View Full Version : RR at Powerstation PtII
almost a whole hour & no posts:D
Petrolhead Paul
28-01-2002, 21:20
Originally posted by MarkP
almost a whole hour & no posts:D
OK I'm going to have a pop at everyone and I don't care if you all hate me.
Lets start with Mosser:
Originally posted by Mosser
At the end of the day, if a chip upgrade promises 195Bhp, then it should deliver 195Bhp and be demonstrated through a RR sesh with a dynoplot at the end of it as proof, if you dont get what they claim, then the company supplying the upgrade should make the necessary changes to make sure it does what it is advertised as delivering,
Otherwise, how on earth did the chip get iso9001 (or whatever certification it was) accreditation?,
My upsolute upgrade was carried out with no problems, my car was then put on the rollers and a dyno plot produced that proved the 210.8Bhp (should have been 212, but i am very happy with it!), the torque was also proved and was slightly more than it should have been,
Mosser don't take offence but I actually DID get 195bhp on the day, under crap rolling road conditions which is more than can be said for most of the other chip conversions like Upsolute.
I never wanted to have the MOST power, I wanted RELIABLE power which is why I chose this conversion.
I'm not saying Upsolute's rollers read high, but you'd think the Oettinger chips had come out worst of all at PowerStation by some of the comments made here instead of consistently the highest bar the chargecooled Jabbasport.
Even Bills apparantly "down on power" example did relatively well.
I suspect he'll get much better figures at APR, Jabbasport, AmD or Power Engineering's rollers, as indeed all of us with chipped cars will.
A distinction should me made between knocking what is in my opinion an excellent and reliable warrantied conversion, and a perceived lack of customer support.
How do you explain my relitively not well Oettinger Leon then Paul.
Nice money for a 1.5bhp upgrade eh ;)
Super Smashing Great.
And its not perceived eithert, not by a long way
And to clarify i dont hate the product or people that drive it, use it sell it, smoke it whatever.
Its just my point of view, i prefer to be looked after, and have my questions answered sensibly, and not be ignored and get things like well we'll take it off if your not happy.
Thats called a cop out.
Not that it worries me much, just getting my opinion put across, and im gald if your happy with it, but some aint.
Petrolhead Paul
28-01-2002, 21:41
Originally posted by ZBOYD
How do you explain my relitively not well Oettinger Leon then Paul.
Nice money for a 1.5bhp upgrade eh ;)
Super Smashing Great.
Look at the torque compared to FastShows. The Leon suffered from the heat problems with distorted the power figs, get yourself to whatever RR day Bill arranges next with more sympathetic conditions and it should be well different. Don't tell me your car wouldn't piss all over Fastshows 190bhp Leon on the road, after all you said yourself it was transformed from the standard car.
Mind you if I ran a tuning company I'd rig the rolling road so all the other tuner's cars looked crap. ;)
"Seconds out, round 2"
DING DING !!! ;) :p :D
:cheers:
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Mind you if I ran a tuning company I'd rig the rolling road so all the other tuner's cars looked crap. ;)
Most tuning companies in the UK that use Rolling roads do before and after tests, so however in-accurate there rolling roads are you get to see the improvement you have got in BHP and torque.
Mines seeing the rollers on Thursday at Stealth Racing a before and after run.
So in effect the Oettinger Leon suffered from Heat Soak but the Oettinger Ibiza's didnt. :confused:
And i know the torque was higher, it was also higher on all the tuned cars.
But under the circumstances why didnt my Leon produce nearer your figures with the same tune up.
Maybe it was due to my Alarm system or maybe my In Car Enterttainment :)
shoot must remember to get them taken out :p
I wen tto that event expecting my figures to be poor, so i was hardly suprised. I'd will know before the weeks out anyway in a more controlled test what the conversion actually achieved.
But even if it does what it claims, i'm still changing it. Even if its more powerful than what im replacing it with.
For the simple fact is ive lost faith in the warranty and the dealers support.
I think that maybe half the problem here with people - there is no before & after with much of this.
No offence taken at all Petrolhead Paul !,
I was actually referring to ZBOYD's results, why should his results be so different to yours if this chip is iso approved to deliver what it says?, and why dont RSD respond to the shortcommings of his chip?,
Upsolute's Dyno run is actually done on an independent RR that they took me to, in fact some of the people that have had the upsolute chip havent even been accompanied by Mic so it cant have been rigged !!,
I watched the car that was on the rollers before me roll off the rollers, i drove straight on and all they did was put a different piece of paper onto the plotter, so no rigging possible!!, and i will be at the next RR sesh if bill can fit me in so we will see !!
You always knew Max Power cars were slower
How about someone who is pally with RSD (there are a few still right :D) could ask them to come on here?
M
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Maybe it was due to my Alarm system or maybe my In Car Enterttainment :)
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 22:16
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
A distinction should me made between knocking what is in my opinion an excellent and reliable warrantied conversion, and a perceived lack of customer support.
Paul..
When they say "take it or leave it" instead of trying to fix the problem, that does'nt qualify as customer service. its their opt out for cutting and running.
As I said before, I only bought the Ibiza as it could be in "210" form, maintaining the warranty. Only one player in the market and that is Oettinger as we both know.
As for reliable. I am finding that something is not reliable, as my boost is now dropping off as is the power, and the 5psi moments are regular now.
You are happy, and your cars running well, so good luck to you. Mine is'nt and the support is non-existent (except from Amethyst, whome RSD could learn lots off). The comments being said to have been made regarding boost and its programmed levels, is in opposition to the facts read directly out of the cars ecu. someone does'nt or has'nt looked at the data or asked the right questions, or not spent any time trying to find answers. Dissapointing to say the least.
Bill
Bill,
I was wondering about the comment about 12psi max
As i understand it VW & Audi ECU programs don't have this spike at 2500rpm (ish).
So - maybe RSD are confusing themselves by thinking about the wrong program - or maybe just looking at VW150bhp-195bhp chip results as opposed to SEAT/Skoda 156-195bhp results
just a thought & not a having a go - maybe just an honest mistake.
Petrolhead Paul
28-01-2002, 22:25
Originally posted by ZBOYD
Mines seeing the rollers on Thursday at Stealth Racing a before and after run.
So in effect the Oettinger Leon suffered from Heat Soak but the Oettinger Ibiza's didnt. :confused:
But under the circumstances why didnt my Leon produce nearer your figures with the same tune up.
Presumably the Leon is more susceptible than the Ibiza to said heat.
Is heatsoak caused by lack of cold air thru the intercooler?
If so - then the Ibiza must have a better intercooler postition as standard I guess.
Hmm.. i know where the leon's is - where is it on the beeza?
Think thats the trouble, too much presumption not enough fact, but as a customer i only know what im told, which is very little, so i go off what ive seen and witnessed.
But to be honest i think the Leon would be more effective at cooling as its less crampped in the engine bay, and now especially with the Cupra 4 front end i have more effective cooling than a standard body Leon.
At least you'd think that would be the case anyway.
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 23:00
Originally posted by MarkP
Bill,
I was wondering about the comment about 12psi max
As i understand it VW & Audi ECU programs don't have this spike at 2500rpm (ish).
So - maybe RSD are confusing themselves by thinking about the wrong program - or maybe just looking at VW150bhp-195bhp chip results as opposed to SEAT/Skoda 156-195bhp results
just a thought & not a having a go - maybe just an honest mistake.
Yea maybe.. but i doubt it personally.
they have been sent the ecu's logged figures last year. Its plain as day.
i am glad I have this 17psi, as its the only real go I have from the motor. It slides downward as the revs climb. Peak pull is at 2500rpm. which is low.
Bill
I just assumed that as they read straight off the ECU then it'd be correct - or the same correct as your results.
Do they have a machine to take this result or is it all taken from the fatherland?
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 23:23
Originally posted by MarkP
I just assumed that as they read straight off the ECU then it'd be correct - or the same correct as your results.
Do they have a machine to take this result or is it all taken from the fatherland?
Who knows.
All the oettinger cars with boost guages fitted have the same boost delivery, so it is real.
ECU output is real, and confirms it is software requested.
Who knows what the truth of all of this is. Fatherland possibly, but they are unlikely to "bother" themselves too much. (happily proven wrong though)
The software engineers and its developers are in Germany. The installers are in the UK. :D
Not too many people seem to have the knowledge or insight into the mapping, save for Jabbasport or AmD directly, and APR indirectly via their close working with their USA engineers.
APR do at least describe the workings and controls of the ECU, where some others don't. this to me seems like a technical understanding, which is important to me.
Bill
Perhaps they could ask a techie guy from germany to come over & look at yours if they've drawn a blank.
ibizacupra
28-01-2002, 23:44
Originally posted by MarkP
Perhaps they could ask a techie guy from germany to come over & look at yours if they've drawn a blank.
They would have to want to do that, and have to spare the time. I would'nt bank on it happening, and my patience has expired. this has gone on for months now.
enough is enough.
Warranty my arse. (not worth the paper its written on) When push comes to shove the reality bares to resemblance to the "sales " BS.
"Take it or Leave it" - yea right! Really helps the customer does that.
Bill
Now I know why RSD won't talk to me.:rolleyes:
By the way your mail box is full, people having a pop at you no doubt.:)
Mark Phelps (older)
ha ha
not full with that - just spam from people like jason (cock)
I won't go into detail about my personal dealings here as it's not relevant.
M (Jr)
ooooh - just got ur PM too
Originally posted by Petrolhead Paul
Mosser don't take offence but I actually DID get 195bhp on the day, under crap rolling road conditions which is more than can be said for most of the other chip conversions like Upsolute.
I never wanted to have the MOST power, I wanted RELIABLE power which is why I chose this conversion.
I'm not saying Upsolute's rollers read high, but you'd think the Oettinger chips had come out worst of all at PowerStation by some of the comments made here instead of consistently the highest bar the chargecooled Jabbasport.
Even Bills apparantly "down on power" example did relatively well.
I suspect he'll get much better figures at APR, Jabbasport, AmD or Power Engineering's rollers, as indeed all of us with chipped cars will.
A distinction should me made between knocking what is in my opinion an excellent and reliable warrantied conversion, and a perceived lack of customer support.
Weren't the RSD conversions supposed to be 207BHP (called an RSD 210).
As for my Upsolute chip I new I had a problem on the way down to Cheltenham. On the way home I refueled and the problem went and has never been back since, therefore I think I was probably very unlucky to get a crap batch of Optimax possibly water impregnation or something but the chap at Powerstation did say he thought something like that had happened by the way the power dropped off quick as though the knock sensor had retarted the ignition.
Like you say lets see at the next session.
Icecavern
29-01-2002, 08:27
There's a lot of discussion that's gone on here and to be honest MOST ( not all ) people are basing their opinions on the outcome of the RR session. All this why did mine do worse that this one etc etc has a simple explanaition.
You already established that the session was not conducted correctly, be it the fan or the length of the run etc. From what I've heard every car had a different length run, each car was different be it wheels/camber settings/bumpers..... Also each car would have been a different temperature when you arrived because of the length of journey and then the length of time the car cooled down for whilst waiting. Also it's a known fact that each engine performs slightly differently from the factory and it has nothing to do with the ECU.
So some Oettinger cars did produce the specified amount others didn't but the above could explain that.
Zboyd you'd travelled a reasonable distance and maybe the car hadn't cooled down as much as others. Also that new bumper might help cooling on the move but it might hinder cooling more when stationary.
Bill, I assume you purchased your car directly from the dealer with the conversion from new. If so then maybe you have a fault somewhere other than the chip? It's a thought anyway.. Also I beleive you run a different camber setting to get the handling how you like it, that would make a difference on the rollers surely?
Pete
The car had been stood for over 2 hours stone cold when it went on the rollers Pete :confused: The temp of my car hardly deviates anyway, thrashing round Alconbury all day, and the temp never rises above the standard 90 or thereabout degrees.
Like i say anyway im going to find out more on Thursday, no doubt whatever i find though will be poo poo'd. :)
And as you also state, yes we believe the rolling road wasn't run very controlled for these cars. Yet some who managed to get higher figures seem to think they have been proven right.
When i'd like to remind them i had the same chip and was down on power, and it was claimed i should be running the same power.
To be honest i noticed on the video footage i took, the cars that faired better had very short setup runs. Rather than like mine and others where he was pissing about with it.
But all this besides, the main gripe is lack of customer support, selling something and claiming it is something when it isnt.
Oh and remind me to show you my ECU next time i see you Pete :eek:
ibizacupra
29-01-2002, 12:20
Originally posted by CordobaPete
Bill, I assume you purchased your car directly from the dealer with the conversion from new. If so then maybe you have a fault somewhere other than the chip? It's a thought anyway.. Also I beleive you run a different camber setting to get the handling how you like it, that would make a difference on the rollers surely?
Pete
I run more -ve camber than others yes. The power at the wheels though is measured at the wheels regardless of contact patch. Mine had the lowest of the Oettinger Ibiza's power at the wheels.
The overrun figure for transmission losses did match several other cars on the day with different wheel/tyre combinations..
I have not ruled out an inherant non-chip related problem, like DV for example, or boost control valve. All of this though has either been off my own back, or with Amethysts assistance. RSD made their position clear some months ago.. Take it or Leave it. That is the customer relations issue I have with them. The warranty is worthless given that response.
Add to that the misinformation allegedly being made by them with respect to boost levels etc... and it confirms a real lack of the right technical understanding required to actually get to the bottom of a prospective problem. The take it or leave it leaves the customer stranded, and them walking away from it. Does'nt help the customer.
Amethyst, during all of this have been excellent and are trying to help me get to the bottom of the problem. There is another test being done this week on another set of rollers, in more controlled conditions, so I hope to find out whats wrong.
Bill
As I said before, I only bought the Ibiza as it could be in "210" form, maintaining the warranty. Only one player in the market and that is Oettinger as we both know.
Actually, you could of bought an AMD 200bhp or 240bhp car from SJBSport with a full warantee. I nearly did.
As for reliable. I am finding that something is not reliable, as my boost is now dropping off as is the power, and the 5psi moments are regular now.
I know Amethyst are very helpful, but at the end of the day your car isn't working right. Yes, your Oettinger conversion was fitted by RSD but you bought the complete package from Amethyst.... so if I was you I'd take the car back to Amethyst, ask for a courtesy car and ask them to give you a call when its working right.
Just to repeat, I'm not having a dig at Amethyst.... they are very helpful, but its not your job to chase RSD.... you didn't buy anything from RSD, you bought a conversion from Amethyst (And they bought it from RSD.), so its their responsability to sort all this out.
BTW, the Oettinger TUV approval is for 195bhp isn't it.... the extra mods that take it upto 207bhp are probably not TUV approved..... in fact it wouldn't surprise me if these extra mods invalidate the TUV approval status!
Ben
Bill, stuff the warantee.... go for the Jabbasport 300bhp conversion..... I'm VERY tempted. Got a few things to pay off first though.
The Jabbasport conversion has a choice of a 3 position switch to control boost to 3 different presets (eg. Standard, 200bhp, 300bhp), or a variable resiter dial to adjust the boost. It would be nice if you could have a 2 position switch for standard, 200bhp and a button on the steering wheel for the full 300bhp..... ie. your caining it at 200bhp but you still can't get past that Evo.... so apply the 300bhp boost button and away you go!
Sorry.... I'm dreaming again.
Ben
Originally posted by BenS1
I know Amethyst are very helpful, but at the end of the day your car isn't working right. Yes, your Oettinger conversion was fitted by RSD but you bought the complete package from Amethyst.... so if I was you I'd take the car back to Amethyst, ask for a courtesy car and ask them to give you a call when its working right.
Just to repeat, I'm not having a dig at Amethyst.... they are very helpful, but its not your job to chase RSD.... you didn't buy anything from RSD, you bought a conversion from Amethyst (And they bought it from RSD.), so its their responsability to sort all this out.
Ben
Bill
I am inclined to agree with Ben's comments, that if you bought the car new from Amethyst already converted, then they should really get it sorted. I believe them to be an excellent dealer, even with my very limited dealings with them, and I think if they put pressure on RSD you might get somewhere especially if Amethyst stop selling more converted cars until they agree to sort yours.
Good Luck!!
Forgot to say - you could go the route Zboyd is going and change. Ask for a refund on the chip mod and go to APR or Jabbasport etc and then you'll see what you're getting, as you say wasted your money paying for the so called warranty, backs up my comments before Christmas really, why pay nearly £1000 when you can get as near the same for under £400.
ibizacupra
29-01-2002, 16:26
Originally posted by BenS1
I know Amethyst are very helpful, but at the end of the day your car isn't working right. Yes, your Oettinger conversion was fitted by RSD but you bought the complete package from Amethyst.... so if I was you I'd take the car back to Amethyst, ask for a courtesy car and ask them to give you a call when its working right.
Just to repeat, I'm not having a dig at Amethyst.... they are very helpful, but its not your job to chase RSD.... you didn't buy anything from RSD, you bought a conversion from Amethyst (And they bought it from RSD.), so its their responsability to sort all this out.
BTW, the Oettinger TUV approval is for 195bhp isn't it.... the extra mods that take it upto 207bhp are probably not TUV approved..... in fact it wouldn't surprise me if these extra mods invalidate the TUV approval status!
Ben
I know the status and responsibility of the "210" package. It is Amethyst and I have been dealing with them about it. You are correct on that and I have said this previously. Where their supplier has washed their hands on it, makes things awkward for me also.
I still have'nt seen their TUV certificate for the Ibiza 195 conversion though. It is weeks since this was asked for.
Bill
ibizacupra
29-01-2002, 16:34
Originally posted by whelme
Bill
I am inclined to agree with Ben's comments, that if you bought the car new from Amethyst already converted, then they should really get it sorted. I believe them to be an excellent dealer, even with my very limited dealings with them, and I think if they put pressure on RSD you might get somewhere especially if Amethyst stop selling more converted cars until they agree to sort yours.
Good Luck!!
This is agreed.. No arguement from me. I have said this all along.
I do not wish RSD to have anything else to do with my car now, as they ragged it silly last time, which pissed me off big time, especially when they then went on to say take it or leave it, when I showed them evidence of no improvement in power.
I am looking into alternate tuning from A.N.Other supplier at the moment, and Amethyst will have to be involved when and if I decide who and what to do. I will not be parting with any more ££ though however, as I have already paid £2000 for a "210" Package.
The car may have some factory faults which are causing these problems, and they will have to be found and fixed. It is certainly not as good a car as when I first purchased it. It only has 7K miles on it now.
It is very frustrating, and very annoying to say the least. My patience has been good for the last couple of months, but D-Day is coming as I want a conclusion to this. This week, another test is due on another RR by a VAG specialist to diagnose any potential problems, and do comparitive tests of the cars actual performance. We will have to wait and see what happens.
Bill
ibizacupra
29-01-2002, 16:42
Originally posted by whelme
Forgot to say - you could go the route Zboyd is going and change. Ask for a refund on the chip mod and go to APR or Jabbasport etc and then you'll see what you're getting, as you say wasted your money paying for the so called warranty, backs up my comments before Christmas really, why pay nearly £1000 when you can get as near the same for under £400.
Well when you buy a car from a main dealer, with a reputable VAG tuners conversion, whilst still maintaining full 3 year warranty you have to be tempted to go this route. It was very appealing.
I ONLY bought the car at all because of these reasons. I would never have bought a stock Ibiza 20VT, it was too slow and not what I wanted from the car.
If the car was outside warranty, then it would be a totally different thing for me. Jabbasport would probably have had an IHI conversion order from me.
This is the first brand new car I have ever purchased, so full warranty was essential for piece of mind with so much money at stake. I know very well there were and are cheaper chip tuning suppliers out there, but none of them have such an arrangement with main dealers to maintain the 3 year Seat warranty.
Bill
I think we need to open a "Bill's Fuming" Thread!
So - how does the warantee stand if you "leave it" - as I imagine SEAT UK won't touch you.
Oettinger aren't interested past the first year.
And would RSD if they gave you your money back for the remaining two?
TUV - hmmmmmm - but I see what you mean BenS1 regarding the approval. So as it's a 207bhp TUV approved conversion (and i bet you plenty that miltack aren't approved - why would they?) potentially dodgey ground methinks
M
If you just reject the upgrade, then go to jabbasport and get their £400 upgrade instead, then keep the £1400 saved in a high interest savings account just in case anything does go wrong, I cant imagine anything that could go wrong costing more than that?
ibizacupra
29-01-2002, 21:32
Originally posted by MarkP
I think we need to open a "Bill's Fuming" Thread!
So - how does the warantee stand if you "leave it" - as I imagine SEAT UK won't touch you.
Oettinger aren't interested past the first year.
And would RSD if they gave you your money back for the remaining two?
TUV - hmmmmmm - but I see what you mean BenS1 regarding the approval. So as it's a 207bhp TUV approved conversion (and i bet you plenty that miltack aren't approved - why would they?) potentially dodgey ground methinks
M
Time to stop this.
I have issues, and need resolution to them ASAP.
I don't like the customer support and attitude taken - Bottom line. The performance does not nor ever has been to the level it was sold as. TUV claimed, still no certificate or test results, weeks after being requested. Why?
I hear there have been complaints about the bashing they have been getting. This was totally avoidable if the customer service was up to spec, and their customer support went beyond one go at fixing/diagnosing a problem before resorting to take it or leave it. (I know I am not alone on this one)
If you do read this RSD, please take note of the comments regarding customer service, returning calls people make, making good on deliveries promised etc etc, and supporting the product sold beyond just one attempt at fixing. Do not wash your hands of it. If you are prepared to call, I am still (amazingly) prepared to talk to you to resolve this. One last chance.
Bill
So, did anyone see how tacky East Enders was last night. ;)
Missed tonights as I was out.
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
02-02-2002, 00:02
Originally posted by BenS1
So, did anyone see how tacky East Enders was last night. ;)
Missed tonights as I was out.
Cheers
Ben
Anyone know when the PVW mag will be out with the RR day in it?
Thanks
Ben
ibizacupra
02-02-2002, 19:08
Originally posted by BenS1
Anyone know when the PVW mag will be out with the RR day in it?
Thanks
Ben
I have emailed them to ask.
Will post their reply.
regards
Bill
coupe-sport
03-02-2002, 19:04
Just come back from another R/R day - this time specifically for TT's and at Interpro. What a contrast to PS. Cars strapped down properly, prepared properly and with good cooling.
With no heatsoak probs, all the cars ran very well, and i posted a 257 BHP / 295 lbft run.
Well recommended and a bargain at £15 quid a go too.
rgds
ibizacupra
03-02-2002, 19:21
Originally posted by coupe-sport
Just come back from another R/R day - this time specifically for TT's and at Interpro. What a contrast to PS. Cars strapped down properly, prepared properly and with good cooling.
With no heatsoak probs, all the cars ran very well, and i posted a 257 BHP / 295 lbft run.
Well recommended and a bargain at £15 quid a go too.
rgds
Excellent. Glad you got the dyno you were after eventually.
PS and their method of testing have a lot to be desired.
Major software limitations on the control of their dyno loads.
regards
Bill
Steve3961
03-02-2002, 20:21
Originally posted by ibizacupra
If you do read this RSD, please take note of the comments regarding customer service, returning calls people make, making good on deliveries promised etc etc, and supporting the product sold beyond just one attempt at fixing. Do not wash your hands of it. If you are prepared to call, I am still (amazingly) prepared to talk to you to resolve this. One last chance.
Bill
Im pretty sure they do read this Bill,
The other day i saw "DannyRSD" in the who's online section,
Could be a coincidence but i dont think so.
ibizacupra
04-02-2002, 15:47
Originally posted by BenS1
Anyone know when the PVW mag will be out with the RR day in it?
Thanks
Ben
the feature will run in the march issue out 14 feb
regards
Bill