View Full Version : RR At Powerstation 19/1/02
chungster
19-01-2002, 17:57
Well, since no-one's posted anything, I think I'll start a thread!
Firstly, like to thank Bill for organising this, it was great together of club/forum members nevertheless.
But....I have to say...what a bloody interesting and amusing day it turned out to be!
Basically...if we took their RR as gospel, that it MUST be right....then no "210" or "195" chipped cars out there does it at all!
True, we had 2 std Ibiza's run 159 and 152 @ Flywheel...but all the chipped ones were either way off or off their respective claim full stop.
I'm not gonna say anything about the Oettinger chip...what its supposed to do or actually does...mine on the day apparently (well, thats what the print out says) 188bhp @ Flywheel, 145bhp @ wheels, and just 202 lb/ft of torque. Bang on 20bhp and roughly 20lb/ft DOWN on my PE dyno run in November.
But the funniest thing were the results of the other chippers. Apart from Jabbasport, who got 197bhp (but their demo has a few more bits).....the other tuners were no where near.
This is from what I recall: APR 164bhp, Upsolute 177bhp, AmD - not sure, had a problem "apparently"..I say this because on the way home, me and Dave had a bit if a laugh...and if his car has a a problem, then mine is totally buggered!!!
All these are on "210" or "195" conversions.
Each owner says the car can't be producing that, cos its bloody fast on the road.
Chipped Leons were producing on or less than std!!
BUT....one shining star...Fastshow...had 190bhp from his std Leon 20VT. His std chip is available for 500 quid if anyone wants it!! :D
I'm sure lots more people will post on this.
Well, its certainly raised alot of eyebrows, thats for sure!! hehe
Lee
PS: Dialynx TT with 600bhp did 360bhp!!!! Oooops!
My only comment would be (and yes you will not get any more than this) is.
Can we find another set of rollers please :)
On a brighter note, it was great to see you all turn up, I think if anything else we did all have a laugh.
Thanks Bill
chungster
19-01-2002, 18:12
You went off early Lee??
You should have stayed to check out the "BulletTT"...flames and neat petrol being thrown out the back.
Yes, I think I agree with you there.
Anyway, just to clarify things, Bill got the same as me (near identical machines) but Petrolhead Paul and BenS1 both had an extra 10bhp on me and Bill's for some unknown reason (identical spec too)...All 4 are Oettinger 210 conversions.
Not too worried about it all, as I know what the car is capable off.
All the results and Mag exposure will be coming shortly. (Can't wait)
Oh...the club will be appering the Cheltenham's local mag too! what a result!! hehe
Never thought a RR day would turn into a near-comedy show!!
Lee
Lee
It was good, I was on Invicta FM at 07:00 pimping the RR and Site, then at 07:30 I was on Radio 1 doing the same.
Then I was told to ring the local newspaper as they wanted to talk, and then they turned up and took lots of photos and done an interview.
PVW mag was there too.
Its done absoloutly no harm for this site or the drivers club.
At least some good came out of it :)
chungster
19-01-2002, 18:30
I just hope people/customers of all the chippers take this with a pinch of salt.
Do not take the results of this day as a true indication of what each chip does. Best thing is to get a demo drive from each organisation..in real world conditions. It is an interesting comparison amongst various chippers, but even this I'm a little sceptical of.
I'm always offering people at meets passenger rides in my car if they want to know how the Oettinger 210 conversion fairs against a std version.
RR days I always take as a bit of fun....cos at the end of the day, who gives a damn about figs if you yourself feel the car is what you hoped it would be..whether std or chipped.
Where is everyone else??
Lee
Kev Hall
19-01-2002, 18:45
Well I went down to watch and had a quality day, good to meet everyone.
Anyone for a 50k audi tt flamethrower... nice!
IMHO it would be benefical to do a comparison at a vw specialist, perhaps talking more time over each car, making sure they are all the same temp. and done the same.
Standard leon 190bhp, chipped at 181bhp
Standard Ibiza 159bhp, chipped one 163bhp
WTF, get them on the road together and the chipped ones would shit all over the standard ones... I've been in both of those chipped ones in the last two days and they are both much faster than standard.
I think the chipped torque igures were more, but even so... what's going on!
Anyway, quality day. See you all soon. Cheers for the lift Mark!:cheers:
Kev Hall
19-01-2002, 18:51
Chungsters hit the nail on the head... take it with a pinch of salt, get in the cars and have a go.
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 18:57
Originally posted by Cupraman
My only comment would be (and yes you will not get any more than this) is.
Can we find another set of rollers please :)
On a brighter note, it was great to see you all turn up, I think if anything else we did all have a laugh.
Thanks Bill
There will be another RR session organised for March at a different venue for 15 cars max and £10/car. I will post details when they are firmed up.
The PS dyno day was a busy one, and I hoped everyone enjoyed themselves.
The spread of readings was strage at times, where factory cars produced factory figures pretty closely.
Not conclusive unfortunately, and for Oettinger cars, not bad.... for a couple of guys. (Ben, Paul) - Why a +10bhp to 12bhp gain for them over mine and Lee's? I don't know. Fueling on mine was rich, where it was lean on the others..? Why? Same conversion? Why? Why? Why?
Jabbasports new development Ibiza was very good. Well sorted, and still only a toddler in development terms and time also. There is more to come from that little baby.
Upsolute Ibiza had a strange shape dyno plot, and there is some work to be done on that map to sort it out.
APR chipped Golf and Ibiza (Sauls - lucky b'stard :D) were well down, even on the Oettinger ones.... Why? The Golf had a before and after dyno on Stealth Racings own rollers, and had over 220bhp, but did'nt get anywhere near that on PS rollers.
My conclusion is, that the standard cars made standard power because they run lower boost, and the inlet charge temps do not climbs as high or as fast during the power run, compared to the chipped ones.
Chipped ones (double the boost of standard typically), running with minimal intercooler cooling, and relatively long power runs, heat up the intake charge faster and combustion temperatures climb rapidly. The dramatic effect of this being the high temps, then causing the ecu to wind back on ignition timing and boost to maintain a safe engine. High cylinder temps and high inlet charge temps will cause these losses seen today.
On the road driving by the "butt dyno" proves this. A chipped Leon/Ibiza/Golf, will far outperform a standard car. On the RR though the heat cannot get away.
Power Stations RR is accurate I believe, as the standard cars show by their results. What they don't have for us 1.8T VAG based guys, is an adequate fan cooling system for our intercoolers. Combine that with what could be excessively long power runs, causing very high cylinder temps, then you get the strange results seen today. standard cars being either very close or even outperforming modded ones.
What is'nt explained is the differences between 4 x identical cars on the same rollers on the same day. Oettinger Ibiza 210's I refer to.
The next RR session will be at a VAG specialist, with full cooling on intercoolers, and power runs that take approx 20 seconds, so heatsoak should be far less an issue. Full datalogging of induction temps and between run calibrations will be done. There will be only 15 cars for it as it wil take considerably longer to do.
You might well read into things that the APR chipped cars would have in fact been the most powerful/torquey in other conditions, where the intake temps were not getting so high. They would look to have suffered the most form this, where you could read that they would have been running the higher and more aggressive boost/ignition/map settings. In the real world ideal RR conditions, I believe the APR and Jabbasport cars to be the most powerful in reality.
Not conclusive... BUT why do 4 x Oettinger Ibiza's have over 10bhp difference between them?
this won't be the last post on this I'm sure. :D
regards
Bill
Lee, I will take you up on the offer of the ride tommorow and see what the difference is between chipped and standard!
It must be pretty shitty for all you lot that have paid out a bit of money on the chips and thought that you had the power and it would appear for what ever reason that this is not so...never mind I am sure that the debate will go on and on and on and on and well you get the picture!
Good for a bit of publicity though and I guess that it spices things up for a possible return at another RR at some stage in the year and in fact today I got an invite from the Corrado Club of Uk to one in Leeds!
See ya tommorow if ya are going.
Si
No mines standard and I am still going for the Upsolute Chip!
cordobabrendy
19-01-2002, 19:05
petrol ratings may make a bit of a difference too, chipped cars are optomised for higher ron, if they were chipped and ran on good ol sainsburies 95 then theres room for error.
Have to say the results you post are pretty much what I said would be the case.
The one RR I am happy with is PE still, but its expensive. The Scooby boys had their day there today.
PS run the cars too hard on the rollers and get the heat soak and not enough cooling IMHO
If I believed their RR I would be in a law suit with Prodrive twice over.
Jonathan
chungster
19-01-2002, 19:33
Don't know about yours Bill, but the operator said my car ran like a dream...as sweet as a but-naked Briotney Spears or something.
His own words to me were "what chip/conversion you got here..its spot on, lovely with pukka fuelling and mixture..Nice one.
he said the diff between mine and Ben/Puals may well be due to drag losses (only 3bhp seperated our at wheel figs, which you like to use anyway right). Tyre pressure is one source of this...and if i was running incorrect psi, then an easy 10bhp can be lost. But the chap liked it...
I'm not reading too much into mine...i said from day one I know what the car can do...how it goes on the road against others...
And don't forget, all the Upsolute 212/240 peeps got NOWHERE NEAR those!! Colin from Club GTI was not a happy chappie with that!! Nor was that Ibiza geezer who got 177.
The Leons do seem to have some other gremlin not found on our Ibiza's. A couple of theories were mentioned, and these I'm sure will be looked into.
CupraSi...I'll be there tomorrow to give you a demo.
Steve3691....sorry mate, forgot to give you a demo run too. Next time yeah.
And a final word on PS....I didn't understand why they had to run our cars like that...full on run to settle it down...then a full one again (when the turbo is smoking) for the true run.
Strange way of doing it if you ask me.
All the info is out there now.....no hiding from anyone. And all i can say is.....UK RR figs are good for forum/pub discussions..and not much else.
I've got less power than Fastshow's std Leon apparently, so I'll be running against him at Santa Pod next weekend to see if he'll trounce me 210.
Anybody else wanna have a pop at a 185bhp Ibiza??? Easy picking me......hehehe
Lee
PS: Better watch out for those Saxo/Nova boys now I guess.
:D
chungster
19-01-2002, 19:36
Hey jon,
Well guess how many law suits will be filed if all the owners believed todays figs??
I'll be starting up a Law firm specialising in RR fig disputes that's for sure!!
:D :D :D
"run too hard".....exactly what each of the tuners (APR/JABBA/Upsolute) said!!
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 19:38
Originally posted by Chins
Have to say the results you post are pretty much what I said would be the case.
The one RR I am happy with is PE still, but its expensive. The Scooby boys had their day there today.
PS run the cars too hard on the rollers and get the heat soak and not enough cooling IMHO
If I believed their RR I would be in a law suit with Prodrive twice over.
Jonathan
Another RR is already being organised at a VAG forced induction specialist for 15 cars & £10/car
Date and details to be announced, This will be a better, more detailed measurement of the chipped cars and their performances.
For factory cars, PS does read the right numbers. Proves to me how marginal the intercooling is on these standard cars. Adding more boost just highlights these weaknesses. Add to that the (too) long power runs, and cylinder heatsoak also robs power by the bucket load.
PS have cooling fans for front mounted intercoolers, where the VAG 1.8T's have side mounted ones tucked up under wheel arches. Airflow is crap.
regards
Bill
chungster
19-01-2002, 19:42
Bill,
what was your at wheel output today?
I got 145, Paul got 142 (yet had extra 12bhp on me at flywheel, we both run 7x17 wheels) and Ben got 147 I think.
All very close to be honest.
I'll be checking me ttyre pressures tomorrow to see if it was out by much.
Lee
Count me in for that Bill
Bill, Just to echo what others have said...
Thanks for organizing it...great day out and nice to put some faces to the Nicknames....(me starts to regret mine now)...pehaps we could do with badges next time ;)
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 20:02
Originally posted by chungster
[B]Don't know about yours Bill, but the operator said my car ran like a dream...as sweet as a but-naked Briotney Spears or something.
Bill>> He said mine ran rich. Why the difference?<<
His own words to me were "what chip/conversion you got here..its spot on, lovely with pukka fuelling and mixture..Nice one.
Bill>>Not the case with mine - running rich he said - SAME Chips - WHY?<<
he said the diff between mine and Ben/Puals may well be due to drag losses (only 3bhp seperated our at wheel figs, which you like to use anyway right). Tyre pressure is one source of this...and if i was running incorrect psi, then an easy 10bhp can be lost. But the chap liked it...
Bill>>At the wheels figures is the comparison I am going to look at - yep!<<
I'm not reading too much into mine...i said from day one I know what the car can do...how it goes on the road against others...
Bill>>Bens and Pauls go better than yours or mine though. You can't be happy with that :D<<
And don't forget, all the Upsolute 212/240 peeps got NOWHERE NEAR those!! Colin from Club GTI was not a happy chappie with that!! Nor was that Ibiza geezer who got 177.
Bill>>Upsolute graph for the Ibiza was horrible.. That was'nt the RR that was the map.. It would have read higher figures no doubt with shorter power runs and more cooling, but the map needs some more work yet<<
The Leons do seem to have some other gremlin not found on our Ibiza's. A couple of theories were mentioned, and these I'm sure will be looked into.
Bill>>Surging etc. Hmmm. Nasty fault that<<
All the info is out there now.....no hiding from anyone. And all i can say is.....UK RR figs are good for forum/pub discussions..and not much else.
Bill>>No except when they are yours eh Lee on PE results! :D :D)<<
I've got less power than Fastshow's std Leon apparently, so I'll be running against him at Santa Pod next weekend to see if he'll trounce me 210.
Bill>>More torque though, and less weight.. If he beats you, you're a crap driver! :D lol (JOKE)<<
Anybody else wanna have a pop at a 185bhp Ibiza??? Easy picking me......hehehe
Bill>>Yep! ME. See you on track.... hehe :D<<
Lee
PS: Better watch out for those Saxo/Nova boys now I guess.
Bill>>For all your sarchasm Lee, BOTH yours and my car produced the same figures more or less on the day... and BOTH of us are over 10bhp down on 2 identical "210"'s. This difference is too high.<<
My open question would be...
"Would I use PS again for another 1.8T VAG day?"
My answer would have to be no, unless they had better cooling for our cars, and faster power runs.
Bill
Bill
PE also use front mounted fans, and there doesnt really seem to be a major problem in that. Scooby have top mounts, yet PE use front fans for them as well. Its the way they run them, and potentially their software.
If your organising a day, just dont use AMD. Their Rollers win an award as the worst in the country.
Jonathan
coupe-sport
19-01-2002, 20:04
Interesting to see all the runs today - and very interesting to see the figures. Would agree with all above having posted a 214BHP run !!!
I was the only TT (apart from the Dialynx) to do a proper run - Well i say proper, One big cooling fan pointing at the radiator - no air going to the intercoolers in the side vents ! A nice bit of heatsoak as they tried to get the car to sit on the rollers properly without the fan running, and then the power run done in 5th to try and limit the torque transfer....
Previous runs at AmD and PE have produced 263 / 273 / 278 BHP respectively and since my car peaks at 6300 RPM i'm suprised at the max power reading at the power station at just over 5k !
Anyway - a good day, and i'll be interested in another one :-)
cheers
James.
Impossible
19-01-2002, 20:13
Yes .. was bit of a weird day, All the tuners where talking about the way PS was loading the cars up, on the rollers, I think they where doing it correctly for stock cars which they where looking in there little manual on what the right amount of load should be aplyed. but with chipped car the load amount has to be changed, weather it's more or less I'am not sure, This is a completely different RR setup to the one we use.
Shame mossers car had problems still, with the LPG company, Wayne's Ibiza 177 Bhp was only down 10Bhp on the Ottinger chips on the day, (Factory figures,Oettinger 210??, Wayne 195).
Also sorry about our car (Golf 1.8T), made 90Whp at 2000rpm, then the igntion coil went or something in the eletircs, sure to cost lots of money on monday.
Mic
Thanks for the day Bill,..
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 20:16
Originally posted by chungster
Bill,
what was your at wheel output today?
I got 145, Paul got 142 (yet had extra 12bhp on me at flywheel, we both run 7x17 wheels) and Ben got 147 I think.
All very close to be honest.
I'll be checking me ttyre pressures tomorrow to see if it was out by much.
Lee
My wheels figures were 137.5bhp
The lowest of us all by nearly 10!. I rest my case. (51 bhp drag output)
My car is NOT right, whatever SHIT RSD come up with.
Your drag output was only 40.5, so unless you are running on 40psi tyre pressures.... you have a super efficient g'box.
Bill
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 20:24
Originally posted by Impossible
Yes .. was bit of a weird day, All the tuners where talking about the way PS was loading the cars up, on the rollers, I think they where doing it correctly for stock cars which they where looking in there little manual on what the right amount of load should be aplyed. but with chipped car the load amount has to be changed, weather it's more or less I'am not sure, This is a completely different RR setup to the one we use.
Shame mossers car had problems still, with the LPG company, Wayne's Ibiza 177 Bhp was only down 10Bhp on the Ottinger chips on the day, (Factory figures,Oettinger 210??, Wayne 195).
Also sorry about our car (Golf 1.8T), made 90Whp at 2000rpm, then the igntion coil went or something in the eletircs, sure to cost lots of money on monday.
Mic
Thanks for the day Bill,..
Thanks Mic.
sorry the day did'nt prove to be as conclusive as hoped.
I think you will need to speak to Alex about the ibiza map, as the shape is'nt too good.
My opinion on the Oettinger is that it is a modest conversion and not a max'd out one... running 12psi boost where others run 14 or more. Today probably showed this modesty in that the heatsoak did'nt rise as high for them as other higher boosted cars on the day, so did show increases over stock. They run modest pressures, and probably do so with their 3 year warranty in mind !
I would expect the tuners chipped cars results to actually run in reverse order on the road, where APR would probably give highest gains, followed by Upsolute and Oettinger. I did'nt include Jabbasport in this, as they do not have off the shelf chips but dedicated for YOUR car chips, mapped on your engine. Given their charge cooling on their Ibiza, they would have the highest power of everyone I believe.
I hope you get your Golf fixed.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 20:27
Originally posted by Chins
Bill
PE also use front mounted fans, and there doesnt really seem to be a major problem in that. Scooby have top mounts, yet PE use front fans for them as well. Its the way they run them, and potentially their software.
If your organising a day, just dont use AMD. Their Rollers win an award as the worst in the country.
Jonathan
hehe.. No it won't be AmD..
Jabbasport will be the venue.
Proper dyno cell with 4WD by March also :D
Looking forward to it already.
regards
Bill
coupe-sport
19-01-2002, 20:32
Just a big pair of cooling fans would be nice !
cheers
James.
firstly, cheers bill for a cracking day,thing i can't figure out is why a n/a 1.8 16v with mild modifications(filter/de cat) has better power than a 2ltr 16v with head and cams,im not bragging or taking the piss but there must be something up with
A the 2ltr16v
B the 1.816v(i hope not)
C the rollers
i was well happy with the run my car had ,i was stood in the HAPPY CORNER all day .
OH YES bill you're in this months pvw at the vr6 track day:)
Impossible
19-01-2002, 20:40
Thanks Bill, Weyne did say that this Ibiza was running poor on the way to the dyno:( so will be looking at that.
Heat soak was a big factor, very much so on the Ibiza..they have a very small intercooler which there was no air be forced though, if the fan had been adjusted for each car would have been better.
PS seem not to be in the VAG performance, so was not aware of intercoolers being on different sides of the cars Ibiza/Leon, if they where aware of an intercooler was fitted to these cars,
Has one of the TT owners said there was no air even reaching the intercooler on these cars.
Very strange that the 600Bhp TT only got 360something.
Mic
coupe-sport
19-01-2002, 21:00
The TT's (well the 225 ones) run I/C's on both sides of the cars - the standard fan their was only useful for pushing air through the radiator so the IC's weren't doing anything :mad:
cheers
James.
PS - And thanks Bill :)
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 21:05
Originally posted by Impossible
Very strange that the 600Bhp TT only got 360something.
Mic
The 600bhp figure apparently came from an engine dyno, where it ran straight through 3" exhaust pipes with no silencers, and the charge cooling system ran total loss hosepipe in pouring out.
The car now has an amazingly small 2.25" exhaust system with silencer. Going to be changed however. It has choked up the motor. The chargecooling is also max'd out in the installation now it has to recirculate the water within its radiator system. It big, but not big enough perhaps.
Its development has'nt finished yet.
Its figures were 366.5bhp @ 5100rpm and 446lb/ft torque @ 3040rpm. Its a monster though!
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 21:06
Originally posted by coupe-sport
The TT's (well the 225 ones) run I/C's on both sides of the cars - the standard fan their was only useful for pushing air through the radiator so the IC's weren't doing anything :mad:
cheers
James.
PS - And thanks Bill :)
No problem.
At Jabbasport it will be sorted for sure.
regards
Bill
In preparation for any future RR events, could someone post any tips on the correct way to 'set the car up' ...
I didn't realise tyre pressure made any difference, although I gather the drag value takes this into account (which reminds me - I haven't checked the pressures since I got the car 3500 miles ago )
How should the engine be warmed up, we nipped down to town in mine before my run, should I have just let it idle up to temp without using the turbo ??
Would it be worth spraying freezer spray into the intercooler duct before/during run ??
Cheers for organising the day bill, good to see everyone again :)
As for my car, well i know it produces 163BHP at 4500RPM, so as its peak is at 5800-6000 RPM, i would imagine i would be spot on with some decent fans (and a half decent operator who knows VAG cars)
Operators comments on mine "I think the ignition is knocking back" after 3 loading runs with no fan??????????
As DJawol will tell you, it aint 163BHP
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 21:20
Originally posted by Saul
Cheers for organising the day bill, good to see everyone again :)
As for my car, well i know it produces 163BHP at 4500RPM, so as its peak is at 5800-6000 RPM, i would imagine i would be spot on with some decent fans (and a half decent operator who knows VAG cars)
Operators comments on mine "I think the ignition is knocking back" after 3 loading runs with no fan??????????
As DJawol will tell you, it aint 163BHP
I know mate.
I think the APR cars were the hardest hit as they had the highest power potential.
i may well go APR in controlled conditions on Stealths rollers with an as-is Oettinger run and after APR run. Only then will I really know the differences.
Mine is -10bhp down at the wheels figures on the other guys Oettinger "210"'s, so something is'nt right with mine.
We saw today the effect of inexperience with VAG 1.8T cars and running them on the rollers.
All the best
Bill
Thanks Bill for an enjoyable and most weirdly interesting day.
181bhp not bad I have a 1bhp increase ;)
What i want to know is why all the peak power was set around 4500rpm ?? Seemed a bit pointless seen as though the cars peak around 5500rpm.
And i loved my wild little spike at the end :)
Anyway im not dissapointed, as ive never judged my car on its figures, just to qoute someone ;) I judge its "Butt Dyno" :D
I know my car is quick, a lot quicker than standard on the road, to me the RR figures meant nothing as long as my car continues to perform.
I think the runs took too long to setup. by the time he'd thrashed the arse of em, the charge temperature was thru the roof, as you say i think the boost pressures on chipped/tuned cars accelerate the problem, that the standard cars dont suffer from as much.
The standard car proved higher BHP figures but was more than 30lbft down on torque in comparison.
Add that with the inherant cooling difficulty anyway, with the intercoolers being tucked up out of the way and not front mounted ones like it seems PS are more used to dealing with.
All in all a good day out, but i wouldn't say it was in anyway beneficial as a method of choosing a potential chip tuner, and to be honest really misleading.
I have an Oettinger and was down, Paul and Bens were up, Bill and Lee were down, not consistent really is it. Chipped cars producing less than standard figures when in fact they dont.
Im already changin my chip anyway, im changing to an APR later this month, not for reasons that im unhappy with the Oettinger product itself, as it does make the car quicker as anyone thats been in my car will tell you.
My reasons are purely to do with service level, im dissatisfied with the support i got, and even if im giving up a warranty in my eyes it means nothing if you can't get your questions answered properly.
But i'll be up for any future event, especially one run by some people with a more informed knowledge of VW engines and their characteristics.
Thanks again Bill
and nice to see everyone :D
chungster
19-01-2002, 21:31
Bill,
Didn't mean to be sarchastic..honest! ;)
Ok...yours IS still running slightly less than mine...and mine is apparently running less than Paul and Bens.
Me and Paul had a race yesterday....and at 110mph...he didn't gain a single inch, and I didn't gain a single inch.
As for GTEvo's....I raced him too at 130mph...and his car can;t have that major a problem if he can overtake cars like they are not moving...and giving me a run at 130mph.
Yep...if I lose to Fastshow next week and post anything other than a sub mid 15sec run...my car is either down on power, or i'm getting worse at driving!! hehe
My slick looking Toyo's will hopfully make up for it though!! :D
True point about all the others running more boost, and out in the open air, on a road, they may well be slightly faster than our conservative 12psi Oettinger conversions.
On a track Bill, I will never have a chance against you...even if yours is 5bhp down on me.
As for am i worried about my car being down on Paul and Bens...not really. I'll arrange drag race with them of some sort...and then I'll let you know if my car is slightly down on bhp. Or we may just all go down to PE one day...to see whats what.
Cheers
Lee
Cheers for organising today Bill... and put me down for the next run at Jabbasport. ;)
As everyone has already said... some very interesting results today. All chipped cars were well down, but the standard cars where spot on.... sounds like heatsoak affecting the modded cars.
Still strange that I got 197bhp, ~10bhp over Bills, Lees 'identical' cars. Quite happy with the 209lb/ft torque as this is actually MORE than RSD/Oetinger claim.
I noticed a couple of strange things with my car on the way home though....
1) The suspension or something was making some loud banging noises at times which it had never done before,
2) Not really related to the RR today but...
When the car is cold and idle my shiney new boost gauge reads -9 psi, when its warmed up it reads -11psi at idle and if I free wheel in gear down a hill I get upto -13psi.
Also, you say that the car spikes out 17psi and then drops down to 12psi.... I'd say that I've seen mine get upto 18psi quite regularly and its easy to keep it at over 15-16psi for quite a while before it slowly drops off! This seems a little different to Bills and Lees.
BTW, has anyone got a summary of all the results today?
What was the highest bhp Ibiza? What was the highest Torque Ibiza? Same for Leon? Same for TTs? Others?
Cheers
Ben
PS. I had to leave before the TT had its run.... :( Don't suppose anyone made an AVI of it did they?
Ben
Watch this space, flamespitting TT recorded by cupra.net man of action Zboyd
:)
I'll try and get it posted up this evening, im working thru all my video now :)
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 21:49
Originally posted by chungster
Or we may just all go down to PE one day...to see whats what.
Cheers
Lee
Aye..
I suspect this will be reconvened (sp) at Jabbasports dyno in a couple of months.. At least there, they know and very much understand the art of chipping from 1st hand experience.
It shoud give all of us the true figures we expect to see. (I still expect to see my figures down on you guys though)
regards
Bill
Steve3961
19-01-2002, 21:54
Originally posted by chungster
Steve3691....sorry mate, forgot to give you a demo run too. Next time yeah.
:D
Yup! no problem Lee!
Any chance of you posting the no. for the Blitz filter kit, DS Engineering please mate? (I think it was DS)
Thanks Bill for organising a good if comical day!
Any chance i could reserve a place @ the next one? Mine could be the standard one?
Thanks in advance!
Excellent, cheers Saul.
Lee, a race with me would not be fair... I may have an extra 10bhp over you but I need an extra 15 to compensate for my beer belly! ;)
No, but seriously, what do you make of my boost rangine from -13 or so upto +18psi including long periods over 15psi?
Also.... my boost gauge (Which was fitted yesterday) fell off on the way home!!!!!!!!!!! :( I say fell off, I mean that it came unstuck from the dash and was hanging on by its wires! so much for £50 fitting! ;)
BTW, I saw the Blitz induction kit running on one of the Ibizas.... nice... £130 fitted including custom made splash guards. i think I may be tempted (Especially as the Cruise Control didn't arrive in time.... I have a few spare squid burning a hold in my pocket.).
So, where are Jabbasport based (ie. the next rolling road session)?
Ben
chungster
19-01-2002, 21:56
Yep.
Just let me know if you want my car to be there for comparison again. Good chat with the Jabbasport people actually...quite different from what i imagined they would like from stuff I've previously heard about them.
That was the full Truluck family right??
The thing is...they say they have 210bhp from whats on their Ibiza today. Paul and Ben did the same on the rollers as theirs....~1bhp...so would that not suggest Paul and Ben will get the 210bhp on Jabbasports dyno??
I don't know what to think really. Can't afford another chip...don't fancy giving up warranty, so I'll leave it for now.
I'd very much like to know what the results of both yours and Zboyds will be, if you too do go for the APR option.
Saul, any chance of a quick demo ride with ya next time??
As long as everyone is happy with their car at the end of the day, then all is well.
Lee
Thanks Bill for organising a great day..
Very happy that my beeza ran 157.5 bhp standard. Stood in happy corner all day with Jason..and Fastshow..
Cheers
Daz.
:D :D :D :D :D
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 21:58
Originally posted by Steve3961
Yup! no problem Lee!
Any chance of you posting the no. for the Blitz filter kit, DS Engineering please mate? (I think it was DS)
Thanks Bill for organising a good if comical day!
Any chance i could reserve a place @ the next one? Mine could be the standard one?
Thanks in advance!
Names being collected now..
I'll add you in.
regards
bill
How should the engine be warmed up, we nipped down to town in mine before my run, should I have just let it idle up to temp without using the turbo ??
-----------------
Ahh.... Turbo's and Rolling Roads, can be a big problem, I see it every day...
The main problem is heat soak, you can have the biggest fan in the world but you will struggle to get a good flow of air under the car as you would when driving on the road. This good flow of air under the car helps suck out heat that gets generated under bonnet, this does not happen on a rolling road and as we all know heat rises. This heat soaks into inlet manifolds, boost piping, intercoolers/chargecoolers, the latter will depend on their location. VERY BAD FOR POWER
Bill mentioned in earlier post about chipped cars not seeing anywhere near what they should, his analysis was spot on with more boost and higher intake temps and long drawn out power runs, Bad Combination. Heat is the biggest killer for power and affects all cars, not just turbo's, VR6 engines can lose 10bhp for instance purely due to heatsoak on rolling roads.
Tips on how to prepare your car for a Rolling Road Session.
1: Tyres pressures
2: Steering Geometry, this can affect run down losses more than anything.
3: Do not have belly scraping ride heights they create HORRIBLE driveshaft angles.
4: Make sure oil and water levels are correct.
5: Never turn up for any rolling road session with a slipping clutch, even if only slightly. (yeah you guessed I've seen it)
6: DON'T warm your engine..... the worst thing you could is leave your engine Idling while waiting for your turn on the rollers, remember what I said earlier about no airflow under the car and heat rising. Any Rolling Road Operator worth his salt will bring your engine up to temp with light throttle applications (ie no boost) on the rollers. Your operator will carryout the power test when the temp is right thus doing his best to beat the heatsoak.
However this can induce another problem in that the gearbox oil may not be up to temp thus inducing more transmission losses, remeber gear oil is quite thick. Normally this will only alter the power by about 5bhp, but the way I look at it with 200bhp cars being common place these days 5 bhp is neither here or there..
I've probably forgotten something which is quite Important, that would be embarrasing, but it is Satuday night and I have had a beer or two
Hope this answers some of your questions?
Regards
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 22:01
Originally posted by BenS1
Excellent, cheers Saul.
Lee, a race with me would not be fair... I may have an extra 10bhp over you but I need an extra 15 to compensate for my beer belly! ;)
No, but seriously, what do you make of my boost rangine from -13 or so upto +18psi including long periods over 15psi?
Also.... my boost gauge (Which was fitted yesterday) fell off on the way home!!!!!!!!!!! :( I say fell off, I mean that it came unstuck from the dash and was hanging on by its wires! so much for £50 fitting! ;)
BTW, I saw the Blitz induction kit running on one of the Ibizas.... nice... £130 fitted including custom made splash guards. i think I may be tempted (Especially as the Cruise Control didn't arrive in time.... I have a few spare squid burning a hold in my pocket.).
So, where are Jabbasport based (ie. the next rolling road session)?
Ben
Boost guage fell off.. Opps. Should have got me to fit it :D
Mines still hanging on nicely...
long periods over 15psi is'nt like mine.. You do seem to have more boost than me if the guages are accurate to each other. I feel a vag-com moment coming on.. :D
Jabbasport are near Peterborough.
Bill
chungster
19-01-2002, 22:01
Ben,
Mine does exactly the same. Rests at -9psi at idle (neutral), bu then changin gear or freewheeling (car moving but out of gear). it goes to -11psi. No idea why, but its amusing.
"Fell off"....damn, maybe they didn't use the right superglue then!
Ask Flapper about it....
Might is still going strong, even with the PSS9's making the car darn jumpy at times.
Jabbasports are near Peterborough I think.
Blitz Induction was on Pauls car....and by heck did it sound good on the rollers when the chap was changing gears!!
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 22:03
Originally posted by chungster
Blitz Induction was on Pauls car....and by heck did it sound good on the rollers when the chap was changing gears!!
How does it stop dust though... Any ideas? If you hold it up to the light you could see daylight I think...
Can't see how.. Happily be informed... Its the mutts nutts in the looks and sound dept. :)
Bill
chungster
19-01-2002, 22:08
Ben,
Forgot to say like Bill, I don't see continuous 15psi spurts...always 12psi....(well, bar the 17psi moments).
Bill,
No idea, but Blitz being a BIG Jap company, I'm assuming they have done the necessary research to ensure its ok for normal conditions (not like the Sahara Desert or something).
Maybe mine and yours Bill is running less boost than Paul and Ben's then??? ooooohhhh......how weird!!
Also, Bill did you not say there was no change in inlet temps from the run you had at PS with the Vag-Com on???
Steve,
Will PM it to you when i find it!
Lee
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 22:21
Originally posted by chungster
Ben,
Forgot to say like Bill, I don't see continuous 15psi spurts...always 12psi....(well, bar the 17psi moments).
Bill,
No idea, but Blitz being a BIG Jap company, I'm assuming they have done the necessary research to ensure its ok for normal conditions (not like the Sahara Desert or something).
Maybe mine and yours Bill is running less boost than Paul and Ben's then??? ooooohhhh......how weird!!
Also, Bill did you not say there was no change in inlet temps from the run you had at PS with the Vag-Com on???
Steve,
Will PM it to you when i find it!
Lee
Not Sahara sand Lee. Fine dust like dry mud in the summer. Very fine stuff, gets everywhere. Got past tripple layer foam filters cos I let them get dry... and cost me over £700 in engine rebuild costs on the Jetta. I am very cautious of this now!
Err The VAG-COM runs I did before Xmas did have high intake temps.. over 85 degrees at one point. engine was on its 4th consequtive power run by then though.... only 174bhp also ! EAK!
On the datalogging using vag-com on block#120 i got a 27degree temp rise in real road driving conditions.... ~20 to 47'C in only 20 odd seconds of running. The intercoolers are too marginal.
Does sound like you and I have less boost than the others.... Maybe this is a clue?
Bill
Originally posted by chungster
I don't know what to think really. Can't afford another chip...don't fancy giving up warranty, so I'll leave it for now.
I'd very much like to know what the results of both yours and Zboyds will be, if you too do go for the APR option.
Saul, any chance of a quick demo ride with ya next time??
As long as everyone is happy with their car at the end of the day, then all is well.
Lee
Thats it, i think as long as your happy, though im happy with my car other things have led me to make this decision, and thats my choice.
What were intending on doing with my car, later this month is im running the car on Stealths rollers as is, then an after once the APR is installed.
To be honest im not expecting it to be any dissimilar in results in terms of power, but i like the options on the APR they appeal to me more. :)
Lee i'll let you know how it goes, and i'll let you have a go of mine too if you want ;)
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 22:29
Originally posted by widdowd
Thanks Bill for organising a great day..
Very happy that my beeza ran 157.5 bhp standard. Stood in happy corner all day with Jason..and Fastshow..
Cheers
Daz.
:D :D :D :D :D
Glad you enjoyed it...
Some one did at least!
Fastshow ran on the rollers right?
can you remind me?
busy day..
cheers
Bill
The Leons do seem to have some other gremlin not found on our Ibiza's. A couple of theories were mentioned, and these I'm sure will be looked into. Surging etc. Hmmm. Nasty fault that
Surging - What does mean exactly?
and why are leons doing this?
thanks for help
dave
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 22:35
Originally posted by chungster
Yep.
Just let me know if you want my car to be there for comparison again. Good chat with the Jabbasport people actually...quite different from what i imagined they would like from stuff I've previously heard about them.
That was the full Truluck family right??
The thing is...they say they have 210bhp from whats on their Ibiza today. Paul and Ben did the same on the rollers as theirs....~1bhp...so would that not suggest Paul and Ben will get the 210bhp on Jabbasports dyno??
I don't know what to think really. Can't afford another chip...don't fancy giving up warranty, so I'll leave it for now.
I'd very much like to know what the results of both yours and Zboyds will be, if you too do go for the APR option.
Saul, any chance of a quick demo ride with ya next time??
As long as everyone is happy with their car at the end of the day, then all is well.
Lee
Mike Truluck is a very talented man... There are a few good Jabbasport products in the offing, which should open up the 1.8T world of tuning to more poeple.
He is one of the few (2) UK tuners who map their own chips, and this intimate knowledge and huge experience of building some mighty powerful (like 350bhp powerful) 1.8T engines, he deserves some respect. Add to that he and his Jabbasport family are enthusiasts for the VAG range, just adds icing to the cake.
Mike will see us good for the RR return, and the conditions will be far more favourable for that day.
My problem will be only having 15 places to play with.. Mine is one, Mikes own is another.... 13 others to be decided upon, giving the depth and range of tuners and cars again.
Oh my god... I'm at it again!!
I need a rest. Its been a tiring day.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
19-01-2002, 22:36
Originally posted by dave
Surging - What does mean exactly?
and why are leons doing this?
thanks for help
dave
Surging = boost rising and falling where it should be constant.
Bill
Petrolhead Paul
19-01-2002, 22:56
A couple of things, Lee you got 188bhp and I hit 195bhp, thats a difference of 7 bhp not 12bhp.
Anyway in the REAL world our Oettinger tweaked cars are all producing more or less the same give or take a couple of bhp.
This was proven at Chobham where myself and Lee accelerated flat out against one another and there was **** ALL between the cars up to around 100 - neither car gaining a foot on the other.
Jabbasport said even P.S.'s method of checking the mixture was bollocks as they are probing after the cat, so I'd take any running rich comments with a pinch of salt, I think he said mine was a bit rich as well Bill.
After todays findings I am convinced that there is nothing wrong with your car Bill, or Lees, and differences in temperatures, tyres, and rolling road operating variances account for the apparant differences in estimated flywheel output.
The suging on Leons was the car boosting then cutting out then boosting again etc.... sounded like you kept pressing the accelerator and then releasing. Not good.
Not Sahara sand Lee. Fine dust like dry mud in the summer. Very fine stuff, gets everywhere. Got past tripple layer foam filters cos I let them get dry... and cost me over £700 in engine rebuild costs on the Jetta. I am very cautious of this now!
Bill, the Blitz filter can filter particles down to 20microns which is the same as a foam filter. One thing i was concerned about on Pauls though was that even though he had a splash guard there were clearly visible areas around the filter where water had been getting and had since dried up! Not good for the filter to suck this in.
"Fell off"....damn, maybe they didn't use the right superglue then!
Actually, they used double sided sticky tape!!!! Its also not stuck onto a flat surface so very little of the tape actually makes contact with the dash!
long periods over 15psi is'nt like mine.. You do seem to have more boost than me if the guages are accurate to each other. I feel a vag-com moment coming on..
My guage is exactly the same as Lees and was giving exactly -9psi at cold idle as expected. Feel free to attach a VAGCOM to it.
I'd like to get my car on a more accurate set of rollers, eg. Jabbasports, so if yu have any spaces then please put me down for one, but i can understand if you don't want too many identical cars are I know places are limited. Let me know.
This topic is sooo busy tonight that I keep missing several post that people have added in the time that I type my messages!
Ben
Petrolhead Paul
19-01-2002, 23:22
Ben, any water hasn't been a problem so far, the mesh is so fine individual drops and spray will evaporate before they get to the MAF.
If you poured a pint on top of it you might get a problem. But then that goes for any induction kits.
Anyway lets see how it runs over the next couple of months, if it doesn't fail in winter it'll be fine.
On dust filtration there is a better dry induction kit made by APEXi, which is a dry cotton gauze. Its Japanese, very high quality and filters better than ANY other induction kit including oiled K&N.
In comparisons I have read the Blitz filters better than HKS oiled foam filters - so will be a lot better than dry Pipercross filters, but the APEXi is by far the best. Induction note won't be as nice as the Blitz but depends on your priorities I guess.
The snag? - its as dear or dearer than the Blitz, but probably the best bet on these cars. I found out about it after I had the Blitz fitted, but if stainless mesh is so flawed why do so many very expensive Jap cars run them and why are HKS launching their own range of stainless mesh filters?
Paul,
I'm definately interested in the Blitz.... was really only £130 fitted including the custom made splash guards? I thought they were £250+???
Anyway, back to the rolling road.... did any Ibizas get over 200bhp today?
Ben
its the same with the n/a gang today .i really can't see my car keeping up with scott's on the road (though i'd try) yet had a far better run on the rollers, any chance of our twenty quid back bill?:)seriously ; had a cracking day out AGAIN saw some really nice looking motors power is nothing without control they say and after nearly sticking mine in a hedge on the way home at a sensibe speed i think its time i had a word with MR bill stein . more bloody money!!:cheers:
Lee, got no problems takin you out for a demo mate.
Hit the nail on the head really with the intake temperatures, Powerstation are used to big jap motors running front mouonted 'coolers. Hence why the TT (silver AmD) struggled as its coolers are on the side, not in the middle where the fan was blowing.
I was impressed by the jabbasport fellas too, not at all like i had been led to believe, pleasantly surprised.
Bill, if Mark/Richard arent taklin their demo down, id gladly put mine down for another run.
Good day overall tho, my first experience of a RR.
Cleanin the car in the mornin so better go to bed.
TTFN
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 11:17
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
A couple of things, Lee you got 188bhp and I hit 195bhp, thats a difference of 7 bhp not 12bhp.
Anyway in the REAL world our Oettinger tweaked cars are all producing more or less the same give or take a couple of bhp.
This was proven at Chobham where myself and Lee accelerated flat out against one another and there was **** ALL between the cars up to around 100 - neither car gaining a foot on the other.
Mine had - 137.5@wheels compared to:
bens: 147@wheels
Pauls: 142@wheels
Lees: 145@wheels
It was and still is the lowest "210" Ibiza, as I have said all along.
So you went to Chobham in the end then.....
What turned up on the day?
Acceleration 0-100 is one test, but did you do any in-gear tests..
Bill
chungster
20-01-2002, 11:20
Saul, Cheers mate. Look forward to it.
I think with the extra number of differently chipped Ibiza's, another Alconbury with 0-60, 1/4 mile Datron Timing gear sounds appealing!!Mark,
I'll take you up on that offer!
Thanks.
Totally understand your reasoning in having a go with APR. Tried me best to help, but things never go the way you want time sometimes. Just hope the grin factor will still be there when you hit the loud pedal!
At this rate, we could have our own little showroom of chipped Seats for people to try!! ;) Thats gotta be worth a feature in a mag??
Ben,
Double sided sticky tape! Noo...Amethyst...Noooo...can't believe that! Sure mine's been glued on with something.
Bill,
Yeah, even his wife was quite knowledgeable in the tech stuff.
About the filter....not sure about the fine dust. It is a risk if you think about it...but then again, people running filters now on 1.8T's with no oil are running a risk. Like someone says..even PiperX reckon its ok without the oil!!
i'm keeping the std box cos it ain't worth it due to major traffic probs (stationary) so induction kit does nowt!
Paul,
I got 185.5bhp to be exact. 9.5 off yours...and 11.5 off Ben's.
I reckon me tyres may have affected the drag a little. Also, me car is now lowered, when it was std at PE. Then again, Bill and Ben's are both lowered, with different wheels though. All little diffs which may or may not play a role.
No doubt yours ain't faster/slower than mine.
Did Dave do a full run on his AmD Ibiza? Or did they call it off??
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 11:24
Originally posted by BenS1
I'd like to get my car on a more accurate set of rollers, eg. Jabbasports, so if yu have any spaces then please put me down for one, but i can understand if you don't want too many identical cars are I know places are limited. Let me know.
This topic is sooo busy tonight that I keep missing several post that people have added in the time that I type my messages!
Ben
email me Ben (and others) who wish to put their names down for the Jabbasport re-run. Final names and date wil be announced nearer the time.
On the boost guage, I did not use a double sided tape as the dash material and coatings does not lend itself to the pod sticking on such a curvy surface. I have some special 3M Scotch material which accomodates the curves and sticks like sh1t to a blanket :D
If anyone wants to email me re the Jabbasport re-run, please do so to the following address.
jabba@badger5.demon.co.uk
thankyou
regards
Bill
chungster
20-01-2002, 11:29
Bill,
Yours sure is the least powerful "on the rollers"...out of the 4 cars.
But on a track, I'm sure its every bit as quick
I lnow you are simply trying to prove the "figures" that people/companies claim, and thats all fair and well, as long as everything is consistent.
Like I said to you, out of the 4 cars, you are the only one running with any sort of non-neutral camber settings (we all have neutral, whilst you have -2 degrees worth)
I think I saw Vince from Stealth say earlier that Steering Geomtry (I'm assuming Camber/Toe settings is part of this right??) can make a diff. whether it'll be about 5bhp from Paul's, 7 to mine, and bit more to Ben's, I'm not sure.
But unless we all have identical spec (thats everything), I don't think we'll ever get exact figs on all 4 cars, especially on a UK roller.
checked my tyre pressures, and I have 31psi on the fronts, and 30psi on the back.
We had greatr fun at Chobham with CCC.
We had one 8V, a 16V, me and Paul's 20VT, and a Cupra R from Seat UK. Mine was "well loose and tail happy" according to Mark Hales...he didn't like the PSS9's, and boy did he gets all the car sideways thru the Snake section. Mark said our "210's" felt much quicker than the R.
Most enjoyble day. Can't wait for the mag now.
Lee
Petrolhead Paul
20-01-2002, 11:42
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Mine had - 137.5@wheels compared to:
bens: 147@wheels
Pauls: 142@wheels
Lees: 145@wheels
It was and still is the lowest "210" Ibiza, as I have said all along.
You run a different wheel/tyre size to the rest of us and you have altered the camber. These can affect things according to someone above.
So you went to Chobham in the end then.....
What turned up on the day?
I'd already booked the day off so I figured I might as well go. CCC got hold of a Cupra R from SEAT, Glyns 8V, Neils 16V, Chungsters and mine. Both Oettinger cars noticeably quicker than the R according to Mark Hales.
P.S. The snapper (who drove the R down) hated the Rs ride quality, said it was terrible.
Acceleration 0-100 is one test, but did you do any in-gear tests.. I would expect the APR's 30+ lb/ft higher torque claim to make these times more of a differential.
Bill
As a rough indicator (and with no timing gear) its not a bad test.
Whats APRs car got to do with it? I really don't care if APRs car is quicker or slower than mine because I am perfectly happy with my conversion and its the only one that is warrantied. Bragging about having the most torque is all very well until your gearbox goes and SEAT won't replace it under warranty.
In any case I bet the APR, Jabba, Oettinger and AmD cars are all very close on the road, each offering Impreza matching 20-100 times.
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 11:42
Originally posted by chungster
Saul, Cheers mate. Look forward to it.
I think with the extra number of differently chipped Ibiza's, another Alconbury with 0-60, 1/4 mile Datron Timing gear sounds appealing!!Mark,
Totally understand your reasoning in having a go with APR. Tried me best to help, but things never go the way you want time sometimes. Just hope the grin factor will still be there when you hit the loud pedal!
At this rate, we could have our own little showroom of chipped Seats for people to try!! ;) Thats gotta be worth a feature in a mag??
Ben,
Bill,
Yeah, even his wife was quite knowledgeable in the tech stuff.
About the filter....not sure about the fine dust. It is a risk if you think about it...but then again, people running filters now on 1.8T's with no oil are running a risk. Like someone says..even PiperX reckon its ok without the oil!!
i'm keeping the std box cos it ain't worth it due to major traffic probs (stationary) so induction kit does nowt!
Did Dave do a full run on his AmD Ibiza? Or did they call it off??
Lee.
I am going to be fitting a BMC CDA to my Ibiza, so will still maintain cold air in whilst benefitting (in theory) from a free-er flowing filter. The BMC is a carbon box housing with a large cotton gauze filter inside, and some conical flow path inserts to aid airflow. Being carbon, it should be a little better (worse) on the heat conduction, compared to the moulded plastic factory airbox.
Do you believe everything these suppliers tell you - eg Pipercross? There is a huge amount of BS in this industry, and where comments like that get made, you have to question On what basis have they tested it? Foam filters need the oiling to catch the fine dust. suddenly they don't need it? Following reported problems on MAF's with Vipers?
You pays your money and you takes your choice, but don't believe everything you read or are told. The Viper is being slagged off something rotten on Vortex... MAF probs..
IF - I go with APR, it will be for more than the performance increase I am after, but for the customer support RSD seem so totally useless at. They are too busy for their own good, and their poor reputation (aside from my own gripes) is spreading rapidly from many other people. APR so far, would seem to be far better in the customer support side than RSD. This is'nt just me saying that either.
Jabbasport, are very good guys, so these references to previous doubts people have said must be quite unfounded in reality. Anyone in the VW world will konw they build some seriously quick forced induction machinery, and have been doing so for some years, starting with the G-Laders and now progressing onto the 20VT's. They have a huge experience and should not be overlooked. Their chip upgrades (reprogrammed for YOUR car) are very inexpensive being in the Upsolute price range. These are not off the shelf chips, but custom for your engine. Pretty damn good I would say.
regards
Bill
chungster
20-01-2002, 11:51
Bill,
Re the PiperX...i was only saying what Mic from Impossible has already said (nothing to do with RSD)....that PiperX have told him its ok to have filter with no oil.
And IF you do go with APR...i hope they do offer the extra bit of performane you seek on ya Cupra.
Carbon air box with filter inside....you gonna put any oil on it being cotton gauze? That chap with the big turbod'd Golf had the Viper...and he's using it DRY!!!
Yeah, lots of various info being thrown around, hard to know who's telling the truth really. Still, as long as my car goes, then I'm a happy chappy!!
Lee
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 11:57
Originally posted by chungster
We had one 8V, a 16V, me and Paul's 20VT, and a Cupra R from Seat UK. Mine was "well loose and tail happy" according to Mark Hales...he didn't like the PSS9's, and boy did he gets all the car sideways thru the Snake section. Mark said our "210's" felt much quicker than the R.
Most enjoyble day. Can't wait for the mag now.
Lee
Was it the PSS9's he did'nt like or the setting up of them. With the range of adjustment in them, there is quite a range in adjustment terms to allow you to make it handle how you like.
I run -2degrees where Danny set it to -0.5degrees.
At Combe last year, it was clear the roll still present in the car overworked the outside edge of the tyre underload through the corner.... The extra camber I have added is to combat this, and to speed up turn in, which is neutral to dead in stock form. It my preference, and based on my track experience. Its still not where I would like it, and there is work to be done yet on the handling. but it has been a giant step forward, as proved by my times before and after at Combe.
I would get too confortable about the Oettinger/RSD warranty as it is written in such a way that they can choose to not honour it as RSD see fit. I was told this by Tony himself. I have not heard of this happening however. Compete in motorsport (do track days count????) and its invalidated. Where the car was supplied through Amethyst, Amethyst should honour the warranty, and Seat should honour the manufacturers bit, for non-modded components. This in reality means RSD/Oettinger liability is to the internal engine components & turbo.
I hope for all of our sakes that none of us have a failure. I know Oettinger don't claim to be the most powerful, but they are upper middle of the range in that respect. (their boost is more reserved than others) Warranty is the key. It was THE reason I chose Oettinger above all others, knowing they were not the most powerful. I did research this a lot before buying.
Bill
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 12:08
Originally posted by chungster
Bill,
Re the PiperX...i was only saying what Mic from Impossible has already said (nothing to do with RSD)....that PiperX have told him its ok to have filter with no oil.
And IF you do go with APR...i hope they do offer the extra bit of performane you seek on ya Cupra.
Carbon air box with filter inside....you gonna put any oil on it being cotton gauze? That chap with the big turbod'd Golf had the Viper...and he's using it DRY!!!
Yeah, lots of various info being thrown around, hard to know who's telling the truth really. Still, as long as my car goes, then I'm a happy chappy!!
Lee
Warranty is still a big issue for me.
Oettinger/Amethyst offer it, other do not.
Its a RISK going elsewhere. I would probably get more torque from APR, BUT the warranty does bother me.
The additional feature of cruise control is appealing (that comes with APR), but I am already having this fitted by Amethyst whichever chip I go or stick with.
I know your comments re the PiperX are not RSD's despite your close relationship with them. I also know the speil Danny gives re induction kits and their losses or no gains. Whether this applies to ALL induction kits though, from Oettingers "extensive" testing, I doubt it. Its a wide brush he's painting a picture with there! :D
BMC have received very good reviews and dyno results on Golfs in the USA, so I am inclined to believe there has to be something in it. Viper on the other hand is being slammed. :( No oiling seems to be a reaction and not a tested cure.
The BMC cotton gauze is lightly oiled I believe, and it is very light having looked at it in my hands. I have'nt seen one Vortex posting on the BMC killing a MAF yet.
Remember on the oiling and filter thing, that it may take many miles worth of driving, 1000's even before the failure of the filter becomes apparent. Proving it then would be very difficult. Engine wear of the rings, cylinders and valve(s) and their seats will all add up to a costly repair bill. Been there done that :( Don't intend doing it again...
regards
Bill
Petrolhead Paul
20-01-2002, 12:11
Bill (and anyone else interesed) heres a link to a US site selling the APEXi.
http://www.autoall.com/store/moreinfo/intake/apexi-uni-intake1.html
And Blitz UK importers:
http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/
Only the Blitz and APEXi are designed to run dry, and the APEXi offers the best filtration. Maybe Badger5 could become main UK importers? I'm sure someone sells APEXi stuff in the UK but I don't know who.
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 12:14
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
As a rough indicator (and with no timing gear) its not a bad test.
Whats APRs car got to do with it? I really don't care if APRs car is quicker or slower than mine because I am perfectly happy with my conversion and its the only one that is warrantied. Bragging about having the most torque is all very well until your gearbox goes and SEAT won't replace it under warranty.
In any case I bet the APR, Jabba, Oettinger and AmD cars are all very close on the road, each offering Impreza matching 20-100 times.
Forget the APR comment..(now removed)
Brain fade putting names to cars..... Soooo many names and cars in the last day or so :D
APR - If you reasd these posts..... Sort out a warranty to equal Oettinger, and you will reap the benefits of increased sales no doubt. This is the only differentiator of any note. (features are nice BUT Warranty is key on these NEW cars. Its a different story if the cars were outside of Warranty, but you wouldl have to wait until 2003-2004-2005 to reap any benefit from sales where the manufacturers warranty is no longer an issue, or competitors advantage)
Bill
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 12:22
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Bill (and anyone else interesed) heres a link to a US site selling the APEXi.
http://www.autoall.com/store/moreinfo/intake/apexi-uni-intake1.html
And Blitz UK importers:
http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/
Only the Blitz and APEXi are designed to run dry, and the APEXi offers the best filtration. Maybe Badger5 could become main UK importers? I'm sure someone sells APEXi stuff in the UK but I don't know who.
Blitz have an extensive UK dealer representation...
http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/dealers.htm
Jabbasport have used Apexi Boost controllers before... Not sure if they are an importer or official distributor though.
the price of the 80mm one you posted is excellent.. $99.95 ~ £69
thanks for the link.
regards
Bill
I still don't understand why people think there may be a problem with the Blitz' filtration.... the Biltz filters down to 20microns and an oiled induction kit also quotes filtering down to 20microns.... so in theory they are equally good at filtering and the only real difference is that one can kill the MAF and the other doesn't.
Its not the size of the holes in the gause that determine if its seethrough or not, its the gaps between the holes. If the gause has 20 micron holes with 10 micron gaps between the holes then it will be easy to see through. If it has 20 micron holes but 100 microns between the holes then it wont be so seethrough.
My biggest disappointment is that I wanted to get the RSD210 conversion and later increase the power, maybe to around 240bhp. I now find that even though RSD do have a 240bhp conversion they are not really willing to put it on an Ibiza and if I want to go to anyone else then I have to affectively through my Oetting chip away and start again!
I heard that APR may be doing a 240bhp conversion for the ibiza... I'd be very interested in that if they do a warantee and price it sensibly.
Ben
one hing the rolling road day did show (As have other rollin roads) is that the Ibiza loses alot of power between the flywheel and the road. A majority of these loses are through the gearbox, but apparently the Leon doesn't lose so much through its gearbox. Some time in the past someone confirmed that the Leon gearbox fits without modification into the Ibiza so maybe this would produce a significant power at wheels increase (Plus you have the extra gear)???
is there anything else that can be done to reduce the loses through the gearbox? The gearbox already uses high quality synthetic oil so I've heard, so its not just a matter of changing the oil. :(
Like I said to you, out of the 4 cars, you are the only one running with any sort of non-neutral camber settings (we all have neutral, whilst you have -2 degrees worth)
I think I saw Vince from Stealth say earlier that Steering Geomtry (I'm assuming Camber/Toe settings is part of this right??) can make a diff. whether it'll be about 5bhp from Paul's, 7 to mine, and bit more to Ben's, I'm not sure.
But unless we all have identical spec (thats everything), I don't think we'll ever get exact figs on all 4 cars, especially on a UK roller.
Yes, I have heard that the extra drag from wider wheels can affect the power at wheels figures due to the increased drag from the friction... but this should of been picked up and compensated for in the drag calculation and hence an accurate flywheel figure should of still been produced.
Ben
Gents
It was only one Rolling Road on one day, i wouldnt read too much into it yet, wait till we get a proper test on stealths rollers, hopefully with all the intake temps etc wired up to the machines.
As long as we are all happy with the way our cars drives, and Bill is the only one who isnt due to lack of product support, then we can all go in peace before this turns nasty, and it invariably does.
As for warranty on a 240BHP conversion Ben, i dont know, the ibiza uses and old chassis, component wear on cv joints and the gearbox would be immense with 240BHP and XXX lb/ft torque, i dont know the score on this yet so all my honest opinions.
Have a good day all, im off to wash 600miles worth of shit offa the car, accumalted in 48hrs.
TTFN
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 15:33
Originally posted by Saul
Gents
It was only one Rolling Road on one day, i wouldnt read too much into it yet, wait till we get a proper test on stealths rollers, hopefully with all the intake temps etc wired up to the machines.
As long as we are all happy with the way our cars drives, and Bill is the only one who isnt due to lack of product support, then we can all go in peace before this turns nasty, and it invariably does.
As for warranty on a 240BHP conversion Ben, i dont know, the ibiza uses and old chassis, component wear on cv joints and the gearbox would be immense with 240BHP and XXX lb/ft torque, i dont know the score on this yet so all my honest opinions.
Have a good day all, im off to wash 600miles worth of shit offa the car, accumalted in 48hrs.
TTFN
Proper test on Stealths rollers? Is this on the cards? Good venue and good guy (Vince). Who's organising this if its on?
The Jabbasport one will be sometime in March all being well, and can be 4WD by them if their rear set of rollers get delivered on time...more later on this one.
Game on! :D
My displeasure is in customer support. The car drives well and is smooth and fun.The question on power does still look to be lower on mine than it should be, but by a smaller margin than before Saturdays runs.
We have all learnt that the RR and the way in which they are being operated has a massive effect on measured output. The more you have, the more you loose.
Onward and forward from here then.
:D
Bill
I meant Jabbasports, too many bloody tuners these days, i get confused easily :confused:
Jabbasports it is then, i'll just go lie down and keep quiet
:cheers:
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 15:42
Originally posted by Saul
I meant Jabbasports, too many bloody tuners these days, i get confused easily :confused:
Jabbasports it is then, i'll just go lie down and keep quiet
:cheers:
lol :D
It must have been the fumes off the rocket ship Dylinx TT.... Rots your brain..:D
I still have a headache from yesterday :(
Owch.... thump thump thump... Paracetamol aint working either.. :(
:o
Bill
I've been reading the posts and see how the heat could have affected the turboed cars, but how is my 158bhp explained? (amd chip, cams, flowed head, cat back 'zorst) Its almost the same spec as neils, yet he got over 170bhp? - is this down to operator error, or should I phone RPM tomoorw and as whats going on?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ibizacupra
Proper test on Stealths rollers? Is this on the cards? Good venue and good guy (Vince). Who's organising this if its on?
The Jabbasport one will be sometime in March all being well, and can be 4WD by them if their rear set of rollers get delivered on time...more later on this one.
Game on! :D
My displeasure is in customer support. The car drives well and is smooth and fun.The question on power does still look to be lower on mine than it should be, but by a smaller margin than before Saturdays runs.
We have all learnt that the RR and the way in which they are being operated has a massive effect on measured output. The more you have, the more you loose.
Onward and forward from here then.
:D
Bill [/QUOTE
I have actually mentioned a RR day at Stealth, obviously dependant on Vince. But i'll be going there soon anyway for my car to be setup. So i'll discuss the possibilities.
It would be good to have an experienced Vdub tuner setting the cars up on the RR, and i think that the one at Jabbasport will be great too.
Mike and his family were really nice, i didnt get chance to speak to him myself, though they were interested in my car, but i was due on the rollers and time just caught up on us, i think they want to tune a Leon soon too. ;) anyone ?? :D
scott ,must appologies mate. i thought your puts out less than mine ,very sorry i'll stand in the corner with the dunce hat on;)
but still ,not as good as you expected .
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 17:35
I am sorting through the dyno plots and they have registrations, but not always the correct type of car - DOH!, and the PVW guy took away the information sheets from the day, so I am really struggling to match registration numbers to people to cars?
Can you email me your:
Name, Car type (Ibiza, Leon etc), Registration Number, modified by...
Email it to:-
rrnames@badger5.demon.co.uk
Many thanks Chaps.
regards
Bill
:D
Bill [/B][/QUOTE
I have actually mentioned a RR day at Stealth, obviously dependant on Vince. But i'll be going there soon anyway for my car to be setup. So i'll discuss the possibilities.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm game for it, It would be 2WD only though.
I'll leave it to you guys to do the organsing but can liase with me directly for dates etc...
Regards
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 17:59
Originally posted by Vince
:D
Bill [/QUOTE
I have actually mentioned a RR day at Stealth, obviously dependant on Vince. But i'll be going there soon anyway for my car to be setup. So i'll discuss the possibilities.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm game for it, It would be 2WD only though.
I'll leave it to you guys to do the organsing but can liase with me directly for dates etc...
Regards [/B]
Excellent Vince.. You're a star!
ZBOYD... You and/or me to help get this together then?
give us an email... and we can set about putting something on.
Even better. VAG specialist Stealth Racing AND Jabbasport. BOTH will give realistic VAG sympathetic results..
Come on then peeps.
You've had the warm up...... :D :D :D
regards
Bill
apparently the Leon doesn't lose so much through its gearbox.
So how much is the leon losing via gearbox in %terms?
and what was "Fastshows" wheel bhp/fly wheel(190bhp) i think?
Thanks
dave
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 18:10
Originally posted by dave
So how much is the leon losing via gearbox in %terms?
and what was "Fastshows" wheel bhp/fly wheel(190bhp) i think?
Thanks
dave
If Fastshows Leon is reg no L30NCP then the figures were:
Engine Output: 190.5bhp
Wheel Output: 149.5bhp
Drag Output: 41.0bhp
Max power @ 6070rpm
Max torque @ 2410 of 178lb/ft
I still have a whole raft of plots to scan in...
And by the way Fastshow - Email me re your payment eh? Credit card was'nt it?:rolleyes:
Bill
Originally posted by Vince
:D
Bill [/QUOTE
I have actually mentioned a RR day at Stealth, obviously dependant on Vince. But i'll be going there soon anyway for my car to be setup. So i'll discuss the possibilities.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm game for it, It would be 2WD only though.
I'll leave it to you guys to do the organsing but can liase with me directly for dates etc...
Regards [/B]
Cheers Vince, you are indeed a star :) we'll sort something out soon
Bill no problem, I'll help organise this with you no problem, email me at markf@zboydnet.freeserve.co.uk
Vince, just need to know will you do a Saturday (not wanting a date out of you now) or would a weekday be preferred. And what sort of numbers would we be talking about as a maximum??
I can speak to you in more detail anyway when i come down to you with Mark Yates.
Cheers
Thanks Bill, one more question, was "Fastshows" leon a 2001 or 2002 model?
thanks dave
Revo Mark
20-01-2002, 18:48
Sorry Vince
It was me who put Stealth forward yesterday for a proper shoot out with controlled conditions for all cars attending. Yesterday was a joke and the guy's at Power Station had no idea on how to try and maintain the same enviroment and conditions for all the cars they were running, so therfore no conclusions could be made- but then again both you and i had that conversation in the week so it was to no surprise of the final out come.
Every car was getting heatsink and shutting down and this showed in the graphs where most of the cars were peaking at around 4500 RPM before shutting off. I had the call on the phone on the way down from the boy's, that the Ibiza we did only produced 163BHP, but found out that this was at 4500 rpm when looking at the graphs!!
I suggested we have a day at your shop to control and monitor intake temps and the like for a true analyse.
Also Colins car produced only 169BHP !! but at peak rpm ( unlike all the others at the 4500-5000 range) and i purposely told him not to get it hot before the run, which he didn't. I learnt today Colin had trouble trying to work out how to change programs and had his neighbor try! He also said it didn't seem as quick as when he left the shop. Urmm! I think his neighbor put it in stock mode! I should have checked it myself before it went on the rollers yesterday. Anyway never mind I will speak to him tomorrow.
Bill-
Sorry you did not get anything conclusive, but thanks for a good day anyway. it was good to meet everybody, have a chat, demo our software to anybody wanting a drive, and also to try a few different cars myself. The explanations you have given to the forum regarding the RR dyno results, are very good and imformative to anybody who left yesterday slightly confused!
again, thanks for a good day Bill and will speak to you in the week.
Regards
Mark APR Europe
Bill put me down for a run at stealth . this time with a working clutch!!!!!!
david
Urmm! I think his neighbor put it in stock mode! I should have checked it myself before it went on the rollers yesterday. Anyway never mind I will speak to him tomorrow.
Mark, surely he would instantly be able to tell the difference between stck mode and performance mode.... its not like a few bhp difference. I think most people could tell if they were in a 200bhp Ibiza or a 156bhp Ibiza even if blindfolded and bundled in the boot!
Also, several people including myself suggested that it might be in stock mode when we saw the results on the rollers but I was told that it definately was not.
Anyway, I'm not doubting the performance of the chip.... If I hadn't already chipped my car with the Oettinger chip then I would of gone for the APR one! BTW, is it true that you are developing a 240bhp program (Because the 280bhp isn't suitable for the Ibiza engine bay)? If so then have you got any details? ;)
Thanks
ben
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark APR
[B]Sorry Vince
It was me who put Stealth forward yesterday for a proper shoot out with controlled conditions for all cars attending. Yesterday was a joke and the guy's at Power Station had no idea on how to try and maintain the same enviroment and conditions for all the cars they were running, so therfore no conclusions could be made- but then again both you and i had that conversation in the week so it was to no surprise of the final out come.
----------------------------------------------
No worries Mark, I'm looking forward to the shoot out.
To be fair to PS you need to know VW's and their quirks to get the best out of them...
The problem they have is that they cannot control the load on their rollers, it's set in the Software they cannot alter it.. This is NOT the case with the RR software we have.
I know the guy's at PS and just recently I have been tuning a very powerfull 5 litre TVR Griff on their rollers on DTA Management, guess what the TVR measured a good 40 to 50BHP down on what was guesstimated with said mods..
Their power runs are just too long, the TVR did not like it at all..
Having said that all the guy's at PS are very knowledgeable and very professional, they just need to ditch that shite RR software they have.. I like thier actual Rolling Road though, I wish ours was the same....
Cheers
FastShow
20-01-2002, 19:40
I seem to have missed all the conversation so I only have one thing to add:
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Oh, and put me down for the next RR session, I wanna see if I can beat you chipped guys again. :p
FastShow
20-01-2002, 19:42
Originally posted by dave
Thanks Bill, one more question, was "Fastshows" leon a 2001 or 2002 model?2002 model mate. :)
Bill,
Are there now 2 more rolling road days planned?
One thing i did notice about the different graphs were the different p-drags shown. Some got as low as 35, most were between 40 and 50bhp and the stock cars were showing 55bhp.
Now, take my car which showed 147bhp and 50bhp p-drag, so thats 197bhp at the flywheel.... if that had been 55bhp p-drag as on the stock car then I would of got 202bhp at the flywheel... which is closer to the 207bhp claimed.
OK, I'm not too bothered about a few bhp, but look at Chungsters car which has the same engine mods as mine (RSD210 oettinger conversion). Lee got somewhere around 145bhp at the wheels and a p-drag of about 40bhp giving a total of 185bhp at the flywheel..... now if that p-drag had been 55bhp as on the stock car then that would give 200bhp at the flywheel.
I also saw similar things with other chips.
Also, I thought that p-drag increases with the more power the engine produces, ie. there should be more loses between the flywheel and the wheels on a 200bhp Ibiza compared to a 156bhp Ibiza (Everything else being identical)??? So, in this case my car could very well shown the full 207bhp.
It just seems like there was too much variance in the p-drag figures across the cars.
Ben
FastShow
20-01-2002, 19:46
Originally posted by chungster
I've got less power than Fastshow's std Leon apparently, so I'll be running against him at Santa Pod next weekend to see if he'll trounce me 210.Dunno if I'm going yet mate, can you chuck me the times/prices etc and I'll see if I can make it. I'd certainly like to give it a go if I can.
Revo Mark
20-01-2002, 20:09
BTW, is it true that you are developing a 240bhp program (Because the 280bhp isn't suitable for the Ibiza engine bay)? If so then have you got any details?
BenS1
in answer to your question. Yes and not yet!
regards
Mark APR
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZBOYD
[B]
Vince, just need to know will you do a Saturday (not wanting a date out of you now) or would a weekday be preferred. And what sort of numbers would we be talking about as a maximum??
------------------------------
Weekdays would be out of the question, as I'm sure there will be alot of cars around, and the staff in the neighbering units would complain about the parking.. Saturday or Sundays are good..
Last time we had a shootout we covered 24 cars, we started at 9am and were finished at 3.30pm, not bad going, we had a good system for getting cars on and off the rollers.
Cheers
Originally posted by Vince
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZBOYD
[B]
Vince, just need to know will you do a Saturday (not wanting a date out of you now) or would a weekday be preferred. And what sort of numbers would we be talking about as a maximum??
------------------------------
Weekdays would be out of the question, as I'm sure there will be alot of cars around, and the staff in the neighbering units would complain about the parking.. Saturday or Sundays are good..
Last time we had a shootout we covered 24 cars, we started at 9am and were finished at 3.30pm, not bad going, we had a good system for getting cars on and off the rollers.
Cheers
Thats great Vince, as weekends would be better for the majority too im sure. We'll be in touch soon anyway, we can discuss a suitable date for the event. :)
Many thanks
chungster
20-01-2002, 21:10
Carl (Fastshow),
this sunday coming.
Starts at 10am all things being well.
Will send you a PM on wednesday, cos I'll be checking the weather forecasts.
If there's a chance of rain....we'll do it some other time.
But I wanna have a go against you....cos you really should beat me!! :p
Lee
chungster
20-01-2002, 21:13
Ben,
You showing signs of "believing" in the claim of 210hp from ya Oettinger conversion???
Lee ;)
IS that Oettinger 210bhp or Oettinger 210lbft cause i managed to get 211 on my torque figures, i think you'll find thats the major difference on all the chipped/tuned cars.
They may have been down on bhp, but they were in my case more than 30 higher in their torque figures. :D
Still love my little erection ;) of power i got right at the top of the run, i'll scan my Graph in tommorow to point it out for those that didnt see it, i also recorded it on film, this will be posted up soon too.
chungster
20-01-2002, 21:29
Well, i say 210HP because its an Euroland chip (like Clio172 etc).
Reason why RSD called it the 210 was because when they tested the prototype exhaust with Milltek, it produced 210bhp.
That was using a slightly bigger bore exhaust, but RSD told them to make it smaller cos the torque was not what they wanted lower down in the rev range...so they sacrificed max bhp for some more torque lower down.
Tony actually told me torque should be about 205lb/ft when I first chipped it.....I got 227 at PE, and 202 at PS...so the torque figs seem ok.
Your little "thing" at the end, is like its gone into "super pursuit mode" ...Knight Rider stylee....
I'll be mentioning that to them thats for sure...cos where's my extra bit of va va voom???
Lee
Not sure if thats some characteristic of my car, hope its nothing leading to something terminal :p
Anyway when it goes on the rollers at Stealth, we'll see if its something thats inherant to the car or something the chip has produced. Could even be due to the RamAir panel filter who knows.
:confused:
Just to confirm everyones fears that there was no cooling to the intercoolers, i put my hand in front of both of the air inlets for the intercoolers whilst the fan was running on the highest speed and there was virtually no air being forced into the near center inlet, and none at all going into the inlet right in front of the intercooler, they seemed to focus all the airflow into the radiator!.
A question for those of you who have printouts - when guessing the 'flywheel' power, did they add the peak drag figure or the drag figure at the RPM where maximum bhp was recorded?
I was going to post a reminder that control tyre pressures should be set, geometry should be within spec, only cars with identical size wheels could be compared, temperatures, etc. I assumed (perhaps wrongly?) that the RR place would know this anyway so didn't bother.
I'll be interested to see the shape of the plots when they're scanned & uploaded.
Sorry I couldn't make it Bill.
ibizacupra
20-01-2002, 22:54
Originally posted by dave
Thanks Bill, one more question, was "Fastshows" leon a 2001 or 2002 model?
thanks dave
2002 I think he said.
Goes bloody well. :)
Bill
yup 2002, and im goin to whip a few things out of that while he aint looking :D
thanks for info guys
dave
:cheers:
Originally posted by Saul
As DJawol will tell you, it aint 163BHP
Yep, you could tell that with the big cheesey grin! :D
It made my stock Cupra feel bloody slow on the way home. I was ragging the nuts of it trying to squeeze the extra power out, I'm gonna be talking to APR when funds allow.
I attempted to keep up with the Silver Golf (Colin?) that overtook us just as you and Mark got onto the M5. He appeared to be having a race with a 2.4 Volvo and I had no chance!
Cheers for sorting the day out Bill, nice to meet a few more people.....oh and Saul, change your Sig. "Soon to be APR'd" should become "APR'd and bloody happy" ;)
Cheers all
Andy
Cheers Andy for guiding us round Cheltenham :)
I thought i was going the wrong way when we joined the M5 :D I looked and for some reason only saw South West. here's me thinking where is he sending me here :D haha
But then i realised it also said Midlands doh :p
Thanks again, hope to see you again soon. :)
Yeah cheers for the tour andy, i would have got very lost, its all rather similar. Some nice houses tho.
Again thanks to all, and see you at the next one.
:cheers:
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Cheers Andy for guiding us round Cheltenham :)
No problems mate, the stupid one way system is a pain in the arse. The would've been a much more direct route from Tesco if it wasn't so badly designed.
I thought i was going the wrong way when we joined the M5 :D I looked and for some reason only saw South West. here's me thinking where is he sending me here :D haha
But then i realised it also said Midlands doh :p
I thought you looked kind of worried as you were driving down the ramp! :)
Thanks again, hope to see you again soon. :)
No probs mate! :)
Cheers
Andy
Originally posted by Saul
Yeah cheers for the tour andy, i would have got very lost, its all rather similar. Some nice houses tho.
No probs mate. Cheers for sorting out the demo in the APR car. That reminds me, I'm going to start a thread about the suspension in the track cars........
As for the houses, they're damn expensive which is why I live about 10 miles away. My missus sold her two bedroom flat in Chelt and bought a 3 bedroom, detached, brand new house with a garage in Tewkesbury just up the road for 3grand less. :( I'd never be able to afford to live there....which is why I try to pick rich birds from Chelt who own houses. ;)
Cheers
Andy
This is what I got on Saturday:
P-eng 173.0 bhp
P-wheel 116.5 bhp
P-drag 56.5 bhp
At AmD in June, they recorded a P-drag of 27.6 on a peak of 171.0 (with different head and milder cams), and at recent RR days I've got 148, and 154 @ wheels.
Why was the drag so high at Powerstation? I have got my old wheels on at the moment though, and I think that the tyres may be a bit flat (I'll check them later), but I still wouldn't have expected that big a difference. I nearly shat myself when I saw the graph go up to 116 and then drop again, after getting 154 last time.
On a different note, my max torque was at 6060 rpm! (140 lb ft) That's why it gets put into 3rd gear on the motorway sometimes. Obviously it's not a 20VT, it's the red Ibiza 2.0 16v with the nasty tickover.
Cheers Bill good day out!!!!
Apparently the dyno chap said the dip in my curve was probably due to the knock sensor retarding the ignition.
I've been using optimax for a couple of weeks doing my own trial. I filled up on Friday night ready for Saturday at the same station, but on saturday the car felt flat all the way to PS and back as well. I stopped on the A14 near Corby and put some Esso 95Ron in and the car has been going like a rocket. The mate I had with me noticed the difference straight away. May be dodgy petrol from Shell???? I don't know if this affected the dyno but it certainly made a difference on the road.
Conclusion from my Optimax versus normal (1000 miles each) is Optimax usually give stronger pull but overall everything else is the same, same result as I found with standard chip.
BILL - Put me down for the Jabbasport day, I'll probably pay them a visit soon any way. Hope that day reassures people the've chosen the right mod, should be more conclusive and the 4 lane stretch of the A1 Alconbury to Peterborough could be the proving ground afterwards.
Hi Bill
Well organised, thanks, it was a lot of fun.
Seems that intake charge cooling is the issue - this must be a more common problem than people realise or could just be specific to side mounted intercoolers. Interested to visit other RR sessions to find out more - please keep me posted (ta). Seems you need to monitor the intake temp to compensate.
Regarding oiling of foam filters - I would think this is a must, I have raced motocross for many years now and its essential to oil the filter to trap the fines as you pointed out. There have been loads of tests done on this in MX and providing you use the right amount of the right filter oil (not any old GTX), it makes sod all difference to the flow / power (and this is on little cc engines where it would be noticed right away).
Thanks once again - see you at Donnington ! (brake pad test for me - EBC Reds vs. Wilwood Polymatrix D's)
Cheers
Rob
Originally posted by neilp
This is what I got on Saturday:
P-eng 173.0 bhp
P-wheel 116.5 bhp
P-drag 56.5 bhp
At AmD in June, they recorded a P-drag of 27.6 on a peak of 171.0 (with different head and milder cams), and at recent RR days I've got 148, and 154 @ wheels.
Why was the drag so high at Powerstation? I have got my old wheels on at the moment though, and I think that the tyres may be a bit flat (I'll check them later), but I still wouldn't have expected that big a difference. I nearly shat myself when I saw the graph go up to 116 and then drop again, after getting 154 last time.
On a different note, my max torque was at 6060 rpm! (140 lb ft) That's why it gets put into 3rd gear on the motorway sometimes. Obviously it's not a 20VT, it's the red Ibiza 2.0 16v with the nasty tickover.
a nasty(ish) tickover, but a proper engine sound !
Get the fuel sorted !
Cheers
Rob
ps - what cams did you say are in it - no way they are 286's as you said on friday (piper dont make them anyhow) - power peaked way to early for those.
Neil, have you compared sats chart with Gerry 16v's on this forum - the standard car has higher torque and power at the wheels! it doesn't make any sense really, i'm going to get mine tested again locally and have a word with RPM - ideally I want the chip mapped.
Originally posted by RobT
a nasty(ish) tickover, but a proper engine sound !
Get the fuel sorted !
Cheers
Rob
ps - what cams did you say are in it - no way they are 286's as you said on friday (piper dont make them anyhow) - power peaked way to early for those.
I think they're called Piper 285, but they are 276 degrees.
Max power was at 6900 rpm, max torque at 6060 rpm! Not ideal for an every day car, but I like it :D
Originally posted by neilp
I think they're called Piper 285, but they are 276 degrees.
Max power was at 6900 rpm, max torque at 6060 rpm! Not ideal for an every day car, but I like it :D
Hi Neil
Power makes sense with 276's - I have Schrick 276's and my max power is 7K - max torque is 5.5K however.
Not sure why they call 276's 285's however ????????????
Cheers
Rob
Originally posted by ScottyP
Neil, have you compared sats chart with Gerry 16v's on this forum - the standard car has higher torque and power at the wheels! it doesn't make any sense really, i'm going to get mine tested again locally and have a word with RPM - ideally I want the chip mapped.
I'd say that you've got an AmD chip which is pre-programmed for a standard car, which your's certainly isn't. You need to have the chip installed and setup on a RR to match your mods.
I need to have mine remapped too, but last time it cost me £180 quid, plus I have to get to Oxford. Perhaps I should just go for throttle bodies now, but I'm meant to be saving up a decent deposit for a house. Do you fancy a lodger Scott, then I can save on travelling expenses to/from work?
It may be a reality soon Neil if things carry on the way they have been - i'll put you on the accomadation short list! :D
God...two loud modded seats out front - the neighbours would love that!
ibizacupra
21-01-2002, 13:37
Originally posted by neilp
I'd say that you've got an AmD chip which is pre-programmed for a standard car, which your's certainly isn't. You need to have the chip installed and setup on a RR to match your mods.
I need to have mine remapped too, but last time it cost me £180 quid, plus I have to get to Oxford. Perhaps I should just go for throttle bodies now, but I'm meant to be saving up a decent deposit for a house. Do you fancy a lodger Scott, then I can save on travelling expenses to/from work?
Throttlebodies?? Did I hear someone say? :D :D :D
Bill
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Throttlebodies?? Did I hear someone say? :D :D :D
Bill
You don't know where I can hold of some do you Bill? ;)
Wow what a lot of feedback just taken me about an hour to read it all!
Here are my thoughts.
All ready said but thanks to Bill for organising the day, I was please with the 159 my standard car put out and was standing in the happy corner with a few others.
The heat problem would account for some of the problems people were getting with the power outputs but some how when I sit back some things still don’t work out. The biggest being the discrepancy between the RSD modified cars and the APR versions. If the RSD cars produced from 188 to about 197 on the available cooling then why not the APR version?
If there was enough cooling capacity to cool the intake to produce 159 standard and max 197 chipped then the upper expected limit would be 197 the ECU then backing off due to heatsoak .
I would have loved for the APR cars to do well and I am still thinking of getting one, but if a little bit of overheating can kill it I am not sure. Something upset them but I am not sure what, I look forward to the results from the next RR session. Perhaps on the next session someone should try a run with what could be considered inadequate cooling just to see how sensitive these chipped cars are? Do we all need larger intercoolers or water injection?
Originally posted by Phelpo
Perhaps on the next session someone should try a run with what could be considered inadequate cooling just to see how sensitive these chipped cars are? Do we all need larger intercoolers or water injection?
Great idea! Remember that one Bill/Mark.
I noticed that they sprayed the BulleTT's intercooler with water, but no one else was given this "special" (or should that be required) treatment.
short of laying out a red carpet onto the rollers, there is not much else they could have done for that tt!:D
its all in the badge...
By the way, who owned that RUF badged Porsche parked outside in the afternoon, man that was nice!
ibizacupra
21-01-2002, 16:43
Originally posted by ScottyP
By the way, who owned that RUF badged Porsche parked outside in the afternoon, man that was nice!
That would be Rod the demon parts guy from C.D.Bramalls Chelt.
He's a friend... very nice helpful guy.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
21-01-2002, 16:56
Originally posted by Phelpo
Wow what a lot of feedback just taken me about an hour to read it all!
Here are my thoughts.
All ready said but thanks to Bill for organising the day, I was please with the 159 my standard car put out and was standing in the happy corner with a few others.
The heat problem would account for some of the problems people were getting with the power outputs but some how when I sit back some things still don’t work out. The biggest being the discrepancy between the RSD modified cars and the APR versions. If the RSD cars produced from 188 to about 197 on the available cooling then why not the APR version?
If there was enough cooling capacity to cool the intake to produce 159 standard and max 197 chipped then the upper expected limit would be 197 the ECU then backing off due to heatsoak .
I would have loved for the APR cars to do well and I am still thinking of getting one, but if a little bit of overheating can kill it I am not sure. Something upset them but I am not sure what, I look forward to the results from the next RR session. Perhaps on the next session someone should try a run with what could be considered inadequate cooling just to see how sensitive these chipped cars are? Do we all need larger intercoolers or water injection?
I think this difference would be between the actual boost/fuel/ignition settings between the Oettinger & APR chips. APR claim higher torque outputs than Oettinger, and their boost is higher I believe... 14.5 vs 12 psi APR-Oettinger respectively.
APR's torque is said to be 230-240lb/ft where Oettingers is ~200-210. The higher the desired output the greater the heatsoak and the less actual power on the rollers on Saturday.
From peoples comments on driving/riding as APR'd car, they do certainly deliver the goods in performance and smiles/mile terms.
I will probably be doing a comparison against mine of Oettinger to APR in controlled conditions, to see if I really do have a lemon car. This will be on a VAG specialists rollers, where conditions can be optimised to allow the true performances to be determined.
Do we Need larger intercoolers on boosted cars?
Yes - I think you do, OR at least water spray cooling.
Jabbasports Chargecooled Ibiza and Golf have a very nice solution I think to this.
As a comparison, before Xmas when I ran at PS rollers, I did datalog the power runs for intake charge temp. It rose to a maximum of 85 degrees C... This was on a 4th repeat power run, so things had got very hot. Power read 174bhp!
Once heatsoaked like that, the thing takes simply ages to recover.
On the road doing my block#120 datalogging on VAG-COM, I saw a temp rise from 20'C to 47'C in only a 25 second full throttle run, in 4th gear from approx 2000rpm to 6500rpm. This was on the road and the speeds went over 120mph (private road of course!) Despite 120mph wind passing through the intercooler, the charge temp was still climbing during the power run...
To summarise, it is too small on a boosted car, just about OK for a standard car.
The Jabbasport car, is said to maintain a 20'C chargetemp regardless with its chargecooling. This has to be a good thing.
regards
Bill
I hope the APR thing is just heatsoak, the reports I have read have all been very positive.
As you say we must be on the limit of a standard intercooler and if we are to get the best from chipped motors we need to sort the intercooler as well. The Jabbasport charge cooler sounds interesting, how does it work, or is it a secret?
Petrolhead Paul
21-01-2002, 17:33
Originally posted by ibizacupra
[B]
I think this difference would be between the actual boost/fuel/ignition settings between the Oettinger & APR chips. APR claim higher torque outputs than Oettinger, and their boost is higher I believe... 14.5 vs 12 psi APR-Oettinger respectively.
APR's torque is said to be 230-240lb/ft where Oettingers is ~200-210. The higher the desired output the greater the heatsoak and the less actual power on the rollers on Saturday.
From peoples comments on driving/riding as APR'd car, they do certainly deliver the goods in performance and smiles/mile terms.
Until we have a hot summer, then a chargecooler/front mounted intercooler might be vital to get the best out of it. So who does these? I think the guys who fitted my Blitz (DS Eng) mentioned they were going to offer a front mounted intercooler for the Ibiza (due to a request from an existing customer), probably using Forge kit if I remember correctly.
And I'm sure APR will offer them as well if they prove to be required.
On the RR day the chip only conversions couldn't hack the heat, the Ibizas which faired better had either the charge cooler (Jabba) or revised turbo intake pipes (Oettinger) which might account for the better intake flow/temps as well as perhaps different boost pressures.
Steve3961
21-01-2002, 18:29
I have to say tho that there is one thing made me laugh more than once!
Did anyone else see the PVW bloke guarding his bird:D
Everytime he spoke to anyone about their car he would go running back over to her!:D :D :D
It was like he was scared she would get lost or bugger off with one of us!:cool:
Sorry mate but Ive got higher standards than that!:cheers:
ibizacupra
21-01-2002, 19:04
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Until we have a hot summer, then a chargecooler/front mounted intercooler might be vital to get the best out of it. So who does these? I think the guys who fitted my Blitz (DS Eng) mentioned they were going to offer a front mounted intercooler for the Ibiza (due to a request from an existing customer), probably using Forge kit if I remember correctly.
And I'm sure APR will offer them as well if they prove to be required.
On the RR day the chip only conversions couldn't hack the heat, the Ibizas which faired better had either the charge cooler (Jabba) or revised turbo intake pipes (Oettinger) which might account for the better intake flow/temps as well as perhaps different boost pressures.
Excellent point about the intake pipe on our Oettinger ones. I had forgotten that (duh!)
The Forge intercoolers are big money though... I like the idea of the additional Chargecooler as it is compact, leaves the factory on in situ, and does cause long pipe runs, which would likely be a pain to route in the little Ibiza engine bay.
Another thing of note, was the velocity of the exhaust gas coming out of my Miltek systems pipes. It was huge and hissed on full chat. I put my hand down about 18" away from it to feel the velocity, and it blew my hand away (and burnt it ! stupid Bill), but there was a massive velocity coming out of it. What comes out, must get sucked in... The little air inlet to the factory airbox has to be restrictive.... The turbo inlet HAS to be a factor here especially on the modded cars.
Going to be looking at my Airbox and BMC kit now seriously. 3" inlet to it.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
21-01-2002, 19:09
Originally posted by Phelpo
I hope the APR thing is just heatsoak, the reports I have read have all been very positive.
As you say we must be on the limit of a standard intercooler and if we are to get the best from chipped motors we need to sort the intercooler as well. The Jabbasport charge cooler sounds interesting, how does it work, or is it a secret?
The charge cooler is a water intercooler, and has a seperate radiator and pump recirculating the coolant. Jabbasport ingeniously use the washer bottle as the coolant expansion/recirculation tank, so for the winter months you get an additional benefit of heated washer fluid! :D Have to keep it topped up though of course.
The smaller radiator is added in front of the others.
Water conducts heat better than air, so the chargecooler effeciency given a suitably sized water radiator, will be better than an air to air intercooler.
regards
Bill
I've been using optimax for a couple of weeks doing my own trial. I filled up on Friday night ready for Saturday at the same station, but on saturday the car felt flat all the way to PS and back as well. I stopped on the A14 near Corby and put some Esso 95Ron in and the car has been going like a rocket. The mate I had with me noticed the difference straight away. May be dodgy petrol from Shell???? I don't know if this affected the dyno but it certainly made a difference on the road.
i have noticed the same sort of thing on my car, i wonder why?
dave
Not conclusive unfortunately, and for Oettinger cars, not bad.... for a couple of guys. (Ben, Paul) - Why a +10bhp to 12bhp gain for them over mine and Lee's? I don't know.
were your 2 both on the bigger wheels ?????
ibizacupra
22-01-2002, 20:20
Originally posted by flapper
Not conclusive unfortunately, and for Oettinger cars, not bad.... for a couple of guys. (Ben, Paul) - Why a +10bhp to 12bhp gain for them over mine and Lee's? I don't know.
were your 2 both on the bigger wheels ?????
Lee & Ben on 17's.
Ben on standard 16's
Me on 16's but wider.
Bill
i got ya , sorry ben didnt even notice you had 17's on :o
ibizacupra
22-01-2002, 21:25
Originally posted by flapper
i got ya , sorry ben didnt even notice you had 17's on :o
shit shit shit shit shit!
Why did I type that????
Stupid.. thats why...!
Brain thinks one thing, fingers work for someone else!
Lets try again.
Lee and Paul were on 17's
Ben on standard 16's
Me on wider 16's
Ah, thats better.
Thankyou Flapper.
Dimshit bill's tired of PC monitors... can't type to save his life.
(poxy keyboard with sticky keys does'nt help. Bad workman blames his tools.. but they do stick! honestly)
regards
Bill
:sick:
The charge cooler is a water intercooler, and has a seperate radiator and pump recirculating the coolant. Jabbasport ingeniously use the washer bottle as the coolant expansion/recirculation tank, so for the winter months you get an additional benefit of heated washer fluid! Have to keep it topped up though of course.
Er, wouldn't hot washer water sprayed onto a cold windscreen in winter cause the grass to crack.... especially if yu have a stone chip in it?
one thing i don't understand.... if the Jabba car had a chargecooler on the RR day then why did it still appear to suffer with heatsoak just as much as the rest of us? Shouldn't the chargecooler of kept it, er, cooler?
Mark APR, do you have a timeframe in which yu exect the Ibiza 240bhp conversion? Weeks or months?
Also, will there be any discount to encourage people with different chips to switch to yours (Read, I have an Oettinger chip but I want more power.... to do this I need to change to an APR chip but then I have just wasted the money on the Oettinger chip!) ;)
Thanks
Ben
PS. I've lost the sheet I got from JabbaSport which detailed stuff they sell for the Ibiza.... was there anything interesting on there?
Revo Mark
23-01-2002, 00:13
Mark APR, do you have a timeframe in which yu exect the Ibiza 240bhp conversion? Weeks or months?
BenS1
We have some K-04's on order but we will be sending out injectors, fuel pump etc to head office in order to evalute. Once certain things have been established, we will install the K-04 and any other neccessary components on our car prior to our engineers visit. This as now been scheduled for the end of March.
We will problably spend the best part of a week doing the software and when finished, be in a position to finalize the price.
Our plan is to produce two programs using the EMCS feature i.e 180/240 HP for example. We will include the cruise control installation in the price along with all EMCS features.
Don't worry -it will be posted when ready.
best regards
Mark APR
Revo Mark
23-01-2002, 00:18
Sorry BenS1
Not trying to ignore you comment on a deal price for anyone with other software! But i will think about it and let you know. it is difficult as we have dealer commitments and the other problem is the removal of some of the software we have seen.
regards
mark APR....:(
ibizacupra
23-01-2002, 08:19
Originally posted by BenS1
Er, wouldn't hot washer water sprayed onto a cold windscreen in winter cause the grass to crack.... especially if yu have a stone chip in it?
one thing i don't understand.... if the Jabba car had a chargecooler on the RR day then why did it still appear to suffer with heatsoak just as much as the rest of us? Shouldn't the chargecooler of kept it, er, cooler?
Mark APR, do you have a timeframe in which yu exect the Ibiza 240bhp conversion? Weeks or months?
Also, will there be any discount to encourage people with different chips to switch to yours (Read, I have an Oettinger chip but I want more power.... to do this I need to change to an APR chip but then I have just wasted the money on the Oettinger chip!) ;)
Thanks
Ben
PS. I've lost the sheet I got from JabbaSport which detailed stuff they sell for the Ibiza.... was there anything interesting on there?
Ben.
The charge cooler coolant (washer bottle) only get warm.. We're not talking hot, and certainly not hot enough to crack windscreens.
As for the chargecoolers effeciency, the heatsoak is not just chargetemp, but combustion temp, internal to the cylinders. Jabbs's chargecooler even got above 30'C where they have never seen it above 20'C on their own RR. I would compare the results of Jabba's to APR's, where both companies run very similar boost levels, higher than our Oettinger ones. APR's suffered big time, Jabba's to a lesser extent. The difference could have been the chargecooling. - Pretty impressive I would say. Ultimately on a static RR, with repeated power runs, insufficient cooling time in between, all of them would heatsoak. Jabbasport decided not to run their Golf IV due to the RR operation and duration. Its spec would probably have got 250bhp.
I've not seen their sheet for the Ibiza.
Mike Truluck has done some big power 1.8T engines, and fits IHI turbo's on custom made manifolds on conversions I have seen. A Jabbasport Golf MK1 & MK2 have both kicked my arse on sprints regularly :(, driven my Maurice Reeves. These 2 cars are Ferrari killers. Respect is due. He can build a very fast engine, that has stood the test of motorport useage, being thrashed around many a UK trackday by Mr Reeves. We are talking 300bhp power zone here.
regards
Bill
Originally posted by BenS1
Er, wouldn't hot washer water sprayed onto a cold windscreen in winter cause the grass to crack.... especially if yu have a stone chip in it?
Thanks
Ben
PS. I've lost the sheet I got from JabbaSport which detailed stuff they sell for the Ibiza.... was there anything interesting on there?
Try Jabbasport website http://www.jabbasport.com/
Their prices are in my opinion very reasonable, don't seem to want to rip people off. Their KO4 for the Ibiza is £745 +vat, Boost controller £95 +vat, high flow injectors around £70+vat. Basically they do everything to make your car up to 460BHP
I would think 240BHP is easy for them and not too expensive
Mike APR, thanks for the info.
Bill, i spoke to Mike Trulock (sp?) from JabbaSport today..... wow, do they have some good conversions. We are talking 8 different conversion stages STARTING at 290-300bhp, all the way upto 475bhp!!!!
I've started a Thread on it in the ibiza section.
The 300bhp conversion will probably be ready in a couple of weeks and should cost less than £2000. They will have a Golf with this conversion within a couple of weeks which can be used for demos!!!! :D
BTW, at 300bhp the IHI turbo is only running 1 bar (14psi) of boost!!! Apparently the main problem with the K03 is that it actually restricts airflow at the higher revs.
Tempting.... very tempting!
Its another 11 months until santa comes again! (Ooo-er)
Ben
two grand.... but that only buys you a 207bhp upgrade surely.
lol
just joshing guys.
ibizacupra
23-01-2002, 20:44
Originally posted by BenS1
Mike APR, thanks for the info.
Bill, i spoke to Mike Trulock (sp?) from JabbaSport today..... wow, do they have some good conversions. We are talking 8 different conversion stages STARTING at 290-300bhp, all the way upto 475bhp!!!!
I've started a Thread on it in the ibiza section.
The 300bhp conversion will probably be ready in a couple of weeks and should cost less than £2000. They will have a Golf with this conversion within a couple of weeks which can be used for demos!!!! :D
BTW, at 300bhp the IHI turbo is only running 1 bar (14psi) of boost!!! Apparently the main problem with the K03 is that it actually restricts airflow at the higher revs.
Tempting.... very tempting!
Its another 11 months until santa comes again! (Ooo-er)
Ben
Hence my posting above...
Mike Truluck has done some big power 1.8T engines, and fits IHI turbo's on custom made manifolds on conversions I have seen. A Jabbasport Golf MK1 & MK2 have both kicked my arse on sprints regularly , driven my Maurice Reeves. These 2 cars are Ferrari killers. Respect is due. He can build a very fast engine, that has stood the test of motorport useage, being thrashed around many a UK trackday by Mr Reeves. We are talking 300bhp power zone here.
regards
Bill
With all the talk about heatsoak, does anyone (esp MarkAPR, Vince?) believe that there is any mileage in fitting an extra air/oil cooler with thermostatic sandwich plate. Keeping the oil temp down must surely help?
Comedy Si
24-01-2002, 20:17
Guys
I still think you're missing a vital point here...
It's all very well you saying that the higher-boost cars are down on RR recorded power because of heat soak. I'll believe you on that one, but I'm still sceptical that it contributes SO much power difference (after all, as it's been proved the stock Ibiza's were putting out stock power...)
BUT BUT BUT BUT...
VAG quote 156bhp for their car, and it develops 156bhp
Oettinger quote 195bhp for their car...tell me how they prove this????? If it's proved by being on a RR, then where's the graph to prove it? There's been lots of chats on here saying the higher boost car can never produce that power becasue of 'inadequate air cooling'...in which case, WHERE DO THEY CONFIRM THAT THEIR CAR PRODUCES 195BHP????? Where was this figure obtained? How?
I agree that the chipped cars are more powerful and faster than stock, BUT it seems the 195bhp figure is completely unsubstantiated. If a RR won't prove that figure, then how can they quote it?
BUt again to reiterate what I said ages ago, if you enjoy your car and it makes you smile to drive it, then drive it and smile - and don't let anything worry you!
Si do yourself a favour and look at the dyno sheets again.
Notice!! the one most important piece of evidence, higher Torque levels on all the chipped cars.
That doesnt come out of thin air.
The standard cars are running normal boost levels so are not overheating so produce more accurate BHP levels, but their torque levels are well down anything from 30-50lbft and the most important thing is to have torque.
Without torque BHP means nothing. You'll notice also most of the chipped cars were peaking at around 4500rpm this is because they have hit a mark where they are running too hot, so the ECU has gone safe to protect the turbo or other parts from being damaged.
The simple truth is that the Powerstation needed to do short setup runs and run big fans ideally more suited to the VW side mounted intercoolers rather than front mounted ones.
Stealth and Jabbasport i think will give more favourable results to all the chipped cars, as well as good standard car results, as they know how to do quick setup runs, so keeping the temps at a minimum.
Comedy Si
25-01-2002, 12:50
Mark - but don't forget that the STOCK cars were putting out the standard and quoted torque too! I agree that the chipped cars ARE producing more power AND more torque - I'm jsut not convinced that anyone has seen the evidence for 195bhp. Lets not forget, 195bhp is +39bhp which is +25%...anyone can quote +25%, and my sceptical self thinks it is more likely they have jsut said 'roughly +25%' to equte to 195bhp, rather than having any definitive proffs of 195bhp. To reiterate, the chipped cars ARE putting out more power and torque, I'm just still to be convinced of the absolute powere increase over stock
Nah your getting the wrong idea. The reason the standard cars faired better is their lower boost levels, this prevented them from heating up their intakes etc as high as what the tuned cars do.
example: as bill has said you use a bicycle pump a lot and pump it fast it gets hot..correct.
Now without a doubt when you chip a car its turbo starts to work harder, and this will have the result of compressing more air faster, than it would do if it was standard.
So the charge cooler (intercooler) and all the intakes are getting hotter much quicker han they would under the normal compression of a turbo running at standard.
My car is chipped i know for a fact it would kill a standard Leon on the road and is producing on road figures close to what are claimed 195 to 200bhp.
Im having mine rechipped with an APR very soon, and im having a proper dyno done before and after by Stealth, Vince knows how to get the cars to give on road figures, that Powerstation obviously didnt.
We will see, and im confident that it will be producing what is stated.
Also again if you look thru all the dyno sheets, that a couple of the Oettinger cars achieved into the 190's in BHP. Due to them probably falling lucky and staying a little cooler than the other cars that didnt fair as well, some i might add with identical chips and upgrades.
ZBOYD
Are you getting a refund on the Oettinger chip then or are you just loaded and can afford to throw it away. What about Jabbasport you could get a lot more for your £700.
Just loaded thanks :D pah i wish :p
Jabbasport does sound nice, but i like the features of the APR and its EMCS system, which gives me greater control over my cars power characteristics, appeal to me more.
But would be interested in the Jabba chargcooler for a Leon if they develop it.
My reasons for ditching the Oettinger are not power related or anything to do with the product, im just unhappy with the level of customer support i have received.
I feel im better off with APR and am looking forward to having the conversion done.
My sentiments exactly Mark which is why i will be using them to do my 240bhp conversion.
Hi Mark
My car is chipped i know for a fact it would kill a standard Leon on the road and is producing on road figures close to what are claimed 195 to 200bhp.
I agree with what you are saying and it looks like all the discussion has come up with a logical conclusion
HOWEVER
How do you know in numerical terms what a car is producing on the road ? You know it is faster, yes, but how much faster in numerical terms is total guesswork - some well sorted cars feel quite slow (steady smooth acceleration etc) whilst other less well sorted cars that have power surges can 'feel' (seat of pants dyno) quite fast.
Cheers
Rob
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Just loaded thanks :D pah i wish :p
Jabbasport does sound nice, but i like the features of the APR and its EMCS system, which gives me greater control over my cars power characteristics, appeal to me more.
But would be interested in the Jabba chargcooler for a Leon if they develop it.
My reasons for ditching the Oettinger are not power related or anything to do with the product, im just unhappy with the level of customer support i have received.
I feel im better off with APR and am looking forward to having the conversion done.
Will it be done before the next planned RR shootout that Bill's doing. It will be intersting to see more APR stuff.
Originally posted by RobT
Hi Mark
My car is chipped i know for a fact it would kill a standard Leon on the road and is producing on road figures close to what are claimed 195 to 200bhp.
I agree with what you are saying and it looks like all the discussion has come up with a logical conclusion
HOWEVER
How do you know in numerical terms what a car is producing on the road ? You know it is faster, yes, but how much faster in numerical terms is total guesswork - some well sorted cars feel quite slow (steady smooth acceleration etc) whilst other less well sorted cars that have power surges can 'feel' (seat of pants dyno) quite fast.
Cheers
Rob
I can see many discussions getting nowhere with this one, this RR thing has already proven to be one of the most popular threads.
I think we'll just have to see when we get another more controlled RR seshion done soon.
All im bothered about at the end of the day is one fact,
DOES IT MAKE MY CAR QUICKER. :confused:
Answer: ?? YES THANKS VERY MUCH SO :D
Anyone with a standard car fancy wanting to prove a point then by all means we'll do the business at the next track day.
Alconbury would be good, nice long straight side by side from a standing start, no driver skill needed, just flat out pedal to the metal.
Chips may or may not deliver the BHP levels they state, but mine delivered the stated torque well actually it went one better. Oettinger's website state 210lbft mine did 211lbft at Powerstation. ;)
:cheers:
ibizacupra
25-01-2002, 14:26
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Chips may or may not deliver the BHP levels they state, but mine delivered the stated torque well actually it went one better. Oettinger's website state 210lbft mine did 211lbft at Powerstation. ;)
:cheers:
Mine also did 206lb/ft on the day and has done 210 and 211 at Power Station on other days. Torque is about right for what is claimed. It is a spike torque peak on mine though however, and not a real "area under the curve" level torque.
Power was and is less o nmine, and this is attached to the torque dropping as the revs climb.
eg: Peak torque of 210lb/ft at 2500 rpm was 99.9bhp at that point.
To get 207bhp @ 5900rpm I would need 207lb/ft @ 5900rpm.
Check the dynos and I get nothing like that figure in reality.
The equations being: bhp=(torque x rpm)/5252
transforming equation: torque=(bhp x 5252)/rpm
regards
Bill
Comedy Si
25-01-2002, 17:03
Mark
I like the look of the ARP stufff too, I think it's one of the best out there. Intereseting how a lot of people are now poo-pooing the Oettinger gear now though...
HOWEVER
I still come back to the point that Oettinger CLAIM 195bhp...BUT WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE? I agree the car IS producing more power and torque than standard, but where is the PROOF of 195bhp? This is my point...how could they ever have prooved the 195bhp claim if everyone says high boost cars suffer heat soak????
Actually, the compressor (ie, turbo charger) does not run any faster, the speed at which is runs is a function of the exhaust gas rate. The discharge pressure (ie, the 'boost') is a function of the pressure control, which in this case recycle gas back to the suction of the compressor to control discharge pressure.
The heating of gas effect you talk about is known as 'heat of compression' and occurs when you compress any gas.
If you'd like to do some calculations then for adiabatic compression involving ideal gases (not rigorously true for air, but is near anough) you can used the following equation -
p2/p1 = (T2/T1) ^ (k/(k-1))
Where k = Cp/Cv = 1.4 for air
Pressure is measured in kPa
Temperature is measured in Kelvin
--> Email me if you need any more clarification on this calculation
What this means is that you COULD (if you want to) calculate the turbocharger discharge temperature for the standrad boost case, and also the higher boost case of the chipped cars.
Further, as the gas temperature rises it's volume increases, which is why on many big industrial compressors you find interestage coolers to cool the gas down, there-by releiving capacity constraints on the machine.
Bill - I didn't understand your calculations, nor could I repeat your figures...can you explain further please?
You copied that didn't you Simon.................hahahahahahaha
Comedy Si
25-01-2002, 17:23
Dave - you cheeky begger!
Nah, it's just what you get when you're a Chemical Engineer....see, working on a refinery DOES have it's advantages after all!!!!
Seriously though, when I get time over the weekend I'll calculate the compressor outlet temperatures for different boosts. Isn't a stanrd car 8# (ie, 0.57barg) and the high boost cars 14.5# (ie, 1barg)?? If someone cares to confirm I'll work 'em out for comparison...:cheers:
Originally posted by Comedy Si
Mark
I like the look of the ARP stufff too, I think it's one of the best out there. Intereseting how a lot of people are now poo-pooing the Oettinger gear now though...
HOWEVER
I still come back to the point that Oettinger CLAIM 195bhp...BUT WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE? I agree the car IS producing more power and torque than standard, but where is the PROOF of 195bhp? This is my point...how could they ever have prooved the 195bhp claim if everyone says high boost cars suffer heat soak????
Actually, the compressor (ie, turbo charger) does not run any faster, the speed at which is runs is a function of the exhaust gas rate. The discharge pressure (ie, the 'boost') is a function of the pressure control, which in this case recycle gas back to the suction of the compressor to control discharge pressure.
How can it not run any faster when it clearly is?? Sorry im losing you, not a technician of house sized turbines :) so the maths however impressive it may seem is about as useful to me a sa chocolate teacup.
So how is my turbo now working better and more powerful than it was before? Yet able to run at the same speed?? and from what your saying sustain the same boost levels. Not sure im following your arguement.
I have a very distinct knowledge of how my car performed before and after its upgrade. Its not just quicker its very quicker and to be honest thats all im bothered about.
It could be 80bhp for all i care, as long as it goes like the clappers which it does.
All i can say is watch this space, a more accurate figure will present itself soon enough, if its down on power then. Then well i can agree, but these companies dont just pluck a figure out of thin air. (Ok maybe some do).
They would of proved a 195bhp figure by running it in an environment capable of sustaining a good road like temperature, and more direct fans to the intercooler position of the car.
As i was saying at the RR day, the actual best place to do a highly accurate RR run would more than likely be in a wind tunnel. :) McLaren fancy letting us borrow your tunnel for a few hours ;) as the temps and wind speeds could best match a real on road scenario.
All i know is those figures i saw on Saturday im taking with a very large pinch of salt, until its been run by RR that is more sympathetic to the cooling needs of the VW turbo engines.
If its still down then, well fair enough, maybe you have a point, but at the moment your spouting as much conjecture as i am.
Originally posted by ZBOYD
They would of proved a 195bhp figure by running it in an environment capable of sustaining a good road like temperature, and more direct fans to the intercooler position of the car.
As i was saying at the RR day, the actual best place to do a highly accurate RR run would more than likely be in a wind tunnel. :) McLaren fancy letting us borrow your tunnel for a few hours ;) as the temps and wind speeds could best match a real on road scenario.
Don't they just test engines on a test bed?
The dynamometer would to attached were the flywheel normally is (or something like that).
I was told they run em on their RR in Germany when they configure the chips. This is Oettinger i speak of. Something RSD can't do as they just sell a chip.
I think you'll always get varying figures on any car, that isnt setup specifically.
Like i run a RamAir filter and backbox, the Oettinger chips was never designed to take them into account, just a chip upgrade for a standard car.
So maybe i gain or lose because of the other modifications ive made.
This is why it'll be good to tune the car at Stealth, to see varying differences that may occur. Also not every engine will perform as the specs.
My car could of come out of the factory down on stated power or up on stated power.
Tbh im happy if its quicker, and that suits me fine.
Comedy Si
25-01-2002, 17:56
Neil
I am sure VAG put their engines on a test bed
I would NOT have thought Oettiner, AMD or APR etc take an engine out and put it on a test bed...? Of course, I could be wrong...
Si
Perhaps you should start another thread for the technical stuff, it’s looks quite interesting (well to me anyway).:)
Comedy Si
25-01-2002, 18:27
Mark
Sorry you're not interested in compressor theory. A turbocharger is just a compressor, albeit a smaller one, which has still to follow the laws of thermodynamics and therefore compressor theory.
For anyone that is interested I have now built a spreadsheet to explore the effect of discharge temperature dependant upon discharge pressure. I've regressed the data to produce the following simply relationship -
Discharge temperature (deg C) = 53.602*Discharge Pressure (barg) + 35.732
Thus, for 0.6 barg discharge pressure ('boost')
Discharge temperature = 53.602*0.6+35.732 = 67.4 deg C
For comparison, 1 barg discharge pressure equates to a discharge temperature = 89.6 deg C
A centrifugal compressor (ie, your turbocharger) can run in 1 of two ways -
1. Constant speed
2. Variable speed
Industrial machines, which have a steam turbine, or electric motor driving them, are CONSTANT SPEED. In that way they have a particular 'curve' which relates discharge head (pressure) to volumetric rate passed. Unless your turbocharger has some speed controller on it (which is hasn't) then it is thus a VARIABLE SPEED MACHINE.
In this case there is no definitive compressor curve that the machine will follow. Thus, as the DRIVER (ie, the waste gases) change speed, the speed of the machine will change. Therefore, the amount of power transferred to the charge air will change. This is the effect of lag - until you have a reasonable exhaust gas flow, there is insifficient energy to transfer to the charge air.
Now, the turbocharger DOES have a pressure control valve on it. It is this which increases the 'boost'. The discharge pressure control valve will 'spill' discharge gas back to the suction of the compressor (rather than 'bleeding off' to atmosphere which an atmospheric dump valves does). A car with a higher boost (ie, chipped car) sets the pressure controller at a higher set pressure, so allows the compressor to attain a higher discharge pressure before spilling back air to the suction. Thus, your chipped car is running higher pressure by setting the pressure controller at a higher pressure. This allows more combustion air to the engine.
Hope that helps...
Originally posted by Comedy Si
Neil
I am sure VAG put their engines on a test bed
I would NOT have thought Oettiner, AMD or APR etc take an engine out and put it on a test bed...? Of course, I could be wrong...
Sorry, I'd forgotten what exactly we were talking about, I was referring to manufacturers.
That's what happens when you're trying to get work done I suppose.
I phoned RSD today to see if there are any further mods I could add to my 210 conversion to increase power upto around 240bhp+.... they said that they could, but its fairly expensive (£4000 for 235bhp from standard, waiting on an upgrade price from 210 to 235bhp).
BTW, their 235bhp conversion would maintain the warrantee as with the 210 conversion (except they wouldn't cover the gearbox).
One interesting thing that they said is that with the Oettinger conversion the Turbo is NEVER putting out more than 12psi! They said that the 17psi that we see from the boost gauges is just because of where boost gauges are fitted. in the same way he said that boost gauges show negative pressure when idle which is wrong because turbos never produce negative pressure.
He also mentioned a "Stupid rolling road thingy" that happend the other day! :D Don't know what he was reffering to there.
Anyway, this was the first time I have spoken to them at RSD an they did seem helpful and friendly.... but then i haven't tried going to them with a fault.
Ben
Perhaps they could inform the site (Danny is registered) as to the correct fitment point of the gauge. Surely they must fit it somewhere to measure the 12psi.
Maybe Bill fitted it in the wrong place?? and Amethyst too.
Someone ask them!!
Originally posted by BenS1
One interesting thing that they said is that with the Oettinger conversion the Turbo is NEVER putting out more than 12psi! They said that the 17psi that we see from the boost gauges is just because of where boost gauges are fitted. in the same way he said that boost gauges show negative pressure when idle which is wrong because turbos never produce negative pressure.
Who warrants the 235bhp conversion? Is it a RSD backed one? or Oettinger? or another warrantee holdings company?
Do they just fit the same kit as the Leon 235bhp conversion? but still four whole grand for something that Jabbasport do for two grand shows something. And you can't slate Jabbasport for lack of development.
Revo Mark
25-01-2002, 22:18
Now, the turbocharger DOES have a pressure control valve on it. It is this which increases the 'boost'. The discharge pressure control valve will 'spill' discharge gas back to the suction of the compressor (rather than 'bleeding off' to atmosphere which an atmospheric dump valves does). A car with a higher boost (ie, chipped car) sets the pressure controller at a higher set pressure, so allows the compressor to attain a higher discharge pressure before spilling back air to the suction. Thus, your chipped car is running higher pressure by setting the pressure controller at a higher pressure. This allows more combustion air to the engine.
Hi Comedy si
I would like clear up a few points on the above quote. To simplify things- boost pressure increases with turbine speed- the rate of boost required is indeed controlled by the boost control valve, but this boost control valve controls the waste gate actuator which allows the gases driving the turbine wheel,to bypass to the exhaust and thus stop the turbine spinning any faster. The recirculation valve only opens when it receives a vacuum signal indicating a closed throttle. This stops the pressure build up in front of the closed throttle plate backing up to the turbine compressor outlet and slowing or stalling the turbine. This inturn minimises turbo lag and throttle response.
tried to keep it simple
boy this thread's getting to technical for me!
regards
Mark APR
It is true that a boost gauge positioned directly after the turbo and before the intercooler doesnt ever read a negative pressure, i have tried my boost gauge both ways, and if you install the gauge pickup in the inlet manifold you register a negative pressure because the throttle butterfly closes, shutting off the air supply to the engine, but the engine is still trying to suck air in!, i only found 0.5psi pressure difference between the turbo outlet and the inlet manifold,a nd have left it plumbed in to the inlet manifold so that i can see the pressures actually being forced into the engine rather than just what the turbo is producing, it would be nice to fit a boost gauge at both points, that way if you ever got a leak between the turbo and inlet manifold you would pick it up as a difference between the two boost gauges!
My Turbo guage (Fitted by Amethyst) reads 17-18psi when I floor it in 5th at about 2500rpm... Bill alos gets 17psi at times. RSDsay that with their conversion that the turbo is never really putting out more than 12psi.... not even for an instant.
The thing is that i believe Bill has attached his VAGCOM and got the same results as the boost gauge... so it does look like it pushes out more than 12psi to me.
Ben
Surely there must be some mistake - I remember Lee Chung saying it got 17-18psi....
I'm confused - If everyone here is getting 17-18psi on all the chips & it's backed up by the ECU data - then how come the distributors of Oettinger don't get it.....
Maybe we should ask MarkAPR dude. he knows I bet.
chungster
26-01-2002, 11:40
Hey MarkP.
Hope you had a nice break...you missed one heck of a comedy show down in Cheltenham.
To confirm your point, i most DEFINITELY did say my car does 17psi when you give it throttle, in a tall gear, at low revs (about 2000rpm.)
Paul B will confirm this as I showed him it on our way upto the Autosport show.
Even though RSD said the same thing to me at the beginning (never more than 12psi of boost), you do see these 17psi moments ON YOUR BOOST GAUGE in certain circumstances.
Now...eveyrone knows about what SEAT did with regard to writing their base program with a surge of boost at low revs...for overtaking manouvres or something. I have a feeling Oettinger kept this as part of their program, and so seeing this 17psi moment. Who's to say it doesn't do it in std (i.e. 7psi std, boosting up to 10psi in the same circumstances).
Amethyst also fitted my boost gauge...in the same place as all the ones they've fitted I guess (brake servo pipe or something).
You wonder how accurate the gauge is though, when you are cruising at 80mph...and you are getting -5psi on the boost gauge.
Its only at 0psi when you open the throttle a bit more. 0psi i take it nothing is being produced from the turbo, yet, I'm slowly accelerating (you hear the engine revs rise, turbo spinning, and speedo going up).
I didn't get it for seeing EXACTLY what psi i was running, i got it because thats the only bit of max muppet mod I really wanted (cos its amusing to see it swing about on full throttle).
For the majority of full throttle shenanigans, above 3000rpm, it always hits 12psi and no more.
Anyone got a boost gauge on a AmD/Upsolute/APR/Jabbasport Ibiza.....maybe they have the same kinda thing going on..if they fit it in the same place as us.
Lee
Comedy Si
26-01-2002, 11:44
MarkAPR - ahhhhhh a knowledgeble person! Excellent! That's what we like...!
So the discharge pressure control is in fact controlled by the turbine bypass control vavle...gotcha! That makes sense...and the recirc valve is there to stop the compressor going into surge...thanks for that, that's good information.
Check out this information below, which I calculated on my spreadsheet. It calculates the air density at the discharge of the compressor for differing 'boost' levels. Thus it takes into account -
An INCREASE in air density due to the higher pressure
A DECREASE in air density due to the higher temperature
Disc. P Gas density Density % Inc vs 0.6barg Disc P
barg kg/m3
0.6 1.651097707 0
0.7 1.723573743 4.389566743
0.8 1.794847304 8.706304653
0.9 1.865006114 12.95552686
1 1.934124571 17.14173923
1.1 2.002268678 21.26893937
1.2 2.069497345 25.34069521
For comparison, air density all around us is 1.2829kg/m3, water density is 1000kg/m3 at standard conditions.
Thus, for a 1 barg the gas density is 17% higher vs. a 0.6 barg boost.
NOW, this is the interesteing part...
I'm not sure if the actual volumetric rate of air delivered by the compressor is the same or not. I THINK it should be higher, which means you are getting even more than 17% more air mass into the engine...MarkAPR, your thoughts????
ATB
chungster
26-01-2002, 11:55
Is this a CAR FORUM???
Or have I accidently joined an On-line degree course in Quantum Mechanics - Part 3, the modern turbo engine????? :D :D
Lee,
Yes, i know the gauge shows 17psi and slowly drops back to 12psi and at idle drops all the way back to around -9psi, but RSD said that actually the turbo spikes to 12psi and drps back to 9psi and you NEVER get negative pressure even when idle! He said that boost gauges are fitted like this in all cars and its inaccurate.
I also spoke to Mike at Jabbasport the day before talking about my options for more power. I seem to remember him saying that the K03 on my cnversion will only be putting out around 10psi and a 12psi spike and the K04 will increase my power by giving 12psi sustained..... I thought "Hang on a minute, I thought I was getting 12psi sustained already!".
If a boost gauge doesn't give you accurate numbers on the amount of boost that a tubro is giving out then why have them.... if its just to see the neddle moving then perhaps they shouldn't have numbers on them???
The strange thing is that Bill has captured the boost on his VAG-COM which I would assume is accurate and it gives the same readings as the boost gauge.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter much.
Thanks
Ben
How do RSD measure the boost if not with a boost gauge?
AND where. cos then surely you could reposition your pipe to this correct location.
Originally posted by BenS1
If a boost gauge doesn't give you accurate numbers on the amount of boost that a tubro is giving out then why have them.... if its just to see the neddle moving then perhaps they shouldn't have numbers on them???
chungster
26-01-2002, 15:30
Ben,
No idea on that one, thats news to me.
Mark,
RSD have never (not that I know off) ever measured boost levels.
They go with what the actual program on the ECU says....and what Oettinger in Germany tells them.
But I think Bill did data-log some stuff showing the ECU asking for a level of boost, and getting this level of boost. Whether the way he measured it via his VAG-COM is accurate...i'm not too sure.
But I'm not too fussed about this either....the gauge was just another fancy gizmo I could add to the car! And I like it!!!
Same here.... just another pointless gadget that I had to have! :)
Ben
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 18:50
Originally posted by Comedy Si
Bill - I didn't understand your calculations, nor could I repeat your figures...can you explain further please?
The figures and calcs do work.
The formula for calculating hp is:
torque (in lb/ft units) multiplied by rpm (at which the torque was measured) and the results divided by 5252 gets you bhp figure.
My readings (as said before) were a measured 210lb/ft of torque developed at 2500rpm, which when run through the above equation gets you 100bhp (rounded to the nearest whole number)
Transform the equation to get torque required for a given bhp at its given rpm and you get:
bhp (in bhp) multiplied by 5252, and the result divided by the rpm at which the bhp was developed gets you the torque figure.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 19:01
Originally posted by BenS1
One interesting thing that they said is that with the Oettinger conversion the Turbo is NEVER putting out more than 12psi! They said that the 17psi that we see from the boost gauges is just because of where boost gauges are fitted. in the same way he said that boost gauges show negative pressure when idle which is wrong because turbos never produce negative pressure.
Ben
Total ****ing Bolllocks...
Pardon my French.
They know full well their chip overboosts, and the 12psi is NOT the highest by any means.
I have datalogged this previously last year and sent them this information.
Shows some ignorence somewhere does'nt it.
Negative pressure... Hahahah Makes me really laugh... They never heard of vacuum then! For christs sake.. these are basic principles. To be strictly correct the engine/boost guage should not read psi vacuum but mm/hg vacuum. The engine varies from vacuum (overrun & idle) to positive boost (on the gas) as the turbo spins up.
Very informed... Must have been tony you were speaking to.
Bill
:devil:
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 19:05
Originally posted by MarkP
Perhaps they could inform the site (Danny is registered) as to the correct fitment point of the gauge. Surely they must fit it somewhere to measure the 12psi.
Maybe Bill fitted it in the wrong place?? and Amethyst too.
Someone ask them!!
Haha.. this makes me smile.
The guage correct fitment is to have its feed from the intake plenum after the throttle body...
As for them reading inaccurately, then I guess the fact they confirm the factory ecu's own MAP sensor readings 100% would be a coincidence I suppose :D
The guages are in the correct place.
there is a lot of bullshit flying around here..... Crock of Shite!
Bill
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 19:10
Originally posted by MarkP
Surely there must be some mistake - I remember Lee Chung saying it got 17-18psi....
I'm confused - If everyone here is getting 17-18psi on all the chips & it's backed up by the ECU data - then how come the distributors of Oettinger don't get it.....
Well one of them does'nt at least... whoever Ben spoke to.
They ALL will boost spike... thats the only figure which even comes close to achieving their quoted torque figures... Spike is'nt real.. Sustained is what it should be.
The figures are VAG-COM ecu logged figures. They are real, and people with boost guages fitted see this for themselves.
Bill
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 19:19
Originally posted by BenS1
Lee,
Yes, i know the gauge shows 17psi and slowly drops back to 12psi and at idle drops all the way back to around -9psi, but RSD said that actually the turbo spikes to 12psi and drps back to 9psi and you NEVER get negative pressure even when idle! He said that boost gauges are fitted like this in all cars and its inaccurate.
If a boost gauge doesn't give you accurate numbers on the amount of boost that a tubro is giving out then why have them.... if its just to see the neddle moving then perhaps they shouldn't have numbers on them???
The strange thing is that Bill has captured the boost on his VAG-COM which I would assume is accurate and it gives the same readings as the boost gauge.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter much.
Thanks
Ben
RSD keep opening their mouth and confirming their lack of understanding of the conversion they actually fit. You must have spoken to Tony. Danny would have been the only guy to get a more accurate answer from.
You will see all boost guages have a -ve pressure scale to them as ALL boost guages should be fitted to the inlet plenum after the throttle body.
The comment as to inaccurate is again total ignorence on someones part.
I need some waders reading this thread.. the depth of BS is growing by the post :D :D
Bill
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 19:29
Originally posted by chungster
Ben,
But I think Bill did data-log some stuff showing the ECU asking for a level of boost, and getting this level of boost. Whether the way he measured it via his VAG-COM is accurate...i'm not too sure.
The VAG-COM ecu datalog Read Blocks gives you requested boost and actual boost. Thats how the whole thing is controlled, and is one of the tables adjusted by Oettinger to achieve the power gains.
There is no question of inaccuracy, the ecu is outputting these figures down its serial comms port.
Any inaccuracies are in the form of Total Crap being spouted by ignorence by various parties.
RSD have seen the ecu's output and know full well the boost spikes inherant in the chipped Ibiza software. The standard car also has the same boost spike but of lower level and magnitude obviously. The add x% to the map tables approach by Oettinger has just added to an inherant Seat feature.
I am glad I at least have this spike, as this is the only torque figure which actually achieves its claims from RSD!
If it only ever ran at 12psi... It would be absolutely hopeless. The only nice surge of torque is when you get the 17psi, then back to 14-15psi.... and it tails of down past 12psi down to 6psi in my case. The only people who must know the boost characteristics of their chip have to be Oettinger. They should be able to provide a boost vs 100% throttle across the rpm range then if they are that good.
I would be interested to see what boost profile they ran on their "cough" TUV approved run to get their 195bhp from chip alone.
Bill
Comedy Si
27-01-2002, 22:08
Bill
Some VERY good points there...I especially like your last point, re. the boost for their 'TUV' approved run. As I said some time ago, I'm VERY sceptical about all this now, and given that folks are saying high-boost engines are prone to heat soak and that's why no one was getting 195bhp, how did THEY prove 195bhp in the first place? Being highly scpetical of EVERYTHING in the 21st centuary, I'm more akin to beleive they jsut went 'oh hell, lets quote +25%' and be done with it...
One further point re. boost pressures....
You should all be quoting your boost pressures in PSiG - ie, GUAGE readings rather than PSi - which are absolute readings. PSiG - GUAGE pressures, are pressures ABOVE atmospheric - ie, what is all around us. Absolute pressures include atmospheric (ie, barometric) pressure.
Thus; 1 barG = 2 barA
Thus; 14.5 PSiG = 29 PSiA
Thus; -0.1 barG = 0.9 barA
SOOOOOOOOO...
A -ve reading on your boost guage, reading in PSiG, means it's only JUST below atmospheric pressure - ie, a VERY mild vacuum.
That still doesn't explain why some of the cars did achieve their figures of 195bhp or more and others didnt with identical mods though does it??
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 22:51
Originally posted by Comedy Si
Bill
Some VERY good points there...I especially like your last point, re. the boost for their 'TUV' approved run. As I said some time ago, I'm VERY sceptical about all this now, and given that folks are saying high-boost engines are prone to heat soak and that's why no one was getting 195bhp, how did THEY prove 195bhp in the first place? Being highly scpetical of EVERYTHING in the 21st centuary, I'm more akin to beleive they jsut went 'oh hell, lets quote +25%' and be done with it...
One further point re. boost pressures....
You should all be quoting your boost pressures in PSiG - ie, GUAGE readings rather than PSi - which are absolute readings. PSiG - GUAGE pressures, are pressures ABOVE atmospheric - ie, what is all around us. Absolute pressures include atmospheric (ie, barometric) pressure.
Thus; 1 barG = 2 barA
Thus; 14.5 PSiG = 29 PSiA
Thus; -0.1 barG = 0.9 barA
SOOOOOOOOO...
A -ve reading on your boost guage, reading in PSiG, means it's only JUST below atmospheric pressure - ie, a VERY mild vacuum.
I don't know what Oettingers test conditions were for their TUV approval on the Ibiza (I still have not seen a certificate by the way!).
On the road though, my intake charge temps rose to 47 degrees after a 30 second acceleration run on an ambient 15 degree wet day. Charge temps and airflow were real on the road. eg from 2000rpm in 4th to 6500rpm in 4th.
i had forgotten guage.. thank you.
MAP sensor output from the ECU gives you barometric pressure also, which is handy. Today it was 1000mbar. Last time I datalogged it was 1010mbar.
regards
Bill
Bill,
I agree with you all the way. I was impressed by the friendly tone of their voice at RSD, but lacking in knowledge myself I couldn't cnfirm or deny some of the stuff they were saying. Before we crucify them too much let remember that this is a game of chinese whispers.... they told me and then I told you, my lack of technical knowledge may of corrupted a detail or 2 along the way. HOWEVER, I work for a company that makes call recording hardware and software and our office phones are the test environment.... so guess what.... I have a recording of the call!!! I will listen to the call again tommorow just to make sure I'm not doing them an injustice.
With respect to them saying that the Oettinger conversion only produces 12psi MAX I have 2 comments:
1) Maybe the Oettinger program only request 12psi and on most VAG cars this is what you will get, but on Seats maybe the ECU adds the overboost (As we know it does on the normal program) and maybe RSD arn't fully aware of this!
2) I spoke to JabbaSort who were very helpful but they thought that I was only getting around 9-10psi out of my Oettinger conversion (With maybe a 12psi spike) and that i could get a 12psi sustained out of a K04. Again, don't quote me on this until I relisten to the call.
Thanks
Ben
Isn't that illegal without telling them?
hehehe
I bet some people wish we had that at work too!!
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 08:48
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill,
I agree with you all the way. I was impressed by the friendly tone of their voice at RSD, but lacking in knowledge myself I couldn't cnfirm or deny some of the stuff they were saying. Before we crucify them too much let remember that this is a game of chinese whispers.... they told me and then I told you, my lack of technical knowledge may of corrupted a detail or 2 along the way. HOWEVER, I work for a company that makes call recording hardware and software and our office phones are the test environment.... so guess what.... I have a recording of the call!!! I will listen to the call again tommorow just to make sure I'm not doing them an injustice.
With respect to them saying that the Oettinger conversion only produces 12psi MAX I have 2 comments:
1) Maybe the Oettinger program only request 12psi and on most VAG cars this is what you will get, but on Seats maybe the ECU adds the overboost (As we know it does on the normal program) and maybe RSD arn't fully aware of this!
2) I spoke to JabbaSort who were very helpful but they thought that I was only getting around 9-10psi out of my Oettinger conversion (With maybe a 12psi spike) and that i could get a 12psi sustained out of a K04. Again, don't quote me on this until I relisten to the call.
Thanks
Ben
Remind me not to call you on the phone :D
The requested boost just falls short of the 2200mbar max limit, and this has been hit on the occasion I logged it last year (before wastegate adjustment by RSD) Allowing for a small overshoot via theboost control valve, I did record a max boost of 2200mbar for a requested 2100mbar. The code is requesting these boosts, and RSD should know about it if they are selling it. My belief is they don't look at it and never have, relying on Oettinger to have got it right.
I don't think Mike at Jabbasport has seen an Oettinger car to crawl through the software, but I speak to Mike quite regularly and will send him my datalogs for him to look over.
Having seen the stock intercooling pipework at close detail this weekend, I would say fitting a K04 without improving the intercooling will be doing the conversion short. It will heatsoak. it starts to now, running to 47 degrees after only a 30 second full throttle blast, and its cool(ish) at the moment. What the summer will bring, with high heat, God knows. Its marginal that for sure, on boosted cars.
regards
Bill
Bill
I might be able to bring some very accurate pressure measuring devices to the Jabbasport RR session. We use these for ISO9002 calibrations and are very accurate.
Would there be a difference in pressure before and after the intercooler? Is there any restriction through the intercooler giving a pressure drop across it. If so the pressure at the turbo would be slightly higher if anything on full load to that of the plenum would it not. Therefore gauge positioning can have slightly diferrent results for different throttle conditions.
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 12:26
Originally posted by whelme
Bill
I might be able to bring some very accurate pressure measuring devices to the Jabbasport RR session. We use these for ISO9002 calibrations and are very accurate.
Would there be a difference in pressure before and after the intercooler? Is there any restriction through the intercooler giving a pressure drop across it. If so the pressure at the turbo would be slightly higher if anything on full load to that of the plenum would it not. Therefore gauge positioning can have slightly diferrent results for different throttle conditions.
I would expect to see some pressure drops in a system and through an intercooler, all variable dependant on pressure and velocity.
The ecu's own pressure sensor reads 17+psi and it requests this pressure from the boost control valve also. The suggestion that it does not do this is daft, as the programming asks for it. The boost guages fitted to various peoples cars, including my own, confirm this exactly.
regards
Bill
Icecavern
28-01-2002, 12:58
Look guys will you calm down....
I don't have a Turbo, have nothing to do with RSD, AMD, et... But I'm getting a bit pissed off with the obviously personal digs that are being thrown around in this thread. I'm sorry but I don't come on this board to read abuse..
Whatever your gripes, having a go at people isn't going to solve them, especially when it's behind their backs and you know they wont respond.
Sorry just my personal thoughts, this should be a site for adult discussion and I think this thread is getting more and more childish...
Pete
Isn't that illegal without telling them?
No.... but it can be very difficult to use it as evidence in a court of law if you don't tell them its being recorded. However, if you have a recording of someone saying that they are going to kill someone, and then they do, then I doubt a court will worry too much about the fact that they didn't know that they were being recorded (But then they would probably be let out after 5 years on the grounds of an unfair trial due to use of inadmissable evidence!).
I might create a WAV file of the relevent section of the phone call just so that you can hear it 1st hand and not through my chineae whispers. I listened to it again today and my interpretation is that they definately say that the Oettinger conversion never requests more than 12psi of boost.
Ben
Pete
Whatever, your thoughts, i WAS an RSD customer, and if they read this or not, their inability to look after their customers is a public issue.
Though i dont condone personal insults, their character is tarnished by their own actions.
People have spent a lot of money on conversions that may or may not deliver what they claim, i think its quite fair for people to voice their opinions however they like.
At the end of the day if you dont like whats going on in this thread, Simple dont read it.
Icecavern
28-01-2002, 13:18
I have no objections to having a sensible discusion on the ins and outs of all the different chips etc and whether they do what they claim.
I would agree with you that at the end of the day it's what the car drives like and if an improvement is felt that's important.
My gripe is the personal attacks being made which I think is rather childish and not the sort of thing we should expect on the site.
Pete
That'd be interesting Ben (sounds like a cool system)
I think that now we've hit the 200 mark maybe it could be restarted elsewhere? in two threads?
a) Power problems
b) Personal insults
Just a thought :D
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 13:32
Originally posted by CordobaPete
Look guys will you calm down....
I don't have a Turbo, have nothing to do with RSD, AMD, et... But I'm getting a bit pissed off with the obviously personal digs that are being thrown around in this thread. I'm sorry but I don't come on this board to read abuse..
Whatever your gripes, having a go at people isn't going to solve them, especially when it's behind their backs and you know they wont respond.
Sorry just my personal thoughts, this should be a site for adult discussion and I think this thread is getting more and more childish...
Pete Well Pete
As you say, you don't have a 20VT, you have no connection with RSD, AmD or whoever etc etc. EG. You are not directly involved.
The postings here are readable by anyone. RSD have been kept in the loop personally by myself re my own problems, and we have continued to speak about it. The fact remains however, that customer support, when it has actually been needed, has been lacking badly. What has been coming out is a lot of rubbish and misinformation.
The discussion is adult and factual (I speak for myself here) and all evidence is 100% substantiated and supplied.
If you don't like what you read, don't read it..
There is a growing number of people who have issues regarding customer support.
Bill
Icecavern
28-01-2002, 13:51
No, you are quite right I don't have to read this thread.
But I still think it's a bit childish to have a go at people. If you're that unhappy then get the conversion reversed and have a refund.
I also have to question how I would react, and what sort of support I'd give, if this is the sort of attitude I was being presented with.
Pete
Thing is pete the people who have grievences have attempeted quite privately to resolve their issues, and that didnt get them anywhere.
And maybe doing it publicly still wont get them anywhere, but at least others can be informed as to why said people are unhappy and for what reasons.
Myself im cutting my losses and heading somewhere else for better support.
I believe that speaks volumes in my opinion.
For the most part ive found this thread to be informed and quite adult in its views. Maybe directing a complaint directly to whom you see as the guilty parties taking a pop, would be better than tarring the entire thread.
Petrolhead Paul
28-01-2002, 15:02
Originally posted by CordobaPete
No, you are quite right I don't have to read this thread.
But I still think it's a bit childish to have a go at people. If you're that unhappy then get the conversion reversed and have a refund.
I also have to question how I would react, and what sort of support I'd give, if this is the sort of attitude I was being presented with.
Pete
Very good comment, agree totally.
At the end of the day, if a chip upgrade promises 195Bhp, then it should deliver 195Bhp and be demonstrated through a RR sesh with a dynoplot at the end of it as proof, if you dont get what they claim, then the company supplying the upgrade should make the necessary changes to make sure it does what it is advertised as delivering,
Otherwise, how on earth did the chip get iso9001 (or whatever certification it was) accreditation?,
My upsolute upgrade was carried out with no problems, my car was then put on the rollers and a dyno plot produced that proved the 210.8Bhp (should have been 212, but i am very happy with it!), the torque was also proved and was slightly more than it should have been,
I have emailed Mic about the chip with different questions and he has always been able to answer them either same day or next day, when i lost my original chip he offered to download and blow me a new one for free,a nd i have emailed the makers of the chip (in switzerland i think) and they have always responded within 3 days with the answer i have been after,
This is the sort of customer support all companies should be able to offer, the chip does what it should and the after sales support is excellent!!
Originally posted by Mosser
Otherwise, how on earth did the chip get iso9001 (or whatever certification it was) accreditation
TUV approval
but it comes i two parts - ISO9000 level (which is batch traceablity really) for materials used etc.
and this 2nd level which proves the power.
but it looked like the lower level on a cert i saw on their website.
BUT - i can't find one for the Ibiza (not mentioned)
still - I think Bill is asking for it.
M
Apparently I'm offending people... or products or something on this forum....
Just for asking questions.
So - whatever your problem - please direct them at ME - so I can edit my posts (if i'm wrong).
If I offend people - it's not on purpose - but I like debate & not just a praise the tuner competition.
But - if you live in bedford and i've offended you - you're real close - so lets make it up & i'll buy you a drink.
Comedy Si
28-01-2002, 19:10
Mark - I think I love you....
Now its becoming a dating thread :D
I hope not
like I tell people that ask - I like to learn. I don't have a turbo. I doubt I ever will for that matter.
I also know that RSD don't like me (or my car)
but what I do want is answers (that is what forums are for right?)
so - if i ask "how do RSD measure boost" i would like to know.
it's not "RSD are all poofs & can't measure stuff"
it's constructive questions for people that would like to know. I would like to know.
So please don't take offence - just answer or not answer - provide useful info - or otherwise. this isn't a personal thing.
Is there any way of capping this thread to stop people posting anymore?, and then starting another thread with the heading RR part 2 ?, it is getting a tad long!
Due to popular demand this thread has been split.
In the words of the great Ali G....."Check Dis" (http://www.seatcars.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2982)
Ta