View Full Version : Fancy a large ar$e turbo?
ibizacupra
29-12-2003, 21:28
Here's a nice one..
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-123&Category_Code=VVWTK
Going to be produce some nice power with minimal lag.
Tempting...
Consider $1.78 exchange rate... and this is £1348 for manifold and turbo with associated downpipe and oil/water pipes...
:)
driveforward
29-12-2003, 21:56
Shame that's not for TDI's.... :(
Whats ur day job Bill?
Robbing banks?
Drug dealer?
Pimp? (wiv them tints as well)
**** king?
Whatever it is Im in the wrong game;) :(
300 horses with modest boost - hmmmm, very nice. I'll be looking for this kind of upgrade in a couple of years time - wonder what'll be around then!!!
ibizacupra
30-12-2003, 14:21
Originally posted by RobDon
I'll be looking for this kind of upgrade in a couple of years time - wonder what'll be around then!!!
Mr Fusion... :p
ibizacupra
30-12-2003, 14:22
Originally posted by F2 Stu
Whats ur day job Bill?
Robbing banks?
Drug dealer?
Pimp? (wiv them tints as well)
**** king?
Whatever it is Im in the wrong game;) :(
A man can dream can't he?
Come on lucky lotto..... :)
Dont forget, vat, import duty, and finding someone to fit. But the Gt28rs is a mega turbo, may not fit the Ibiza as the Gt28r has only a nats cock's worth of space never mind the 28rs, impossible are fitting these kit using the gt28r (310bhp max turbo output) gt28rs (350bhp max turbo output). Nice
My e-05 has arrived today, the local Vw dealer is fitting it £150+vat, so not to exspensive. Then down to jabba for a re-map.
Shock_Xe
30-12-2003, 15:59
Originally posted by Madmile
Dont forget, vat, import duty, and finding someone to fit. But the Gt28rs is a mega turbo, may not fit the Ibiza as the Gt28r has only a nats cock's worth of space never mind the 28rs, impossible are fitting these kit using the gt28r (310bhp max turbo output) gt28rs (350bhp max turbo output). Nice
My e-05 has arrived today, the local Vw dealer is fitting it £150+vat, so not to exspensive. Then down to jabba for a re-map.
good price!
Originally posted by driveforward
Shame that's not for TDI's.... :(
Just get a good shop to make your a hybrid turbo. I still got mine siting on the shop bench... :(
ibizacupra
30-12-2003, 16:18
Originally posted by Madmile
Dont forget, vat, import duty, and finding someone to fit. But the Gt28rs is a mega turbo, may not fit the Ibiza as the Gt28r has only a nats cock's worth of space never mind the 28rs, impossible are fitting these kit using the gt28r (310bhp max turbo output) gt28rs (350bhp max turbo output). Nice
My e-05 has arrived today, the local Vw dealer is fitting it £150+vat, so not to exspensive. Then down to jabba for a re-map.
I would look to a GT28RS even on the Ibiza. I have seen this on a Jabba exhaust manifold on a naked engine.. (out of car.)
A no compromise rear engine mounting will be required to clear the downpipe outlet, but this is very doable, and won't squash the turbo outlet as is the case on mine as is. Might as well go full on no compromises if going this far at all.
What did the E05 cost in the end (duties paid and all that jazz)
Helps when you're VAT registered. :)
I look forward to hearing your results, as will a lot of other peeps me thinks. :D
Good luck.
regards
bill
ibizacupra
30-12-2003, 16:20
Originally posted by prc
Just get a good shop to make your a hybrid turbo. I still got mine siting on the shop bench... :(
I've also heard of a K04/T28 hybrid on a roller bearing casette........ which sounded sweet.
Turbo Dynamics I think...
some options appearing. :)
E-05 £900 with all costs, vat, import turbo, delivery.
Other parts req, 4 bar fpr £65, larger turbo intake pipe £35, Gaskets + studs £15. Lookers Vw will fit the turbo £150+vat. Mike @ jabba said stock injectors will go upto 270bhp. So remap £475. Guesstimated power 250-260bhp with 270-300lbs ft. Later add on poss injectors TT225, Milltek sports cat and Dp, cc or fmic. Total cost £1685 ish for complete fitted. Hoping to have it on and mapped next 2-3 weeks :cheers:
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I've also heard of a K04/T28 hybrid on a roller bearing casette........ which sounded sweet.
Turbo Dynamics I think...
some options appearing. :)
In my case I picked up a vnt-17 (off another 150 tdi) had a major overhaul done and added higher spec vnt-20 stuff on the cold side turbine. Should be good for up to 1.925bar peak 1.725bar constant (stock 150's run 1.65/1.50)
This is the 2nd one we've had done. The other has dyno'd +8Hp from the swap, without any other mod. The downside is that there's a bit more lag.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Mr Fusion... :p
Back to the Future?
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Here's a nice one..
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-123&Category_Code=VVWTK
Going to be produce some nice power with minimal lag.
Tempting...
Consider $1.78 exchange rate... and this is £1348 for manifold and turbo with associated downpipe and oil/water pipes...
:)
is that smaller than the IHI unit you have bill
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I've also heard of a K04/T28 hybrid on a roller bearing casette........ which sounded sweet.
Turbo Dynamics I think...
some options appearing. :)
I do believe we fitted one of them to a MK4 Golf just recently.
We source our turbos from Turbo Dynamics. They also build our hybrid K03 turbos for the PD.
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I would look to a GT28RS even on the Ibiza. I have seen this on a Jabba exhaust manifold on a naked engine.. (out of car.)
A no compromise rear engine mounting will be required to clear the downpipe outlet, but this is very doable, and won't squash the turbo outlet as is the case on mine as is. Might as well go full on no compromises if going this far at all.
What did the E05 cost in the end (duties paid and all that jazz)
Helps when you're VAT registered. :)
I look forward to hearing your results, as will a lot of other peeps me thinks. :D
Good luck.
regards
bill
How is the GT28RS better than the IHI? The power outputs appear to be roughly the same.
And if the GT28RS is better than the IHI and it fits the Jabba manifold then why aren't jabba using them instead of the IHI?
Cheers
Ben
Not 100% sure, but i think the IHI jabba use has over 350bhp max output. The gt28rs has 350bhp max. It uses the same principal internal components wise (roughly). The idea is to get a turbo matched to the power you require for lag/spool up times etc, so 270-280bhp use a gt28r, for 300-330bhp use a gt28rs, above this use a gt30r. If the e-05 does not go to plan i might just buy a gt28r/or a gt28rs kit as i will already have a remap from jabba it would just need some tweaking. But chances are it would just stay in place and another project would get the 350bhp treatment.:cheers:
ibizacupra
31-12-2003, 08:58
Originally posted by vibrio
is that smaller than the IHI unit you have bill
No... I think its larger I think. Intake certainly is on the one I saw in the flesh.
Ibiza runs the smaller IHI. Golfy runs the larger one.
Bill
ibizacupra
31-12-2003, 09:04
Originally posted by BenS1
How is the GT28RS better than the IHI? The power outputs appear to be roughly the same.
And if the GT28RS is better than the IHI and it fits the Jabba manifold then why aren't jabba using them instead of the IHI?
Cheers
Ben
GT28RS is'nt proven on Ibiza, and IHI is what they have developed over the many many many months...... in which time something else has popped up - GT28RS
GT28RS power outputs are atw figures being USA located. 350bhp atw. ~getting on for 400bhp flywheel
What the USA does'nt have is companies like Jabba who will do mapping on the OE ecu's, and they have to rely on peoples chips/reflashes to sort the software out to suit. Thankfully in the UK we are not short of a few peeps who can do this.
Personally I am looking forward to REVO's large turbo code and advanced tuning kit - So I can do my own work. :)
Bill
ibizacupra
31-12-2003, 09:12
Originally posted by Madmile
Not 100% sure, but i think the IHI jabba use has over 350bhp max output. The gt28rs has 350bhp max. It uses the same principal internal components wise (roughly). The idea is to get a turbo matched to the power you require for lag/spool up times etc, so 270-280bhp use a gt28r, for 300-330bhp use a gt28rs, above this use a gt30r. If the e-05 does not go to plan i might just buy a gt28r/or a gt28rs kit as i will already have a remap from jabba it would just need some tweaking. But chances are it would just stay in place and another project would get the 350bhp treatment.:cheers:
There is a customer Golf IV running 1.25bar boost and has 377bhp & 323lb/ft torque from the smaller IHI.
I run mine on 1.5 bar to get similar torque but less bhp from my small port motor. - Early non dbw Golf is largeport for info.
Remembering USA power is usually quoted atw.
What they're like to drive? Dunno.:dunno:
GT30R is sounding laggy from what I've seen. Big bang, but probably quite frustrating in real world driving.... that V-Tech feeling... wrong gear syndrome.
Personally I still prefer flexibility over raw top end power. Usually faster.
Bill
Originally posted by techie
They also build our hybrid K03 turbos for the PD.
Sounds quite interesting, but since it's not a VNT wouldn't you get some xtra lag?
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Remembering USA power is usually quoted atw.
Bill
I was told from Atp that the gross turbo output was refering to what bhp the turbo could run safely, so when i say 310bhp/28r, 350bhp/28rs this does not mean @ the wheels it means @ the fly. Atp Stage2 kit is 250-280bhp but this is fly using gt28r.:cheers:
ANDY BLUNT
31-12-2003, 15:06
Whats this E-05 boys i must have missed something:redface: and would it fit my car ?:cheers: Andy
The e-05 is a direct bolt on for k03 applications, you would need a few gaskets, and a samco air intake pipe from forge £140. Mine should be on asap, the next month or so, wait and see if mine has been worth the time and money as options seem to be growing on a daily basis.:cheers:
ANDY BLUNT
31-12-2003, 15:18
Many thanks and have a very happy new year:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers::drink: :drink: :drink: Andy
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Personally I am looking forward to REVO's large turbo code and advanced tuning kit - So I can do my own work. :)
Bill
Will the Revo code work with any turbo then (ie. IHI)?
What will you be trying to achieve with the tuning kit, more power? If so then why not just turn up the boost now? Mike said the IHIs are safe upto 2bat of boost!!! Obviously you'd have other problems on the car (Clutch/Gearbox etc) before then, but that applies to the Revo code too.
There is a customer Golf IV running 1.25bar boost and has 377bhp & 323lb/ft torque from the smaller IHI.
I run mine on 1.5 bar to get similar torque but less bhp from my small port motor. - Early non dbw Golf is largeport for info.
Do you know what would need to be changed to convert our smallport engines into large port engines? Is it a completely different engine, or can you just change a couple of bits (Cheaply?)?
Cheers
Ben
PS. Happy New Year. :cheers:
ibizacupra
01-01-2004, 12:51
Originally posted by Madmile
I was told from Atp that the gross turbo output was refering to what bhp the turbo could run safely, so when i say 310bhp/28r, 350bhp/28rs this does not mean @ the wheels it means @ the fly. Atp Stage2 kit is 250-280bhp but this is fly using gt28r.:cheers:
Thats not what gets posted on Vortex..... atw dyno's is what the guys are posting.
ibizacupra
01-01-2004, 13:01
Originally posted by BenS1
Will the Revo code work with any turbo then (ie. IHI)?
What will you be trying to achieve with the tuning kit, more power? If so then why not just turn up the boost now? Mike said the IHIs are safe upto 2bat of boost!!! Obviously you'd have other problems on the car (Clutch/Gearbox etc) before then, but that applies to the Revo code too.
Do you know what would need to be changed to convert our smallport engines into large port engines? Is it a completely different engine, or can you just change a couple of bits (Cheaply?)?
Cheers
Ben
PS. Happy New Year. :cheers:
The Advanced Tuning Kit, when eventually ready should allow mapping tools on the OEM ecu... which is something I look forward to. OBD programmed, no chips, and some nice programming tools.
2 bar boost has been run on mine (for a very short while) and it did go like stink.... really really aggressive. Transmission strain will be immense. Hopefully, if all goes to plan (parts now arrived) my g'box build will sort out some weakness's.
High boost is sort of propped up by the inherant backpressure of the smallport head... so I am not sure the smaller IHI will support higher boost on a largeport head. More airlfow of course. suck it and see me thinks.
Inlet manifold will need some work to port match to largeport head. (which I have ready). Rods will be installed during the rebuild for more peace of mind. Not my #1 priority tho... something to do during this year, after the transmission is done and debugged.
I may also revisit the turbo outlet pipe and downpipe at some point, fabricating my own rear engine mount as a no compromise outlet, unlike currently. Leons/Golf/Octavias don't have these hassles with different engine mounts. - Pesky Ibiza Syndrome :rolleyes:
Not long now for yours Ben eh? Excited yet?
Happy New Year to you too :):cheers:
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Thats not what gets posted on Vortex..... atw dyno's is what the guys are posting.
info@atpturbo.com
>Is the GT28r good for 310bhp
>crank power, or whp.
310 bhp @ the crank but we've seen a little more done on
100 octane.
This is what i wat told direct from ATP, there site says Gt28r 310bhp, Gt28rs 350bhp. Unless i have been given duff info direct from ATP.
ibizacupra
01-01-2004, 18:01
Originally posted by Madmile
info@atpturbo.com
>Is the GT28r good for 310bhp
>crank power, or whp.
310 bhp @ the crank but we've seen a little more done on
100 octane.
This is what i wat told direct from ATP, there site says Gt28r 310bhp, Gt28rs 350bhp. Unless i have been given duff info direct from ATP.
No probably not, but there are Vortexers posting dyno's at this level with atw figures...
Given the GT28RS's size I personally believe they are atw figures more than @ flywheel, comparing them to the IHI on mine... (which is just over 300bhp atw)
Whatever tho... its a stack of power :)
ANDY BLUNT
01-01-2004, 20:23
Oh this is looking good ,more choice and cheaper quotes.All i have to do is convince the wife :D :cheers: Andy.ps anyone got a spare room for rent if i need it.:p
Originally posted by ANDY BLUNT
ps anyone got a spare room for rent if i need it.:p
i think we are going to need a halfway house for divorced SEAT owners at this rate
Originally posted by ibizacupra
The Advanced Tuning Kit, when eventually ready should allow mapping tools on the OEM ecu... which is something I look forward to. OBD programmed, no chips, and some nice programming tools.
Sounds interesting, but maybe interesting is all it really is. I mean, what can you really gain from doing your own mapping? If its more power you want then just using the boost controller would give you that.
I guess you could adjust the'feel' of the map, eg. whether the power delivery is smooth and linear or a sudden kick up the backside... but thats about it?
Still, if its cheap enough then it wouldn't stop me having a play with mine too. (Hmmm, perhaps I should rephrase that! :redface:)
2 bar boost has been run on mine (for a very short while) and it did go like stink.... really really aggressive. Transmission strain will be immense. Hopefully, if all goes to plan (parts now arrived) my g'box build will sort out some weakness's.
High boost is sort of propped up by the inherant backpressure of the smallport head... so I am not sure the smaller IHI will support higher boost on a largeport head. More airlfow of course. suck it and see me thinks.
Inlet manifold will need some work to port match to largeport head. (which I have ready). Rods will be installed during the rebuild for more peace of mind. Not my #1 priority tho... something to do during this year, after the transmission is done and debugged.
I may also revisit the turbo outlet pipe and downpipe at some point, fabricating my own rear engine mount as a no compromise outlet, unlike currently. Leons/Golf/Octavias don't have these hassles with different engine mounts. - Pesky Ibiza Syndrome :rolleyes:
So you are going the largeport route then?
When you say "Inlet manifold will need some work to port match to largeport head", can't you just use the standard inlet manifold from one of the large port engines, or are they significantly different in other ways?
Not long now for yours Ben eh? Excited yet?
Excited yes, but have been for ages. Its the "not long now" bit I'm not sure about. Last I was told was the end of Jan which would be great, but if that really was the case then I'd of expected 'the' call by now to arrange exact details. Do you know if they have moved premises yet? If not then I reckon that'll delay thm by a month or more too. :(
Must have it before the summer, or I'll explode! ;)
So, if Revo are gonna be generic releasing code and tools for large turbos, are they also gonna be releasing some large turbo kits too? I know about the E05 kit, but thats a sort of medium turbo really, not what I'd call large. Do you know of any plans for Revo releasing a 28RS kit for the Ibiza?
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
Sounds interesting, but maybe interesting is all it really is. I mean, what can you really gain from doing your own mapping? If its more power you want then just using the boost controller would give you that.
I guess you could adjust the'feel' of the map, eg. whether the power delivery is smooth and linear or a sudden kick up the backside... but thats about it?
Still, if its cheap enough then it wouldn't stop me having a play with mine too. (Hmmm, perhaps I should rephrase that! :redface:)
So you are going the largeport route then?
When you say "Inlet manifold will need some work to port match to largeport head", can't you just use the standard inlet manifold from one of the large port engines, or are they significantly different in other ways?
Excited yes, but have been for ages. Its the "not long now" bit I'm not sure about. Last I was told was the end of Jan which would be great, but if that really was the case then I'd of expected 'the' call by now to arrange exact details. Do you know if they have moved premises yet? If not then I reckon that'll delay thm by a month or more too. :(
Must have it before the summer, or I'll explode! ;)
So, if Revo are gonna be generic releasing code and tools for large turbos, are they also gonna be releasing some large turbo kits too? I know about the E05 kit, but thats a sort of medium turbo really, not what I'd call large. Do you know of any plans for Revo releasing a 28RS kit for the Ibiza?
Cheers
Ben
I very much doubt REVO will offer a large turbo kit (300BHP+) for the ibiza, its just not worth it, too much power for too small a car = lots of cars in hedges.
dont expect to lay your hands on the advanced tuning kit either, it has too much technology for joe public (ie. you can **** your car up badly)
ibizacupra
02-01-2004, 09:32
Originally posted by BenS1
Sounds interesting, but maybe interesting is all it really is. I mean, what can you really gain from doing your own mapping? If its more power you want then just using the boost controller would give you that.
I guess you could adjust the'feel' of the map, eg. whether the power delivery is smooth and linear or a sudden kick up the backside... but thats about it?
Still, if its cheap enough then it wouldn't stop me having a play with mine too. (Hmmm, perhaps I should rephrase that! :redface:)
So you are going the largeport route then?
When you say "Inlet manifold will need some work to port match to largeport head", can't you just use the standard inlet manifold from one of the large port engines, or are they significantly different in other ways?
Excited yes, but have been for ages. Its the "not long now" bit I'm not sure about. Last I was told was the end of Jan which would be great, but if that really was the case then I'd of expected 'the' call by now to arrange exact details. Do you know if they have moved premises yet? If not then I reckon that'll delay thm by a month or more too. :(
Must have it before the summer, or I'll explode! ;)
So, if Revo are gonna be generic releasing code and tools for large turbos, are they also gonna be releasing some large turbo kits too? I know about the E05 kit, but thats a sort of medium turbo really, not what I'd call large. Do you know of any plans for Revo releasing a 28RS kit for the Ibiza?
Cheers
Ben
ATK is something for dealer/tuners, not DIYers, as Saul quite rightly says you can screw things up badly. I want one as I would like to continue development and do custom maps for installs with larger turbo's. I map using DTA systems now, so this is'nt a big leap, just another tool to use.
Jabba have'nt moved yet. Soon tho. (Feb possibly I heard)
They are also closed until 5th Jan. I am due to see them in a couple of weeks time to collect Golfy... and do the Ibiza RR run at Emerald (Dave Walker) on the same day.
There is some activity in the USA, from which I've only come across on VWVortex, not from REVO themselves re large turbo code. It will no doubt be Golf based given the volume of mods and market size in the USA. Leon owners may well benefit from some of it. ATP do hardware but need software to suit. REVO is an option if they have the time to develop the code. Give APR something else to think about. Their stage III kit has been caught up, and the advent of the GT28RS looks to be "turbo of the minute" - Have to watch and wait..... but we are all getting quite good at that these days :rolleyes: :p ;)
Largeport head is early non-dbw head and or atmo 20V head. Manifolds are the wrong way round for Ibiza/TT - but are ok for Leon/Golf/Octavia - have to get the die grinder out :D
regards
bill
Originally posted by Saul
dont expect to lay your hands on the advanced tuning kit either, it has too much technology for joe public (ie. you can **** your car up badly)
True, but then you can **** up your car with SPS3 too.
Jabba have'nt moved yet. Soon tho. (Feb possibly I heard)
Hmmmm, just as I thought. I suspect that we'll just get to the point where they have everything ready, and then they'll move, which will delay everything by a month or so. I seriously doubt I'll have the kit fitted before April now. :(
Ben
no.... Revo will only allow adjustments within 'safe' parameters
it might run like crap if you stuck it on timing 1 high boost 9 with tesco special fuel - but it won't do ireparable damage.
From what I understand of the Tuners kit it'd be a bit like having a fully mappable ECU. ie if you wanted you could request 2bar of boost (for about 30 seconds on a k03 :) )
Mark
Originally posted by m0rk
no.... Revo will only allow adjustments within 'safe' parameters
it might run like crap if you stuck it on timing 1 high boost 9 with tesco special fuel - but it won't do ireparable damage.
Mark
That wasn't my understanding. I remember when it was originally announced and they said that with SPS1 they would give you a safe reliable map, but if you wanted more power then you could have SPS3 which would allow you to set parameters outside of the safe range.
For example, if you set the timing and boost high when running on normal 95 octane fuel then isn't detonation likely?
I may be wrong, but I'm sure thats what the orignal posts said, and they warned that you could do damage.
I'll see if a search finds anything.
Cheers
Ben
that was originally correct, the SPS3 came with a warning, then it was retracted.
if you are stupid, no doubt you could mess it up, but then again - you can do that with a std car by ragging the crap out of it when cold, not topping up the oil etc.
"failure is just a matter of how stupid you can be" and unfortunatly some people are.
I've overheard a convo where a customer got the timing & boost confused..... ran badly, but then was sorted once it was set correctly.
I've just had a read of the Revo website and it clearly states that SPS3 cannot damage your engine, so I stand corrected.
It does mention that you can use SPS3 to increase timing/boost for trackdays when using octane booster and then set the timing/boost back to normal when you return to standard fuel so as to prevent detonation. To me this implies that it is possible to set the boost/timing so that detonation occurs with normal fuel... which WILL kill the engine!
Also, there website implies that the Advanced Tuning Kit IS for home users, not just dealers!
From there website:
What is the Advanced Tuning Kit?
The Advanced Tuning Kit is for the advanced enthusiast. It gives more control to the user than the variable SPS3 option. The BFV (boost frequency valve) is totally controlled by the user and timing restraints are removed. This kit gives the ability to run outside the safe limits of the hardware. The user is provided with a program to adjust the settings via a notebook computer or PDA. It is to be used for racing purposes only and Revo Technik will not be held responsible for the misuse or damage caused by its use.
There are a few other comments on the site which imply its for enthusiasts too.
Also this:
The advanced tuning kit will consist of a tuning CD, instruction manual and cable that works in conjunction with an SPS 3. It will give the user a greater degree of control, and will include some innovative data logging facilities.
This kit will give the ability to run outside the window of safe limits of the vehicle.
The user is provided with a program to adjust the settings via a notebook computer. It is to be used for racing purposes only, and will be accompaned by a comprehensive disclaimer.
The tuning software will be supported by Windows® 95 or greater.
Available soon.
Cheers
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
To me this implies that it is possible to set the boost/timing so that detonation occurs with normal fuel... which WILL kill the engine!
Cheers
Ben
Not really.. Most modern engines, 1.8T included have knock sensors. If any detonation occurs, the timing will be pulled back, regardless of where the SPS 3 settings are set to. So no engine damage should take place.
Exception to that rule being, if the engine is tuned to its limits, and breaks something before the knock sensors/ecu has time to do anything about it.
max_torque
02-01-2004, 19:59
Originally posted by Nippa
Not really.. Most modern engines, 1.8T included have knock sensors. If any detonation occurs, the timing will be pulled back, regardless of where the SPS 3 settings are set to. So no engine damage should take place.
Sorry but, YES really!
Knock control in a modern engine is a seriously complicated control system, who's to say that with your new ignition settings that you are still, for example, getting detonation within the std "knock windows" or if the retard verses engine cycles ramp rates are now not aggressive enough, or even too aggresssive. And even if the ignition is safe who's too say that you injectors can add enough fuel with the retarded ignition timing to prevent the turbo melting, or that the knock control strategy still has control of the boost etc etc etc!
In my opinion it's best left to the experts, after all, anyone ever measured their turbo speed after they have turned up the boost? You may well be able to run 1.5bar and the engine to live, but if the turbo is doing 20krpm over it's limits it will soon come spitting out the tail pipe in very small pieces, and the resulting oil leak into the turbine housing will overheat the cat and take that with it!:eek:
ibizacupra
03-01-2004, 10:25
Originally posted by BenS1
I've just had a read of the Revo website and it clearly states that SPS3 cannot damage your engine, so I stand corrected.
It does mention that you can use SPS3 to increase timing/boost for trackdays when using octane booster and then set the timing/boost back to normal when you return to standard fuel so as to prevent detonation. To me this implies that it is possible to set the boost/timing so that detonation occurs with normal fuel... which WILL kill the engine!
Also, there website implies that the Advanced Tuning Kit IS for home users, not just dealers!
From there website:
There are a few other comments on the site which imply its for enthusiasts too.
Also this:
Cheers
Ben
I would say given none of us have seen this yet, there is way to much speculation...
ATK should'nt be for DIYers IMHO as the risk of engine damage is going to be significantly higher.
If it is a tuning tool for mapping then great. Thats what I want.
Big Disclaimers on it none the less... Wonder why? :p
max_torque
04-01-2004, 12:33
I've just been having a sort out of all my various turbo bits, and i took this pic comparing the sizes of various garret turbo chargers' rotating assemblies. It's an interesting comparison of what actually a "big" turbo is all about:
From left to right:
1) T2 150 to 220 bhp. low lag
2) T3 200 to 260 bhp. starting to feel a bit laggy
3) T35 (Grp A cossie tarmac rally, T3 turbine, small T4 compressor) 300 to 350 bhp
4) T4 sodding great big wheels 450 bhp + (on a 2 litre engine don't expect any boost till about 5500rpm!)
For reference the std 1.8t internals have a compressor wheel similar in size to the T2, but the turbine is even smaller
cheers,
Paul
Originally posted by max_torque
Sorry but, YES really!
Knock control in a modern engine is a seriously complicated control system, who's to say that with your new ignition settings that you are still, for example, getting detonation within the std "knock windows" or if the retard verses engine cycles ramp rates are now not aggressive enough, or even too aggresssive. And even if the ignition is safe who's too say that you injectors can add enough fuel with the retarded ignition timing to prevent the turbo melting, or that the knock control strategy still has control of the boost etc etc etc!
In my opinion it's best left to the experts, after all, anyone ever measured their turbo speed after they have turned up the boost? You may well be able to run 1.5bar and the engine to live, but if the turbo is doing 20krpm over it's limits it will soon come spitting out the tail pipe in very small pieces, and the resulting oil leak into the turbine housing will overheat the cat and take that with it!:eek:
Now look, just cos you know loads more than me, does not mean you know more than me.. Oh, wait a sec, yeah, so anyway! ;) what I meant was, The ECU/Software 'should' intervene long before any engine damage occurs due to some 'optimistic' user settings on this SPS 3 gadget. After all, Revo don't want the inconvenience of customers moaning at them, waving legal papers around cos they grenaded their engines. But, yes, personally i'd much rather leave all the tuning to an expert like Jabba, rather than attempt to better it by myself with an SPS3 or similar.
While I am here.. I rather fancy one of these E-05 turbo's for my 1.8T Bug.. So I am very interested to hear how they work out. But £900 is a tad on the steep side. Mostly due to the import charges I guess. It is only £99 short of what Jabba charge for a far meatier IHI on it's own (Which I appreciate needs other bits to go with it, but still).
Any of you smart folk here know if any turbo companies here in the UK, such as Turbo Dynamics, Turbo Technics or similar would/could supply a hybrid turbo to similar specifications? I am guestimating that if it is sourced from a UK company, that it should cost rather a lot less.. And less potential warranty issues to boot. A hybrid K03/4 for decent money would be a big hit over here i'd have thought :thumbsup:
Ibiza sport man
04-01-2004, 15:48
Have a look at this link:
http://www.mjmturbos.com/K0406T3hybrid.htm
About $700 exchange (for a K04), can't go wrong with the dollar the way it is now.
The contact there is Jaime, he says it spools up at least as quick as a K04.
Bernard
Dont think it will bolt onto an ibiza as our turbo-downpipe is a 4 stud connection not 3, also looks like diff oil lines may be required. E-05 i have is direct bolt on as i have bought ibiza 20vt manifold to turbo and downpipe to turbo replacement gaskets and they are a perfect fit onto the E-05. The only issue is the Intake pipe but ecodetuning (eurospec agents) have told me the Samco intake pipe fits from the golf mk4 1.8t 20v, and leon 20vt samco pipe is the same fitment as Golf so its looking good.
Shock_Xe
04-01-2004, 16:33
the turbo from mjm that bolts onto the ibiza is the k04-01 here (http://www.mjmturbos.com/K0401.htm)
Ibiza sport man
04-01-2004, 16:35
No I agree it not a direct bolt on, but hey what's the problem with a bit of work :-)
Bernard
Shock_Xe
04-01-2004, 17:08
Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
No I agree it not a direct bolt on, but hey what's the problem with a bit of work :-)
Bernard
can be alot more than what its worth both financially and work involved. I think Redman on here has done it and wouldnt recomend it again. PM him and see what he says
Ibiza sport man
04-01-2004, 17:20
OK, thanks for that, I've mailed him :-)
Bernard
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
No I agree it not a direct bolt on, but hey what's the problem with a bit of work :-)
Bernard [
I agree, people have to try options, its a shame it costs £'s to find out, but if we all stuck to what we had (k03'd ibiza's) then 200bhp would be the norm.:cheers:
Madmile,
...appreciate you're busy mate but pls keep us all posted on your turbo developments - I for one am itching to start ordering new bits and pieces.
What was your shopping list / cost look like so far again?
Cheers,
A
Basically the stumbling block at the moment is the Air intake pipe, as one is not available for the ibiza at the moment you have to modify a golf mk4 1.8t 20v one. Not sure how much modding required. The turbo is a direct bolt on, required are tt225 injectors 4 bar fpr, a uprated dp, or sports cat and dp. And some kind of more effcient intercooler. Power exspectations 260bhp/280lbs ft. I'll keep you informed with progress and probs as they happen.:cheers:
Costs depending how far you go, £1800-£2500 roughly.
Turbo £900
4 bar £65
Injec £200-250 not 100% sure. This spec prob about 245bhp-255bhp
add an exhaust (which most of us have already) and sprts ct and dp, and more effcient I/C exspect 255-275bhp. Rumours from the US are that the Golf with this turbo spec make 280bhp safely.
Dont take this as gospel but its all i have to go on from diffrent sites and speaking to diff tuners.
Originally posted by Madmile
Basically the stumbling block at the moment is the Air intake pipe, as one is not available for the ibiza at the moment you have to modify a golf mk4 1.8t 20v one. Not sure how much modding required. The turbo is a direct bolt on, required are tt225 injectors 4 bar fpr, a uprated dp, or sports cat and dp. And some kind of more effcient intercooler. Power exspectations 260bhp/280lbs ft. I'll keep you informed with progress and probs as they happen.:cheers:
Cheers! Glad someone is going to test the water on this one, I've been there before and it can get scary/expensive :(
Did u get my pm btw?
Cheers,
A
Added some extra info for you. Any questions just ask.
Shock_Xe
05-01-2004, 19:58
Originally posted by Madmile
Added some extra info for you. Any questions just ask.
share?
ibizacupra
05-01-2004, 22:11
Originally posted by Madmile
Basically the stumbling block at the moment is the Air intake pipe, as one is not available for the ibiza at the moment you have to modify a golf mk4 1.8t 20v one. Not sure how much modding required. The turbo is a direct bolt on, required are tt225 injectors 4 bar fpr, a uprated dp, or sports cat and dp. And some kind of more effcient intercooler. Power exspectations 260bhp/280lbs ft. I'll keep you informed with progress and probs as they happen.:cheers:
Costs depending how far you go, £1800-£2500 roughly.
Turbo £900
4 bar £65
Injec £200-250 not 100% sure. This spec prob about 245bhp-255bhp
add an exhaust (which most of us have already) and sprts ct and dp, and more effcient I/C exspect 255-275bhp. Rumours from the US are that the Golf with this turbo spec make 280bhp safely.
Dont take this as gospel but its all i have to go on from diffrent sites and speaking to diff tuners.
4 bar fpr on ibiza?
Did'nt have a lot of luck on sustained high speed load and maintaining that 4 bar fpr @ the rail on mine.... Bruntingthorpe meltdown on #3 earlier this year. Jabba's kit now includes an uprated fuel pump.
Better safe than sorry. Another weakling part as fitted to Ibizas :(
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-019&Category_Code=VVWFE
Link to a poss drop in fuel pump.
5 bar Fpr are available from neuspeed.
Here's another turbo kit for the 1.8T, a Garret GT28R roller bearing, direct bolt-on kit:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/kits/kit_VW_18T_Transverse.htm#
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/turbo_kits/1.8VWGTI_Large.jpg
£1117.54 in our money, apparently the GT28R is an awesome conversion (apparently).
Ibiza sport man
08-01-2004, 20:15
Some jokers wanted £1800 for that kit at the Autosport show today.
It's not roller bearing though.
hat I can't understand is how come it only makes 225 BHP when the GT28RS that ATP sell is the same turbo but with a slightly bigger compressor housing and they claim well over 300 for it ? Must be much higher boost I guess.
Bernard
max_torque
08-01-2004, 20:29
YUK!
that is without doubt the worst turbo intake pipe i've ever seen!
it's just horrible having a 90 deg bend just in front of the compressor inducer, because all the air ends up over the far side of the pipe and the compressor only ends up "gulping" from half it's intake area. What you want if you have to run a precompressor intake with a tight bend is a "nasa" elbow. I developed one for the Twin turbo Black label Bentley arnarge which packages a 90 deg turn into a 60mm gap between the compressor entry and the radiator pack, but only looses 0.3kpa pressure and maintains a 97% utilisation of compressor inducer area.
basically they are just a sort of flatened bellmouth that allows air to be sucked into the compressor from all sides, but only fed from a pipe on one side at 90 deg to the compressor.
The Gt28r is a roller ball bearing turbo and rated to 310bhp@crank.
The Gt28rs is also a roller ball bearing turbo but rated to 350bhp @ crank. The kit shown is the Gt28r Garrett kit same as the Atp stage 2 kit basically. I am 90% sure i am right. Check Atp tuning and look at Garrett turbo specs.:cheers:
I also think they mean 225bhp @ wheels m8 not crank.
Originally posted by max_torque
basically they are just a sort of flatened bellmouth that allows air to be sucked into the compressor from all sides, but only fed from a pipe on one side at 90 deg to the compressor.
Pic/Sketch/rough arse pic please
Ibiza sport man
09-01-2004, 07:36
Most probably is at the wheels because they are showing the base power as 142. Having said that the GT28RS is quoted as 300 at the wheels too. Maybe that crap inlet is strangling it.
So what's a roller ball bearing then ? I always thought you had one or the other. Garrett only describe it as ball type.
Max_Torque - was that a typo "Twin turbo Black label Bentley arnarge" should it have been barge ;-)
Bernard
The Gt range is the same as Jabba's IHI subaru turbo's in terms of construction ie ball bearinged.:cheers:
ibizacupra
09-01-2004, 21:30
Originally posted by Madmile
The Gt range is the same as Jabba's IHI subaru turbo's in terms of construction ie ball bearinged.:cheers:
Only in it that they're both roller bearings... IHI also make a non roller bearing range.
Very different approaches in actual designs between Garrett and IHI.
The point i was trying to make, not so well was the Gt turbo is Roller'd and the turbo jabba uses on the new ihi kits is also roller'd.:cheers:
So i hear.
max_torque
10-01-2004, 10:32
Originally posted by Ibiza sport man
Max_Torque - was that a typo "Twin turbo Black label Bentley arnarge" should it have been barge ;-)
Bernard
ER.... YES! they are big cars, but i still had one of my best motoring moments in one!. Picture the scene, 2 lanes, traffic lights for a pedestrian crossing that are red, i'm sat in a development arnarge, when, with a loud bass line and booming tail pipe / hissing dump valve, a very lairy neon yellow RS turbo with a couple of baseball cap toting t**ts in pulls up along side. They notice the car (how could you miss a car that big!) and also notice that it's being driven by a young guy. Anyway, they are reving their engine, while the bentley just sits there idling (at only 500rpm!). The lights go green, and...... all i need to do is stick the loud pedal into the wilton, sit back, and watch the RS turbo disapear in my rear view mirror, because the early development cars would put in a genuine 5.2 sec 0-62, on 95 ron with absoultely no effort required by the driver.
About 5 miles later i was sat at another set of lights when they caught up, this time they didn't want to mess with the me!:D
Also if you were to turn off the traction, stick it in drive, left foot brake then floor the accelerator you could pull the biggest burnout launch the world has ever seen, although you had to watch out for the back end slipping off down the camber as the rear wheels lit up:p