View Full Version : Black Box To Beat Tuners
boulevard
15-03-2004, 12:40
Taken from AutoExpress website
The fight to beat unscrupulous tuners is being stepped up at Subaru. Plans are underway to fit its cars with 'black boxes' to record engine and ignition data to better protect its customers.
The systems will be specifically developed to spy on drivers who fit so-called 'invisible' tuning parts, including removable engine ECU chips and easy-to-change performance components such as exhausts. Usually, fitting non-standard parts like these will immediately invalidate an engine's warranty protection, and reduce a car's resale value.
Drivers fit them to improve performance, but remove them when making fraudulent warranty claims or before selling the car. "Black boxes are inevitable," said a Subaru UK spokesperson. "We'll have them fitted to all cars in the next two years."
so tuners will now be developing a black box jammer,to fool the black box.subaru then make a black box jammer ,jammer.visious circle
LEO LION R
15-03-2004, 12:47
I take it then that a lot of other manufacturers will be adopting this policy then ?
What about the problem of defining which part it is that causes some thing to fail, ie. if i fit a sports exhaust to the car and the MAF fails, does that mean the warranty is void ?
It just seems like another thing to work in favour of manufacturers and not the owners, and surely one thing that makes the likes of Imprezas so popular is that they are so tunable, so this may backfire on their new car sales ?
Also surely it cant be that many car sthat are modded enough to cause a major component to fail, so is it financially viable for the manufacturers to do this ?
:cheers:
or just improve PPP sales.....
Might violate some privacy laws or ECHR if not done right. Once you've paid for it, you can do what the f*ck you like with it unless there's a law prohibiting its use!
ibizacupra
15-03-2004, 16:46
Like VAG's "ENGINE RPM EXCEEDED, WARRANTY VOID" which already exists in ecu...
Like VAG's "ENGINE RPM EXCEEDED, WARRANTY VOID" which already exists in ecu...
So why do they bother with rev limiters?
CupraR-Rog
15-03-2004, 19:52
Like VAG's "ENGINE RPM EXCEEDED, WARRANTY VOID" which already exists in ecu...
Huh??
And that comes in WHEN??
I have to say that I find the idea of people wanting to tune the f&*k out of their cars but still expecting the manufacturer to stump up for warranty in the case of directly-related failures rather absurd.
"If Sir is that concerned about keeping his warranty or paying out for a new engine, perhaps Sir should consider whether he should be f*&king around with his ECU in the first place?"
It's why I find the 'Stealth Aspect' of REVO with regard to dealers/insurance a strange selling point - if you're not prepared to shoulder any possible consequences, then don't take the risk?
Of course, dealers should not be allowed to claim that an aftermarket exhaust renders the warranty on coilpacks void.
Of course, dealers should not be allowed to claim that an aftermarket exhaust renders the warranty on coilpacks void.
This is the whole point Glenn.
I have Revo and bought it on the grounds that it was switcahble, for the warranty! BUT, the reason I did it, is not so I can make a fraudulent claim, but because my dealer told me if I do ANYTHING, including swapping the dv, then my ENTIRE warranty is null and void!
If they had said, if I chip the car, then only affected items are removed from warranty, then I may have gone to Jabba etc.
Garth that is because dealers are generally bunch of ******s who don't know what they are talking about - legally they could not void your whole warranty. "I'm sorry sir we can't fix your rust problem because you chipped your ECU".
This is the whole point Glenn.
I have Revo and bought it on the grounds that it was switchable, for the warranty! BUT, the reason I did it, is not so I can make a fraudulent claim, but because my dealer told me if I do ANYTHING, including swapping the dv, then my ENTIRE warranty is null and void!
If they had said, if I chip the car, then only affected items are removed from warranty, then I may have gone to Jabba etc.
If what your dealer told you was true, then any post-REVO warranty claim that you make would automatically be fraudulent as you have made and attempted to conceal, changes to the vehicles specification.
Page 7 of SEAT Customer Care 4th edition (valid from 01/07/2000) states :
SEAT Dealer Warranty 2nd & 3rd years/60K mile limitation(continued)
General Exclusions
The programme does not cover:
"Any vehicle modified or fitted with any experimental or other equipment not approved by SEAT."
Huh??
And that comes in WHEN??
when some tuners raise the rev limit.
personally have heard of it on 2 jabba'd ibizas & one upsoluted ibiza.
when some tuners raise the rev limit.
personally have heard of it on 2 jabba'd ibizas & one upsoluted ibiza.
Also if you drop down into 1st instead of 3rd while doing motorway speeds in 5th - a rev limiter won't help there.
ibizacupra
15-03-2004, 22:25
If what your dealer told you was true, then any post-REVO warranty claim that you make would automatically be fraudulent as you have made and attempted to conceal, changes to the vehicles specification.
Page 7 of SEAT Customer Care 4th edition (valid from 01/07/2000) states :
SEAT Dealer Warranty 2nd & 3rd years/60K mile limitation(continued)
General Exclusions
The programme does not cover:
"Any vehicle modified or fitted with any experimental or other equipment not approved by SEAT."
The warranty should remain intact on all non affected parts unless it can be proven those parts directly or indirectly caused the problem..
This is as trained by VAG on their recent Warranty course..
We all know however... some dealers make things up as it suits them tho..
Indeed they do.
I can speak from personal experiance I have changed a turbo on a remapped car whislt at a dealer because we were a bit short of work and needed something to do.
If we dont tell them they dont know sort of thing.
max_torque
16-03-2004, 07:49
Of course, dealers should not be allowed to claim that an aftermarket exhaust renders the warranty on coilpacks void.
Why not?
because it IS possible for a change of exhaust to influence the performance of the coil packs, either through engine bay heat rejection, or by increased in-cylinder exhaust gas residuals requiring a boost to the ignition energy and overheating the coil packs beyond there design limits.
The point is that your warranty is set on a vehicle that entirely is as tested to the manufacturer to it's durability signoff criteria, changing ANY part means the car is not to OEM spec, and hence the manufacturer will not accept responsibility for that change.
All cars already log engine data, it's called OBDII and EOBD!, but there will be an even stricter addition in for 05MY cars with "life cycle" data logging to aid manufacturers to see exactly what their cars are doing. It's a particular problem for OEM's like subaru, as a high proportion of their sales are likely to be tuned, as they have "car enthusiast" owners, compared say to FORD, who sell millions of cars, of which only a few 10ths of a percent are modified.
True, but then when Subaru UK turn around and void warranty's when you take your car on a track day (which has been known, allegedly Subaru employees masked themselves as punters) is this right?
I used to work in a bike shop, we sold serious ATB's, although every warranty was void should your bike ever be taken off road (this was written in each warranty, although it never actually became an issue)
I think theres some scope for reasoning, the dealers attitude to carte blanche warranty exclusion is a bit of a cop out IMO
I say fair play to Subaru, I'm not saying anyone here has done it but must certainly be alot of people who use the switchability of stealth tunes like revo to cover up after the mod breaks something and then do a warranty claim. Which isn't really "on" is really. I do recall reading of one case in a car modifying magazine where some had turbo-charged their Yaris, blew up the gearbox and then just took the turbo off and made a successful warranty claim which just isn't on. We all know when modifying cars that we invalidate the warranty so its only fair for the OEMS to enforce their rules. If you don't like their warranty conditions then fair enough don't use it - go buy a 3rd party warranty or just don't claim.
Might violate some privacy laws or ECHR if not done right. Once you've paid for it, you can do what the f*ck you like with it unless there's a law prohibiting its use!
Of course you can do what you like to the car, this isn't as far as I can see intened to stop tuners - just to make sure that people dont tune and then warranty claim.
or just improve PPP sales.....
and why not? look at it from subaru's point of view they are offering a tuning option that does a fair job without voiding the warranty (which is more than SEAT UK do - only individual dealers offer chipping) and then they still have people tune the cars at third parties and come crying to subaru when something breaks. Its a simple stance I guess - if you want to tune the car and keep your warranty then fine come to us. If you want it cheaper/more powerful then what we offer fine but we won't warranty it.
Sounds reasonable to me...
The fact is, this is just a continuation of the game of cat and mouse we play with the dealers. We all know the risks of what we are doing (whether we accept them or not), and there will always be someway to make the risks more acceptable not matter how much the manufacturers try and raise them.
just improve PPP sales.....
says it all for me :thumbup:
mummy they are stealing my pocket money again :bleh:
also improve mitsubishi evo sales as well :p feck the stealers they have had it too good for too long now,first they cry over imports,then over tuning,they have robbed us in this country for long enough,if seat dont like it bring out an official tuning package ffs and do us all a favour,as techie righly pointed out that they only know if the dealer tells em,why should they are getting paid for the work,and dont cry foul to me,fraud in the end we pay anyway in higher vehicle costs what goes around comes around,like insurance thay all pi$$ in the same pot [B)]
Golf-GTI-MK1
16-03-2004, 20:58
also improve mitsubishi evo sales as well :p feck the stealers they have had it too good for too long now,first they cry over imports,then over tuning,they have robbed us in this country for long enough,if seat dont like it bring out an official tuning package ffs and do us all a favour,as techie righly pointed out that they only know if the dealer tells em,why should they are getting paid for the work,and dont cry foul to me,fraud in the end we pay anyway in higher vehicle costs what goes around comes around,like insurance thay all pi$$ in the same pot [B)]
Well said Vern :thumbup:
if seat dont like it bring out an official tuning package [B)]
errr they did last october :(
well SEAT Sport did to be exact - mainly in europe called "Adrenalina" line LOL
caters for diesels mainly looking at it
*edit*
Performance tables
Ibiza/Córdoba 100 hp 1.9 TDi
Output 100 to 125 hp
Torque 240 to 290 nm
León/Toledo 110 hp 1.9 TDi
Output 110 to 125 hp
Torque 235 to 280 nm
Alhambra 115 hp 1.9 TDi
Output 85 to103 hp
Torque 310 to 340 nm
and to stir up the pot a bit :p
Furthermore, since it is an original SEAT Sport accessory, its installation does not imply any modification to the vehicle's warranty, and this device has a two-year, unlimited mileage guarantee.
hehehe
Of course, this is all a bit of a mute point right now as only Subaru are planning to introduce this and nobody else has mentioned it.
Chances of it happening to anybody else are slim as Subaru are probably a victim of the Scoobs own success. i.e. loads of people have them so people mod and tune them to be different and cause fradulent warrantly claims as people reach for big numbers. I don't think anyother car has the same kind of situation. Except maybee the Saxos and Crosas but they are only for the spotty herbets whilst scoobs are for men! Grrr!
also improve mitsubishi evo sales as well :p feck the stealers they have had it too good for too long now,first they cry over imports,then over tuning,they have robbed us in this country for long enough,if seat dont like it bring out an official tuning package ffs and do us all a favour,as techie righly pointed out that they only know if the dealer tells em,why should they are getting paid for the work,and dont cry foul to me,fraud in the end we pay anyway in higher vehicle costs what goes around comes around,like insurance thay all pi$$ in the same pot [B)]
sorry man having trouble following this post...
first of all you start by talking about evo sales - then talk about SEAT bringing out an official tuning package as a way to combat this -> and this logic works how?
:blink:
Oh and yes an OEM is only going to know about this if a dealer tells them but wouldnt you have thought that if say Subaru implements this system that they arent going to ask for information from it before authorising a warranty claim on say a new engine? Would kind of make the system pointless if they didnt, right?
As long as OEMs play it straight with me I'm willing to do the same with them, so yes if I mod the engine then they have every right to deny a warranty claim on the engine unless I can PROVE that the mod had no effect whatsoever .. Yes I'd be chuffed to bits if they paid the claim but I wouldnt cry about it if they said no - fair cop really, you takes your chances.
If I mod the brakes and the engine blows up then they should damn well pay (which like Bill said is official VAG policy, I can't speak for any other OEMS).
In my book lying about a mod to get a claim through when you know the mod wasn't responisible and trying it on when you know the mod is what broke it are two different things - the first is a little white lie to avoid coming a cropper and the latter is just outright fraud.
called captive marketing plans
if no one else can do it because customers fear warranty issues
then dealers can cash in on the shortfall ;)
all clever stuff
Ruddmeister
17-03-2004, 07:11
The fact is, this is just a continuation of the game of cat and mouse we play with the dealers. We all know the risks of what we are doing (whether we accept them or not), and there will always be someway to make the risks more acceptable not matter how much the manufacturers try and raise them.
Absolutely spot on, we know the risks we are taking if we get away with a warranty claim then good for us, I won't lie to a dealer if they ask if it's modified, but i'm not going to walk into the dealer and say, '..it needs a 10,000 mile service and by the way it has Revo...'
I do know one person on here who has written to the dealer upfront and come clean and the dealer was very relaxed about it.........I suppose we will see how relaxd he is at the first major warranty claim, I suspect the lazy Seat dealer will take the work and get paid for it.
I doubt any of this will dent VAG's cashflow but I can see why Subaru are worried.
I won't lie to a dealer if they ask if it's modified
Senario...
You get your car Revo'ed. Car runs fine for a year or two.
Then bang! 6 months before your warrantee expires your engine blows up and is likely to cost £1000's to put it right.
You would go into your dealer and try to make a claim on warrantee.
They ask "Has it been modified in anyway?"
You say "Yes it has been Revo'ed" even though that is likely to void your warrantee????
Sorry mate, but i doubt it somehow.
The way I see it, if you want to modify your car, then you go for it. But dont take the piss by asking Seat to repair it under warrantee if it breaks! These sort of claims ar ethe reason behind ever increasing car prices. Seat cant just right costs off, so they will take any issue, no matter how small to void a warrantee.
If you play with fire - you get burnt!
well has anyones chipped leon engine gone bang?
i've not heard of any
Ruddmeister
19-03-2004, 07:45
The way I see it, if you want to modify your car, then you go for it. But dont take the piss by asking Seat to repair it under warrantee if it breaks! These sort of claims ar ethe reason behind ever increasing car prices. Seat cant just right costs off, so they will take any issue, no matter how small to void a warrantee.
If you play with fire - you get burnt!
Your absolutely right assuming that the dealer follows the book, however many of our lazy dealers would do the work when possible and get the cash from Seat irrespective of right or wrong. I'm sure you are right that fraudulent claims contribute to increasing car costs but some dealers play the system as indicated by Techie earlier in the thread. Some blame is at the dealers door too and we can't legislate for that.
Rob, what really annoys me is that Revo is covered under warranty in Greece, I understand this is becasue SeatGreece is privately owned, but becasue SeatUK is owned direct by VAG then Revo is excluded. We also have Uk dealers offering to fit Revo as an optional extra, this smacks of double standards. Surely it should be the same Europe wide?.
Just Subarus way to try cover their un-explained engine failures of big ends! Blaming the tuners when it seems fairly clear that guys buy a brand new subaru not even a few thousand miles on the clock and they get a big end failure, some with 100K fail, some with 400HP dont... design fault on the flat 4's.
Just Subarus way to try cover their un-explained engine failures of big ends! Blaming the tuners when it seems fairly clear that guys buy a brand new subaru not even a few thousand miles on the clock and they get a big end failure, some with 100K fail, some with 400HP dont... design fault on the flat 4's.
This is where things get complicated. A manufacturer should never try and fob of a warranty claim for a known defect in the engine simply because it was modified. However they could claim that the defect only became apparant or was exasparated by the modification.
For instance with the 1.8 20VT, we know that the MAF and DV can fail especially on tuned cars. However they can also fail on non tuned cars. How can you say that it wouldn't have failed if you hadn't tuned it, how can any body prove that an event might have happend no matter what you did.
For instance with the 1.8 20VT, we know that the MAF and DV can fail especially on tuned cars. However they can also fail on non tuned cars. How can you say that it wouldn't have failed if you hadn't tuned it, how can any body prove that an event might have happend no matter what you did.
No one can prove anything, and as it stands the chances of any VAG engine going bang after a re-chip are pretty slim. BUT, if it does and you have had the car chipped - can you honestly say it wasnt the tuning at fault and the engine would have gone anyway? NO. So there lies the problem.
Like i said guys, if you chip your cars, great. Enjoy the car, it will probably be fine. But if it blows up - dont go running to your dealer asking for a new engine under warrantee. Its just not on IMO :(
The way I see it, is you either wait until your 3 years are up before moding, or you admit to SEAT or any manufacturer that you are happy to run the car without a warrantee for the remainder of ownership.
The tuning business has been around for years - no sorry - DECADES but was mainly confined to a small number of older spec engines running tried and tested methods - Hell even the cosworth was only born because of a few kids playing in their tea break with a pinto engine (well the inital idea anyway) the main problem is that the market has not only expanded (look HOW MANY different tuning companies?) but the overall range has moved right up to the latest models,mainly through the manufacturers way of utilising electronics as control methods rather than designing the engines right in the first place (but then CO rules etc are a LOT different and stricter nowadays - thanx to brussles and the USA :( )
With the movement towards the newer models it's brought this situation up right smack into the manufacturers facesand pockets and obviously (because of costs) they dont like it (would you if you were paying?)
I remember the days when BBR did chips and it was rarely seen done on a car under 2/3 yrs old @ least - it is great getting the latest kit and greatest power as we all live in up to date world but i sort of agree with the warranty issue - if you play you pay - the ONLY safest way is to leave alone - then when warranty is up - feel free - blow it to 1000hp and then some
I
I think its time for the whole market to start either getting together and compromising (via endorsed and reccomended aftermarket tuning maybe?) or blanking it altogether and wipe it out (best of luck - lol)
At least if there are reccomended official modifications more people will have a greater reassurance and satisfaction and will of course keep the wide boys out of the quick buck schemes and in turn lower warranty troubles and issues
problem then arises of it becoming a captive market - to ensure you are covered you can only use this company and this product and then as ALWAYS manufacturers just bump up the profit margins and start it all over again a viscous circle
my reccomendation would be for manufacturers (who know the cars best surely) to start waking up to Aftermarket Tuning as now servicing alone offers less profit because of longer intervals and warranty is just a money blower AND block exemption is going to kill off the captive part of the market - so why not JOIN IN and lets ALL do it PROPERLY ???
nice to see @ least MG are willing to give it a go - My respect to em - and IF the subaru rumours are true then shame on them for being so shortminded they seem to be now trying to kill off the market that made them what they are today - MOTORSPORT/AFTERMARKET TUNING without we would most likely be saying SUBA WHO ???
Take PPP for instance - IF they sold it @ a reasonable cost people would be more forthcoming and with the benefits it would add on - everyone would be happy no?
but then does the World EVER stand still long enough to sort anything out ?
cpufreak
21-03-2004, 02:04
My Car's been remapped.
If my engine were to blow up, I would expect the dealer to find the cause of it blowing up before a decision is made on warranty work.
ie if the coolant pipe failed, resulting in the engine overheating and valves getting bent etc off causing the whole thing to go 'bang' or something...I'd expect my engine to be replaced under warranty.
however if it was something caused by or partially caused by the remapped ECU, i would happily admit that I had it fitted, and would contribute towards the costs of fixing it (obviously if it was deemed to be 100% the fault of the remapped ECU, then I'd cough up completely..)
The ability for Revo to be switched from enhanced mode to standard mode is far more from just a trick to deceive dealers/insurance (my revo is declared to insurance), but ables you to:
- switch to enhanced mode for RRdays, long drives, when you want fun etc
- switch to normal mode for town driving, every day use (to save wear and tear on the car).
No matter what rules and regulations there are, provided dealers arent' replaced with robots, the human element will remain, and thus there will be some dealers who do everything by the book, and will refuse to touch cars which have been even slightly modified.
Others (generally the ones who employee enthusasts) will be willing to help out - and by that I don't mean make fradulent claims, but for cases like I described above where a seperate failure unrelated to the ECU remapping (or other mods) occurs they would process the warranty claim anyway.
well said - Short sightedness is the main culprit i fear
I agree - why should a car with a faulty wheel bearing be denied warranty because its power has been uprated ? but then why should warranty pay fo ran item that may well have been pushed past it's design limits by extra power being exerted on it ?
CATCH 22 - and with ANY part you could stick a room full of solicitors on it and NEVER get to the OK it's OUR fault part
All i reckon it needs is some honest hands up we know it's crap OR no sorry NOT our fault sort of decisions to be laid down so EVERY dealer knows exactly what to do (ground rules that are CLEAR)
Manufacturers warranty departments arent there primarily to process fault claims and relay information for future vehicle benefit (although they do usually mind so don't panic) it's main role is to CUT COSTS - best job in the world for an ignorant person - must be i swear as some of the dealer contacts i have come across in the past are the most pig headed people you will ever meet and 9/10 seem to have no regards for customer care whatsoever
so next time you have a warranty claim done - just imagine if you had to go through this : (perfect world scenario mind sorry :p )
supply staff to arrange booking and recieve customers
supply car for customer to use
supply technicians time for diagnosis (manufacturers rarely do)
supply a parts department to stock/supply/process relevant parts
and have purchased special tools/training for the repair to be carried out
only to find that the times allowed are inherently too short
the labour rate is cut to a minimum and only just covers costs
parts is to be sold @ cost price
and then 3 months later because a small irrelevant section of info was not recorded (such as colour) find that the WHOLE cost is to be bourne by the dealer due to the claim being rejected.
I know we all just want our cars to work and so we should - but being a dealer is NOT as easy and money printing as you'd think - thats the part is left to the used car sales :p
Yes i know they all make money in the end - but don't you in Your job ? would you do it for nothing ?
no wonder they all seem to do it differently huh ;)