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Hi
I have a 250hp normally aspirated ibiza hillclimb car that i have been running on VAG Synta Gold fully synthetic oil. I used to buy this from the VW dealer in 50L drums but they have stopped selling it. Thus, I am looking for a high quality, but cost effective, race oil 10/50 or 10/60. The oil gets changed regularly, and being a dry sump engine takes 7-8L per change. I was thinking Motul or Shell Racing, but are open to suggestions.
What would you have or suggest?
Thanks
Rob
Hi Rob
There is an offer starting this weekend where the Gulf Competition is going to be on offer at £30 for 5L. That is a top end oil, but the supplier does us a good deal. Their 10w-50, 15w-50 or 10w-60 would be suitable. Unless the oil temps are getting over 130C, I'd use the 10w-40.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-971-gulf-competition.aspx
Cheers
Tim
Thanks for reply - thats not a bad price - I checked last night and the last time I bought the VAG fully synthetic oil was £86 for 25L - any further discount for say 25L? (pm me if you would prefer)
that was 5W/40 and has been ok - so 10/40 or 10/50 will probably do the job
I am leaning towards 10/50 as the temps do to between 120 and 130 on occasion (I dont run an oil cooler but rely on the large vol of oil in the tank to keep the engine sufficiently cool)
The Synta Gold may have been £86 for 25L, but it's nothing like the same quality as the Gulf. £30 for 5L is the best I can do. Own brand oils like the Synta are basic oils made as cheaply as possible. Top end oils are made to do the job, then afterwards they look at the price. I don't know how often you changed the Synta, but the Gulf will be good for at least 10 hours of track use (we've had sponsored cars in 24hr races using it).
With 120-130C, I'd stick with the 10w-40. Top end ones are fine at 130C and can deal with higher peaks.
Cheers
Tim
What do you mean by 'nothing like the same quality'?
Synta gold was recomended by one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world for their performance engines - it must be fairly good surely? And I have used it for 5 years or more with no issues. The good price means it could be changed quite regularly which was also a bonus.
I'm afraid I have a dilemma. Synta Gold has been replaced with the 5W/40 fully synthetic Synta Platinum which is available in 20L drums at a very good price. I could change this twice for the price of the Gulf......
Hmm, decisions decisions.
Is the Gulf £30/5L delivered?
Just because a large car manufacturer recommends an oil, it doesn't mean it's any good. Why would they want to recommend an oil that protects the car as well as possible? They want cars to last a certain amount of time so people come back and buy new ones. Certain manufacturer spec oils, like Ford, are very basic. All the manufacturer recommended oils are done so due to money. Castrol, Mobil, Agip, Shell etc all pay the car makers to recommend the oils. Others like the Synta are produced in conjunction with the car makers, meeting, but not exceeding the basic requirements as cheaply as possible.
Another thing is that just because an oil says it's a 5w-40 synthetic, it doesn't mean it's the same as the next 5w-40 synthetic. Synta oils are actually refined and modified mineral oils, rather than genuine synthetics. All cheaper 'synthetic' oils are made from mineral oils. The next step up from those is a PAO synthetic, which is a proper, purpose made synthetic. Above those are the ester based oils. They are the top level of oil. The ester oils have three main benefits - they stick to the inside of the engine (like in the magnatec adverts, but much better than that) so the engine has much better cold start protection, they are more stable at high temps and they are generally better lubricants. Ester oils are so good that you can change another oil daily and the ester oil is still giving better protection, even when it should be changed.
It's £30 plus delivery for the Gulf.
Cheers
Tim
Why would vw recommend an oil which might cause their engines to fail? Makes no sense to me. Vw engines are known for their reliability and some of this must be down to recommended lubricants.
As a racer, i am always on the look out for the best bang for my buck so to speak. Racing is expensive, so i try to save wherever possible, so that gives me the cash to spend on things that are expensive and are absolutely essential. It feels to me like all these oils that we are discussing are 'good'. Question is, when is a product good enough?
I used to do quite a lot with MGBs, very old fashioned design but tuned to the sky. Used to run it on straight 30w, changed regularly, as we had a massive drum of it. Think it was shell. Never had a single issue, and zero bearing wear (i know this as we used to do wear metal analysis on the oil).
If i was running a motorbike engined racer, that regularly saw 10k+ rpm, i'd agree with you. But even though my engine is pretty fruity, its still a 30 yr old design that sees only 8.5K, and i know doesnt show any signs of wear (via oil analysis) using lubricants that you describe as cheap.
Synta platinum is about £3/liter. Gulf competition, when its on offer, is £6/liter + postage. The shell longlife oil that Audi used to recommend was a quite frankly rediculous £14/liter. What oil would you recommend that is more comparable in price and performance to the Synta?
Sorry,forgot to ask, what is the postage cost per 5l container, and what would it be for say 20 liters?
Thanks
I didn't say the oil will make the engine fail, it just won't protect as well as the best oils.
How often (miles/hours) do you change the oil?
The postage is £4.99 for 5L for the standard shipping.
Cheers
Tim
ibizacupra
09-05-2011, 10:54
sorry to butt in.. but this has got me asking a question.
I run ester based oil in my own racecar, and have done since 2005. Motuls 300v
What other ester based oils are "top" quality and what are the determinators on which grade oil to use? I have used 15w50 300v up to now. Got a new engine to install, and once its run in, it will go onto an ester oil.. Motuls brochure which said things like 100% shear stable is what drew me to it..
thanks
(soz for butting in rob)
Hi
The race quality ester oils we have are the Motul 300v, Redline, Millers CFS, Fuchs Pro S and Gulf Competition.
Take the claims on the cans with a pinch of salt, they all say they are the best for all kinds of reasons, but from experience with customers and sponsored drivers, we've found they are all pretty much as good as each other, which often makes it hard to recommend the Motul as you can get 15L of the Gulf for the same as 6L of the 300V.
Cheers
Tim
I didn't say the oil will make the engine fail, it just won't protect as well as the best oils.
How often (miles/hours) do you change the oil?
The postage is £4.99 for 5L for the standard shipping.
Cheers
Tim
But given that well maintained VW engines easily crack 100K miles with very little wear, the recommended oils must be pretty good wouldn't you say?
I would typically change the oil after a trackday, which might see 1.5-2hrs of tracktime throughout the day, and a max temp of 120-130C (I dont let it go over 130C). For competition, I might do 8-10 hillclimbs a year, each event being on average 6 runs of 60 seconds apiece. Temps dont go over 110C. So in 1 year maybe 1hr of competition runtime, and then a few trackdays. 7-8L oil change volume.
Does the postage scale with amount - so £20 for 20L?
ibizacupra
09-05-2011, 14:11
and the second part of my question?
what are the determinators on which grade oil to use?
More spec of the Engine: 1900cc 1.8t , GT35hybrid turbo, runs up to 9000rpm, 35psi boost on max. Pump fuel VPower. Power the wrong side of 600bhp
1.8t engine.. oil temps when racing logged at 108'c-115'c (its a saloon race car @ castle combe)
it has run 300v motul 15w50 thus far (I am trade btw and bought it in packs of 2ltr tins)
What grade of oil would you advise?
sorry to butt in.. but this has got me asking a question.
I run ester based oil in my own racecar, and have done since 2005. Motuls 300v
What other ester based oils are "top" quality and what are the determinators on which grade oil to use? I have used 15w50 300v up to now. Got a new engine to install, and once its run in, it will go onto an ester oil.. Motuls brochure which said things like 100% shear stable is what drew me to it..
thanks
(soz for butting in rob)
No probs B.
Your engine is an example of where a pukka top end oil might be of benefit - 500hp turbo engine - any survival advantage would probably be prudent :D. My dilemma is that I'm not convinced that lesser engines, that dont do 15K miles between changes, necessarily need £10+/L oils......
But given that well maintained VW engines easily crack 100K miles with very little wear, the recommended oils must be pretty good wouldn't you say?
I would typically change the oil after a trackday, which might see 1.5-2hrs of tracktime throughout the day, and a max temp of 120-130C (I dont let it go over 130C). For competition, I might do 8-10 hillclimbs a year, each event being on average 6 runs of 60 seconds apiece. Temps dont go over 110C. So in 1 year maybe 1hr of competition runtime, and then a few trackdays. 7-8L oil change volume.
Does the postage scale with amount - so £20 for 20L?
I'd say that you would probably be fine using one 5L container of the Gulf each year. The ester based oils are all good for 10 solid hours or more of track use (we supplied Gulf and Fuchs Pro S to two cars in the Britcar 24hr last year and they were fine). So rather than 5 or so changes, just one. Starts working out as better when change intervals are considered.
Here's the link to our postage charges.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-carriage.aspx
Cheers
Tim
and the second part of my question?
More spec of the Engine: 1900cc 1.8t , GT35hybrid turbo, runs up to 9000rpm, 35psi boost on max. Pump fuel VPower. Power the wrong side of 600bhp
1.8t engine.. oil temps when racing logged at 108'c-115'c (its a saloon race car @ castle combe)
it has run 300v motul 15w50 thus far (I am trade btw and bought it in packs of 2ltr tins)
What grade of oil would you advise?
We look at the standard spec of the engine, the modifications done and the oil temps. With yours, I'd go with a 5w-40 or 10w-40. Ester based 5w-40s and 10w-40s are fine up to an average of 130C with higher peaks. As your car is well short of 130C, the 5w or 10w-40 will be fine. It may also help to reduce the engine temp as the oil will flow quicker and transmit heat away from the engine faster. You may also gain a few BHP, but not a huge amount.
Cheers
Tim
I'd say that you would probably be fine using one 5L container of the Gulf each year. The ester based oils are all good for 10 solid hours or more of track use (we supplied Gulf and Fuchs Pro S to two cars in the Britcar 24hr last year and they were fine). So rather than 5 or so changes, just one. Starts working out as better when change intervals are considered.
Here's the link to our postage charges.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-carriage.aspx
Cheers
Tim
Oil change volume=7-8L. So I would need two 5L containers/yr. £60+£8.29 shipping=£68.29 or £6.80/L.
The Fuchs Pro S would be £102+£8.29 shipping=£110.29 or £11.02/L.
Or Redline £135.13 or £13.51/L
Synta Platinum equivalent, £30, no shipping as available locally, £3/L.
So question is......is it worth it to me to save £38-105/yr for oil, over an above the manufacturer-recommended synthetic oil.......:think:
I must say I do rate the Redline gear oils - I use Lightweight Shockproof Gear Oil for my dogbox.
How do the Gulf / Fuchs and Redline compare?
ibizacupra
10-05-2011, 09:17
We look at the standard spec of the engine, the modifications done and the oil temps. With yours, I'd go with a 5w-40 or 10w-40. Ester based 5w-40s and 10w-40s are fine up to an average of 130C with higher peaks. As your car is well short of 130C, the 5w or 10w-40 will be fine. It may also help to reduce the engine temp as the oil will flow quicker and transmit heat away from the engine faster. You may also gain a few BHP, but not a huge amount.
Cheers
Tim
ok thanks
Oil change volume=7-8L. So I would need two 5L containers/yr. £60+£8.29 shipping=£68.29 or £6.80/L.
The Fuchs Pro S would be £102+£8.29 shipping=£110.29 or £11.02/L.
Or Redline £135.13 or £13.51/L
Synta Platinum equivalent, £30, no shipping as available locally, £3/L.
So question is......is it worth it to me to save £38-105/yr for oil, over an above the manufacturer-recommended synthetic oil.......:think:
I must say I do rate the Redline gear oils - I use Lightweight Shockproof Gear Oil for my dogbox.
How do the Gulf / Fuchs and Redline compare?
I'm a big fan of the Redline gear oils, they are a good choice in pretty much everything. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for. Their engine oils are great too, but too expensive as they only come in US gallon containers. Fuchs gear oils can be as good as the Redline ones, but they are a bit fussier and some cars don't get on with the Syn 5 (their top one).
Cheers
Tim
Rob, my mind is going the same way as yours!
At the moment I am using Gulf Competion 10W-40 oil from Opie Oils, bought 20L a while ago but I remember Saxon Motorsport commenting on how "clean" the engine looked when he had it all stripped down and I think this is because I was using Synta oil and changing it after every track day... and to be honest I preferred doing this, like the idea of new oil in the engine as often as possible!
Now I'm using the Gulf oil I had it first put in when I had the bodies done (01/2010) and then replaced it just before Performance Car Action Day @ Combe as the oil was in the engine for about 8 months with hardly any mileage & 8x track sessions at Combe & Rockingham (2.5 hours of track time in total)
I currently have 10L left of the Gulf and have been thinking about going back to the Synta (£15 for 5L) and changing the oil after every track day like yourself and what I use to do!
Reading through this thread and I'm asking myself the same questions as Rob, Tim are they any facts about the difference of the "quality" of oil between the Synta & Gulf/Ester oil? You know what you are talking about, I won't question that... you got this information from somewhere.... where was that from?
Thanks
There are various oil tests around the internet, but many of them are ruined by the oil that sponsored the test getting the best results. If you ignore the top oil in those tests and have a look at the others, you see that the ester based ones are always in the top few, Redline is often second to the sponsors oil.
Another thing we look at are the results from sponsored drivers. One guy was using Mobil 1 15w-50, a good oil, before he came to us and was having the engine rebuilt at the end of each season, if not before. He started using the Fuchs Pro R or Motul 300V, I can't remember which, but after the first season the engine builder thought he'd only done 3 races rather than a whole season. Another guy had a dry sump system, the oil tank came off at the start of the race, but he still completed the race (okay, it was only short) and the engine didn't need any serious work.
We have most of the oils lab tested when we get them and the Gulf gets some very good results, it's definately a top end oil.
Cheers
Tim
What do you mean by good resilts?
What is tested?
Any links to one of these tests?
Good results are things like looking at the HTHS numbers and the NOAK numbers and various other things you can get a good picture of what kind of quality the oil is.
No links to test results on the Gulf, it is something we had done and when it went thorugh the correlation machine it came out very similar to the Millers CFS, another well proven oil.
Cheers
Guy.