K04 turbo max boost [Archive] - SEAT Cupra.net

max_torque

13-12-2003, 20:04

That looks like a useful little car!:D

few things interest me, 1) how does it handle with the extra weight at the back, and crucially the extra weight up high (turbo / manifolding, IC etc) and 2) does the original cooling system cope?

a std 120bhp elise is only gonna reject something like 40kw to coolant, a 300bhp turbo will be more like 120 kw! and the 1.8T does have some issues with cylinder head metal temps at high boost as there's not much space for water after you've stuck 5 valves and an internal EGR port into the head casting!:p

I suspect that you'd be better off getting a really progressive & drivable 260bhp rather than going big turbo and chasing the headline 300bhp figure? (although as you are probably aware those crazy germans have already stuck 2.7 turbo Audi V6 into elises, (380+bhp) but i suspect that makes it into a point and squirt device, which is a bit silly considering an elise is meant to be a roundy roundy kinda car!)

techie

13-12-2003, 21:52

I shouldnt imagine that the Audi 1.8T weighs much more than the Vauxhall 2.0 Turbo that is used in the VX Turbo which has the same chassis.

We run them up to 270 bhp with the charge cooler fitted quite happily and they handle just sweet.

Nice project mate, very impressed. If you need a rolling road to test it on with VAG experience drop us an email.

Ibiza sport man

13-12-2003, 21:54

You do notice the extra weight, but not that much. The engine is 40mm lower and 50 mm further forward than the Rover K engine. The Elise cooling system is massively oversized as standard, overheating has never been a problem, even on that day when we had 39 deg C.

With the ECU I have I can control how the boost ramps up so it can be as gentle as I like on the throttle response.

Ok so it's lost the instant response of the 220 BHP highly tuned K series I had in before, but with all that torque I don't mind 0.25 sec of turbo lag !!

Bernard

Tazkenny

13-12-2003, 23:39

Sounds like a cracking package. Nice work. Can you explain what is going on with the last 2 cylinders in your last picture please. Looks like you have only 2 coil packs fitted and you have some other arrangement than my 1.8T has.
Cheers

Ibiza sport man

14-12-2003, 09:51

Hi Tazkenny

I wondered if anybody would spot that. Due to the unreliability of the VAG coil packs I decided to use twin coils and wasted spark ignition. One of the coils sparks on the firing stroke and the other lead connects to the cylinder on the exhaust stroke and sparks that also - to no effect.

Bernard

techie

14-12-2003, 10:06

Good idea on the wasted spark system :jog:

Mind you that engine looks like an older Audi A4/A6 1.8T, perhaps the AEB one. They have the bolt in coilpacks which never really gave any grief.

But cracking job. I've recently done alot of work on the VX220's stripping the rear clam off to access the engine etc and its all good fun.

There is a chap on our industrial estate in Bicester who specialises in Lotus cars, mainly the Elise and Exige who would faint if he saw this car..lol.

Ibiza sport man

14-12-2003, 11:38

Hi Techie

Its an AWT engine, about 2001. It had the plug in coils :-(

Thanks for the compliments, I was pleased with the outcome. You guy's at AMD did Thorney's car didn't you ? Didn't do so well on the rollers up against mine.

Who's the guy in Bicester then ?

Bernard

techie

14-12-2003, 11:49

Yeah we did Throney's VX (and a few others now). Jon's been having alot of problems with air mass meters (looks like VAG aint the only ones) seems the turbo's dont like Viper induction kits as they let to much water mist in through the side pods which knackers the hot wire sensor. We've put it back on the standard airbox for now and it seems alot better. We could get more power out of the 2.0 Turbo but the gearbox is a big weak point and breaks much over what we are running but its still bloody quick (as im sure yours is)

Plus I just finsihed a n/a 2.2 with a lighened and balanced flywheel (-3.0KGS) and a few other tricky bits which goes really well.

Quite enjoy playing with them, i'll get the details of the chap down the road from us, really nice bloke and loves to chat about the Lotus's

Cheers

Ross

max_torque

14-12-2003, 14:08

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Hi Tazkenny

One of the coils sparks on the firing stroke and the other lead connects to the cylinder on the exhaust stroke and sparks that also - to no effect.

Bernard

Does your emerald run with sequential injection? just a thought because way back in 95 i had one of Dave Walkers first emerald boxes to run the turbo engine in my rally car, and due to the fact that it ran with banked injection just ocasionally on a cold start you would get the wasted spark igniting a bit of fuel and back firing, which blows all the hoses off the intake system!

(it's only a real problem on cars with plastic manifolds, as these explode! It was such a big problem for ford and rover at one point that no one was allowed to start either a ST170 or a Kv6 engined car with the bonnet open!)

It really depends on a few things such as amount of fuel and ignition timing / cam timming and also a bit of luck, but basically cause the wasted spark occurs during the overlap period (360 degrees out from TDC firing) you can get a spark in the chanmber which ignites the fuel waiting for the induction stroke in the manifold.

Anyway, that must be a nice trackday car, as a couple of guys at work have elises and i always think, yeah nice car, but where's the power?!

(not helped by my current "company" car having 550bhp, so just about anything feels a bit flat after that!):p

m0rk

14-12-2003, 14:12

Popped over briefly this afternoon & I must have seemed like a complete reprobate. I was just smiling from ear to ear.

I thought it felt nice & fast considering the long gearing I thought it was just that.

Then he got it on boost. bugger me I wasn't ready & my head flew backwards into the head rest!

Rates very highly in the "Marks fast cars list"

I'll wait til someone comes by in their company car to show me if that's faster.

Mark

Dormouse

14-12-2003, 14:24

Originally posted by m0rk
Popped over briefly this afternoon & I must have seemed like a complete reprobate. I was just smiling from ear to ear.

I thought it felt nice & fast considering the long gearing I thought it was just that.

Then he got it on boost. bugger me I wasn't ready & my head flew backwards into the head rest!

Rates very highly in the "Marks fast cars list"

I'll wait til someone comes by in their company car to show me if that's faster.

Mark

Leon R's Mark - Fastest cars in the world didn't you know? :devil: :p

Dor.

max_torque

14-12-2003, 14:24

Originally posted by m0rk

I'll wait til someone comes by in their company car to show me if that's faster.

Mark

Er, not at this time of year, with 800Nm, 550bhp and 355 section rear tyres combined with a greasy, wet, british road only my underpants draw empties fast! (and i LIKE going sideways usually
:p , but when the rear wheels spin at 120mph in 5th gear in a straight line down a dual carrigeway, descretion is most definatly the better part of valour!)

I would guess in fact, on power to weight, then in terms of absolute accel below say 100mph there woundn't be much in it, but where 550bhp really counts is above 150mph, where aero drag is starting to play a big part, but flooring the throttle still wangs the speedo round the dial like most cars in 2nd gear! So having 550bhp is pretty pointless in the UK!

One advantage the new car has though over the Vanquish is it's 300kg lighter! and doesn't have that stupid paddle shift rubbish, just a normal gearstick.

Dormouse

14-12-2003, 14:35

Have you managed to widen the garage to get it out yet? :p

Dor.

ibizacupra

14-12-2003, 14:40

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Hi

I hope you guys don't mind me asking a question that is not directly related to SEAT's I do own a Ibiza Sport 130 so I do qualify for membership :-)

I have fitted an 2001 Audi 1.8T engine type AWT in my Lotus Elise, it is fitted with the S3 K04 turbo and manifolds. I am currently running it on a development Emerald ECU that controls all engine functions. It has recorded 255 BHP and 260 ft lbs torque at about 1.2 bar boost. I am aiming for 300 BHP, is the K04 turbo capable of reaching that power ? If not can it be modified or do I need to change it ?

Do I need to uprate the rods and pistons to S3 also ? I guess I need to change the pistons but maybe the rods will be OK or am I on borrowed time ?

Bernard

If you fancied a giggle... you should call Mike or Elton @ Jabba.
Mildly boosted to 1.2 bar on their IHI should see you 360bhp on a largeport head... Not big boost so not too heavy on induction temps, nor loading on rods.. Pretty progressive power delivery instead of the K04's sledgehammer in with a bang power delivery (which is fine so long as you have traction at the time)

www.jabbasport.com (Tel: 01733 211779)

Jabba have been doing some work with 1.8T transplanted engines into other small sports/kit cars.... Lightweight and power.. makes me drule.. :D

Nice motor.. Must be great fun.
regards
Bill

max_torque

14-12-2003, 14:53

Originally posted by Dormouse
Have you managed to widen the garage to get it out yet? :p

Dor.

Sorry Dor, the car is not my rally car, which as yet is still unfinished......

This new car is a replacement for the Vanquish, which went back to those lovely chaps at AML a month or so back. (2 days after it went back the power steering stopped working, but i that aint my fault:p )

Anyway i though that i might be a bit disappointed with it's replacement, after all a Vanquish is pretty hard act to follow, but the new car has an engine 2.3 litres BIGGER than 'quisheys, and weighs 300kg less so it's more smiles per mile!
(i'm just waiting for the SVA test so i can get a UK reg, then bruntingthorpe here we come!)

Some good news on the rally car front thought, after what seems like an age the gearbox and torque-tube / Cf prop are just about in place, and the track spec engine should run next w/e on the dyno for some basic mapping and cam timing work (previous level engine made 483bhp, but looking to beat 500 this time). After that the engines coming apart for some mods to 34mm restricted spec, which add another £5k to the price, but LOOSE something like 200bhp, DOH! (i hate the FIA, spoilsports!):D

Unfortunately this year has been so busy at work and other things (built a friends Caterham, which they then spanked into a roundabout with less the 100miles on the clock!) that the rally car has taken a back seat. roll on 2004:cheers:

Ibiza sport man

14-12-2003, 15:55

Hi Bill

Might just call Jabbasport, been meaning to take the car over there sometime, they seemed quite keen to have a look.

Bernard

BenS1

14-12-2003, 21:57

Jabbasport can do 550bhp or 650bhp on the 1.8T engines (Depending on engine code) and so that should be pretty amazing on an Elise.

The 550Kg Shelsley 1.8T they IHI'd sounds cool... quite tempting. I'll be looking for a dedicated trackday car in 18 months or so and so far this is top of the list. :D Insane!

Cheers
Ben

Ibiza sport man

15-12-2003, 08:56

I think 300+ BHP should be adequate. Although as Mike Hailwood once said "there is no such thing as too much horsepower, the throttle works both ways"

Bernard

max_torque

15-12-2003, 10:18

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
I think 300+ BHP should be adequate
Bernard

Understatement of 2003!:p

To be honest we have all got a bit too used to the figures on modern high performance road cars (especially german ones!) where once 300bhp was big, then 400, and now you need at least 500 and preferably even 600bhp to really get anywhere! BUT a real eye opener for me was that Evo magazine test of an S2 Elan, which with only something like 130bhp still put in very respectable times at Bedford Autodrome, the key of course is weight. You now need 600bhp to move around when the average hatch weighs 1400kg and big saloon 1800kg!

300bhp in 800kg of Elise (+ 1 person!) is probably all you are gonna be able to uses on the road, and even at places like Silverstone or Donnington it should still feel fairly fast!

It's an interesting excerise on a boring sunday afternoon to fish out a load of old 1980's car mags (ie performance car etc) and compare weights, one that sticks in my mind is that a 1987 Volvo 340, a car critisised extensively for being far to heavily built, weighs 1010kg! (I wish my current hatch was that light):D

max_torque

15-12-2003, 10:35

On the subject of turbo lag, which in a mid engined rwd car is more important than you might think when you are close to the edge, there are various "mapping" tricks you can play, especially when you have a programmable ecu etc.

For example, get the oil and water temp really hot, idle the car in neutral, no electrical things switched on (not much of a problem in an elise!) this is the lowest engine friction point, now open the throttle to increase engine speed in 500rpm steps towards the red line rpm, and take note (or log if you have a flash ecu) of the "load" numbers to reach each rpm (load could be either TPS or MAP, i guess you are doing load on MAP and transient fuelling on TPS).

This will show you the "minimum load line" ie the area above this line will always be positive torque, and the area below will be negative torque.

what you do is now to change the numbers in the ignition map below the minimum torque line from the fairly sensible probably close to MBT (ie between 25 and 40 deg) to a massively retarded value at close throttle. What this does is as you come to an overrun situation or a trailling throttle the retarded ignition will delay the charge burn, and so bias the combustion energy towards the exhaust, increaseing EGT at EVO, and maintining turbine speed. This can have incredable effects on lag and often sounds / looks good with lots of bangs / flame! (by way of comparison, my rally car with full antilag, runs 45 degrees AFTER TDC during ALS operation)

Also in this area if you have throttle and speed dependant boost control, increase the target boost to way above maximum, you can't actually get it due to insufficient exhaust mass flow, but by doing this you will ensure that during a gear change the wastegate control valve will be ensuring that the wastegate is fully shut and not allowing gas to bypass the turbine.

On my last rally car which was a mid engined rwd turbo this allowed me to run a significantly bigger compressor wheel without increasing lag, and still maintained excellent throttle response.

Beyond these measures you really need proper ALS strategy, and an expensive ALS turbine / shaft and Inconnel exhaust manifold / sodium cooled exhaust valve to get durability!

On our current WRC car we have a pre-turbine combustor (design nicked from RR aero, cheers guys!) that actually runs as a gas producer when the engine is off boost, and the way we control boost pressure is simply to try to have the turbo at max rpm all the time. This means we have seem 550Nm and 2.5 bar boost at 900rpm!

slim_boy_fat

15-12-2003, 10:38

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Hi

It is quite quick, as it only weighs 800 kg.

Bernard

No 5hit ;)

Ibiza sport man

15-12-2003, 11:18

Hi max_torque.

Hmmmm sounds interesting, the ECU is certainly capable of implementing the strategy. Worth a dabble.

What would you say is the max EGT I could get away with on the K04 ? and where should it be measured ? and do you know of a suitable sensor. I can get the ECU to log it easy enough, it can handle 4 analog inputs as well as up to 32 existing channels.

Bernard

max_torque

15-12-2003, 11:47

On the standard 1.8t (225 bhp) max preturbine EGT, is 940 degC continuously, with peaks allowed to 960 degC. it is measured at the entry to the turbine housing. Maximum exhaust port temperature will be approximately 880degC, measured at the exhaust manifold flange. Of course in reality the exhaust gas is hotter as it leaves the cylinder, and cools as it travels towards the turbine and exhands, but when you measure only one cylinder you get a sort of "average" temp, becuase the exhaust gas is not flowing continuously.

Due to the thermal inertia of components and the fact that combustion is a periodic event not continuous, we would set these limits by running tests at various measured EGT's, then have parts like exhaust valve and turbine wheel sectioned, and use metalurgical methods to establish what temp they have actually reached. then we can set the maximum measured temp to suit.

I suspect that on the 1.8t, the exhaust valves will fail before the turbine wheel if subjected to excessive egt.

On the Audi 2.7 V6 bi-turbo, EGT is used as a control parameter and measured continuously by a pair of sensors (1 for each turbo) however these sensors, which use a 3mm dia thermocouple, output a duty cycle signal that is 0% at 900degC and 100% at 1000, so are not a lot of use, (and they are extremely expensive!)

I use a PI thermocouple amplifier box (circa £70 i think)and a normal 3mm diameter thermocouple (0 to 1250degC). The 0-5v amplified signal is inputed to my ECU, where i have calibrated the ecu to convert this to DegC EGT.

People argue that a 3mm thermocouple is slow to respond, which it is, but it still has a lower thermal inertia that the turbine wheel which is what you are trying to protect. On my car i actually only run the open loop fuelling at 0.85 lambda (LBT+2%) and rely on the pre-turbine thermocouple to add extra fuel as required. This allows me to stay at lean best torque fuelling for quick tip ins or short low gear accels, and only have too overfuel richer than LBT when the temp is going to go over my set point (i have a Myram shafted ALS turbine so i run up to 1060degC)
The situation is further complicated by the fact that i run in-cylinder water injection, which due to the fact that specific heat of water is 6 times that of gasoline, will cool the charge to the same degree with 6 times less mass injected!

For piece if mind (and on-road / stage mapping) i also have an OMP EGT gauge, that again uses a 3mm thermocouple (£140 ish from demon thieves i think) which is useful for just glancing at occasionally down long straights.

If you have mapped your car without an EGT sensor of some description (and if you have, HOW?) then you gonna either find huge chunks of power you have missed, or scare yourself silly when you see what temps you are actually running!)
:p

Let me know if you need more info, or if you wanna see these bits of kit them i'm only in Ecton Brook just down the road!

Ibiza sport man

15-12-2003, 12:02

Hi max-torque

You are obviously a wise man :-) we shall have to have a chat, as you say you are barely 10 miles down the road.

We mapped the car at Emerald using a wide band lambda sensor in the exhaust. I must admit we were not monitoring EGT but I don't think we are pushing the limits, not on the road anyway. You can't hold it flat out for more than about 20 seconds without reaching silly speeds anyway. Track use will be a different matter, hence the interest in measuring EGT. I can't find a suitable sensor supplier, I assume you are using a stainless or Inconel K type sensor. Can you tell me where you got it from, £75 from Demon Thieves sounds a rippoff ?

Bernard

max_torque

15-12-2003, 18:05

20 secs????

bearing in mind that you car can probably get from a standing start to 100mph in about 12 secs, full throttle for 20secs is HIGHLY illegal:p (well i won't tell the police if you don't!)

I have got a std K type thermocouple (3mm dia, 100mm long) from RS components, or Farnells etc. typically about £20 ish each. You want a 3mm dia one because that ensures that the end will not melt / fatigue off and go through your turbine wheel (which is bad!:mad: )

The problem with a std thermocouple of course is the fact that it's ouput is so low (mV) and to get a stabilised amplifier to convert this to something useful like 0-5v is difficult, especially when it needs to be run from something like 7 to 16 volts and be "rugged". Hence i bought the Pi amp, which is designed for automotive use with their range of datalogging boxes.

However looking at my OMP digital EGT gauge more closely, this also has a small amplifier section, so i suspect that if you can effectively calibrate the input pin of your ECU to convert a voltage to a degC reading then you would be able to "steal" the output from this OMP gauge. The OMP gauge is approx £140, complete with thermocouple, and this would give you both a dash display and a signal for your ECU.

If i get a chance i will stick a scopemeter on the output of the OMP amp and see what the signal looks like, and if it is possible to run a parallel wire to a ECU (via a large resistor) without stopping the dash read out from working.

cheers,

Paul.

(on a completely seperate note, do you have any diffinitive performance data for you car? If you want some let me know, as i have a Datron timing kit at my disposal!)(industry std 0-60, 0-100, 60 - 0, etc)

ibizacupra

15-12-2003, 18:15

Originally posted by max_torque
(on a completely seperate note, do you have any diffinitive performance data for you car? If you want some let me know, as i have a Datron timing kit at my disposal!)(industry std 0-60, 0-100, 60 - 0, etc)

Just wonder does the Datron work off GPS or something else?

max_torque

15-12-2003, 18:24

The datron kit is a few years old, so it doesn't use GPS, you have to stick a radar emitter / detector to the side/back of the car pointed at the ground. It's pretty easy to set up though and with the supplied suction sticky things easy to fit to just about any car!

Ibiza sport man

15-12-2003, 18:31

Hi again

According to some of the measurements I've taken it seems to do 0-100 in about 9 secs. Might be crap but it does 80-100 in less than 2.5 anyway. Not that I would ever go that fast !! It would be real interesting to put the Datron gear in it, maybe at the weekend. Please please :-)

I was thinking of using an AD595AQ thermocouple amplifier to drive the ECU 0-5V input, and also use its output for an LCD dash display. Didn't realise OMP did instruments.

One thing I haven't mentioned is that it has the diesel 6 speed box so the ratios are super tall. The breaker man conned me and I didn't know all the part numbers at the time. Think what it would go like with some sensible ratio's :-).

Bernard

ibizacupra

15-12-2003, 18:49

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Hi again

According to some of the measurements I've taken it seems to do 0-100 in about 9 secs. Might be crap but it does 80-100 in less than 2.5 anyway. Not that I would ever go that fast !! It would be real interesting to put the Datron gear in it, maybe at the weekend. Please please :-)

I was thinking of using an AD595AQ thermocouple amplifier to drive the ECU 0-5V input, and also use its output for an LCD dash display. Didn't realise OMP did instruments.

One thing I haven't mentioned is that it has the diesel 6 speed box so the ratios are super tall. The breaker man conned me and I didn't know all the part numbers at the time. Think what it would go like with some sensible ratio's :-).

Bernard

0-100 in 9sec on a diesel ratio'd box....
OMG! :D Luv it to bits!!!

Want one... :)

Geared for 200mph then... :p

If this is what you get from a K04.... you gonna luv an IHI...
(propells an Ibiza to 100 in 10sec, and does similar 80-100 time... in 400Kg more... What a toy.. Elise weight and handling with Jabba power.. Woohooo.

CupraR-Rog

15-12-2003, 22:09

Don't go getting any ideas now, Bill!!

Thinking about the gearbox, with that much power & little weight, you might be better off with the taller gearing... afterall, I managed to hit 6000rpm in 6th gear in my LCR, with the stereo, all the lights & AC running... (private stretch of tarmac, of course!!)

So, maybe in the Elise, it would accelerate like lightening, but soon top out bouncing off the limiter...

Ibiza sport man

16-12-2003, 07:59

Hi Cupra-R

At present it's geared for 218 MPH in top at 6500 RPM. A wee bit tall ! No way will it exceed 165 MPH even with 300 BHP. So I may as well gear it for around there. I don't seem to be able to find a suitable 6 speed gearbox (everybody wants one) so I may change the crown wheel and mainshaft to 3.96 which seems to be the highest ratio I can find in a 2 wheel drive 02M box.

PS I trust you are not serious about your mods - are you ??

Bill

Has anybody got any power curves for the IHI conversion ? I hear mixed reports about about it.

Bernard

WileEcoyote

16-12-2003, 08:37

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Hi Cupra-R

PS I trust you are not serious about your mods - are you ??

Bernard

I'm hoping the same thing too:D :redface: :D

ibizacupra

16-12-2003, 10:07

Originally posted by CupraR-Rog
Don't go getting any ideas now, Bill!!

Thinking about the gearbox, with that much power & little weight, you might be better off with the taller gearing... afterall, I managed to hit 6000rpm in 6th gear in my LCR, with the stereo, all the lights & AC running... (private stretch of tarmac, of course!!)

LOL.... have recently run to 7500rpm in 5th in ickle Ibiza on my 'private German Autobahn' road.
Not on the proper g'box on an 02A spare whilst mine being *cough* modified :)

GPS said...... 167mph :p :rolleyes:

Seems enough...
New g'box is being ratio'd to do 170mph in 6th @ 7800rpm

ibizacupra

16-12-2003, 10:11

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Bill

Has anybody got any power curves for the IHI conversion ? I hear mixed reports about about it.

Bernard

Here ya go...
This was day 1 conversion to 325bhp from 1.15bar boost only.
http://badger-5.com/bin/IHI-low-vs-high.jpg

The 2 plots are lowest boost and highest boost on Jabba's boost controller. This was back in Feb this year and the spec has evolved beyond this. The power delivery is nice and linear.

Heard mixed reports? What have you heard about it then? (and from whome dare I ask)

regards
bill

BenS1

16-12-2003, 11:46

Originally posted by ibizacupra
LOL.... have recently run to 7500rpm in 5th in ickle Ibiza on my 'private German Autobahn' road.
Not on the proper g'box on an 02A spare whilst mine being *cough* modified :)

GPS said...... 167mph :p :rolleyes:

Seems enough...
New g'box is being ratio'd to do 170mph in 6th @ 7800rpm

The trouble is though bill that the Max torque is below 7800rpm and so I doubt you'll ever reach 7800rpm in 6th. Surely you should choose your target top speed and gear it so that you hit that max top speed at the point of max torque in the rev range?

So, you got 167mph from the 02A box? How is its gearing compared to the standard box? Have you tried a 0-60 on this box, or are you trying not to break this one? ;) Also, does the 02A have a higher torque rating than the standard 02J?

Cheers
Ben

ibizacupra

16-12-2003, 13:38

Originally posted by BenS1
The trouble is though bill that the Max torque is below 7800rpm and so I doubt you'll ever reach 7800rpm in 6th. Surely you should choose your target top speed and gear it so that you hit that max top speed at the point of max torque in the rev range?

So, you got 167mph from the 02A box? How is its gearing compared to the standard box? Have you tried a 0-60 on this box, or are you trying not to break this one? ;) Also, does the 02A have a higher torque rating than the standard 02J?

Cheers
Ben
Max Torque or not.... it was only 3mph short of said speed on its temp 02A g'box. (whose ratios I actually quite like) - Remember the dynoplot above is for an example of the basic IHI that I had originally, and does not represent its current spec or power delivery which is somewhat different.

7500rpm in 02A's 5th was me bottling it not out of puff. Need quite a stretch of road to fully explore Vmax... and when in quiet enough a stretch. Things approach you at an alarming speed. Bruntingthorpe for example is no where near long enough to fully explore Vmax, and 160mph was doen there several times during the Pistonheads day, and PVW day some months earlier. (more power since PVW day and rebuild)

7800rpm is achievable in top gear I think (be it 5th or 6th depending on which box is in the car.)

7800rpm in the 02A fitted at the mo would be 173mph vs 188mph on the 02J its supposed to run. (not ever going to actually get that speed tho.. not without a lot more power) - Pretty arbitrary.

The 02A is shorter geared than the 02J which was in it (its original box)

Not tried any acceleration runs... Must be good boy and behave myself.. No more spare g'boxes. :p

02A is not any stronger than 02J.. very similar internals I believe.

regards
bill

CupraR-Rog

16-12-2003, 19:21

Mods? What mods??

I broke one of my neons the other day though - they don't take too kindly to the car resting on its chassis... need to get a new one now!!

Mods list updated... what's wrong with it??? :confused:

I think 160mph geared max for the elise would be a bit too low - OK so acceleration would be phenominal, but with that little weight, I think it would get there all too quickly, leaving you bouncing off the limiter on a long track straight...

...then again, I could be talking utter rubbish - again!

CupraR-Rog

16-12-2003, 19:27

Neon Piccie 1...

CupraR-Rog

16-12-2003, 19:29

Neon piccie 2...

Don't see what's wrong with them myself???

Strobes are ready to go on too!!

Anyway, this Elise...

ibizacupra

16-12-2003, 19:39

How this get onto Neons???

:confused:

Ibiza sport man

16-12-2003, 20:23

Hi CupraR-Rog

Hmmmm you are serious, a Max Power muppet man. Don't bother us again please, this is a technical discussion.

Bill

I've not posted today because I have been working with Dave Walker to map a Ford Duratec powered Elise. This might give you a clue as to the mixed reports .... Maybe you would like to run your car on their rollers, I could fix it up free of charge if you like. Settle it once and for all. We just don't see how it make make that sort of power on such low boost. I know the standard exhaust manifold is appalling and the turbo restrictive but 324 BHP on just 1 bar seems, shall we say, a bit enthusiastic.

Bernard

CupraR-Rog

16-12-2003, 20:23

I dunno... think someone mentioned my mods list...

Anyway, the Elise...

CupraR-Rog

16-12-2003, 20:31

I've plotted the turbo boost of my LCR against a mates Ibiza Cupra R (180bhp, 200 on the rollers), and the difference in boost is about 1psi...

Difference is, Ibiza Cupra R has a K03 turbo, LCR a K04, which as you obviously know is bigger.

Bill can probably explain this better, but what my interpretation of this is, is that at say 1 bar boost, the K04 is able to push through more air at 1 bar than the K03... I think of it in terms of hoses - with a said pump, you'll get more water through a firemans hose than a garden hose... if that makes any sense...

EDIT: Or, a better explanation might be to have 3 tanks of water (same capacity), each with a different size hose coming out of it - small dia to represent K03, med dia for K04, big dia for IHI. The water represents the 1 bar pressure, the hose the size of the turbo...same pressure in each hose...

Tazkenny

17-12-2003, 00:14

Guys, please write a big book on your knowledge and tuning experiences....makes me wish I'd had the vision to do a degree in auto engineering....
Anyway, This is brilliant reading so far.... Intersted to see your output with Dave Walkers rollers Bill, pressume you will take up the offer. I imagine your power @ 1bar comes courtesy of the leap in CFM you see with the better manifold + turbo ?.

Oh, and think your mental for doing 160MPH in an Ibiza ? I find the handling twitchy even at Knockhill where I am lucky to get above 100. (standard car)
Respect :D

Ibiza sport man

17-12-2003, 07:55

The flow of air doesn't work like that, it doesn't matter what is supplying the air. Ignoring a number of other fairly insignificant factors, if you apply a given pressure to a given size hole then you will always get the same flow irrespective of whether the air comes from a turbocharger or a bicycle pump.

One signicant factor is the air temperature leaving the compressor. Air is heated when it is compressed and depending on where you are in the compressor map the compressor efficiency can vary greatly. Therefore the discharge temperature of the air in a poorly selected turbo could be maybe 70 deg C higher than the best one. This will affect the engine output. However assuming that neither the K04 nor the IHI are badly selected then I would not have thought that the difference in the performance due to compressor inefficiency would account for so much horsepower. For example, my engine made 250 BHP running at 1.2 bar, Bills made 324 at 1.0. I appreciate that the K04 is close to its limit at 250 + BHP and will not be performing at its best.

I suspect that Bills engine has the bigger ported head which is a bit better for airflow, but another 74 BHP at less boost ?

Don't get me wrong, I would love it to be the case. It would solve my dilema of how to get more power but I don't want to shell the money unless I am sure it will work.

It would be interesting to get it (or another IHI equipped engine) on the Emerald rollers.

Anobody know about the E05 turbo ? check out: http://www.eurospecsport.com/e05.htm

Bernard

ibizacupra

17-12-2003, 09:05

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Bill

I've not posted today because I have been working with Dave Walker to map a Ford Duratec powered Elise. This might give you a clue as to the mixed reports .... Maybe you would like to run your car on their rollers, I could fix it up free of charge if you like. Settle it once and for all. We just don't see how it make make that sort of power on such low boost. I know the standard exhaust manifold is appalling and the turbo restrictive but 324 BHP on just 1 bar seems, shall we say, a bit enthusiastic.

Bernard

Now there's an offer...
I think Dave Walker (much as I respect his awesome knowledge) needs to see to believe...

I can turn mine down to 1.15 bar to simulate the as supplied dynoplot I posted above. My motor is of a different spec to then, with a lower CR, ported small port head (waste of time), and functioning chargecooler. I now run at a max of 1.5bar boost which makes it fly.

The 20V head is the secret to the power vs boost. Mass Airflow through an exceptionally well flowing cylinder head. 15psi did give 325bhp (uncorrected). The car was run a couple of weeks later at Stealth Racings dyno (another quality VAG tuner) and turned the same power/torque within a couple of number. 325/280.

I would happily run on DW's rollers tho... Seeing would be believing.

I have a few videos of the Ibiza on various dyno's which you/he could look at when you get a mo... (BB large files)

Dyno's:-

TSR (in original 325bhp spec) - http://badger-5.com/bin/TSR-RR_Badger.wmv
Stealth (current spec, off the clock) - http://badger-5.com/bin/bill_337.wmv
Interpro (massive heatsoak, translucent manifold!!)- http://badger-5.com/bin/Badger_glowing_manifold.wmv

Compared to many other SEATs on this forum, and the peeps who have seen it in action for real, the figures, relative to other chipped SEATs on the same dyno, same day, do seem to correspond. I luv the 20V engine... :)

I would be very happy to show Dave Walker my motor... He is a top chap... :D

regards
Bill

ibizacupra

17-12-2003, 09:25

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
The flow of air doesn't work like that, it doesn't matter what is supplying the air. Ignoring a number of other fairly insignificant factors, if you apply a given pressure to a given size hole then you will always get the same flow irrespective of whether the air comes from a turbocharger or a bicycle pump.

One signicant factor is the air temperature leaving the compressor. Air is heated when it is compressed and depending on where you are in the compressor map the compressor efficiency can vary greatly. Therefore the discharge temperature of the air in a poorly selected turbo could be maybe 70 deg C higher than the best one. This will affect the engine output. However assuming that neither the K04 nor the IHI are badly selected then I would not have thought that the difference in the performance due to compressor inefficiency would account for so much horsepower. For example, my engine made 250 BHP running at 1.2 bar, Bills made 324 at 1.0. I appreciate that the K04 is close to its limit at 250 + BHP and will not be performing at its best.

I suspect that Bills engine has the bigger ported head which is a bit better for airflow, but another 74 BHP at less boost ?

Don't get me wrong, I would love it to be the case. It would solve my dilema of how to get more power but I don't want to shell the money unless I am sure it will work.

It would be interesting to get it (or another IHI equipped engine) on the Emerald rollers.

Anobody know about the E05 turbo ? check out: http://www.eurospecsport.com/e05.htm

Bernard

If you get a mo... you must pop round Jabbasport and test drive their Ibiza... running near the same spec as mine (less boost cos their sane people :p ).

It makes for a big smile... given its a shopping car that propells you down the oh so bumpy roads round there.

IHI really does run lower boost to crank up the higher bhp figures.. The major difference is the torque delivery. K04 is thumpy torque delivery, much more so than the IHI I run. It does'nt sustain this torque tho... high(ish) boost, good thump, good acceleration, but high heat load, and not sustained as high in the rev band as the IHI does. Factory rev limit is 6800rpm. Mine is currently 7800rpm and pulls hard most of the way.

If you overlayed a Leon-R K04 dynoplot (chipped one) over the IHI, the K04'd one would be higher torque in the lower rpms and mid range (plateau), but then tail off as the revs climb at a fast rate than the IHI which keeps rolling in. Power delivery (urge) is just continnual.
The best plot I have to hand as a comparison from my chipped K03'd Ibiza to Jabba's IHI'd Ibiza is below. I hope this sort of makes sense to the description above. Note the K03 is leading the IHI in the lower rpms, but falls off much before the IHI does. - This was the before vs after conversion plot. The cylinder head is small port.

http://badger-5.com/bin/IHIvs210-sm.jpg

regards
Bill

Ibiza sport man

17-12-2003, 09:33

Hi Bill

Interesting stuff eh ? I'll try and fix something up with Dave/Karl in the near future. I'll get your number from your website and give you a call.

Thanks for your input, it's very helpful to get info from people who have been there before.

Bernard

ibizacupra

17-12-2003, 09:44

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Hi Bill

Interesting stuff eh ? I'll try and fix something up with Dave/Karl in the near future. I'll get your number from your website and give you a call.

Thanks for your input, it's very helpful to get info from people who have been there before.

Bernard

Should be interesting.... and fun. :D
Speak soon then.

regards
Bill

BenS1

17-12-2003, 12:21

Ibiza sport man

17-12-2003, 12:39

Yes, but the boost pressure is measured AFTER the turbo not within it. So even if the turbo is less restrictive you are still trying to shove the air into the same hole, ie the engine. Very simplistic I know but I still think my analogy holds up. I agree the IHI can hold the boost at high RPM whereas the K04 falls away. What I don't follow is why it produces the same power at much less boost.

A Cosworth YB turbo is a good comparison as it's also a superb engine design but 200cc bigger. A Cosworth requires 1 bar boost to make 270bhp so to make 250bhp with 0.62bar & with 200cc less is an achievement.

We are arranging for Bill's car to go on the Emerald rollers soon so it will be an interesting day.

Bernard

ibizacupra

17-12-2003, 13:35

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Yes, but the boost pressure is measured AFTER the turbo not within it. So even if the turbo is less restrictive you are still trying to shove the air into the same hole, ie the engine. Very simplistic I know but I still think my analogy holds up. I agree the IHI can hold the boost at high RPM whereas the K04 falls away. What I don't follow is why it produces the same power at much less boost.

A Cosworth YB turbo is a good comparison as it's also a superb engine design but 200cc bigger. A Cosworth requires 1 bar boost to make 270bhp so to make 250bhp with 0.62bar & with 200cc less is an achievement.

We are arranging for Bill's car to go on the Emerald rollers soon so it will be an interesting day.

Bernard

I would say the 20v head outflows the cosworth on hence better airflow (mass airflow) for the given shove (boost)

As an aside... There's a Ford tuner not too far from Jabba who mentioned to Jabba about a certain yellow ibiza and an RS Cosworth Powered RWD Focus.... WRC look alike. Earlier this year I was @ the Ford RS day at Castle Combe, and had some excellent on track fun with this focus. 460bhp focus, rwd and a rally driver owner. Top fun, and enjoyed passing it :) - Anyhow.... this Ford tuner (who's name escapes me at the mo) was'nt surprised as he knew the 20V heads flow abilities, and made a comparison between a fully worked Zetec head and the bog stock 20V one... 143cfm from the race prepared Zetec head and 156cfm from the stock 20V one. Not sure how all this compares to the Cosworth head, but the airflow ability of the 20V combined with the larger nature of an IHI/Jabba upgrade does 'unplug' the 'cork' from the motor.

In stock K03/K04 trim the engines do not produce much power and are breathless over 5500-6000+rpm. Where as the IHI keeps on going, and transforms the 20v motor into a rev monstor (if you want to) - Ibiza revs to 7800rpm from its ported smallport, and the MKIV rev'd to 8500rpm from its largeport. Whether or not you want this power delivery or revs is driver dependant. Suits me fine tho :D

I would imagine in a lightweight car, the progressive power delivery from an IHI would really make for a fast sweet drive. Not so in with a bang power delivery, but continuous and progressive whilst remaining brutal in its quantity.

regards
bill

PS. email sent re the date..

max_torque

17-12-2003, 18:49

Most people incorrectly assume that a turbocharger is used to blow air into the cylinder, unlike an NA engine which sucks it in. In reality the turbocharged engine actually has a worse cylinder "pressure ratio" than an NA engine due to the large back pressure created by the turbo charger.

An NA engine can only ever get it's plenum to atmospheric pressure, and with a good design in intake manifold etc can get just above atmospheric pressure at the inlet valve for short periods (intake tunning waves ram air in!) But as it also has a "free flow" exhaust, probably with little silencing there is typically only 0.4 bar or less resisting the exit of exhaust gases. The breathing ability of an engine is measured in something called volumetric efficiency, it compares the actual cylinder charge to the ideal cylinder charge, so if you completely fill a cylinder with air you get a manifold vol eff of 100%. road engines typically reach 100% vol eff at peak torque, race engines that can get away with a peaky torque curve will reach up to 120% vol eff. (ie the intake tunning is actually doing 20% compression and "overfilling" the cylinder)

Now for a turbo engine, the work required to compress the intake charge requires you to remove energy from the exhaust, this creates a large pre-turbine pressure. On a typical turbocharged road engine there will be approximately 2.5 to 3 times the boost pressure acting as pre-turbine pressure. This means that to run 1 bar boost, you get something like 3 bar pre-turbine. This is much worse than for an NA engine. Hence turbo engines will not reach the same vol eff as an NA engine. The high back pressure behind the exhuast valve will lead to lots of residual exhaust gases in the cylinder at the end of the exhuast valve opeing period, these take up space that prevents as much fresh charge filling the cylinder. And because the exhaust residuals are hot, they also heat the new charge, and cause detonation, forcing you to retard the ignition and creating a further performance reduction.

So what a turbo actually does is to increase the manifold air density, less of which will be sucked into the chamber compared to an NA engine, but this is more than offset by the increased density.

The 1.8t engine is a typical audi engine as std, ie it has a very low boost threshold, low lag and a flat torque curve, and produces peak power at a low rpm. To get these attributes required the use of a small and hence highly restrictive turbocharger turbine, and to meet emissions limits required the exhaust manifold to be very small to minimise heat loss on start and "light off" the catalyst as fast as possible. The basic head / port design is however pretty good (very good for a turbo actually as head is used on NA version as well)

The YB series of engines was mentioned, and these can produce enormous power outputs, but this is down to 2 things not really connect to air mass flow. 1) basic strength, built like a brick *hit house! massive bearings/ rods / block etc allows huge cylinder pressures befoe bits fail. 2) high tumble and cylinder squish, on a turbo engine you aint really got a problem getting charge into the engine, but you do have a problem buring it fast enough, a high charge motion cylinder burns quicker, and limits detonation, hence you can run big boost and advanced spark for a very rapid pressure rise in cylinder. (YB burns as std at 6 bar / crank degree pressure rise, typical NA engine burns at only 3 (one of the reasons the YB is regarded as being "harse", you really "hear" each bang!)

The 1.8t does suffer form having not much squish, and poor cylinder head cooling, hence a larger turbo will "unlock" lots more power as:

1) preturbine back pressure falls for the same boost pressure, increaseing vol eff, reducing in-cylinder exhaust gas residualls.
2) this means more air, add more fuel to get more cylinder pressure
3) less residuals mean cooler charge, so reduced detonation, so advance the ignition, and put a higher percentage of work into the pistons rather than waste heat out the exhaust
3) rev the engine faster, increases cylinder charge motion, further preventing detonation.

Bills engine, if you assume a vol eff of 95% (typical good turbo figure) making say 240 kw at 6500rpm (320 bhp) on 1.15 bar boost (gauge) is running at a Brake Specific Air Consumption (BSAC) of approximately 3.5 Kg/Kwhr, a figure that is good, but perfectly achieveable with careful selection of compontents and good mapping.

ibizacupra

17-12-2003, 19:18

That was a good read. :)

I do recall before I had the IHI, there were many people who did'nt believe the IHI could do what it was claimed to..... many months and miles on it's done what it said on the tin.

Not the most massive power to be had from a 20VT but its good fun, and very much nicer then K0-something.. (at a price)

1.15bar on mine did the 325bhp figure.
1.25bar on a largeport customer MKIV did 363bhp and 323lb/ft

I am whacking in 1.5bar to get close to those numbers....

Wondering what and if I can squeeze 1.5 bar from the IHI on a largeport head on the Ibiza. :) :D :p

PeterS

17-12-2003, 19:33

Thread of the month chaps - excellent read.

OK...so what head have I got on an AUQ 2002 Leon 20VT then? Large or small port? ;)

Peter

max_torque

17-12-2003, 19:58

Originally posted by ibizacupra
That was a good read. :)

Wondering what and if I can squeeze 1.5 bar from the IHI on a largeport head on the Ibiza. :) :D :p

sorry that was a bit of a long post, but it aint really possible to simplify these things. (although that was obviously the ladybird book of turbocharger efficiency!):p

What you need Bill is water injection! (in-cylinder) it lifts my the BSAC of my rally engine to around 3.2 (lower number is better as more power from less air) and allows me to run above 9 to 1 CR with 2.5 bar boost!

One thing to watch though, the reason you can get away with what seem like serious boost increases on "road" turbo engines is that as you increase the boost, although you get an increase in BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) and a corresponding rise in torque, the effects of increased detonation leading to retarded ignition timming result in only a small increase in peak cylinder pressure and rate of rise. (You end up effectively burning a greater proportion of the charge later in the power stroke, so the increasing cylinder volume as the piston falls offsets the greater heat release from the greater air / fuel mass, leaving you with a long duration fat cylinder pressure trace, rather than a short duration / tall one) This means things like piston and rods don't actually see the full magnitude of the performance increase suggested by the BMEP figure alone, good for durability.
If you fit water injection, the sudden ability advance the ignition will release much more work to the piston, but will result in a huge leap in peak cylinder pressure, and probably at least double the rate of rise of cylinder pressure after ignition, all bad for things like pistons etc! And as a double wammy, as you are now burning the charge earlier you will loose less heat out the exhaust (good for reducing EGT!) but that heat is now going to have longer to soak into the piston and head, increasing metal temperatures and reducing the strength / fatigue resistance!

BenS1

17-12-2003, 22:14

So in summary, do the benefits of water injection outweigh the costs?

I guess they must, providing you have uprated rods and pistons (JE rods/pistons £1600 from Jabbasport when I last saw them.).

Cheers
Ben

Ibiza sport man

18-12-2003, 08:10

max_torque

Very interesting read and I agree with all you say, I accept that the IHI should produce more power by having the capability to hold boost at higher RPM. Just suprises me that it produces it at so much less boost. The standard exhaust manifold is so restrictive it's painful to look at, somebody said it was to keep the gas velocity up to reduce turbo lag. I don't go along with that, it has too many turns before entering the turbo. The emissions argument makes more sense.

Bernard

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 10:41

Hmmm.
Rods are on their way to me...for ibiza.

JE pistons going into the MKIV with its Pauter steel rods.... lower CR than before....

Water injection sounds cool (pardon the punn)

Aquamist? I presume.

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 11:13

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
max_torque

Very interesting read and I agree with all you say, I accept that the IHI should produce more power by having the capability to hold boost at higher RPM. Just suprises me that it produces it at so much less boost. The standard exhaust manifold is so restrictive it's painful to look at, somebody said it was to keep the gas velocity up to reduce turbo lag. I don't go along with that, it has too many turns before entering the turbo. The emissions argument makes more sense.

Bernard

airflow.. lots of airflow

Jabba manifold is less restrictive as is the larger turbo itself...
amazing really that the std unit does as well as it does through such small bores.

BenS1

18-12-2003, 11:57

Originally posted by ibizacupra
Hmmm.
Rods are on their way to me...for ibiza.

JE pistons going into the MKIV with its Pauter steel rods.... lower CR than before....

Water injection sounds cool (pardon the punn)

Aquamist? I presume.

Yeah, I want to lower the compression ratio too but my options are to have the standard pistons machined or to go for the JE pistons which are lower CR anyway. The thing putting me off getting the JE's was the labour cost of fitting them, but then that will apply to machining the standard ones too. The JE ones are obviously stronger and the CR is even lower than that of the machined normal pistons, so that may be the way to go.

BUT, that was when my plan was for as much poswer as possible. Now that we have seen the weakness of the gearbox I don't think I'll be taking the power too high for now. Now until something is done about the gearbox.

The Gearbox is being stripped and rebuilt with a ?Quaife ATB Diff added at the moment as Autotechniks (Hency why I'm driving around in an RX-7). Alan is gonna try some 'tricks' to help with the high rev gearchanges, but not a lot can be done about overall strength. :( New gearbox/gearkit or car may be required for more power.

I nearly bought the fully mappable Aquamist system a couple of months ago (S2 is it?). I phoned Jabba and asked if it would help and they said yes, and that they had had good results with Aquamist in the past. But then they told me that they wouldn' be able to fit it to my car because they wouldn't have time! I suggested getting it fitted elsewhere and they said that really they'd have to do it. They suggested that I wait 6 months and see if they have time then.

Cheers
Ben

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 12:43

Originally posted by BenS1
Yeah, I want to lower the compression ratio too but my options are to have the standard pistons machined or to go for the JE pistons which are lower CR anyway. The thing putting me off getting the JE's was the labour cost of fitting them, but then that will apply to machining the standard ones too. The JE ones are obviously stronger and the CR is even lower than that of the machined normal pistons, so that may be the way to go.

BUT, that was when my plan was for as much poswer as possible. Now that we have seen the weakness of the gearbox I don't think I'll be taking the power too high for now. Now until something is done about the gearbox.

The Gearbox is being stripped and rebuilt with a ?Quaife ATB Diff added at the moment as Autotechniks (Hency why I'm driving around in an RX-7). Alan is gonna try some 'tricks' to help with the high rev gearchanges, but not a lot can be done about overall strength. :( New gearbox/gearkit or car may be required for more power.

I nearly bought the fully mappable Aquamist system a couple of months ago (S2 is it?). I phoned Jabba and asked if it would help and they said yes, and that they had had good results with Aquamist in the past. But then they told me that they wouldn' be able to fit it to my car because they wouldn't have time! I suggested getting it fitted elsewhere and they said that really they'd have to do it. They suggested that I wait 6 months and see if they have time then.

Cheers
Ben
My Ibiza runs machined pistons and ceramic coating.. Seems ok to me and they're pretty light. Got some lightweight rods on their way now (customs called for me to pay vat tho before releasing customs clearance !!! DOH)

Hopefully Alan is able to make as good a job as possible on the 02J unit as this is by far the most cost effective way of sorting a transmission. Gear strength, is still gear strength. I would tho in the g'boxes defence, that jumping over the mountain section @ Cadwell did'nt help 2nd much... shock loading and me not lifting :p

Time and Jabba are tricky things indeed as I know all too well :rolleyes: Busy busy peeps.

BenS1

18-12-2003, 12:55

Any reason you haven't gone for the uprated rods that are sitting there ready and available in the Jabbasport office?

Cheers
Ben

max_torque

18-12-2003, 13:05

Originally posted by BenS1
So in summary, do the benefits of water injection outweigh the costs?

Cheers
Ben

As always "Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go!"
If you really need to find every last bhp out of an engine, either because you are competeing (rally/race) or cause you really must have a stupidly powerful car then yes! You are already well into the area of diminishing returns by now anyway, as lets face it, even a totally std 1.8t engined car is actually plenty fast enough on UK roads!

The advantage of water injection is that by limiting in-cylinder charge temperature you are actually improving the efficiency of the combustion cycle, and getting more work out of the fuel and air you already have, as long as you internal components can withstand the increased loadings it will actually increase the durability of you engine. (stops detonation, improves fuel econonmy, allows you to run less boost, reduces EGT etc)

I should have explained in my last post why a large turbo is more efficient than a small one in terms of peak power. Basically the small std turbo was required to pass emissions and give a low boost threshold, hence it has small passages, lots of tightly packed blades, and a geometry (A/R etc) optimised to extract as much energy as possible from the exhaust gas at low flow rates. Hence at peak power rpm, the turbocharger is very inefficient at the high exhaust and compressor flow rates. A larger turbo will be significantly more efficient at high mass flows, producing less exhaust back pressure, and crucially as it's compressor is more efficient less work is required from the turbine (reduced EBP) and the compressor outlet temp is lower, reducing detonation further and increasing plenum density WITHOUT a boost pressure increase.

So flywheel torque will be improved by the following methods:

1) lower pre-turbine pressure gives:

less pumping work by piston on exhaust stroke
less in-cylinder exhaust gas residuals at EVC, increased Vol eff= more air flow for same boost pressure.
Greater expansion ratio of charge reduces preturbine exhaust gas temp, allowing a reduction in overfuelling closer to LBT in order to stop turbine melting

2) more efficient compresor gives:

lower charge temps, increased plenum density for same boost presure, and a further lowering of the in-cylinder charge temp.
less requirement for turbine work = wastegate further open = lower EBP

3) reduced in-cylinder charge temps by methods 1 and 2 above gives:
higher detonation threshold = advanced spark, more work to piston & lower EGT

Basically compressor efficiency that is improved leads to a spiral of factors that all compliment each other and improve performance, lower efficiency spirals the other way. (which is why people who simply keep turning up the boost pressure on std components get to the point where they don't get any more power, burn a lot of fuel for no gain and usually end up breaking something!)(badly chipped RS turbo anyone?:p )

The question often asked is if this is such a great thing to do, why didn't audi do it?

1) car doesn't pass EU4 emissions - can't actually sell it! (it may well be able to do 0-60 in 3 secs and 300mph, but if you aren't allowed to sell it then that ain't much use!)
2) Boost threshold at too high an rpm - for some reason audi are totally obsessed with a flat torque curve, which must have better than 80% of peak torque at 2000rpm, why? no idea, as most people i know wouldn't complain if they stuck there foot down at 2000rpm in 4th gear and the car didn't accel, they'd just change down a few gears!
3) durability, all audi engines must do at least 3 complete HST tests without failure to be signed off. HST test is 180hrs (thats over a week!) at wide open throttle peak power rpm - continously. I think it's safe to say that bills engine would not pass this test!
4) other reasons - lots including tricky ones like package, thermal management, crash, COST!, trade agreements with certain suppliers, and about 100 more i can't think of!

BenS1

18-12-2003, 13:25

Originally posted by max_torque
I should have explained in my last post why a large turbo is more efficient than a small one in terms of peak power. Basically the small std turbo was required to pass emissions and give a low boost threshold, hence it has small passages, lots of tightly packed blades, and a geometry (A/R etc) optimised to extract as much energy as possible from the exhaust gas at low flow rates. Hence at peak power rpm, the turbocharger is very inefficient at the high exhaust and compressor flow rates. A larger turbo will be significantly more efficient at high mass flows, producing less exhaust back pressure, and crucially as it's compressor is more efficient less work is required from the turbine (reduced EBP) and the compressor outlet temp is lower, reducing detonation further and increasing plenum density WITHOUT a boost pressure increase.

Obviously the ultimate solution is a Variable Geometry turbo that can act like a small turbo at low speeds and a proportionally bigger turbo as the revs increase. Gives low boost threshold, low lag, optimal power for the rpm and the other benefits you've listed.

I believe that this technology is starting to show up in the latest Deisels but everyone I have spoken to says that they are not yet suitable for petrol engines, as they melt! I notice that Aerocharger make one for petrol engines, but if they were that great then I'm sure I'd of heard more about them.

4) other reasons - lots including tricky ones like package, thermal management, crash, COST!, trade agreements with certain suppliers, and about 100 more i can't think of!

Such as the fact that the little and now old 1.8T would still embarass some of there newer bigger engines! Who would buy a 240bhp 3.2 litre V6 engine when you can get a lighter, better 1.8T that gives over 300bhp?!?!?

BTW, I think we could write a rival to 'Maximum Boost' by Corky Bell with the info in this thread. ;) Keep it coming! :)

Cheers
Ben

max_torque

18-12-2003, 13:27

Originally posted by ibizacupra
My Ibiza runs machined pistons and ceramic coating.. .

AHH ceramic coated pistons, currently the area of most indecision for my rally engine build!

Basically a ceramic coating is a thin layer with a very low heat conductivity coefficient, ie, even when one side is really hot and the other really cool, very little thermal energy flow between the 2 sides, unlike alluminium that has a very good thermal conductivity coefficient (why you make car radiators and cooking pans out of it!)

So what does this mean? well a ceramic piston coating will deffinately reduce the metal temperatures in the actual piston, this is good for piston strength, and the less heat that can escape out of the combustion chamber means the burning charge will be hotter and therefore at a higher pressure, which will push down on piston harder and produce more work - all good so far!

the problem? well i've had more arguments about this with other engineers and engine designers than you can believe, but effectively any material with a low thermal conductivity coefficient, MUST therefore have a temperature at it's extremes close to the temperature of the environment it borders. (you will need to read up on heat transfer and HOT / Cold object radiation to confirm this, a bit too long winded for here!) Hence the temperature of the ceramic coat on the inside bonded to the piston will be that of the pistons top surface, and the temperature of the upper edge of the ceramic coating boardering the combustion chamber will be that of the combustion chamber. The big question being if the top surface of the ceramic coat is too hot, then it will cause detonation and preignition, drastically reducing performance. But because the 2000 degC combustion event is cyclic, and interspersed by things like a nice cold induction event it's very difficult to say how hot the top of the piston will be!

I suspect that in effect, if you piston is strong enough to live without a ceramic coat, then don't coat it, if it isn't then a ceramic coat maybe the only way of making the piston survive!

So am i gonna get my pistons coated? ... er... i'll let you know when i've decided that one.........

(i'm trying to get an friend of mine who does thermal combustion analysis to include a "ceramic" piston coating in his GTpower engine simulation to see what happens to the temps!)

max_torque

18-12-2003, 13:42

Originally posted by BenS1
Obviously the ultimate solution is a Variable Geometry turbo that can act like a small turbo at low speeds and a proportionally bigger turbo as the revs increase.

BTW, I think we could write a rival to 'Maximum Boost' by Corky Bell with the info in this thread. ;) Keep it coming! :)

Cheers
Ben

Other solutions include electrically assisted turbo's (small motor helps it to spin up at low rpm), electrically driven turbo (large motor totally drives compressor like a supercharger, but both these really need the introduction of 42v electrics before they become viable.

Varriable geometery diesel turbos are now a production viability, (150 PD engine uses them for example) but they are not yet production durable at petrol EGT's and still cannot change the shape of there blades, only the area of the housings surrounding them, so you can't quite get the same efficiency of a optimised for that speed normal turbo.

The Aerocharger is an interesting device from across the pond, it's claims are impressive, inculding no oil / cooling supply from engine, mount at any installed angle, and varible geometery turbine. They have been used with success in aftermarket turbo applications, but no OEM production use yet. (don't know if this is cost or durability issue)(I was due to do a bench marking excercise on a twin turbo V8 with 2 Aerochargers a few years back, but it got canned)

One problem with writing a book, what will we call it?

(how about "Above Maximum Boost!"):jog:

Phill

18-12-2003, 14:57

where are you copying and pasting this stuff from :D

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 16:27

Originally posted by BenS1
Any reason you haven't gone for the uprated rods that are sitting there ready and available in the Jabbasport office?

Cheers
Ben

erm :rolleyes: nope... did'nt know there were some.
I suspect mine are lighter if those are Pauter...
Strong but heavy

Did'nt know... Ignorence is bliss and I hope mine are cheaper... but definately lighter me thinks (hopes :p )

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 16:35

Originally posted by max_torque
3) durability, all audi engines must do at least 3 complete HST tests without failure to be signed off. HST test is 180hrs (thats over a week!) at wide open throttle peak power rpm - continously. I think it's safe to say that bills engine would not pass this test!

LOL.... not a hope... melted stuff anyone :D
feck me... wide open throttle for 180 hours at peak power rpm!!!

Hmmmm.
Translucent manifold @ Interpro after a minutes full load... Hate to think what induction temp conditions would spiral to under that sustained load.. Wow :eyepop:

Is this test on a sample of 'every' engine type/option or a bench test. (are they run up and factory dyno'd?)

Bill

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 16:39

Originally posted by max_torque
AHH ceramic coated pistons, currently the area of most indecision for my rally engine build!

Basically a ceramic coating is a thin layer with a very low heat conductivity coefficient, ie, even when one side is really hot and the other really cool, very little thermal energy flow between the 2 sides, unlike alluminium that has a very good thermal conductivity coefficient (why you make car radiators and cooking pans out of it!)

So what does this mean? well a ceramic piston coating will deffinately reduce the metal temperatures in the actual piston, this is good for piston strength, and the less heat that can escape out of the combustion chamber means the burning charge will be hotter and therefore at a higher pressure, which will push down on piston harder and produce more work - all good so far!

the problem? well i've had more arguments about this with other engineers and engine designers than you can believe, but effectively any material with a low thermal conductivity coefficient, MUST therefore have a temperature at it's extremes close to the temperature of the environment it borders. (you will need to read up on heat transfer and HOT / Cold object radiation to confirm this, a bit too long winded for here!) Hence the temperature of the ceramic coat on the inside bonded to the piston will be that of the pistons top surface, and the temperature of the upper edge of the ceramic coating boardering the combustion chamber will be that of the combustion chamber. The big question being if the top surface of the ceramic coat is too hot, then it will cause detonation and preignition, drastically reducing performance. But because the 2000 degC combustion event is cyclic, and interspersed by things like a nice cold induction event it's very difficult to say how hot the top of the piston will be!

I suspect that in effect, if you piston is strong enough to live without a ceramic coat, then don't coat it, if it isn't then a ceramic coat maybe the only way of making the piston survive!

So am i gonna get my pistons coated? ... er... i'll let you know when i've decided that one.........

(i'm trying to get an friend of mine who does thermal combustion analysis to include a "ceramic" piston coating in his GTpower engine simulation to see what happens to the temps!)

Ceramic coated exhaust manifold and turbo housing too. :)
Its something Jabba offered and something we did on my Jetta 16v way back when...... Seemed to allow me to run more advance than previously and no Det.
Seemed ok...

m0rk

18-12-2003, 16:40

did Paul say load? maybe just spinning up nice & freely

ibizacupra

18-12-2003, 21:18

Originally posted by m0rk
did Paul say load? maybe just spinning up nice & freely

No load no boost.... so I guess some load...

Paul? Which is it?

BenS1

18-12-2003, 21:22

Originally posted by ibizacupra
erm :rolleyes: nope... did'nt know there were some.
I suspect mine are lighter if those are Pauter...
Strong but heavy

Did'nt know... Ignorence is bliss and I hope mine are cheaper... but definately lighter me thinks (hopes :p )

Mike showed me the JE pistons and showed me the rods at the same time. I assumed they were JE too but not sure.

They were lighter than standard ones but I don't know how light your ones will be in comparison. They were titanium coloured but thats all I know. I think the compression ratio on these as is was about 8.5:1 but they could be machined to les than 8:1 whereas I think the standard pistons can only reliably be machined do to something like 8.6:1, I think?

I'm sure Mike can tell you all about them. :D

Cheers
Ben

ibizacupra

19-12-2003, 07:52

Originally posted by BenS1

I'm sure Mike can tell you all about them. :D

Cheers
Ben

LOL.. you'd think... but I would have to be able to actually get hold of him... :p something not possible of late.. :rolleyes:

BenS1

19-12-2003, 13:52

I can understand that they will be very busy for a few months once the IHI kits are released, but why are they so busy ATM?

Its not like they are still developing the IHI kit, coz everytime I phone they say that the kits are ready and they are just waiting for the downpipes to be delivered!

Cheers
Ben

ibizacupra

19-12-2003, 14:37

Originally posted by BenS1
I can understand that they will be very busy for a few months once the IHI kits are released, but why are they so busy ATM?

Its not like they are still developing the IHI kit, coz everytime I phone they say that the kits are ready and they are just waiting for the downpipes to be delivered!

Cheers
Ben

Strange as it may seem, Jabba do more than just work on IHI kits... remaps... (Mike), engine rebuilds.... etc, plans and arrangements for the move (yikes), G-Lader Charger services and rebuilds, yada yada.

Very busy peeps....

Rods arrived today :D Hmmmmm Nice..... :)

BenS1

19-12-2003, 17:18

But if they are overly busy now then how will they cope when the kits are released?

What sort of torque are those rods rated at? Fitting them yourself?

Anyway, going way back to the original subject. The K04 produces upto around 285bhp on the large port engines, but not sure what boost that is at.

Cheers
Ben

ibizacupra

19-12-2003, 17:55

Originally posted by BenS1
But if they are overly busy now then how will they cope when the kits are released?

What sort of torque are those rods rated at? Fitting them yourself?

Anyway, going way back to the original subject. The K04 produces upto around 285bhp on the large port engines, but not sure what boost that is at.

Cheers
Ben

I don't know Ben.... If kits and fitting is sub'd to other companies like AutoT and other..... then the actual load might reduce. (might)

Expansion maybe.... when settled in the new premesis, which I sincerely hope for their sake goes well. Going to be a nightmare.

Dunno what torque, but sufficient I hope.

AutoT will be assisting in the Ibiza next stage after the g'box work. Getting some more parts in readyness tomorrow. I guess I had better book in with AutoT too, as thats another extremely busy company. :)

There was a guy running a 225 motor, K04'd on his MK2 Golf running Motech ecu. At the recent TSR day his car did 270atw! which is superb.

Bill

BenS1

20-12-2003, 00:28

Originally posted by ibizacupra

Dunno what torque, but sufficient I hope.

AutoT will be assisting in the Ibiza next stage after the g'box work. Getting some more parts in readyness tomorrow. I guess I had better book in with AutoT too, as thats another extremely busy company. :)

Bill

You don't know what torque rating the rods are? Surely thats one of the main specs they list?

AutoT are indeed VERY busy... booked my Ibiza in May for a Quaife and the earliest they could do was Decemeber (My car is with them now!).

Cheers
Ben

ibizacupra

20-12-2003, 06:28

Originally posted by BenS1
You don't know what torque rating the rods are? Surely thats one of the main specs they list?

AutoT are indeed VERY busy... booked my Ibiza in May for a Quaife and the earliest they could do was Decemeber (My car is with them now!).

Cheers
Ben

Rods won't be spec'd for torque, but tensile UTS.
Not got the figures for them either, but Forged Rods - lightweight - with ARP fasteners is more peace of mind than stock rods and stock rod bolts.

I'll see if I can find any UTS figures for comparisons between stock and Forged Eurospecsport ones.

Hope you enjoy your ATB Diff.... different world once you've had one of these. Both hands on the wheel tho.... especially when you're IHI'd :) :D

Dormouse

20-12-2003, 14:40

Originally posted by ibizacupra

Hope you enjoy your ATB Diff.... different world once you've had one of these. Both hands on the wheel tho.... especially when you're IHI'd :) :D

Roll-up Roll-up...half shafts, two for a pound, CV joints three for 50p, Get your resplining tool here ladies one-time offer only...:p :D

Dor.

Ibiza sport man

20-12-2003, 15:01

If you think SEAT/VW/Audi driveshafts are weak you should see Elise ones. Off a Metro I think. I've used much thicker shafts in my car but there's not much I can do about the CV joints. Still they are only cheap, £17. Pain to fit though.

Bernard

Dormouse

20-12-2003, 15:08

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
If you think SEAT/VW/Audi driveshafts are weak you should see Elise ones. Off a Metro I think.

Ah, there you go. didn't you know the design brief for the metro was to have a brown, beige or other 'old mans sock' coloured car and to drive it 15mph BELOW the speed limit? :p

Dor.

max_torque

21-12-2003, 10:23

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
If you think SEAT/VW/Audi driveshafts are weak you should see Elise ones. Off a Metro I think.

Bernard

Perhaps you should ditch that 1.8t and go for something more in keeping with the cars past then?

Turbocharged A series anyone?:p

It turns out Bernard that you know a guy i work with, he's called Andrew and has got the Orange S1 elise in Northampton, L18 ---, He says that you car is "pretty fast"!!

(i translated that to mean that it pissed off into the distance compared to his std car!):D

Dormouse

21-12-2003, 10:57

Originally posted by max_torque
Perhaps you should ditch that 1.8t and go for something more in keeping with the cars past then?

Turbocharged A series anyone?:p

Max_Torque is Meastro Man :p

Dor.

max_torque

21-12-2003, 11:47

Originally posted by Dormouse
Max_Torque is Meastro Man :p

Dor.

Thanks!:p

Not wanting to sound like a nerd, but actuall Maestro Turbo was a U series engine wasn't it?

A series turbo was only in the fantastic metro turbo, a rampant beast with 70 massive horses to spin it's wheels:jog:

Ibiza sport man

21-12-2003, 15:42

Ahhh, the Metro turbo, what a motor that was .......

Yes I know Andrew R. we went on a Lotus club run a few weeks back. He doesn't hang about on the narrow back lanes, only just squeezed past. But on the dual carraigeway he was dead meat.

So what's all this hysteria about the Garrett GT28RS turbo being whipped up in the states ? They seem to think it can produce loads of power with only slightly more lag than a K04. Look at the comparsion I have plotted out below. The K04 figures are from my car on the Emerald rollers.

http://www.auto-teknix.co.uk/power1s.jpg

Seems to make more power than the Jabba and at lower revs too. Might be American ponies rather than the real horses we use over here but they are claiming the figures are at the wheels. Note: I have used the higher octane results they have available.

Worth a look perhaps ?

Bernard

ibizacupra

21-12-2003, 21:14

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Ahhh, the Metro turbo, what a motor that was .......

Yes I know Andrew R. we went on a Lotus club run a few weeks back. He doesn't hang about on the narrow back lanes, only just squeezed past. But on the dual carraigeway he was dead meat.

So what's all this hysteria about the Garrett GT28RS turbo being whipped up in the states ? They seem to think it can produce loads of power with only slightly more lag than a K04. Look at the comparsion I have plotted out below. The K04 figures are from my car on the Emerald rollers.

http://www.auto-teknix.co.uk/power1s.jpg

Seems to make more power than the Jabba and at lower revs too. Might be American ponies rather than the real horses we use over here but they are claiming the figures are at the wheels. Note: I have used the higher octane results they have available.

Worth a look perhaps ?

Bernard

Only really meaningful if actual boost is the same across the turbo's on that comparison. I could run my as-is dyno on IHI (21psi) and have a completely different plot with much more low/mid torque - huge lump. Small IHI on Ibiza vs larger IHI on Golf have much different power deliveries. Small port? Large Port? all makes for different plots and power deliveries.

If I was'nt running IHI and Jabba, I would probably be looking at the GT28RS also.... Seems to be a good performer on paper.

regards
bill

Ibiza sport man

22-12-2003, 07:31

Good point Bill, APR don't seem to say what the boost is. To give a bit more data mine was running 17 psi. The GT28RS turbo kit is only just shipping and loads of people are waiting to fit it so I guess more figures from independent sources should become available over the next month or two.

Bernard

ibizacupra

22-12-2003, 10:18

Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Good point Bill, APR don't seem to say what the boost is. To give a bit more data mine was running 17 psi. The GT28RS turbo kit is only just shipping and loads of people are waiting to fit it so I guess more figures from independent sources should become available over the next month or two.

Bernard

I think a lad @ Stealth has one of these... going into his Corrado.. Replacing his blown K04. Mounted on a redrilled Jabba exhaust manifold. Looked the mutts :D
Going to be kick ar$e me thinks...

DTA ecu'd and mapped by Vince.

Bill

Nippa

27-12-2003, 17:53

Originally posted by max_torque
Thanks!:p

A series turbo was only in the fantastic metro turbo, a rampant beast with 70 massive horses to spin it's wheels:jog:

Nah, Non turbo Mg metro had 70bhp (apparently). Turbo version was more like 90bhp. Oh alright then, maybe 70bhp once it gets anywhere near the wheels, and you factor in for yet another buggered head gasket.
I had a rare ERA Mini Turbo for a while, which had essentially this engine in it. Made 94bhp :repuke: Was kinda nippy.. But power was intentionally held back to spare the gearbox. Handled fookin brilliantly though :D
I now have another Mini (A Series based) Turbo. Which knocks out about 140bhp. Thats a bit faster :)
Hardly drive that though. Have a 228bhp NB 1.8T as my regular hack now, which is great fun and is regularly seen annoying BMW drivers.
Sorry, No Seat 1.8T here.. i'll get my coat ;)

PS, great thread chaps :cheers: