lose of power / hesitation on acceleration. MAF? (leon cupra) [Archive] - SEAT Cupra.net

andycupra

06-01-2004, 17:23

hi all..

currently got along term problem on my late 2000 leon cupra sport.

It has an APR EMCS ecu upgrade. although problem is still evident in 'stock mode' although less severe.

Problem is when i accelerate through the rev range the power gets held back, usually from 2,800 rpm upwards. although is inconsistant when it starts. Also is less sever now the weather is cooler.

i have been to a seat dealer (no longer with us) who as usual said no fault codes, nothing we can do.

REVO took a look at the car for me, (thanks guys for your time on this appreicated). they did a few runs with a laptop and came to conclusion it was the MAF (air mass meter) holding back the ignition.

A pricey bit of kit, but i bit the bullet and got a new one.
Fitted it and found that it had the same problems but to a much more sever effect. The car then failed to start in the morning.

So another new MAF was got, with same results, although this time the engine magagement light came on after a run. The car did seem to run bit more smoothly with the new MAF's up until the power loss. my imagination?

found out at this point that with the MAF disconnected or with management light on the power was consistant throughout the rev range with no 'holding back'. Although maybe its hard to tell as the car runs with less power generally like this so maybe by passing the problem?

if anybody has any idea what it may be or things to try ill be very appreciative.

from a frustrated owner with 3 MAF's...

thanks in advance

andycupra

2000 leon cupra sport.

sssstew

07-01-2004, 08:23

hmm that does sound odd, cause it certainly sounds like a MAF issue if when you unplug its fine. My maf never logged an error but they dont unless they totally fail, a half failing maf will cause what you are having.

you need to measure a block in vag com, other people know what block this is, something to do with actual airflow over requested air flow or something, sorry to be so indecisive :redface: block 003 maybe?

could you not take it to the dealer now you have a new maf and an engine managment light?

andycupra

07-01-2004, 15:29

thanks sssstew!

as you say its weird.

everything seems to point to the MAF, but it doesnt get better when i have changed it.

Any thoughs on this:
two places (one a dealer one a parts specialist) have given me a part number of:
06A906461'D'
however the MAF that was/is on the car is:
06A906461'L'

both places said well that can happen, and you should replace like for like.
(talking to seat they changed to 'L' about 8,000 cars after mine.
maybe i should try the 'D' MAF?
any potential for damage if incorrect?

as for the ecu light. that got reset... although sure i can get it back at any time by putting the relavent MAF back in!

the block thing went right over my head, is that somthing a dealer would do?

thanks

andycupra

sssstew

07-01-2004, 16:04

you wont cause any damage by having the wrong maf in, so dont worry about that.

I would tend to put the maf in that logs a fault and then once you have the fault take it into the dealer, then they should replace the maf under warranty.

the dealer could do the block checking in vag com but from experience they dont have much knowledge about this stuff, better off getting someone who knows whos got vag com on their laptop to check. www.tdiclub.com forum in the tdifaq is a section i beleive about what block to read.

prc

07-01-2004, 16:26

Stew is right. I've enclosed pics of some results below. Pic 1 has a completely shot MAF.
RED = requested/expected value
YELLOW = actual MAF reading
BLUE = rpm

This one is a flat liner...:eek:

prc

07-01-2004, 16:27

Here a log with a new MAF. I'm not sure about petrol cars but on diesels you should get over 900mg @ 3K

andycupra

07-01-2004, 16:45

thanks again.

i didnt think it would, but i wasnt sure.

as for the warranty thats a sore point. Seat basically said there was nothing wrong with the car, (seem to think if there isnt a code fault then there is nothing wrong).
in mean time the original warranty has expired.
no worries i had extended it through dealer.
dealer goes bust.
i contact warranty company.
we have no record of it. (even though i paid for it)
called seat uk
they said "you dont have a warranty with us anymore. where did you get this number?... go away nothing to do with us". despite me explaining that this was an on going problem originally found within warranty.
seems they have no backup to their dealerships!

not a happy bunny.
so you can see why i am having problems.
MAFs are not cheap!

ill stop now, i feel a real moan coming on!

thanks again

andycupra

ZBOYD

07-01-2004, 17:15

Andy

Im so sorry to hear your still having problems, feel really guilty cause it was my motor :(

But i know other than the beginnings of a flakey MAF issue the car was mechanically sound when i handed over the keys to MK, it wasn't a concious move to get rid of a failing car or anything, i just wanted an R and the time came and it was right to change, in fact if there hadn't been a Platinum R available i would probably still of had the Cupra now.

I can't believe the hassle your having to put up with, i even got a tax reminder for that car sent to me months after i sold it, informed DVLA of the change as the garage must not of, its a poor show over the warranty to, makes me wonder about my own brand new car, calls to SEAT i think.

Wish i could be more to help to you, im glad REVO could help to advise you anyway, the chaps explained to me a few months back you were having these problems.

Hope something gets resolved for you soon anyway, and you can enjoy the car as i did when it worked properly.

andycupra

08-01-2004, 15:30

hi,

well dont feel guilty, i think SEAT should.

Just shame dealer when bust as i dont really have anyone to moan at.
The MAF certainly isnt the only problem ive had, i was very close to dumping the car on their forecourt and / or complaining to SEAT direct about the service i got.
Im not sorry to see the dealer go, just would have been nice to get the car sorted first.

I hope i get the problem sorted, as i know it will be a great car, until then i have a great looking car that goes as fast as Rick Waller on a moped.

(or is that like Nell McAndrew on a moped?)

andycupra

sssstew

08-01-2004, 15:51

andy something else that might be worth checking and is related to power problems on the VAG engines is the N75 boost control valve, if u can borrow one from a friend then try that as well. but for the petrols they are cheap anyway about £30 so might be worth replacing that.

theres loads on here about N75 valves and the different types, obtainable via a search.

just a closing thought.

best of luck :cheers:

ZBOYD

08-01-2004, 16:08

It has the old APP (pre VVT engine) in it, so it may possibly improve with a different N75 valve, some notice improvements with them others not.

N75's though i believe are not as expensive an item as the MAF.

Still looks great anyway Andy your looking after it :)

Hopefully somewhere along the way someone can help you get to the bottom of the problem.

:cheers:

Copra

08-01-2004, 20:46

Sorry to hear about this
Ive had no end of problems with my ibiza cupra since i owned it,and although ive not had a great problem with warrenty, ive had a absolute nightmare with one dealer. again, like you, my car was fine when the previous owner sold it,and like zboyd he seemed to be genuinly guilty when he found out.
Its so depressing isnt it.
The only good thing thats come out of it so far is that ive learned alot about these engines, and i know that the problems ive had souldnt ever come back-thats some less to worry about!

I too was going to sugest n75 valve, it does sound like the symptoms, i would also try that other MAF.

Hope you get it sorted soon. Lovely looking car :)
Mark

jacknelle

09-01-2004, 07:36

My sympathies as well. I think I'm experiencing MAF problems as well. The car pulls fine when it is cold, and then, when warm, is very flat above 3k rpm. My fuel consumption has also plummeted - 25mpg @ 50mph this morning, when normally I get 35mpg. I took it into King's SEAT in Portsmouth but because no fault codes came up they weren't interested. It appears to be a no-win situation.

andycupra

09-01-2004, 14:56

well seems there have been lots of discussions on the N75,so not wanting to startanother one.

but from the reading i haev done maybe i have a combination problem with the MAF and N75!?

As when i had the new MAF in it did seem smoother until the power loss, but the syptoms seems similair to those discussed on pages about N75.

as there is a asignificant spike in boost on my car i am planning to try the N75 'j'.

part number: 034906283J

i will let you guys know what happens, in mean time anyone got any comments or opinions let me know.

thanks again.

andy

Blucupra

09-01-2004, 17:52

Hello,

I recently had the same with my chipped Ibiza Cupra 20VT. The engined made a very whining moise through the rev range. Also the car didn't pull as hard as before.

The dealer changed the N75 valve and the problem was solved.

Hope this helps,

Jeffrey

andycupra

18-01-2004, 19:17

update:

fitted new N75 valve. not standard one though, i went for:

part number: 034906283J

results:

firstly i fitted it and ran car with the original - allegedly faulty MAF.
the car ran well and the previous problem seems to have dissapered!
:-)

so though hey now ill put new MAF in and it will run even better...

WRONG!

i tried both of the new MAF's that i have, both resulting in the same problems as before. one MAF called up fault only while ticking over!
this is weird, makes me wonder what i will do if MAF i am using totally fails.

Put original MAF back in and it has and still seems to run better than before. it not 100%
I hope it stays that was when the weather gets warmer as the problem seems alot worse when the weather is hot. but for now the car is a great improvement, the issue is not as sever, but still evident.

Anyway in repect of the new N75 valve, i have found that the car now runs with higher boost, (2psi higher).

Also found that quickest way to get about doesnt mean thrashing engine, but changing earlier than usual.

Fitment was easier than i expected, although the new valve has plug for wires pointing downwards in engine bay, not as original. The wires only just reach as a result... possible strain on wires? Anyone else found this?

engine note also seems more deep, possibly as original valve was falty?

thanks to anyone who has contributed to this thread. - especially sssstew who suggested the N75.

andy

andycupra

Copra

18-01-2004, 20:51

thats good news. Nice one.
Keep us informed of how it goes though, in a couple of weeks or sommat.
Mark:)

sssstew

19-01-2004, 08:38

cool mate... glad you got it sorted. you must have been as happy as i was when i went out for my first drive after fitting my new N18/N75 and my turbo was smooth and pulled well, after having the car for a year of bad running!

:D :D big grins

dunno why the newer mafs wouldnt work, but they might be useless now as i know that the mafs dont like alot of knocks so all the movement in and out might have done them in.

anyway.. glad you can get out there and enjoy your car... you nearly caught us out with that one :p

ZBOYD

19-01-2004, 08:56

Sounds like good news so far anyway Andy, glad your getting some results now, hopefully this will have sorted it out for you.

Cheers for helping you chaps too ;)

andycupra

19-01-2004, 18:08

Yes i plan to put an update in a little while to say whether its still running ok etc...

I think it would be good to borrow a standard N75 to see if its still ok running that. - if only to see if i have gone 'around' the problem with the different valve.

God i could go on and on...

Seems one lesson is if you are having probs that seems to be MAF, its may be worth gettin hold of a valve to try that first.!? especially if you can borrow one...

So whats the N18 valve sssstew? same thing?

thanks again guys.

have fun.

andycupra

sssstew

20-01-2004, 08:22

ahh the N18 is for diesels only, its exactly the same style valve but it controls the Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve, rather than the N75 controls the turbo wastegate. Us diesels use the N18 to reduce soot and N0x gas output.

so we have twice as much to go wrong! :mad:

prc

20-01-2004, 11:37

Originally posted by sssstew
ahh the N18 is for diesels only, its exactly the same style valve but it controls the Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve, rather than the N75 controls the turbo wastegate. Us diesels use the N18 to reduce soot and N0x gas output.

so we have twice as much to go wrong! :mad:

Then again we don't have dump valves going or those cheesy coil packs...:D :D

andycupra

30-01-2004, 21:40

hi,

i promised to let you know how its going after a while with the new N75 valve.

All is wellish still, has hesitated a couple of time... but even then it was only slightly and nothing like before.

Fuel economy seems the same as before.

Immediatly after a gear change the car pauses a little bit before taking off again, i presume this is just the turbo lag?

I am planning to put new diverter valve on, probably a forge...
so again ill let you guys know how its gone.

andy

Copra

30-01-2004, 22:41

sounds good. glad your car is goin alright now - its so depressing when theres something wrong aint it!
Mark

sssstew

02-02-2004, 08:40

Originally posted by andycupra
hi,

i promised to let you know how its going after a while with the new N75 valve.

All is well still, has hesitated a couple of times... literally 2 times... but even then it was only slightly and nothing like before.

Fuel economy seems the same as before.

Immediatly after a gear change the car pauses a little bit before taking off again, i presume this is just the turbo lag?

I am planning to put new diverter valve on, probably a forge...
so again ill let you guys know how its gone.

andy

hmm maybe turbo lag, maybe a uprated DV might help this, but im not a petrol turbo person so not sure about that, maybe listen out for the turbo see if it sounds like its spooling up correctly.

But its something i guess you will just have to monitor over 6 months and 6k miles really, the odd one or two funny things can usually be discounted.

anyway, as you say let us know how it goes.

Idealnna

06-02-2004, 23:25

Hi Andy,

I have the exact problem you had with my Cupra and have been pulling my hair out for the past 2 months. I have just had the MAF replaced today and it seems better but still when accelerating it hesitates around 3k then goes and then hesitates about 4k. Power also still seems to be holding back.

After seeing you posts about this I will now look at the N75. Not knowing what this is and how to fit it, do you have any pics or instructions about how I can change this myself?

The last thing I want to do is take it back to the SEAT dealer for obvious reasons!

I hope its this because Im steady losing faith in my Cupra.

Thanks
Neil

Originally posted by andycupra
hi,

i promised to let you know how its going after a while with the new N75 valve.

All is well still, has hesitated a couple of times... literally 2 times... but even then it was only slightly and nothing like before.

Fuel economy seems the same as before.

Immediatly after a gear change the car pauses a little bit before taking off again, i presume this is just the turbo lag?

I am planning to put new diverter valve on, probably a forge...
so again ill let you guys know how its gone.

andy

andycupra

08-02-2004, 18:58

hi,

well i just did a search for the N75 on here.
may take a while to find what you are looking for.

what is it? well im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but i think its a kind of electronic bleed vavlve?

anyway, its an easy DIY job. - i did it in about 10 mins with a small flat screw driver, and a medium sized one!

hope you find what you need on here, there are some pics on the forum not that i know where now.

if not, just get it, and compare it to parts under the bonnet, it is between air intake pipe after the Maf and the bulkhead.

Idealnna

08-02-2004, 21:08

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the info and I have ordered the N75 J model from VAGPARTS.

I hope it does the trick like yours!

Thanks
Neil

Copra

08-02-2004, 21:23

i have just payed for one from someone from this site, i should get it and fit it this week to my ibiza cupra, so hopefully should be good:)
Mark

andycupra

09-02-2004, 09:45

ok i hope it works for you too.

to fit it has 3 pipes and one electrical plug.

you simply remove pipes and elecrical plug. (hardest bit is getting off the factory fit clips.....) then replace as better with new valve...

just remember which way around they go before removing them!

Let us know how it goes.

andy

andycupra

28-02-2004, 12:40

hi all,

ok wel over due,

car is still running much better, i am still getting a bit of power loss / hesitation.....

just got delivery of a 007p diverter valve... (finally! post office is rubbish, despite me having reference number could thay tell me where it was.... no!)
should get it fitted today.

ill be on later or tomorow to say if thats made any difference.

andy

andycupra

02-03-2004, 14:24

fitted my new forge 007p diverter valve at weekend,
how have i found it....

firstly it took me 2 mins to change it. literally... easy!
:-)

so got in and went for a blat...

difference? well not alot really. But now ive had it few days i can say that good gear changes are rewarded more with this valve, the pick up is better, its lost much of the noticeable hesitiation following a gear change.

However i have found it is slightly louder than the standard valve.. i dont mind that as its not stupidly load... just bit more noticeable and not what i expected from reading review on it.

id say its not made as much differnce as i hoped, but it is am improvment.

Copra

02-03-2004, 16:51

piece of mind too mate - the std ones are known to fail:)
Mark

hamblyman

25-03-2004, 22:20

Copra

25-03-2004, 22:54

Andy.....hows the motor been running?

I have been keeping an eye on this thread as I have a similar problem. Unfortunately I am only at phase one of getting it sorted by the dealer - the "we'll change the DV and see if that helps" stage!!
Personally i'd say the MAF would be the first thing to change _ BUT im not a seat tech so fingers crossed yours is sorted soon :thumbup:

andycupra

26-03-2004, 10:08

hi,

the car has been running fairly well.
10 times better than it was, although i am holding back a bit as it was alot worse in hot weather so the summer will be the real test.

So far i have tried 2 new MAFs, although both were worse than the one in the car!
Funny as it does all seem to point to the MAF. - not cheap.

Then i changed the N75 valve... look up earlier in this thread to get the part number i used etc as it is not the original spec one.
This did improve things alot. - £30 i think...

Finally i have put on oo7p diverter valve (forge).
This hasnt changed how car runs in terms of acceleration etc... but does seem to operate more possitivly than the stock item. (less lag at gear change). - £85.

andy

mclmar

16-07-2004, 13:15

Hi Andy,

I have a 2000 model Seat 20VT Leon Sport (I think it is the same engine as the Cupra). I have had this since new.

I think my turbo has started behaving in the same way yours was. You'll have to bear with me as I'm not very technical when it comes to cars. Anyway, the problem I have is that at about 5,000 revs the turbo hesitates/pauses/stutters. It feels pretty crap.

My local seat dealer (based in Isle of Man so only 1!) test drove, acknowledged the problem but there diagnostic machine reports no faults. They have advised me to carry on driving until somthing 'happens'! As you can imagine, i've lost a bit of faith after this advice!

Do you think a new N75 valve will help? Is yours still ok? How easy to fit, is easy?

Any help really appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark

andycupra

16-07-2004, 22:30

hi,

sorry to hear you are having probs....

well i think it will be same engine.. APP... (look on top, front, offside of the engine)
(cupra's this age are basically re badged sports...)

anyway, with your hesitation....
its hard to say what it is... especially as seat are only able to read fault codes!
i never got any help with mine...

now mine did improve alot with the N75 changed... read another thread somewhere someone found the same..
although i believe some find it helps some not.... but your car is similair age so may be worth trying....

anwyay the hesitation did reduce alot... i still get it, but nowhere near what it was.
Leons do get this problem.... is there any difference depending on how hot the weather is?
mine struggles bit when its hot. as i believe do most..

the N75 isnt too much... about £30? something like that.
changing it is easy, it right at top of engine so access is no problem
you will need to get 2-3 smallish jubilee clips as the original ones are once fit only, you will render then useless removing them.

took my about 15 mins to change. hardest bit is remving the old clips..

where abouts are you?
id happily help out you could try mine before you buy....

one other hand my hesitation was earlier on in rev range..... so another area that coud be a problem is the dump valve....
you got a standard one? these can fail...

again, ive got an after market one.... you could trial.

generally check for lose pipes...

ukdub

06-09-2004, 21:08

i know this is a old thread but my 2003 model engine code auq is having the same problem
i have also had the apr upgrade. I was starting to think that the boost is being held back because of the charge temp because i have tried a new maf and a second hand n75 type c vavle and the problem isn't as bad but sometimes still there. What do you think?

andycupra

06-09-2004, 22:04

mmm...

well i do still have problems with mine, not that happy really....
the N75 J helped alot, but its not 100%

i was also thiking it was due to inlet temps.... especially as is worse in hot weather.

the car does sometimes run ok, - when the car does go well it pulls up to 6,500 rpm really well, i havnt gone higher but no sign of losing power...
i now also have an forge SMIC.... no difference... have to say im at a loss now.. seat are no help at all.

Copra

06-09-2004, 23:33

have you tried a throttle body reset?
from cold, leave the ign on for about 5mins and it will align the throttle body.
worth a ago?

ukdub

06-09-2004, 23:42

mine is booked in with seat on the 21st i am even thinking it has something to do with the drive by wire because it feels that it runs on 1/2 to 3/4 throttle even when my foot is to the floor

andycupra

07-09-2004, 00:51

have you tried a throttle body reset?
from cold, leave the ign on for about 5mins and it will align the throttle body.
worth a ago?

well short answer is yes i have done this, i few times!

i have the throttle body reset option with the chip...
never made any difference.

:(

andycupra

17-04-2005, 19:06

hi,

well what can i say:
after 2 years, 4 dealers, 1 new n75 valve, 2 sets of plugs, 3 new MAfs, countless visits to dealers, visits to tuners, calls to seat, 2 services, lots of my hard earned cash, (not sure of exact figure but its over £400) not to mention the hours spent on the car myself and the 2 years of problematic driving..

its fixed! :)

while its good to drive the car now, im still smarting from this, how can something that was reported to SEAT when there is still 4-5 months left on the original warranty cause soo much trouble and cost to me?

the fix?

wait for it...

PUT THE CORRECT MAF ON THE CAR.

yes you heard me..
put the CORRECT MAF on!

Still cant beliive it.
The MAF on the car was a differnet part number to what should have been on the car.
It was the same part number other then the last character. L or D

Unbeliveably the dealers just replaced like for like what was on the car.
One even said they updated the MAF and that was why the part number was different to that showing against the chassis!

Im soo annoyed. This is unbelievable. How can this happen?
The previous owner isnt aware of the MAF being changed, the part that was on the car is from a later chassis than mine...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Copra

17-04-2005, 22:03

Well, annoying as it may be, just be pleased its all over!

jonathanp

17-04-2005, 23:01

andycupra

18-04-2005, 12:28

hrm interesting reading this thread, I've also been having the same problems ever since I had the APR software, have had the MAF changed twice as well, might be worth checking the part number I think

any idea what should be the correct part number for the MAF on a 04 LCR

No idea

Give a dealer a call and make sure they search using your chassis number and compare your to theirs. Dont be helpfull and supply it or let anyone look at the car to get the part number!