View Full Version : Blitz filter (again)
I would really love to get a Blitz fitted to my Leon for looks/sond/performance reasons. I've been reading the various posts about filtration levels etc. but still haven't seen a definite answer.
Can anyone confirm (please) whether the 20 micron filtration offered by the Blitz is safe to use on the 1.8T engine in this country?
Thanks
Mark
I spoke to DS Engineering today to ask about fitting the Blitz to my ibiza. They said that they have had a lot of Seat enquiries over the past few days, since a rolling road day at PowerStation!!! :)
Anyway, i asked the normal questions about water and dirt getting through the filter. They said that if its a foggy misty day then you will get a tiny amount of water through the filter but this would not be a problem..... in fact there are some products on the market that spray a fine water mist into the engine deliberately!!! Obviously if you drove through a massive puddle without sufficient water shielding then you could have a problem.
As for dust, they said that it stops all but the smallest particles.... yes, some very small particles will get through but they will pass through the engine along with all the crap you get in your petrol. Dirt does not accumulate, it just passes through.
Anyway, I've got one ordered now. :)
I do still have some concerns though.... if fine dust isn't a problem then why do other induction kits bother with oiling to catch it?
I know Bill has had problems, but I'm not sure how he can be 100% sure that it was caused by dirt getting though the filter.... but Bill does know what he's talking about.
Ben
ibizacupra
22-01-2002, 23:30
Originally posted by BenS1
I spoke to DS Engineering today to ask about fitting the Blitz to my ibiza. They said that they have had a lot of Seat enquiries over the past few days, since a rolling road day at PowerStation!!! :)
Anyway, i asked the normal questions about water and dirt getting through the filter. They said that if its a foggy misty day then you will get a tiny amount of water through the filter but this would not be a problem..... in fact there are some products on the market that spray a fine water mist into the engine deliberately!!! Obviously if you drove through a massive puddle without sufficient water shielding then you could have a problem.
As for dust, they said that it stops all but the smallest particles.... yes, some very small particles will get through but they will pass through the engine along with all the crap you get in your petrol. Dirt does not accumulate, it just passes through.
Anyway, I've got one ordered now. :)
I do still have some concerns though.... if fine dust isn't a problem then why do other induction kits bother with oiling to catch it?
I know Bill has had problems, but I'm not sure how he can be 100% sure that it was caused by dirt getting though the filter.... but Bill does know what he's talking about.
Ben
Sadly I can be 100% sure it was dust getting past my filters and NOT passing through the engine. The oil mist down my induction trumpets, with the dust, felt like lapping compound to touch. The dust had impacted into the valve seats and cylinder leakage had started to loose compression on #1 and #2 cylinders. The ring lands had also suffered on the top compression ring, and the bores had started to score.
This was due to my forgetting to check the oiling on my filters.. and it was only a couple of months filter neglect during the summer. Its cost me a rebuild and was totally avoidable.
Maybe I am paranoid, but if can happen once, it could happen again. With my Jetta, I do regular engine checks and leakdown tests to monitor its health. These are early warning checks to minimise larger problems. The motor felt like it had lost its edge, and a running imbalance (small resonant vibrations though the rev range), hence repeating the leakdown test and finding the worst. :(
Don't get me wrong, I like the Blitz filter. It sounded superb on Pauls ibiza. Nice bit of kit. Dust proof though? Hmmm.
I have bene playing around tonight fitting the BMC filter as a trial fit.. Its very very tight. The Ibiza engine bay just is'nt blessed with any spare space. Got to get a couple of bits on order to complete the fitment trials, so watch this space.
The Hurricane filter for the 20VT Ibiza is getting close to be available, and I have my name down forthe 1st also for more development tests, and VAG_COM block#120 dyno runs to prove any benefit or not. The Hurricane does look to be an easier fit than the BMC, but it is smaller, which may work against it. Time and tests will prove which work best.
regards
Bill
Does anyone know what the bog standard paper filter can filter down to in terms of particle size?
ibizacupra
23-01-2002, 00:01
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
P.S. If I was that paranoid about engine longevity I would have left it bog standard with no chip.
Ah well, you would'nt have worried about the Oettinger warranty then and gone for any old chip.
<he says tongue firmly in cheek>:D
its a nice looking product, and it sounds the dogs in induction noise terms. I am not having a go at you for trying it. If I had'nt been burned by air filtration recently I would have done the same myself. It would sell on looks and sounds alone. - My Step son wants one now having seen yours on Saturday.. :) Yours was only 2nd in the nice sounding category to the TT Bullet :D
You should be on commission from DS though as you say. :D
Nice bit of advertising you did there. hehe!
all the best
Bill
ibizacupra
23-01-2002, 09:27
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Hell, people trust their Supra and Skyline GTR lumps to these filters - I should imagine they are an expensive engine to rebuild!
Definately!
Big money rebuild costs.
Owch, I suspect. More likely they go bang before they wear out when seriously tweeked.
Enjoy your filter... Great smiles per mile value for sound, looks and performance.
For me, I am likely to have My Ibiza for quite some time, so we have different priorities.
Enjoy.. :D
regards
Bill
Steve3961
23-01-2002, 20:08
Originally posted by BenS1
I spoke to DS Engineering today to ask about fitting the Blitz to my ibiza. They said that they have had a lot of Seat enquiries over the past few days, since a rolling road day at PowerStation!!! :)
Anyway, i asked the normal questions about water and dirt getting through the filter. They said that if its a foggy misty day then you will get a tiny amount of water through the filter but this would not be a problem..... in fact there are some products on the market that spray a fine water mist into the engine deliberately!!! Obviously if you drove through a massive puddle without sufficient water shielding then you could have a problem.
As for dust, they said that it stops all but the smallest particles.... yes, some very small particles will get through but they will pass through the engine along with all the crap you get in your petrol. Dirt does not accumulate, it just passes through.
Anyway, I've got one ordered now. :)
I do still have some concerns though.... if fine dust isn't a problem then why do other induction kits bother with oiling to catch it?
I know Bill has had problems, but I'm not sure how he can be 100% sure that it was caused by dirt getting though the filter.... but Bill does know what he's talking about.
Ben
How much was it?
OK Bill, so maybe it was the dust that caused the problem, but why didn't it just pass through the engne along with all the crap you get in your fuel?
Paul, you did get a good deal.... DS are now charging £150 plus £25 fitting, i believe you got your fot £130? Still, i thought if you got a bulk order the price would be cheaper not more!!! :(
Also Paul, you say your not worried about the longevity of your engine, but Bill said that he killed his engine in just a couple of summer months due to dust...... i presume you want the engine to last longer than next summer?
Anyway.... I'm gonna give it a go. If I get a problem i could always put the orignal filter back on and take the car to a Seat dealer to get it repaired under warantee! ;) (If Seat UK are reading this then it was only a joke! Honest ;) )
Also, you can extend your Seat warantee upto 8 years (3 years free + 5 years at about £180 per year).... thats what I will do, so I will never have to worry about expensive things going wrong!
Ben
ibizacupra
23-01-2002, 21:00
Originally posted by BenS1
OK Bill, so maybe it was the dust that caused the problem, but why didn't it just pass through the engne along with all the crap you get in your fuel?
Ben
I don't really understand why you say "all the crap in the fuel".
There are also fuel filters fitted to our cars, and dirty fuel has to be very rare. I have never seen it. I have seen corroded tanks and filler necks contribute to fuel line blockage, but never seen dirty fuel.
Just imagine a big cloud of dust being inhaled through the engine during its cycle. A good chunk of it will likely pass past the valves into the combustion chamber but some will get smacked by the valves closing onto their seats. IMPACT dust onto valve and its seat. On the exhaust stroke the dust gets pushed out again, if not trapped in the piston or rings and out. I only suffered inlet valve and seat damage, and cylinder bore and ring land wear. Exhaust valves were OK.
Dust got in past dry triple layer ITG foam tilters, did damage. That was the bottom line. It cost me, and I do not want a repeat.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
24-01-2002, 09:10
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Theres a few people fitting them to the new Civic Type R now, as there are big gains on this particular car allegedly.
The minute anyone with a newish car with a Blitz has a proven case of engine damage that is attributed to the filter then I'll take it off, but unlike foam filters these are designed to run dry.
Imagine the induction sound of a V-Tec on full chat with your Blitz filter on.... Roar... :D
They will be so tempted to keep accelerating just to hear it :D :D
Bill
I just wanted to let you guys know that this problem you have with the Blitz filters, has already been solved by the GTR OWNERS CLUB. If you go to
www.gtrowner.com/induction
you will be able to see for yourselves very simply what is the truth about filtration performance.
All the Microns in the world mean nothing against a simple Vacuum cleaner test. I hope this will set your minds at rest.
After looking at that test I think my mind's been made up NOT to buy the Blitz.
Anyone know where I can buy an Apexi?
Well done that man Tamiya.
pat on the back for your good self
Mark_349
24-01-2002, 18:15
So who is going to order a bulk load of those apexi filters from the states and get adapters made up?
Im sure someone around here has the facilities and abilities?
//\\//\\ark
chungster
24-01-2002, 20:27
One current APEXi importer is DP Motorsport up in the north somewhere.
I'll get the contact info if people want it.
Lee
Contact info. would be great thanks chungster.
The Apexi still looks like the safest bet and seems to give the most gains of all the filters I've seen tests on.
I don't drive my car through too many floods so water logging and collapse shouldn't be a problem.
Mark
ibizacupra
24-01-2002, 21:06
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Couple more links to add to the debate. APEXi does seem the best bet until it gets wet and it can collapse.
It seems every bloody induction kit has some kind of flaw or horror story if you search hard enough. :(
Re: The APEXi may be the answer but as the guy (Jan Shims post about half way down) admits he had previously driven through a flood:
http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1100337&t=2576#post1100337
And pay attention to barge and wellhungs comments here:
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=54341
I'm going to take a degree in air filters at this rate!
How about sticking your Apexi or whatever inside a box with suitable ducting for cold air feed. Splashing and water injestion problems are far less likely unless crossing a river.
Sound familiar? BMC and Hurricane (soon to be with me) are 2 products which do just that.
I am trial fitting the BMC to my Ibiza this Saturday at Autotechnik, and between us we hope to have a kit available by the end of it.
I'll resist any comments re filtration. :D
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
24-01-2002, 22:40
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Yeah, please post. Seems huge floods and freak clouds of microscopic ink particles are two of the biggest hazards facing us.
[:)]
LOL :D
hehehe....
Welcome to the wonderful world of motorsport bullshit.
Bill
Bill, regarding your commends on crap in fuel.... I'm sure you must of seen the bottom of a 0 year old Escort fuel tank.... more crap in there than a South coast beach!!! OK, so there are fuel filters but they surely can't block everything else they would become blocked themselves in a short period.
OK, lets face it, indcutions kits probably don't add enough power so that you would notice.... what we want them for is the sound. In my case i want a sound like a atmospheric dum valve but without the potential loss of power you would get from a real one. The Blitz gives this sound, does anyone know if the Apexi sounds good too?
Basically, i know the theory behind cars, but I'd probably struggle to change a wheel!!!! ;) So i don't want an induction kit that requires regular maintainance (ie. oiling).
Thanks
Ben
ibizacupra
24-01-2002, 23:49
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill, regarding your commends on crap in fuel.... I'm sure you must of seen the bottom of a 0 year old Escort fuel tank.... more crap in there than a South coast beach!!! OK, so there are fuel filters but they surely can't block everything else they would become blocked themselves in a short period.
OK, lets face it, indcutions kits probably don't add enough power so that you would notice.... what we want them for is the sound. In my case i want a sound like a atmospheric dum valve but without the potential loss of power you would get from a real one. The Blitz gives this sound, does anyone know if the Apexi sounds good too?
Basically, i know the theory behind cars, but I'd probably struggle to change a wheel!!!! ;) So i don't want an induction kit that requires regular maintainance (ie. oiling).
Thanks
Ben
Ben
Given that your car will be serviced at regular service intervals, you will be very unlikely to see dirty fuel to the extent that it wears the engine. Air and its filtration is the main risk. I have said my piece and will not labour the point any more. I have experienced this problem 1st hand, and it is a risk.
The dirt and crap you desribe in an old Escort is just as likely to be from the corroding fuel tank and filler neck, and not the fuel itself. 20VT's have fuel filters and they need the to protect the pintle valves on the injectors. They are small nozzles and could easily be clogged or have a distrupted spray pattern.
Anyone having had a MK1 Golf, Scirocco, would have likely experienced rusty fuel filler neck problems, where the fuel filler rusted away, letting a lot of crap fall into the tank from the rear wheel arch. Nasty, and expensive on the injected cars, as they sometimes had water in the fuel, which then corodded the metering heads and injectors etc. Again, I have experienced this 1st hand. The fuel itself was clean.
I have read on vortex, that the BMC and other induction kits pretty much all give a nice BOV sound, so there is at least a choice of what to get etc.
Good luck with your Blitz.
Bill
Hmmm, just read the review/test of the Blitz, HKS, Apexi and the K&N.... the Apexi gives by far the best filtration, best power and least maintainance..... anyone doing these for the ibiza? i want one!
bill, do the BMC and hurricane filters need maintainance (Oiling)? I like fast cars but I'm crap when it comes to doing any maintainance on them.... even changing the headlight bulbs is a mission!!!! :(
I'm not sure about the Blitz now.... especially if you think I can get similar sounds with other no maintaince filters.
Ben
ibizacupra
25-01-2002, 00:07
Originally posted by BenS1
Hmmm, just read the review/test of the Blitz, HKS, Apexi and the K&N.... the Apexi gives by far the best filtration, best power and least maintainance..... anyone doing these for the ibiza? i want one!
bill, do the BMC and hurricane filters need maintainance (Oiling)? I like fast cars but I'm crap when it comes to doing any maintainance on them.... even changing the headlight bulbs is a mission!!!! :(
I'm not sure about the Blitz now.... especially if you think I can get similar sounds with other no maintaince filters.
Ben
I'll have to let you know on the sounds.. BMC this weekend. Samco hose due to me tomorrow to allow fitment trials Saturday.
I know what you mean about the bulbs... especially the NS ones... Nightmare.. let alone mission !! :D
Hurricane is promised to me ASAP so I won't comment until I have tried it first.
Its your decision as to what you get for a filter, and you will have to decide on the pro's and cons of all the product offerings.
I am trying BMC and Hurricane first myself.
regards
Bill
Bill, please keep us up to date.... dirt is a conern for me too.
Basically, as already mentioned I want something that will give a nice sound (Similar to an atmos dump valve), more power (Not that you will notive 4-5bhp) and I guess the most important thing is that the engine wont go bang!
Let us know what you think of the BMC and Hurricanes.
Thanks
Ben
ibizacupra
25-01-2002, 15:30
Originally posted by BenS1
Bill, please keep us up to date.... dirt is a conern for me too.
Basically, as already mentioned I want something that will give a nice sound (Similar to an atmos dump valve), more power (Not that you will notive 4-5bhp) and I guess the most important thing is that the engine wont go bang!
Let us know what you think of the BMC and Hurricanes.
Thanks
Ben Rest assured I will be doing block #120 measurements and datalogging of both versions to compare to my previous as-is ones.
I will not be dealing with a product which I have not personally tried and tested. Its not the way I choose to do business.
i'll keep you advised.
regards
Bill
chungster
25-01-2002, 19:23
Here you go.
www.dpmotorsport.com
Tel: 01925 445174
They are based in Warrington, Cheshire.
I will not be dealing with a product which I have not personally tried and tested. Its not the way I choose to do business.
Dealing? Have i missed something, are you planning on selling these if the tests show good results?
Bill, whats your opinion on the Apexi? Any reason why your not trying it?
Lee, thanks for the URL.... don't suppose you know of something a bit closer to the SouthEast do you? ;)
Cheers
Ben
chungster
26-01-2002, 20:05
Ben,
Just so happens I do actually.
www.tdi-plc.com
Torque Developements International
They specialise in Jap cars...but are starting to cater for some European cars too.
Based in Barking, Essex. GTEvo knows where they are.
Tel: 0208 591 0442/0552/0321
Have fun
Lee
chungster
26-01-2002, 22:17
Sorted.
Cheers Mosser.
Cheers Lee,
Has anyone heard anything bad about he Apexi then?
From the induction kit comparison review it looks like it has very good filtration, very good power gains, no maintainence.... are there any downsides? Does it sound good? I think I heard someone mention that they have heard reports that it colapses when it gets wet.... has anyone else heard this?
Thanks
Ben
ibizacupra
27-01-2002, 20:44
Well... I have been fiddling around with the air inlet system and BMC filter on the Ibiza.
What stuns me is the terribly compromised inlet system the Ibiza has.. Its simply awefull as standard.
The inlet snorkle is of a tiny dimension shoved up under the NS wheel arch between the plastic liner and body panels. It breaths through a "straw" by comparison to the gas that get s fired out of the exhaust on full chat. The inlet snorkle breaths air from between the wheel arch liner and any gaps it can. There is no ducting for air to easily get in.. Simply amazing.
how it breaths at all, let alone produce any reasonable power is a total surprise.
I have taken digi photos of the factory install, and its an eye opener.
One other significant point of note is the outlet of the intercooler and its very squashed pipe run. Its horrible the geometry forced into the installation pipe runs they've chosen to use. Crap, witha capital C.
i have'nt got results of the BMC yet, as I believe i might have a faulty forge DV, which may well be leaking boost.... Further investigation is needed.. Other than a nice induction sound and a bit of a phutsssshhh DV dumping, no performance gains are "butt dyno" evident, but then again, I swear my car is getting slower by the day.
Bill
Hmmm, keep us upto date Bill on the induction kits.
Going off on a tangent a bit as you mentioned you Forge Dump Valve..... my understanding was that they were meant to maintain boost during a gearchange.... however, when i change gear i get a slight whooosh a bt like an atmos dump valve and the boost gauge shows the boost dropping off so fast that if i change gear when boost is at 15psi I'm very lucky to cache it at about 4psi by the time I'm into the next gear! This means one of 3 things (I think):
1) The Forge Dump Valve isn't doing its job,
2) I need to learn to change gear faster,
3) Shit, can't remember what the 3rd thing was!!!
Any ideas? Does the boost drop off really quickly with your Forge Dump Valves?
Ben
Ben,
The job of the dump valve is to drop the boost off as quickly as it can when the throttle butterfly is closed, the reason for this is because it is trying to stop the turbo slowing down too much when you lift off the throttle, and the reason for this is so that when you put our foot back on the loud pedal, the boost is instantly regained without having to spin the turbo back up from near stopped
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 09:54
Originally posted by BenS1
Dealing? Have i missed something, are you planning on selling these if the tests show good results?
Bill, whats your opinion on the Apexi? Any reason why your not trying it?
Lee, thanks for the URL.... don't suppose you know of something a bit closer to the SouthEast do you? ;)
Cheers
Ben
Nothing other than the fact I can't test everything... It takes time and money...
2 on the go at the moment. interesting findings... not good in some ways so far.
I'll post conclusive results when I get them.
Bill
Steve3961
28-01-2002, 23:25
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Well... I have been fiddling around with the air inlet system and BMC filter on the Ibiza.
What stuns me is the terribly compromised inlet system the Ibiza has.. Its simply awefull as standard.
how it breaths at all, let alone produce any reasonable power is a total surprise.
Bill
Its amazing isn't it!
Most VAG motor's are like it Bill!
The S4 sucks all its air in through a hole no bigger than a fist! with a 2.7 twinturbo you would think it would be a lot bigger!
Also it worth knowing that changing your filter is like changing the length of your inlet track, you WILL loose either power or torque at certain rev's depending on what the length gets changed to.
I think a longer track will give better horsepower at the top end loosing torque at low revs, where-as short track will give good torque at low revs and less top end HP.
This is why cars have varible track manifolds.
(ps this doesn't apply to turbocharged cars just spillin da info!):D
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 23:31
Originally posted by Steve3961
Its amazing isn't it!
Most VAG motor's are like it Bill!
The S4 sucks all its air in through a hole no bigger than a fist! with a 2.7 twinturbo you would think it would be a lot bigger!
Also it worth knowing that changing your filter is like changing the length of your inlet track, you WILL loose either power or torque at certain rev's depending on what the length gets changed to.
I think a longer track will give better horsepower at the top end loosing torque at low revs, where-as short track will give good torque at low revs and less top end HP.
This is why cars have varible track manifolds.
(ps this doesn't apply to turbocharged cars just spillin da info!):D
I know the gains/losses with inlet tract length, and the 16v VW engine is very sensitive in that respect to the induction length. Spent many an hour on the dyno finding the right setup for my direct to head throttle bodies.
As you say, this is normally aspirated territory though.
Getting a decent feed for cold air in, is one of th ebiggest challenges. If you expect the cold air pipe to actuall bring any cold air in, you will be dissapointed. There is no real way for it to get in easily.
The search goes on.
Bill
Steve3961
28-01-2002, 23:42
Originally posted by ibizacupra
I know the gains/losses with inlet tract length, and the 16v VW engine is very sensitive in that respect to the induction length. Spent many an hour on the dyno finding the right setup for my direct to head throttle bodies.
As you say, this is normally aspirated territory though.
Getting a decent feed for cold air in, is one of th ebiggest challenges. If you expect the cold air pipe to actuall bring any cold air in, you will be dissapointed. There is no real way for it to get in easily.
The search goes on.
Bill
I think the search requires the Charge cooler to be honest mate,
The engine bay is so crammed the under bonnet temp must be hideous!
This is the only way i can see this engine getting any cold air, well any worth worring about anyway, air fiter's are just for noise i fear.
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 23:51
Originally posted by Steve3961
I think the search requires the Charge cooler to be honest mate,
The engine bay is so crammed the under bonnet temp must be hideous!
This is the only way i can see this engine getting any cold air, well any worth worring about anyway, air fiter's are just for noise i fear.
Charge cooler is on the shopping list :D
Cold air induction is on my "how to find a decent feed for ducting into the airbox" quest also. The BMC now has a 75mm diameter pipe to breath through vs 36mm (ish) snorkle.
As for sounds.. yep it makes some reasonable ones. :D
Not as snarly nice sounding as Petrolhead Pauls though.
Bill
Steve3961
29-01-2002, 00:00
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Charge cooler is on the shopping list :D
Bill
I think the charge cooler is going to be very popular!
Iam certainly going for one as soonas the kit is available.
The chap at your RR day suggested about £300 for a DIY kit, have you heard anything about prices yet? or even a date when Joe public can get them?
ibizacupra
29-01-2002, 00:09
Originally posted by Steve3961
I think the charge cooler is going to be very popular!
Iam certainly going for one as soonas the kit is available.
The chap at your RR day suggested about £300 for a DIY kit, have you heard anything about prices yet? or even a date when Joe public can get them?
No but I can find out though.
I need to speak to Mike.
I'll let you know.
regards
Bill