View Full Version : E05 Cooling, help required
Would this be a suitable method of cooling my E05'd Ibiza 20vt???. Any of you tech minded people have any info you could throw my way?.
http://www.noswizard.com/water.php
A mate has a 300bhp supercharged VR6 that uses Aquamist water injection - I'm still waiting for some data logs so I can see how effective it is at controlling charge temps as it is introduced at the throttle body.
If it goes t*ts-up, as my mates did (pump failed) while he was doing a sustained 150mph, it might cost you an engine (his was £4K) unless you have some other method of controlling charge temps - probably limp mode in the case of 1.8T.
The water displaces some of the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber so if you can achieve your goal using an intercooler or chargecooler, that will be more efficient.
Cheers Glenn all info is a help.:cheers:
Aquamist do a range of systems, and the better ones include a flow rate sensor and alarm, so if the pump fails or if you get any kind of blockage then you will know immeadiately.
Aquamist themselves plus a lot of other companies (Including the link above) do cheap systems that use a simple pressure switch to activate the water spray. I've been advised to steer well clear of these systems as they do not increase the water flow rate as the boost/revs increase!
The best systems (Including some from Aquamist) are fully mappable, so you can map how much water flows at a given rpm/boost etc. These are the ones to get.
Jabbasport have used Aquamist on a couple of race project cars with good results. They too sa that the pressure switch variety are useless and only the fully mappable systems are worth doing.
Also, water injection is far far better as preventing detonation than a typical intercooler upgrade.
Read the Aquamist website as I seem to remmeber that it has quite a lot of useful info on there.
Cheers
Ben
i know someone who runs one of these more 'simple' aqua mist kits on a highly tuned polo G40 and he said results are amazing!!
Mark
Originally posted by mk4polo
i know someone who runs one of these more 'simple' aqua mist kits on a highly tuned polo G40 and he said results are amazing!!
Mark
Yes they will work, but just not as well. Think about it... you use a pressure switch to trigger the water injection and the water injection is at a constant flow rate. At low rpm the water flow rate is likely to be too high, and as the revs climb the water flow rate is likely to be too low. Theres not a single flow rate that will work across the whole rev range so you have to compromise.
You could select a flow rate that is right for low rpm but then when you floor it you will find that you still get detonation. If you set the flow rate to be correct for high rpm then the excess water injected at low rpm may make the car jumpy and spluttery. Set it for the mid rpm and you'll still get a bit of detonation at the top end and a bit rough at the bottom end.
The fully mapable systems are great, but I think theres a very simple gap in the market. The simple systems are too simple, and the mappable systems are a bit overkill... what we need is a system that just uses the injector duty cycle to control the rate of water injection. All you'd need to do is set an activation threshold (eg. 60%) and a max flow rate and max duty cycle threshold... then all it does is linearly ramp up the flow rate between the min and max duty cycles and once beyond the max duty cycle it could keep it at a contant max flow rate.
Anyway, AFAIK such a system doesn't exist and so you have to achieve the same results with a mre expensive mappable system.
Cheers
Ben
To be honest i will be either selling the Ibiza and spending the money on modifying a vx220 turbo, or possibly getting an Evo or lightweight high powered import scoob to play with. The E05 has shown it is not capable of making good enough power. My car 233bhp 250lbs ft 4th gear power run at jabba, i have now added a Milltek sports cat and dp. Custardcupra's car made 236bhp and 260lbs ft (at Jabba also) with milltek sportscat and dp and milltek cat back and 4 core Pace CC 5th gear power run. We dont know what power his car would have made in a 4th gear run, anyone have any idea.:cheers:
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 08:12
Originally posted by Madmile
To be honest i will be either selling the Ibiza and spending the money on modifying a vx220 turbo, or possibly getting an Evo or lightweight high powered import scoob to play with. The E05 has shown it is not capable of making good enough power. My car 233bhp 250lbs ft 4th gear power run at jabba, i have now added a Milltek sports cat and dp. Custardcupra's car made 236bhp and 260lbs ft (at Jabba also) with milltek sportscat and dp and milltek cat back and 4 core Pace CC 5th gear power run. We dont know what power his car would have made in a 4th gear run, anyone have any idea.:cheers:
y 5th gear???
was he running uprated injectors and fpr??
We are both using 4 bar fpr's and stock injectors. I think Mike told Custardcupra he would exspect a k03s to make even less power than e05.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 15:01
Originally posted by Madmile
We are both using 4 bar fpr's and stock injectors. I think Mike told Custardcupra he would exspect a k03s to make even less power than e05.
That aint what he told me!!!!
He said he had minimum's of 225bhp with stock IC/Cat/DP & K03s, and highs of 250bhp with fmic's etc etc. I got 224bhp with Revo and stock fmic and standard turbo.
Since uprated to big bore intake, K03 sport turbo and 2.5" single pass FMIC, so it shouldnt be a problem to see an extra 6bhp??
What i dont understand is that the Golf E05 had 265bhp without specific mapping!!!??? :confused: Granted it had injectors uprated etc but still.............
I know its wrong to say and probably is a completly wrong statement but i have thought it so gonna say it: "Maybe Jabba dont want any competition for the IHI?"
Let the Flaming Comence......................... Just doesnt add up
I dont know Mike, your results from your K03s will prove it one way or another. E05 should not make less than K03s so i cant see you making anymore than our figures. Theres one way of proving it, i could go to Revo get there map and then dyno it on Jabbas rollers and see if they make more bhp than Jabba's map.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 15:16
Originally posted by Madmile
I dont know Mike, your results from your K03s will prove it one way or another. E05 should not make less than K03s so i cant see you making anymore than our figures. Theres one way of proving it, i could go to Revo get there map and then dyno it on Jabbas rollers and see if they make more bhp than Jabba's map.
Swap your ECU for a Revo one (from a mate with revo) and then get it RR'd, then you could swap it back. With Vag com it takes 2mins to do. also get it done @ stealth or something so its unbiased and have the Jabba/Revo ECU's RR'd back to back.
Time will tell with mine, At jabba on 27th. Will be seriously gutted if i dont get any more than i had @ stealth with Revo as an additional £1.5k has been spent since.
To me it just doesnt add up, especially the golf is also only small port head like the ibiza. Something is very wrong , especially with custard cupra's only getting a couple bhp more than you and he had cat and cooling
edit: Y 5th gear always seen 4th gear run even in bills!
My corrected bhp figure is 241.5bhp before Milltek sports cat and downpipe, chargecooler only allowed consecutive power runs quicker and more frequently. So a one off power run from my car should be the same as a one off power run from a cc car its the consecutive runs which would show my car loosing power and a cc car maintaining its power. The cc car is running more or less the same boost as my car, my map on the cc car made 234bhp straight away. Jabba tried to increase power but this is the most that could be run safely (236bhp). I have no doubt at all Jabba have done a good Job and extracted the most bhp/torque that was possible SAFELY.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 16:55
Originally posted by Madmile
My corrected bhp figure is 241.5bhp before Milltek sports cat and downpipe, chargecooler only allowed consecutive power runs quicker and more frequently. So a one off power run from my car should be the same as a one off power run from a cc car its the consecutive runs which would show my car loosing power and a cc car maintaining its power. The cc car is running more or less the same boost as my car, my map on the cc car made 234bhp straight away. Jabba tried to increase power but this is the most that could be run safely (236bhp). I have no doubt at all Jabba have done a good Job and extracted the most bhp/torque that was possible SAFELY.
ok, I would of thought the DP/Cat would of made more than a couple of bhp plus the CC would allow for higher boost?
Also, did custard ask y the power run was done in 5th? cause from what i understand you get a higher more accurate power reading from 4th?
Still the E05 will hold boost alot longer than a k03 which is the main thing for driveability, thats partly the reason what im hoping from with the k03s as it will hold boost longer than k03
I was told sports cat and dp would make 8-10bhp, and that the diff between a 4th gear run and a 5th gear run would be approx 5bhp, if this is true then the sports cat and dp made 8bhp. Regardless of cooling the turbo was physically incapable of running any more boost/power.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 17:24
Originally posted by Madmile
I was told sports cat and dp would make 8-10bhp, and that the diff between a 4th gear run and a 5th gear run would be approx 5bhp, if this is true then the sports cat and dp made 8bhp. Regardless of cooling the turbo was physically incapable of running any more boost/power.
what i dont understand is that i have seen a few K03s equipped cars (golf and octavia RS) both getting 250bhp, the E05 is an extension of this (The golf now running the E05 @ 265bhp) So there is the capability for the E05........ same turbo essentially same engine
I guess it may depend on the map you wamt, and how close to the knock u want to go, and if you want to depend on the knock holding it back if required.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 17:40
Originally posted by Madmile
I guess it may depend on the map you wamt, and how close to the knock u want to go, and if you want to depend on the knock holding it back if required.
but there is close to the knock and there is safe, but at the costs of 20-30bhp???
Guys, I've just run those numbers through the formulas and if both cars are making ~11psi at the max power point then 235bhp is pretty much bang on.
Other points to bear in mind are:
That the inlet charge cooling (be it water or air) will not be operating at full efficiency as the cooling fans can only simulate a 20mph wind tops?
The Milltek DP & cat has a 2" bottleneck in it as Dormouse found so it's not as effective as it could/should be.
The Golf has a big FMIC which even at lower efficiency is better than the Ibizas.
Knock sensors are the last resort and should not be used to compensate for a bad map. For the knock sensors to work, knock has to first occur, they don't pre-empt it. Knock makes the situation worse unless corrected so it's better to have no knock at all than rely on the sensors to catch it. Jabba have to write the map with a view to it working in the ~30'C summer as well as -10'C winter. Let me just illustrate : with a 0' C ambient at 11psi (72% C.E.), the air coming out of the turbo compressor will be ~65'C, at 25'C ambient it'll be ~95'C.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 18:32
Originally posted by Madmile
Who knows!!!!
not me! Ima go Boost mad @ Jabba, I want to see 20+psi :D Suppose it would be a cool comparison, So if ya sell ya car you wanna swap turbos?? ;)
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 18:38
Originally posted by Glenn
~65'C, at 25'C ambient it'll be ~95'C.
ouch thats hot,
all this stuff is pretty complicated.
Glenn so how does the Golf E05 produce much higher BHP when its esentially the same engine then and isnt even maped correctly??
Since fitting the sports cat i now see 20psi spike used to be 18psi. And 13psi at the redline when it used to be 11psi if that helps work any more figures out.
Originally posted by Shock_Xe
ouch thats hot,
all this stuff is pretty complicated.
Glenn so how does the Golf E05 produce much higher BHP when its esentially the same engine then and isnt even maped correctly??
I can only speculate as I don't know the exact spec of his car but
1. Different RR, different day. The first results I saw were from AmD with 240bhp/280lbft. The 265bhp run at Stealth was on a really cold day wasn't it? As you saw above, the ambient can make a hell of a difference, particularly on RRs where the IC/CC aren't working to full potential anyway. As max_torque said, RR's can be +/- 10% so you can't take them as set in stone.
2. With the Golf FMIC, a higher ambient will have less of a negative effect on performance than it will on the Ibiza. The Pace CC pre-rad is thought to be too small - again, the higher the boost and the less air moving through that rad, the higher the post-CC temps = less dense air. There's also the issue of the pressure drop across the Ibiza IC/CC - it may be higher than on the Golf which means to get 11psi at the manifold, you might need to get 14psi = 105'C out of the compressor, compounded by the cooling issues above.
3. Looking at those Stealth plots that m0rk posted, it appears that the Golf is running ~25psi peak tailing off to ~13psi at peak bhp. If you look at the torque trace, that's exactly what the boost is doing. My guess is that the DP on the Golf is better flowing than the Ibiza - maybe it doesn't have the 2" bottleneck - so he can get and hold slightly higher boost than the Ibiza but with much less waste heat so his overall inlet charge temp is lower.
Again to illustrate using the 11psi example, the difference between having a 70% efficient I/C and no I/C at all is the difference between 230bhp and 199bhp = 31bhp. Inlet temp without I/C = ~65'C, with I/C = ~19'C. That's assuming no p-drop across the I/C nad 0'C ambient.
Shock_Xe
13-02-2004, 21:25
Originally posted by Glenn
I can only speculate as I don't know the exact spec of his car but
1. Different RR, different day. The first results I saw were from AmD with 240bhp/280lbft. The 265bhp run at Stealth was on a really cold day wasn't it? As you saw above, the ambient can make a hell of a difference, particularly on RRs where the IC/CC aren't working to full potential anyway. As max_torque said, RR's can be +/- 10% so you can't take them as set in stone.
2. With the Golf FMIC, a higher ambient will have less of a negative effect on performance than it will on the Ibiza. The Pace CC pre-rad is thought to be too small - again, the higher the boost and the less air moving through that rad, the higher the post-CC temps = less dense air. There's also the issue of the pressure drop across the Ibiza IC/CC - it may be higher than on the Golf which means to get 11psi at the manifold, you might need to get 14psi = 105'C out of the compressor, compounded by the cooling issues above.
3. Looking at those Stealth plots that m0rk posted, it appears that the Golf is running ~25psi peak tailing off to ~13psi at peak bhp. If you look at the torque trace, that's exactly what the boost is doing. My guess is that the DP on the Golf is better flowing than the Ibiza - maybe it doesn't have the 2" bottleneck - so he can get and hold slightly higher boost than the Ibiza but with much less waste heat so his overall inlet charge temp is lower.
Again to illustrate using the 11psi example, the difference between having a 70% efficient I/C and no I/C at all is the difference between 230bhp and 199bhp = 31bhp. Inlet temp without I/C = ~65'C, with I/C = ~19'C. That's assuming no p-drop across the I/C nad 0'C ambient.
its not straight forward at all! :( Suppose we will see what i get at the RR especially with new fmic. Should be interesting and hopefully imformative.
Glen
The original 240hp run at AMD was a power figure taken on the forth consecutive run plus a couple of incomplete ones. They also ran it at high revs in third for about a minute (to warm it up?) before the first run. There were no temperature corections made for inlet temps, so these were actual uncorrected figures. The third run made 247hp with wheelspin. I found it strange that they managed to get a power figure on one of their own K04/023 cars on its first run, when it peoduced similar torque to mine?
The car runs >14psi at peak power, and holds 12-13psi at the rev limiter (7K)
The miltek downpipe on the golf is 2 1/2 inches with no restrictions or dodgy bends. More room than the beeza I guess. The volume of my front mount is only about 30% up on the standard golf side mount, but it has much larger frontal area, and intake temps are down from 60-70C to 40-50C at the end of an RR run. It runs 10C over ambient on the road, with peaks of 30C over ambient if I do a 0-120 run, so 20 secs of full boost. It recovers to 10C over ambient very quickly.
Once the cars mapped I intend to take it to a couple of other RR's (probably jabba and Gforce) to get comparative figs to stealth. I don't think any one of them is necessarily right, just that the comparison would be usefull.
With the same map the k03s made about 15-20hp less than the e05, and the wastegate was shut. The e05 wastegate runs 80-85% shut at peak torque, and is only 75-80% shut above 5krpm, so there's more in this baby yet. The k03 peaked at 175g/s at the maf, the eo5 on the same map peaks at 190g/s
The thing i like about the Revo map is that if you have vag com, you can tickle the knock sensors, and when temps go up or down, play with the timing to get the most out of the car under any conditions.
On the hottest days last summer though I was only having to back the timing off from 7 to 6. 7 is the most I can run at 10C with 98ron fuel. Optimax and ultimate give exactly the same knock readings on my car but ultimate gives measurably improved economy, though not enough to be worth the 4p premium over optimax (around here). Don't know if thats helped the optimax/ultimate debate.
Sorry I'm rambling now.
Custardcupra's car spikes at 22psi and holds 13psi @the redline, his peak power using a 5th gear power run saw 236bhp and 258lbs ft. I have been told a 4th gear run would result in a approx 240bhp and 265lbs ft, I have also been told the Rule Power is the figure which represent road power most correctly, before Milltek sports cat and downpipe my 4th Gear rule power was 241.4bhp. The Rule power takes into account atmospheric pressure and ambient temp. I dont know much, but it seems a fair bit quicker than just chipped.