI flows MUCH mre air than the KO3 and so I wonder if the pipework will become a bigger bottleneck again. Bill, what diameter is the pipework you have on your CC?
Right, lets all try to resist. :D :cheers:
Ben
Dormouse
19-11-2003, 20:21
Originally posted by BenS1
The GRS FMIC is nearly double the capacity of the stock one, but thats still MUCH smaller than most 300+bhp tuned cars run. My main concern though is the pressure drop people are experiencing and what appears to be a bodge fix (Adjusting the wastegate). This does not sound like an acceptable solution to me. I need to understand whats going on more really, and so far no-one has been able to explain.
I'm not going to say anymore on the subject (On this thread) as I was trying not to bring the GRS FMIC into this conversation. :)
OK plan B - same volume I/C as stock. But better core and more frontal area.
Dor.
Originally posted by Dormouse
OK plan B - same volume I/C as stock. But better core and more frontal area.
Dor.
Is the stock core that bad then? I would of thought a company as big as VAG would know how to design a good core?
Cheers
Ben
if they do ? they stuck it in a dumb place :) im happy now as i have beer:cheers:
thing is
I bet the intercooler is fine for stock boost.
they never designed the car to be chipped, nor have a 350bhp conversion..
Some random thoughts as they stuck me reading through this thread.
I've always heard/read/been told that the main factor in choosing a CC over an IC is a lack of space in which to site the CORE(S), not the pre-rad. If you can fit a big pre-rad, then you can probably fit an FMIC as long as you can route the boost pipework to/from it.
There are two cases to consider with a CC - car moving and car not moving. When moving, you want all the water in the pre-rad, shedding heat or in the core(s) cooling the intake charge with a small reservoir to allow for expansion. When not moving, you want a big reservoir which takes ages to heat up (although if you're not moving or in stop-start traffic , who gives a f&%k what the intake temps are?) but once you've reached the capacity of that big reservoir, it's going to take a 'millenium' to shed that built up heat through a relatively small pre-rad.
Heat exchangers are most effective when there is a large delta temperature (the difference between the two mediums) so doesn't it make more sense to run the water through the pre-rad BEFORE it goes to the core (so that it's at its coolest possible) in order to maximize the delta.
If the PACE CC is situated in the OE IC position, are they considering/using/fitting fins on the CORE casing as heat sinks to utilise the airflow in that position?
Ben, if you have a look at the plastic boost pipe near the stock IC, you'll see what I mean about it being sub-optimal. I submit that the drop in boost pressure experienced with the GRS is due to the increased volume of the intake tract and that the pipe diameter is not the most significant factor here. More like, tiny turbo trying to hold pressure (even more so for chipped cars) at much increased volume in rapidly decreasing amount of time (RPM). In short, like inflating a hot air balloon with a foot pump in 20 secs flat.
I'll have some plots from laps of Goodwood tomorrow so we can see how the GRS performs on track.
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 21:26
Originally posted by m0rk
thing is
they never designed the car to be chipped, nor have a 350bhp conversion..
Now thats just plain inconsiderate... :p :D
:lol: :lol2: :laff1:
Originally posted by m0rk
thing is
I bet the intercooler is fine for stock boost.
they never designed the car to be chipped, nor have a 350bhp conversion..
Very true, but I would still of thought they would have a well designed core as the better the core design is the smaller the IC needs to be.
Cheers
Ben
Dormouse
19-11-2003, 21:29
Bar Stewards :P
Nah, I recond for a stage one car a FMIC with a good front area and core, but same core volume would be enough.
300+? I'll leave that to you rich boyz :D
Dor.
Originally posted by Glenn
Some random thoughts as they stuck me reading through this thread.
I've always heard/read/been told that the main factor in choosing a CC over an IC is a lack of space in which to site the CORE(S), not the pre-rad. If you can fit a big pre-rad, then you can probably fit an FMIC as long as you can route the boost pipework to/from it.
Depends on what you consider large. I think the GRS FMIC is medium sized for an IC but if you had a pre-rad that size then it would be considered to be pretty big for a pre-rad.
Heat exchangers are most effective when there is a large delta temperature (the difference between the two mediums) so doesn't it make more sense to run the water through the pre-rad BEFORE it goes to the core (so that it's at its coolest possible) in order to maximize the delta.
Well my idea is built on the same principle but I came to a different conclusion. If you have a post-rad then the water will be at its hottest, and therefor the delta between water temp and airflow on the rad would be at its greatest... thereby meaning you will exchange more heat from the water to the outside world. Never seen anyone else suggest this though so must be flawed somewhere.
Ben, if you have a look at the plastic boost pipe near the stock IC, you'll see what I mean about it being sub-optimal. I submit that the drop in boost pressure experienced with the GRS is due to the increased volume of the intake tract and that the pipe diameter is not the most significant factor here. More like, tiny turbo trying to hold pressure (even more so for chipped cars) at much increased volume in rapidly decreasing amount of time (RPM). In short, like inflating a hot air balloon with a foot pump in 20 secs flat.
I'll have some plots from laps of Goodwood tomorrow so we can see how the GRS performs on track.
Cool. Let us know the results.
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 21:33
Originally posted by Glenn
If the PACE CC is situated in the OE IC position, are they considering/using/fitting fins on the CORE casing as heat sinks to utilise the airflow in that position?
some good thoughts & observations there... :)
my Jabba/Pace CC is plumbed as follows:-
resevoir->CC core->pre-rad-> resevoir
(cooling the returned water back to the store..)
OR
(returning the not so cooled warm water back to the resevoir!)
Hmmmm.
:jog:
Considers swapping some pipes. :)
resevoir->Pre-rad-> CC Core->resevoir
Originally posted by Dormouse
Bar Stewards :P
Nah, I recond for a stage one car a FMIC with a good front area and core, but same core volume would be enough.
300+? I'll leave that to you rich boyz :D
Dor.
Well if I was rich before (Whcih I wasn't) then I certainly wont be afterwards! :(
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 21:35
Originally posted by Dormouse
300+? I'll leave that to you rich boyz :D
Dor.
Penny for the guy! :p
Originally posted by BenS1
Very true, but I would still of thought they would have a well designed core as the better the core design is the smaller the IC needs to be.
Cheers
Ben
Isn't that what they've done?
Stock IC does a very good job of controlling intake temps for its tiny size while running stock boost with minimal pressure drop.
ibizacupra
19-11-2003, 21:37
Originally posted by BenS1
Well if I was rich before (Whcih I wasn't) then I certainly wont be afterwards! :(
Hello Mr VISA Hello Mr Mastercard....
or is that just me? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Glenn
Isn't that what they've done?
Stock IC does a very good job of controlling intake temps for its tiny size while running stock boost with minimal pressure drop.
Well yes thats my point, Dor suggested that the stock IC core may not be very well designed. My arguement was that either it is well designed or if its not then they could of improved the design and as a result they could of shrunk the IC even more! ie. I can't understand why they wouldn't put some effort into the design.
Hello Mr VISA Hello Mr Mastercard....
or is that just me?
Yep, me too. Been trying to save up some of it though, but it keeps burning a hole in my pocket! Buying ARBs, FMICs, Quaifes, Clutches/Flywheel etc!
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by ibizacupra
some good thoughts & observations there... :)
my Jabba/Pace CC is plumbed as follows:-
resevoir->CC core->pre-rad-> resevoir
(cooling the returned water back to the store..)
OR
(returning the not so cooled warm water back to the resevoir!)
Hmmmm.
:jog:
Considers swapping some pipes. :)
resevoir->Pre-rad-> CC Core->resevoir
But surely your current arrangement (A post-rad, not pre-rad.) is best because the higher temp delta between the hot water and the air on the pre-rad will be at its greatest thereby exchanging heat at the greatest rate?
For example:
resevoir(Water 20C)->CC core(Water now 40C)->pre-rad(Water 40C, airflow 15C, Temp delta 25C)-> resevoir
If you do it the other way around then the temp delta will be lower and so less heat will be exchanged. Make sense?
Ben
then isn't the water entering the reservoir 25C?
then it'll only be a matter of time til it's all at 25C, by which time the water entering will be 30C & round & round.
I'm still struggling to work it out in my head which will be cooler @ the point that counts.
maplin temp sensors needed :)
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Hello Mr VISA Hello Mr Mastercard....
or is that just me? :rolleyes: nope mine is better "hello becky . you know that money we have been saving for a house , well i need a bit of it ? answer why ? my reply , im bored and need more power :)" very understanding misses
Originally posted by BenS1
Depends on what you consider large. I think the GRS FMIC is medium sized for an IC but if you had a pre-rad that size then it would be considered to be pretty big for a pre-rad.
I'm not listing a lot of my assumptions as I've typed enough already! :D The pre-requisite is : Do you have enough space to site a sufficient-sized core to do the job required? Remember that the FMIC IS the core, the pre-rad could be feeding a CC core the size of a Rubiks cube - 1/4 the size of equivalent IC core?.
Originally posted by BenS1
Well my idea is built on the same principle but I came to a different conclusion. If you have a post-rad then the water will be at its hottest, and therefor the delta between water temp and airflow on the rad would be at its greatest... thereby meaning you will exchange more heat from the water to the outside world. Never seen anyone else suggest this though so must be flawed somewhere.
While in steady state operation, the CC system will reach a natural balance between the two medium temps - they'll converge.
However, I think along the lines of :
Q. What is the purpose of the CC system?
A. To reduce the air intake temperature - NOT the CC water temp (although they are intertwined).
In stop-start or variable speed conditions, you'd prefer an increase in speed to give a corresponding (instant) decrease in air intake temp rather than 'buffering' it via the reservoir?
Originally posted by m0rk
then isn't the water entering the reservoir 25C?
then it'll only be a matter of time til it's all at 25C, by which time the water entering will be 30C & round & round.
I'm still struggling to work it out in my head which will be cooler @ the point that counts.
maplin temp sensors needed :)
No, the 25C was the delta, not the temp that it would re-enter the reservour.
I'm not listing a lot of my assumptions as I've typed enough already! The pre-requisite is : Do you have enough space to site a sufficient-sized core to do the job required? Remember that the FMIC IS the core, the pre-rad could be feeding a CC core the size of a Rubiks cube - 1/4 the size of equivalent IC core?.
Well Bills running 2 CC cores (The Pace CC cores are a set size), Jabba are making a 4 core system, but moving a few bit around I reckon i could actually find space for 10 cores!!!! Not that I would actually do that (4 in the stock IC location, 2 on top of the engine where Bill has his, and 4 (2x2) in the battery location if I relocation the battery to the boot). The cores do not have to be physically joined. Ok the pipework and correcsponing lag, and the mismatched sized pre-rad would make this a stupid idea.
While in steady state operation, the CC system will reach a natural balance between the two medium temps - they'll converge.
However, I think along the lines of :
Q. What is the purpose of the CC system?
A. To reduce the air intake temperature - NOT the CC water temp (although they are intertwined).
In stop-start or variable speed conditions, you'd prefer an increase in speed to give a corresponding (instant) decrease in air intake temp rather than 'buffering' it via the reservoir?
I think you're right... for short bursts your idea is better, but I think mine will shed more heat and therefore keep the charge temp cooler under sustained continuous load (Towing a caravan up Mt Everest!).
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
20-11-2003, 09:31
Its not more cores you want Ben..... its more pre-rad to shed this heat. The cores seem to be working fine, its the heat shedding from the pre-rad system which is marginal....
Dormouse
20-11-2003, 11:14
I have hired Micheal Fish to predict Sunny Spells in my engine bay. Knowing that he couldn't predict a chunder at a boiled egg eating competition, I recon it's gonna be pretty chilly under my bonnet :D
Dor.
Originally posted by Dormouse
I have hired Micheal Fish to predict Sunny Spells in my engine bay. Knowing that he couldn't predict a chunder at a boiled egg eating competition, I recon it's gonna be pretty chilly under my bonnet :D
Dor.
Thanks for that nugget of wisedom there Dor. ;)
ibizacupra
20-11-2003, 11:40
:laff:
"There will be no Hurricane.... absolutely not... nope... aint going to happen..."
'looks outside'.................
"erm.... run for cover, strap everything down, hide indoors.... there's a Hurricane coming!"
and the biggest joke of all? He remained head weather man for years aftewards! :rolleyes:
Dormouse
20-11-2003, 12:36
Originally posted by BenS1
Thanks for that nugget of wisedom there Dor. ;)
I normally charge for nugget sized peieces of info like that. Think yerself lucky! :p
Dor.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Hehe this old tpoic..
The PACE CC idea seems pretty good, bill
whose idea !!! ;)
Originally posted by Saul
the only theory i can think of behind having a larger tank is to lower the mean temp of the water, however when sat in your engine bay, this is neither here nor there as you need to pass as much as possible through the cooler (pre-rad) unless you site the tank in the boot, its pointless having more water
:cheers:
not a scientist or owt .. but shovin too much water through the pre rad wont get the desired cooling effect ... leading to higher 'washer bottle' temps ... sustasined heat soak . Its a process engineers nightmare .. getting optimum cooling .. pre rad correct liquid flow for size of pre rad .. blahdy blah blah
As promised, here is my datalog from today at Goodwood.
Car is standard engine (not chipped) with 2.5" Milltek Cat-back and GRS FMIC running Optimax with Millers Octane Boost.
The entire log covers short idle in the pit lane, 4 or 5 laps and then idling again in the car park. I've added a couple of quick graphs - it's a zipped Excel file and a column for converting KPH to MPH but otherwise, the data is as it came out of the car.
Ambient temp & pressure were 13 Degs C and 1000mbar.
Brief notes : The GRS appears to perform well under track conditions of sustained hard acceleration/high revs with standard boost levels. As soon as I stopped, I opened the bonnet and the inlet manifold was stone cold as was the outlet pipe from the FMIC. Previously, with the stock IC, I've found the manifold to be almost too hot to touch. Car felt and performed strongly, all the way round to 6000+RPM.
Originally posted by custard cruiser
not a scientist or owt .. but shovin too much water through the pre rad wont get the desired cooling effect ... leading to higher 'washer bottle' temps ... sustasined heat soak . Its a process engineers nightmare .. getting optimum cooling .. pre rad correct liquid flow for size of pre rad .. blahdy blah blah
i wasnt clear enough in my explanation, you need to get as much through in "one pass" of the radiator, radiate maximum heat in the least time.
:cheers:
Originally posted by custard cruiser
whose idea !!! ;)
Mine!!!
When i was at Jabbas for the test drive we spoke about CCs and how to fit 4 cores in. I suggested the stock IC location and Mike liked the idea. Seems like several of us came up with the same idea independently. :D
Ben
Bagsy IPR on the 'heat sink fins' on the Core casing idea if located in OE IC position! :D
Originally posted by Glenn
As promised, here is my datalog from today at Goodwood.
Car is standard engine (not chipped) with 2.5" Milltek Cat-back and GRS FMIC running Optimax with Millers Octane Boost.
The entire log covers short idle in the pit lane, 4 or 5 laps and then idling again in the car park. I've added a couple of quick graphs - it's a zipped Excel file and a column for converting KPH to MPH but otherwise, the data is as it came out of the car.
Ambient temp & pressure were 13 Degs C and 1000mbar.
Brief notes : The GRS appears to perform well under track conditions of sustained hard acceleration/high revs with standard boost levels. As soon as I stopped, I opened the bonnet and the inlet manifold was stone cold as was the outlet pipe from the FMIC. Previously, with the stock IC, I've found the manifold to be almost too hot to touch. Car felt and performed strongly, all the way round to 6000+RPM.
Thanks for the data Glenn.
On first inspection it looked very good, however I notice that you are using Block 004 reading 4 in your column K on the spreadsheet and using this on your graph as the charge temp. Are you sure that this really is charge temp? According to my list of blocks this value is actually the temperature of the air at the intake, ie. before the turbo and so the turbo and IC have nothing to do with this reading. My list of blocks could be wrong, but that was my interpretation.
Can anyone else confirm?
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
20-11-2003, 20:43
Originally posted by custard cruiser
whose idea !!! ;)
I suggested this to Mike when I had mine done months ago mate... then Pace come up with the same idea... LOL - Go figure.
ibizacupra
20-11-2003, 20:49
Originally posted by Glenn
As promised, here is my datalog from today at Goodwood.
Car is standard engine (not chipped) with 2.5" Milltek Cat-back and GRS FMIC running Optimax with Millers Octane Boost.
The entire log covers short idle in the pit lane, 4 or 5 laps and then idling again in the car park. I've added a couple of quick graphs - it's a zipped Excel file and a column for converting KPH to MPH but otherwise, the data is as it came out of the car.
Ambient temp & pressure were 13 Degs C and 1000mbar.
Brief notes : The GRS appears to perform well under track conditions of sustained hard acceleration/high revs with standard boost levels. As soon as I stopped, I opened the bonnet and the inlet manifold was stone cold as was the outlet pipe from the FMIC. Previously, with the stock IC, I've found the manifold to be almost too hot to touch. Car felt and performed strongly, all the way round to 6000+RPM.
I'd be happy with those results... :D Nice one.
mid 20's avg temps....
Std car on std boost tho yea?
Chipped K03 runs a lot lot hotter...
Did you enjoy Goodwood?
ibizacupra
20-11-2003, 20:51
Originally posted by BenS1
Thanks for the data Glenn.
On first inspection it looked very good, however I notice that you are using Block 004 reading 4 in your column K on the spreadsheet and using this on your graph as the charge temp. Are you sure that this really is charge temp? According to my list of blocks this value is actually the temperature of the air at the intake, ie. before the turbo and so the turbo and IC have nothing to do with this reading. My list of blocks could be wrong, but that was my interpretation.
Can anyone else confirm?
Cheers
Ben
I can't remember what block 004 does now... I use 115,118,120
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I'd be happy with those results... :D Nice one.
mid 20's avg temps....
Std car on std boost tho yea?
Chipped K03 runs a lot lot hotter...
Did you enjoy Goodwood?
Bill, please can you confirm of deny that Glenn was monitoring the right blocks. According to the info i have from the VAGCOM site block 4 reading 4 is actually the intake temp, not the charge temp!!!
If this is the case then the results are meaningless. :(
i hope I'm wrong.
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I can't remember what block 004 does now... I use 115,118,120
See here:
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/001-009.html
Block 4 is described as:
RPM
Voltage
Cooling temperature
Intake air temperature
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
Thanks for the data Glenn.
On first inspection it looked very good, however I notice that you are using Block 004 reading 4 in your column K on the spreadsheet and using this on your graph as the charge temp. Are you sure that this really is charge temp? According to my list of blocks this value is actually the temperature of the air at the intake, ie. before the turbo and so the turbo and IC have nothing to do with this reading. My list of blocks could be wrong, but that was my interpretation.
Can anyone else confirm?
Cheers
Ben
When I originally got VAG-COM, I cycled through all the blocks that were listed as showing intake or air temp and they all displayed the same value. It makes sense that the Intake Temp is the temp of the air actually going into the throttle body as the ECU cannot act upon or influence the air temp in the airbox or outside world.
Originally posted by Glenn
When I originally got VAG-COM, I cycled through all the blocks that were listed as showing intake or air temp and they all displayed the same value. It makes sense that the Intake Temp is the temp of the air actually going into the throttle body as the ECU cannot act upon or influence the air temp in the airbox or outside world.
Yeah you could be right. i thought there was a block showing Intake Air Temp, and another showing Charge Temp, but i can't see that listed anywhere.
I have another list on my work laptop which lists exactly what some of the blocks are... hopefully 104 is listed.
If you are right, then the IC was doing a pretty good job overall. :) Hope it works just as well on an IHI'd car!
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I'd be happy with those results... :D Nice one.
mid 20's avg temps....
Std car on std boost tho yea?
Chipped K03 runs a lot lot hotter...
Did you enjoy Goodwood?
Oh yes, third visit, second with the Ibiza. Got some tuition this time though and I reckon I must've improved my lap time by at least 5 secs through the back section from Madgewick to Lavant.
The Brembos proved to be awesome on track (first time I've been out with them), had to come off and re-apply at some points as they were slowing me too quickly! Think I've warped the discs though as I've had a slight judder under braking since I've had them fitted - put it down to the slightly imperfect wheel balance due to even thin weights not clearing the calipers with my 16"s - but under heavy braking the judder was excessive, car felt like it was on BIG rumble strips (it wasn't the ABS - definitely judder). Also, on the odd occasion the ABS did cut in, that squirmy back end that you complain about manifested itself - not good, saps confidence when leaving the braking late.
Gained a lot more confidence in the chassis/handling of the Ibiza -it's much better with 16"x7" and 205/45/16 - still nervous in its feel but as long as you keep your foot in, it goes roughly where you want it. I can see where ARBs will benefit it when trying to get on the power on the exit to slow speed corners (i.e. tyre chicane on start/finish straight) as it currently understeers for England there.
as for temps i would say it's about right . o/s temp 13 that would make filter temps of around 15 . tested it ages ago . mid 20's would be charge temps , this is a std car and i get that or near on my chipped car .
ibizacupra
21-11-2003, 07:17
Originally posted by Glenn
Oh yes, third visit, second with the Ibiza. Got some tuition this time though and I reckon I must've improved my lap time by at least 5 secs through the back section from Madgewick to Lavant.
The Brembos proved to be awesome on track (first time I've been out with them), had to come off and re-apply at some points as they were slowing me too quickly! Think I've warped the discs though as I've had a slight judder under braking since I've had them fitted - put it down to the slightly imperfect wheel balance due to even thin weights not clearing the calipers with my 16"s - but under heavy braking the judder was excessive, car felt like it was on BIG rumble strips (it wasn't the ABS - definitely judder). Also, on the odd occasion the ABS did cut in, that squirmy back end that you complain about manifested itself - not good, saps confidence when leaving the braking late.
Gained a lot more confidence in the chassis/handling of the Ibiza -it's much better with 16"x7" and 205/45/16 - still nervous in its feel but as long as you keep your foot in, it goes roughly where you want it. I can see where ARBs will benefit it when trying to get on the power on the exit to slow speed corners (i.e. tyre chicane on start/finish straight) as it currently understeers for England there.
A nice rear ARB will help sort that understeer out. :)
You may find the disks true themselves over some road miles... Mine occasionally did
Bill
Dormouse
21-11-2003, 15:29
Originally posted by ibizacupra
A nice rear ARB will help sort that understeer out. :)
:yes: like rails almost with the stiffest setting, although stiffest setting is a bit twitchy. I pray for dry weather for a proper test!
Dor.
Originally posted by Saul
i wasnt clear enough in my explanation, you need to get as much through in "one pass" of the radiator, radiate maximum heat in the least time.
:cheers:
what i was tring to get at was .. if the flow through the pre rad is too quick ur not going to have heat exchange happening . so over a period of time the temps will rise.on the other hand .. not fast enough and u'll probably boil the water as it passes through the exchanger .its a nightmare sizing one of these correctly as there are 2 many what ifs. ambient temp ..speed .. driving style etc etc .. the only way to deal with it is to size it in overkill mode .. and everone here knows thats a big problem... or if you wanna go overboard.. purchase several hundred Peltier devices wire them up and stick em all over the washer bottle and the pre rad then BINGO !!! minus temps !! ;) :D .. may have to find another alternator and battery to power them but hey!!! temp prob solved
Originally posted by custard cruiser
what i was tring to get at was .. if the flow through the pre rad is too quick ur not going to have heat exchange happening . so over a period of time the temps will rise.on the other hand .. not fast enough and u'll probably boil the water as it passes through the exchanger .its a nightmare sizing one of these correctly as there are 2 many what ifs. ambient temp ..speed .. driving style etc etc .. the only way to deal with it is to size it in overkill mode .. and everone here knows thats a big problem... or if you wanna go overboard.. purchase several hundred Peltier devices wire them up and stick em all over the washer bottle and the pre rad then BINGO !!! minus temps !! ;) :D .. may have to find another alternator and battery to power them but hey!!! temp prob solved
lol, there are indeed many variables, i have access to a program that sizes heat exchangers against temps and flow rates, however these rely on a fixed temperature going in, otherwise it all goes to pot (as we found out when a certain pharmaceutical company forgot to tell us they added a 5000litre water storage tank to their system and complained when they were getting hot water)
May be worth adding a insulating chemical, such as glycol, to try and help the water retain its colder temp.
:cheers:
Originally posted by Saul
(as we found out when a certain pharmaceutical company forgot to tell us they added a 5000litre water storage tank to their system and complained when they were getting hot water)
:eek: holy smokes .. i hope it wasnt the anylitical pharmaceutical company i work for !!!!! :eek: :redface: .. well im not a process engineer so not me!!
Originally posted by custard cruiser
:eek: holy smokes .. i hope it wasnt the anylitical pharmaceutical company i work for !!!!! :eek: :redface: .. well im not a process engineer so not me!!
gl__o sm_______e ;)
Originally posted by Saul
gl__o sm_______e ;)
:) Thought so. They have one of their bases near me in Crawley... dunnoif its their HQ though.
May be worth adding a insulating chemical, such as glycol, to try and help the water retain its colder temp.
Surely that will just keep the water cooler because its not absorbing the heat from the intake charge as efficiently, and so its not really doing its job.
Originally posted by BenS1
:) Thought so. They have one of their bases near me in Crawley... dunnoif its their HQ though.
Surely that will just keep the water cooler because its not absorbing the heat from the intake charge as efficiently, and so its not really doing its job.
good point, didnt think of that :hammer:
i'm currently stuck in serbia at the moment :( commissioning some purified water plant :D . i'm due back mid december .. whats the story with pace??? .. i need to get this CC fitted ASAP!! as my mota is sick and as now my company has gone down the toobes i have lost my van ...so i'm gonna be breaking out the weekend mota permanantly!!
Saul u may have already heard this .. Ph_____ec P___ip
Originally posted by custard cruiser
i'm currently stuck in serbia at the moment :( commissioning some purified water plant :D . i'm due back mid december .. whats the story with pace??? .. i need to get this CC fitted ASAP!! as my mota is sick and as now my company has gone down the toobes i have lost my van ...so i'm gonna be breaking out the weekend mota permanantly!!
Saul u may have already heard this .. Ph_____ec P___ip
I phoned Jabba and they advised getting the CC fitted at the same time as the rest of the kit, otherwise you effectively have to fit it twice (As they will have to remove and refit it when you get the IHI done, and they will charge you for it).
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
I phoned Jabba and they advised getting the CC fitted at the same time as the rest of the kit, otherwise you effectively have to fit it twice (As they will have to remove and refit it when you get the IHI done, and they will charge you for it).
Cheers
Ben
they way i see it .. have it done by pace .. go to J-S and have ihi fitted the cost of them removing and refitting of the CC will still be cheaper than buyin one off them in the first place !!!! worth a thought !!.. car is really sick needs work ASAP.. can pace fit quickly ?? any dates ?? bit out of it here in the eastern bloc!!
Originally posted by custard cruiser
Saul u may have already heard this .. Ph_____ec P___ip
the only one i can think of is Procip, but i think they went bust a while ago
?
Originally posted by Saul
the only one i can think of is Procip, but i think they went bust a while ago
?
yeh thats the one.. Procip was bought out by ..ze germans.it got a small name change but alas it suffered the same fate.. folded last month ..boo hoo
who you working for then CC? Whats yer job? :)
Originally posted by BenS1
I phoned Jabba and they advised getting the CC fitted at the same time as the rest of the kit, otherwise you effectively have to fit it twice (As they will have to remove and refit it when you get the IHI done, and they will charge you for it).
Cheers
Ben why would it have to come off ?
Originally posted by gillm
why would it have to come off ?
Dunno. Thats what they told me. I guess as they are replacing the manifold and loads of pipes the CC would be in the way.
they way i see it .. have it done by pace .. go to J-S and have ihi fitted the cost of them removing and refitting of the CC will still be cheaper than buyin one off them in the first place !!!! worth a thought !!.. car is really sick needs work ASAP.. can pace fit quickly ?? any dates ?? bit out of it here in the eastern bloc!!
Actually, I've got some bad news for you. Pace don't fit chargecoolers, they just sell the kits and you have to get them fitted elsewhere. :( Obviously they do fit them when they are developing a new kit (eg. for Jabba) and they need to check the fitments etc before they make any more of them.
They did say that they are planning on opening a new fitting bay very soon.... but not sure how soon.
Cheers
Ben
if it is a side mount (std intercooler location)then why would you have to remove it ? or the pre rad ? maybe disconect the water hoses for ease of fittment , but still can't see why ?
I see your point, and I'm not disagreeing. They also said that they wuld be able to do a good price as they will buy in bulk.... but then if the Jabba 2 core CC was £1200 compared to £500 direct from Pace and the 4 core direct from Pace is £650-£700 then I can't see Jabba selling it for LESS than they 2 core one!
Speculation though, I'm just gonna have to wait until they release the prices, and if they are more than say £50-£100 more than Pace then I'll get mine from Pace!
Cheers
Ben
ben i woul'd not have thought it would be much more mate :) cores get expencive when you go longer , (have to keep them straight ) more short cores should not be too much more .
Originally posted by Saul
who you working for then CC? Whats yer job? :)
until last month i was working for pharmatec procip as a commissioning/software/validation engineer.. got contracted to finish this plant in serbia as it was only weeks away from completion. So now i gotta get myself a new job when i get back :( :mad: ... but before the job i need my car sorted .. i know i know ..people keep tellin me to get my priorities right .. and right now i beleive i have :D :p
Originally posted by gillm
ben i woul'd not have thought it would be much more mate :) cores get expencive when you go longer , (have to keep them straight ) more short cores should not be too much more .
Short cores? I'm not sure what you mean. The cores on a Pace chargecooler are a fixed size but are modular, so you can add several of them together.
Remember the Cores in this context are the things that exchange heat from the charge air to the water... its not the pre-rad.
Cheers
Ben
ben the length ot the core . don't get any simple them that mate take my i/c 10 cores 38mm deep 500mm long i/e the longer the more it costs
But you can spec the size of the Pace I/C cores whereas the CC cores are a fixed size. You can however spec the size of the pre-rad in the same way you spec an I/C core.
The CC cores are 135mm tall, 155mm wide and 80mm long. So a 2 core system is 135mm x 155mm x 160mm as you put 2 cores together, and so a 4 core is 135mm x 155mm x 360mm.
You don't spec CC cores in the same way you spec an IC core. But you do spec a CC pre-rad size in the same way you spec an IC core size.
Cheers
Ben
think you are confusing your self ? im talking about cost mate . a bigger cc , not the amount of cores . the length . the longer the more money it will cost .
ibizacupra
27-11-2003, 11:13
Originally posted by BenS1
But you can spec the size of the Pace I/C cores whereas the CC cores are a fixed size. You can however spec the size of the pre-rad in the same way you spec an I/C core.
The CC cores are 135mm tall, 155mm wide and 80mm long. So a 2 core system is 135mm x 155mm x 160mm as you put 2 cores together, and so a 4 core is 135mm x 155mm x 360mm.
You don't spec CC cores in the same way you spec an IC core. But you do spec a CC pre-rad size in the same way you spec an IC core size.
Cheers
Ben
:p
80mm long cores.. x2 of em is 160mm long, and 4 of em is 320mm long... (where does 360 come into it?)
More cores, more money, so longer costs more... more cores then larger pre-rad also so its a double whammy I guess.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
:p
80mm long cores.. x2 of em is 160mm long, and 4 of em is 320mm long... (where does 360 come into it?)
More cores, more money, so longer costs more... more cores then larger pre-rad also so its a double whammy I guess.
Ok ok I only done A-level maths, the multiplying by 4 was on the degree sylabus! ;) :redface:
More cores do not cost much more though.
Single core costs £456.50, two cores cost £517.00, 3 cores costs £577.50 and 4 cores cost £638.00. (Although they are complete system prices, not just for the cores).
Also increasing the size of the pre-rad looks pretty cheap to.
When I asked for the price of the 4 core system but with the supplied pre-rad replaced with one the size of the GRS FMIC they quoted me something like an extra £30.
So thats £638 + £30 = £668 (A-level maths! ;)) for a complete 4 core system, with large pre-rad. The system includes everything you need apparently, inlcuding pump, controller, pre-rad and cores obviously, and the Core endtanks made to your own custom requirements.
If Jabba offer the same kit for less than £800 then I'll go through them, but much more than that and I may go direct to Pace.
Cheers
Ben
a level maths is very nice . but don't help if you compltely miss the point !
Dormouse
27-11-2003, 17:11
My mates dad's a plumber. Do you recon I could get a nice double layer living room radiator, take out the back seats and plumb it into the back? course id' need a bit of airflow, but Morks got a jig saw and I recon i could rig up a couple of cheap naca ducts from ice cream tubs. Bargain :p :D
Dor.
ibizacupra
27-11-2003, 17:36
Originally posted by BenS1
Ok ok I only done A-level maths, the multiplying by 4 was on the degree sylabus! ;) :redface:
More cores do not cost much more though.
Single core costs £456.50, two cores cost £517.00, 3 cores costs £577.50 and 4 cores cost £638.00. (Although they are complete system prices, not just for the cores).
Also increasing the size of the pre-rad looks pretty cheap to.
When I asked for the price of the 4 core system but with the supplied pre-rad replaced with one the size of the GRS FMIC they quoted me something like an extra £30.
So thats £638 + £30 = £668 (A-level maths! ;)) for a complete 4 core system, with large pre-rad. The system includes everything you need apparently, inlcuding pump, controller, pre-rad and cores obviously, and the Core endtanks made to your own custom requirements.
If Jabba offer the same kit for less than £800 then I'll go through them, but much more than that and I may go direct to Pace.
Cheers
Ben
Sorry Ben.... could'nt resist mate :p
My £1200 Jabba bill looks somewhat steep in comparison - :( :devil:
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Sorry Ben.... could'nt resist mate :p
My £1200 Jabba bill looks somewhat steep in comparison - :( :devil:
Bill, would you consider going upto the new 4 core system if it produces better results, or would you stay with your 2 core? I'll give you £200 for it (Or trade in an IC!) ;) :p :D
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by gillm
a level maths is very nice . but don't help if you compltely miss the point !
Appologies Gillm, I think I had a brain fart.
Cheers
Ben
:cheers:
ibizacupra
27-11-2003, 21:42
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill, would you consider going upto the new 4 core system if it produces better results, or would you stay with your 2 core? I'll give you £200 for it (Or trade in an IC!) ;) :p :D
Cheers
Ben
My cores seem to work adequately... its the pre-rad which needs some help.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
My cores seem to work adequately... its the pre-rad which needs some help.
I know someone that is selling a FMIC... you could try using that as a pre-rad. ;) :D
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
28-11-2003, 07:09
Originally posted by BenS1
I know someone that is selling a FMIC... you could try using that as a pre-rad. ;) :D
Cheers
Ben
:lol: me thinks the hoses might be a bit oversized... :D
Originally posted by ibizacupra
:lol: me thinks the hoses might be a bit oversized... :D
Could use a reducer. ;)
Ben
ibizacupra
28-11-2003, 12:58
Originally posted by BenS1
Could use a reducer. ;)
Ben
hehe or a gurt big electric water pump..
lol . take a look at the cross section of a rad and then look at a i/c . massive in comaprison . not sure on the effect ?
whats the update then peeps .. when i get back can i place my order ?? cost aint really object here .. gettin car back up n runnin is !!!
Originally posted by custard cruiser
whats the update then peeps .. when i get back can i place my order ?? cost aint really object here .. gettin car back up n runnin is !!!
YOu can get a CC from Pace whenever... even 2 years ago. They make custom CC's for your car, so the Jabba stuff is irrelivant.
However, if you want to end up with exactly the same kit as Jabba will be using then you will need to go via Jabba and so you will get it at the same time as the rest of the IHI conversion.
The choice is yours.
Tell ya wot, if money is no object, then you could buy me a Pace CC system and I'll try it out for ya whilst you're away. If its any good then you could buy yourself one when you get back! ;) :D
Ben
got a phone no and a contact ? need to get one ordered asap .. mota is off to autotecknik ASAP for quaife, clutch and any luck fitment of a CC
Originally posted by custard cruiser
got a phone no and a contact ? need to get one ordered asap .. mota is off to autotecknik ASAP for quaife, clutch and any luck fitment of a CC
Their website is: http://www.paceproducts.co.uk
And their phone number is: +44 (0)1440 760960
Have you ordered the Quaife? If so then how long have you been told the wait will be? I ordered mine about a week after I met you at AutoTechniks... which must of been around June time, and its finally booked in for 15th December! 6 months instead of the 6 weeks I was orignally told!
Still, I'm not complaining too much as I don't need it until I get the IHI, so as long as its fitted before the IHI I'll be happy. Also, I know Alan, Vanessa and co will do a proper job... they are the only garage I've ever been to and been happy with their work.
Cheers
Ben