View Full Version : APR vs Oettinger Comparison
ibizacupra
09-02-2002, 15:20
Follow the link below to see a dyno run conducted on my Ibiza 20VT, comparing APR against Oettinger.
The dyno used was Stealth racings, and the conditions were fully monitored, adequate cooling, and minimal power run times, such that the results were realistic, unlike the Power Station dyno shootout of the 19th Jan, where heatsoak dominated the results on that day.
Interesting point to note between the 2 plots, is the torque curves, and the "area under the curve" which in real terms is sustained "push" from the car.
No overboosting evident on the APR, smooth delivery and sustained torque & power. Likely to be less stressful than peaky sudden surge torque curves evident on other conversions.
Power plot>> http://www.badger-5.go-plus.net/images/apr-oettinger.jpg
Torque plot>> http://www.badger-5.go-plus.net/images/apr-oettinger-torque.jpg
Bill
Steve3961
09-02-2002, 16:23
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Follow the link below to see a dyno run conducted on my Ibiza 20VT, comparing APR against Oettinger.
The dyno used was Stealth racings, and the conditions were fully monitored, adequate cooling, and minimal power run times, such that the results were realistic, unlike the Power Station dyno shootout of the 19th Jan, where heatsoak dominated the results on that day.
Interesting point to note between the 2 plots, is the torque curves, and the "area under the curve" which in real terms is sustained "push" from the car.
No overboosting evident on the APR, smooth delivery and sustained torque & power. Likely to be less stressful than peaky sudden surge torque curves evident on other conversions.
Power plot>> http://www.badger-5.go-plus.net/images/apr-oettinger.jpg
Torque plot>> http://www.badger-5.go-plus.net/images/apr-oettinger-torque.jpg
Bill
Very interesting Bill,
Both chips give virtually the same power and Torque but in very different ways and times.
The APR chip certainly looks better than the oetinger one, much smoother and progressive,
Oetinger one looks a bit jumpy? Could this be your problem i wonder? Hence 193bhp instead of 207?
ibizacupra
09-02-2002, 16:39
Originally posted by Steve3961
Very interesting Bill,
Both chips give virtually the same power and Torque but in very different ways and times.
The APR chip certainly looks better than the oetinger one, much smoother and progressive,
Oetinger one looks a bit jumpy? Could this be your problem i wonder? Hence 193bhp instead of 207?
I have received in the last few days a dyno plot from Oettinger for the 20VT Ibiza. Mine has a more abrupt spike initially than their plot, but the shapes otherwise look very similar. Torque from their plot though is a tad over 236lb/ft though, which is higher than I have ever seen on my own car, and bhp was 198bhp. This was chip only I believe.
The torque plot does'nt match the advertised "210" figures for some reason. It exceeds the torque by quite a margin... I wonder why these figures are not used to promote the conversion especially as they look much higher.
http://www.seatcupra.net/images/amethyst/tune/210%20menu.JPG
"210" Package is rated at: 207bhp @ 5900rpm and 205lb/ft at 3400rpm
Dynoplot received has over 236lb/ft torque at approx 2900rpm and 198bhp @ 5900rpm from chip alone (I presume) - my figures don't match.
Bill
cordobabrendy
09-02-2002, 19:46
have to say that if i had a 20vt engine teh apr looks more inviting as teh torque looks like it stays longer along the revs.
my tuppence worth.:)
do they drive any differently though Bill, cos at the end of the day, it's how it goes on the road (not silly numbers on bits of paper) that matter isn't it??"
When I drove teh APR Ibiza it felt like it had a huge engine.
It had just a truck load of torque & just kept accelerating
Conversly both AmD & Oettinger'd Ibiza's I've driven give a huge kick when the turbo kicks in (giving a feeling of speed)
The APR is much smoother to drive.
Felt like the Straight 6 in my parent onld 2.8L Nissan.
M
ibizacupra
11-02-2002, 08:32
Originally posted by v6dub
do they drive any differently though Bill, cos at the end of the day, it's how it goes on the road (not silly numbers on bits of paper) that matter isn't it??"
They do drive very differently, more than the plots would show.
APR's does'nt drive like a turbo car, with a very smooth and ever increasing power delivery. The Oettinger is very fast to spool upand responsive, but in a rush.... overboost... which then tails off (on mine), where the APR's just keeps going.
If you jumped from a stock car into an APR or Oettinger'd one you would go wow!, as both conversions kick some serious arse against stock. The WOW factor and initial overboost surge on the Oettinger (mine again) can make you think its the faster chip, but it is'nt as when it starts to tail off, the APR's gets into its own and continues to pull harder and longer.
On the dyno, acceleration times were plotted for the same power runs, APR against Oettinger (mine), and the APR's acceleration run was about a second faster.
On the road, the APR did'nt feel faster as it has a well managed boost, but when you watched the speedo you thought :eek: as the speedo was rushing up.... Sorry Officer! :D
If in doubt, have a go in APR's demonstrators...
Bill
I'm going to Jabbasport tomorrow for a RR session on mine. Upsolute have done me a new chip after I complained so hopefully I'll have that in and I let you know the results.
Bill can I fax you the dyno plot to put on the forum as I don't have a scanner.
Forgot to say the APR plot looks the BIZZ!!!!
Send it to me if you like wayne,
I'll scan you the original & post it back to you
Faxed might look a bit poo
Originally posted by whelme
I'm going to Jabbasport tomorrow for a RR session on mine. Upsolute have done me a new chip after I complained so hopefully I'll have that in and I let you know the results.
Bill can I fax you the dyno plot to put on the forum as I don't have a scanner.
I know this is Bill's thread:
but I just sat here & re read your post re: upsolute
do you find it acceptable that the chip had problems?
I'm just nosey as everyone I have spoken to has said "it's not bad for the price"
M
Originally posted by MarkP
I know this is Bill's thread:
but I just sat here & re read your post re: upsolute
do you find it acceptable that the chip had problems?
I'm just nosey as everyone I have spoken to has said "it's not bad for the price"
M
The problem is that the fuel economy is crap. I have to drive like a grandad to get what I used to on the standard chip when I could give it a blast now and then.
I accept if your thrashing about it will be low but cruising at 75-80mph it on give 29-30mpg and Upsolute claim 5-10% better fuel economy.
They have done two more chips, one a alteration on my present program and a completely new version apparently, so I'll put them to the test.
It's like anything else, if there's a problem and the company make an effort to/or repair the problem that's not bad. This would be unacceptable if they ignored you.
I think though the Jabbasport route may be better as it is about another £70 and the chip iss mapped for your car, not just a standard program.
Cheers Wayne,
that's what I thought. I guess it's cheaper cos they develop it on your car? or by customer feedback?
M
Just as an aside
Did a jaunt up to Hull over the w/end, set the cruise control at 90-95 mph and got 33.6mpg on the computer.
Was quietly impressed
:)
That's better than the twin turbo does!!
congrats saul "man of economy"
I infrequently do motorway miles, but i have noticed a marked increase in MPG now im able to use cruise control, i suspect that cause my foot isn't hovering over the pedal its a more smooth delivery of fuel rather than letting off ad putting it back again.
Well i only have the one turbo as against your 2 mark, o i would hope it was better ;)
I had my ibiza done last fri @ APR
WOW what a difference no more surging just controlled on tap power everywhere!
it feels move like a big V6 than a 1.8t
asre weather and heavy drinking has stopped play on real road test for this weekend.
1st impressions
Seat of the pants dyno on the way home was very impressive with good pick up in higher gears when just rolling on the throttle.
Switching between programs makes you appreciate the difference between the standard seat program and the apr programme not just the power but driveability.
Cruise Control very handy for those boring motorway jaunts.
Valet mode limited revs about 4k ok for the lady friend to do the shopping in now and then, she has got a 1ltr ibiza she did like mine std thought it was to fast.
If you are thinking of chipping your 20vt i would recommend this route. (you pays your money etc etc.)
Big thanks to Mark & Richard @ APR for their professional approach and insight .
Regards
John
:cheers:
Wicked
I like the idea of sticking it in 'shit' mode for crap drivers
if only I could limit my 60bhp somehow :D
Bill,
Correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the APR chip run 1 bar of boost, thats 14psi right. The Oettinger one, according to previous posts, runs 12psi, but they both create the same power, and roughly the same amount of torque. Does that not make the Oettinger chip a superior product, in the fact it can get the same amount of power as others, with less boost?.......
Just an observation....
Anyway when are you getting your APR chip fitted ?
Who says the Oettinger one is 12psi? It doesn't. only RSD think it does (i think)
how can it be superior to APR when it has a torque ski run?
The two graphs show the difference. Torque throughout the range - or just a big ol kick up the arse.
ibizacupra
12-02-2002, 21:03
Originally posted by v6dub
Bill,
Correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the APR chip run 1 bar of boost, thats 14psi right. The Oettinger one, according to previous posts, runs 12psi, but they both create the same power, and roughly the same amount of torque. Does that not make the Oettinger chip a superior product, in the fact it can get the same amount of power as others, with less boost?.......
Just an observation....
Anyway when are you getting your APR chip fitted ?
Well.... what can I say.
Ignore the 12psi comments you may have read. They are not factual. Mine spikes to 17-18psi then drops immediately to 14,13,12,11,10,9psi from then on. The drop in boost is the same as you see from the falling torque from the dyno.
The APR sustains its 1 bar boost perfectly and steadily, where the Oettinger one drops its boost after the initial overboost spike.
These measurements are from my own Oettinger conversion.
There would seem to be more ignition advance on the Oettinger than the APR, and given fuel quality and octanes available to us readily, my guess is the APR one is "better/safer" for our 95UL fuels, where as Oettingers I have been led to believe is ideally suited to 98 octane as available in Germany for years now. Running more advance just gets you closer to the knock sense limits where ignition retard will then occur and power will be reduced. We will have to wait until the hot summer (I wish) months are with us to see whether the ambient conditions provoke more detonation (pinking) on our boosted chipped cars.
Time will tell.
Hope this explains.
Bill
Russell_Hayward
12-02-2002, 21:25
Bill
Good post
Some very good comments
I was only wondering today how close to the "det limit" the APR is running.
ibizacupra
12-02-2002, 21:32
Originally posted by Russell_Hayward
Bill
Good post
Some very good comments
I was only wondering today how close to the "det limit" the APR is running.
Good point from yourself also.
My gut feel on this, is how close to the det limit does the Oettinger actually run, having more ignition advance.
APR's seemed well controlled and safe.
Bill
I was at Jabbasport yesterday for a RR session on my Upsolute chip. Good results were got from my original chip. 2 runs approx 15mins between gave 201BHP and 197BHP with 253.6Nm and 253.3Nm. The torque curve doesn't have the boost spike and boost was 0.75-0.8 Barg (10.9-11.6psig).
I had a very good chat with Mike and learnt a lot about remapping. He can basically remap to how you want the car to perform, boost spike or not, more economy etc. He also does a boost controller which allows you to linearly adjust the boost from about 0.5 to 1.0 Barg whilst on the move.
For a remap and boost controller giving upto approx. 205Bhp it's about £450, excellent value and as good as APR or anyone else. He has the proper software for mapping and can change in the region of 500 points in the map as required (I've seen it).
I'm seriously thinking of getting him to do mine so I have more control and he can remap it to suit any further mods very resonably.
The set up there is excellent and very friending informative service.
Originally posted by ZBOYD
I infrequently do motorway miles, but i have noticed a marked increase in MPG now im able to use cruise control, i suspect that cause my foot isn't hovering over the pedal its a more smooth delivery of fuel rather than letting off ad putting it back again.
Mark
Have you had an APR chip fitted as well as the cruise then?
Wayne
Not yet, I had the cruise installed at Awesome GTi last month in readyness for my APR remap.
But there has been a delay, because my car is already chipped by Oettinger/RSD, but i've been unhappy with this package, most of those reasons have been done to death, so im not going to into detail.
But due to the fitment of said chip, my ECU has been required to be replaced.
Anyway as a result, ive had to wait for a new ECU, and certain other issues beyond anyones control, but APR are on the case, ive been informed mine will be done very soon, im including a RR session at Stealth Racing too, to get before and after curves like Bill has done recently.
Ive driven the APR ibiza, i found it to be a superb conversion, and easily drivable and very fast. Don't get me wrong the Oettinger is quick too, but doesn't fill me with customer confidence in the same way.
Also the APR programs make the whole system very configurable, being able to run it standard, which is well worth it for fuel economy if your just sat in traffic, and the security features are also very appealing.
I'll be doing a full review of my experiences for the website and club magazine too.
Have you considered the Jabbasport conversion? If you read my post a couple up I've highlighted a few of the facts and think it's a worthwhile coversion. Jabbasport may be interested in coming to Brunty as well with their Ibiza ans Golf if the clubs is interested. The golf is just being upgraded to 300+BHP.
I didn't get chance to speak to Mike really at the RR day last month, though he did seemed interested in developing something for the Leon, and the brief chat i did have he was very kind and a friendly bloke.
I love the charge cooler idea and would be interested in adding that to my Leon if their able to develop it.
I've already set the wheels in motion with APR, and im quite happy with what im getting done there, though i wouldn't put anyone off from approaching Jabbsport, they are undoubtably very knowledgable.
If your speaking to Mike, and he is interested in coming to Bruntingthorpe for the track day, we'd love to have him.
Ask him to contact Mark Phelps or John Burton asap so we can book him the places.
The Oettinger chip produces 17psi at low revs dropping down to 12psi at higher revs. The max torque is at low revs when the psi is high.
Ben
ibizacupra
14-02-2002, 08:18
Originally posted by BenS1
The Oettinger chip produces 17psi at low revs dropping down to 12psi at higher revs. The max torque is at low revs when the psi is high.
Ben
Yellow plot shows boost during power run. (12psi is 0.8bar)
http://www.badger5.demon.co.uk/bin/dynoplot-vagcom3.xls
APR boost is controlled very differently to the Oettinger boost, in that is pegs to 15psi and stays there... The Oettinger one drops as the revs climb. Both APR and Oettinger drop off at the high rpm, where the small K03 becomes a restriction itself to the airflows demanded at high rpm high boost.
Bill
Bill
Was the APR chip in your car or the demo car?
Are you going to change? if so have you considered Jabbasport it's much cheaper and in my oppinion after seeing their setup just as good.
ibizacupra
14-02-2002, 14:56
Originally posted by whelme
Bill
Was the APR chip in your car or the demo car?
Are you going to change? if so have you considered Jabbasport it's much cheaper and in my oppinion after seeing their setup just as good.
The APR chipped ECU was in my car so a back to back on my own car was possible, to eliminate any differences between cars.
I like the cruise control and extra features of the APR myself. I would use Mike T at Jabbasport for the wilder 300bhp conversion on my sprint car. As my car was bought through Amethyst as a "210" package, my arrangements are being done through/with them.
As a comparison, it was an excellent test though.
regards
Bill
chriskaven
26-02-2002, 12:27
Hello chaps,
I am new to the seat ibiza having just put a deposit on a black cupra. With regard to APR verses oettinger, i would tend to agree that the APR torque curve looks a lot better. Who carrys out the APR chip upgrade in the UK and how much? I see that rsd can do the oettinger and this also does not invalidate the SEAT warranty. Do any of the fitters of the APR calibration/chip provide this warrenty also and how much is this oettinger chip?
Regards
chris
Just to let you know, im due at Stealth on Thursday, im having a similar comparison test doing, though im changing over from Oettinger to APR anyway on that day.
We are doing a run with the Oettinger ECU and then a run with the new APR ECU afterwards. The APR chip in the Leon is designed to give more out than the Ibiza, so it will be interesting to see the resulting comparison. Also under a more controlled situation i can see what the Oettingr is doing also.
But i'll post up the comparing results i achieve on the day for those interested.
Ill be brief, donw want to kick start this all over again.
Be sure, before you purchase, that you read through the RSD "warranty" thoroughly before you buy, and make sure you are happy with what they offer. Im not sure it carries SEAT approval.
APR dont offer any warranty as far as i know, but then again, ill probably get accused of bias anyway.
Its been done to death this chris, and then some.
Go with your gut feeling, for me, it usually works out best.
ibizacupra
26-02-2002, 15:52
Originally posted by Saul
Ill be brief, donw want to kick start this all over again.
Be sure, before you purchase, that you read through the RSD "warranty" thoroughly before you buy, and make sure you are happy with what they offer. Im not sure it carries SEAT approval.
APR dont offer any warranty as far as i know, but then again, ill probably get accused of bias anyway.
Its been done to death this chris, and then some.
Go with your gut feeling, for me, it usually works out best.
I'll add my 2 pennth.
The APR offering does not carry a warranty on engine and non-Seat UK covered parts, in the event of Seat UK refusing solely down to the chip conversion. RSD self cover this "risk".
APR will warranty any work they undertake of course, but the risks of non chip related component failures being blamed on the chip are potentially high and difficult to police and validate.
APR has additional features which other chip tuners do not offer at the moment, and APR's price is reasonable given the comparitive costs of an Oettinger chip for example.
The total package should be considered, and this includes the customer service you will receive both before BUT more importantly AFTER the sale. This is the single largest difference between suppliers.
You pays your money and you takes your choice... at the end of the day.
Good luck and Enjoy.
regards
Bill
redcupra
25-03-2002, 08:21
Hi guys, just thought I would drop a line in here, had my car set up on the rolling road on Saturday, I have the RSD conversion and power was topped at 209bhp @ 5600rpm, this is without the freeflow exhaust system. So with the exhaust I can presume about an extra 5bhp, taking my car over the claimed 210 conversion.
Am well pleased with these results, and as usual the excellent customer service I have recieved from Danny and Tony at RSD.
Not trying to stir up any trouble of course, but as people say, you spends your money, and you takes your chances!:D
Glad to see you are happy and get good results. I believe there are only a few people with problems and they don't seem to be getting good customer service, for whatever reason.
I think the real test of a good tuner is what is done when customers have problems. If there aren't any is it just luck or a great product? I think luck as nothing is perfect, and it seems Seats are far from it in some cases.
ibizacupra
25-03-2002, 08:57
Originally posted by blackcupra
Hi guys, just thought I would drop a line in here, had my car set up on the rolling road on Saturday, I have the RSD conversion and power was topped at 209bhp @ 5600rpm, this is without the freeflow exhaust system. So with the exhaust I can presume about an extra 5bhp, taking my car over the claimed 210 conversion.
Am well pleased with these results, and as usual the excellent customer service I have recieved from Danny and Tony at RSD.
Not trying to stir up any trouble of course, but as people say, you spends your money, and you takes your chances!:D
Well done.
Good results.
I am pleased for you.
regards
Bill
i had my cupra done at starperformance in glenrothes, its the best thing i have ever spent £800 on. The boys there are very helpful and fast. Cheers again Starperformance!:p
I'm hoping to get mine done soon at Star Performance as I work in Glenrothes it's pretty handy. What do you get for £800 ? The standard upgrade is £699 inc VAT and fitting and cruise control £175. Is that all you need?
Originally posted by John
I had my ibiza done last fri @ APR
WOW what a difference no more surging just controlled on tap power everywhere!
it feels move like a big V6 than a 1.8t
asre weather and heavy drinking has stopped play on real road test for this weekend.
1st impressions
Seat of the pants dyno on the way home was very impressive with good pick up in higher gears when just rolling on the throttle.
Switching between programs makes you appreciate the difference between the standard seat program and the apr programme not just the power but driveability.
Cruise Control very handy for those boring motorway jaunts.
Valet mode limited revs about 4k ok for the lady friend to do the shopping in now and then, she has got a 1ltr ibiza she did like mine std thought it was to fast.
If you are thinking of chipping your 20vt i would recommend this route. (you pays your money etc etc.)
Big thanks to Mark & Richard @ APR for their professional approach and insight .
Regards
John
:cheers:
i echo every word of this !!! shame no K&N elemnt filters thou :(
8 week back order :mad: :mad: