View Full Version : Revo technic confusion
dannyleonturbo
25-05-2004, 22:02
Im want to remap my car and have notived that the revo is the best but i am confused about the prices, one website says £499, but is that the sp1, 2 or 3 and does it include the little gadget to plug into the ecu connector, please help, Danny
answered many times...
BUT
£499 (plus vat) gets you the software uploaded & functioning on the car
if you want to switch it at any point after then you'll need an SPS unit (gadget as you call it)
Cheers
Mark
Icecavern
25-05-2004, 22:06
£499 is just for the program, you then have to buy which ever sps device you want sepatately.
Pete
dannyleonturbo
25-05-2004, 22:10
they are 3 sps units, so the one you opt for depends on what software you get uploaded or is it all the same software they will upload to the leon, sorry to sound ignorant but i dunno much about all this tuning stuff so i will need some enlightening, thanks. Danny
all the software is the same.
Heres how i understand it anywho... (i am a newbie too)
Software is identical no matter what.
sp1 gives u the option for standard software or revo software at the flick of the switch
sp2 gives u the standard or revo software, and anti-theft whereby the ecu is disabled
sp3 gives u full control of the boosts etc available so that u can change the settings, and all of the above options on cheaper sp devices
The sp devices are what u plug in to change the settings (the so called gadgets)
Software install is £499, think the sp devices start at an additional £200 on top, and then u might want to upgrade the dump valve etc......
hope this is right, and hope it helps!
the sps2 also adapts settings for 95 or 98 octanes fuels.
CupraR-Rog
26-05-2004, 02:46
Already mentioned in this thread, but the latest posts seem to have omitted this little detail...
REVO PRICES ARE +VAT @ 17.5%
So, the re-map costs £499 + VAT = £586.33
Ruddmeister
26-05-2004, 08:15
But you don't have to buy any of the SPS units, just leave it alone if you want. There was an SPS unit for sale second hand on here the other week....you can buy one any time (or never).
SPS units start at £150(SPS1), £200(SPS2) and £250 (SPS3) AFAIK, and don't forget the VAT as Rog says.
Personally I love gadgets etc so had to have the SPS3 but the full Revo plus SPS3 was over £850.
Jabba is probably cheaper £475 I think but you may want to add a boost controller £115 ish but these figures incl VAT
I also think Revo customer support is very good, for example - Free updated version of the code loaded onto my car when Revo tweaked the code.
Each to his own
if you pranged your car and haven't told your insurance about REVO , you could just detach the SPS and know one is any the wiser ?????????
if you pranged your car and haven't told your insurance about REVO , you could just detach the SPS and know one is any the wiser ?????????
physically the revo code is as blind with it switched "on" as it is switched "off" except it will of course hopefully drive a bit quicker with it turned on :p
so in answer to your question there is no need to use the sps switch if your car is a write off!
note revo is NOT a remap, but a generic upgrade.. don't confuse the two!
dannyleonturbo
26-05-2004, 22:14
I thought it was a remap, so whats the difference between the two and whats the best?
note revo is NOT a remap, but a generic upgrade.. don't confuse the two!
As far as I'm concerned it is a remap, just not a custom one. Unless your lucky.. :rolleyes:
As far as I'm concerned it is a remap, just not a custom one. Unless your lucky.. :rolleyes:
a rich special eh mate? :D
vern
a rich special eh mate? :D
vern
yeap..gotta love the guy.. :)
no a remap means its tailored for your car..
Apologies for crossposting across forums (but it is relevant..), I wrote this last year sometime before I decided to get an LCR ( was going to go S3 at the time.. )
Difference Between A Remap And A Chip... (http://www.audi-sport.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=technical&Number=9121&Forum=All_Forums&Words=mappable%20ecu&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1505&Search=true#Post9121)
But a remap can be generic too
no! if its generic its the same as every other car thats had that brand upgrade installed. If its been remapped it differs.. a one off, a custom map..
apart from the fact that it's wrong.... unless oettinger now do customs which they don't
i could dyno your car to tell you within reason whatever you like... so i could argue the point about 'what does that prove' quick adjustment of temperature / pressure & bob's your uncle.
I would think it depends on how you look at it. They way I look at it, a remap is having things re-written on your ECU, instead of having the chip physically removed and replaced.
Besides as Ed just mentioned all "remaps" start from a generic base. I'm sure some parameters get tweeked individually, fueling, boost, etc. But they all start from the same point.
So I'd call it the generic Vs. custom jobbies... :)
But why can't you remap every car to the same values? (bit like base map for prog ecus)
someone ( i forget who ) was using oettinger base maps and then remapping from there at the time..
Sure, a dyno run after install can prove that the car is performing correctly in upgraded guise, but a remap should yield better results than a generic solution ( provided the mapper is worth his salt ). This becomes moreso as the car gets older and the amount fo wear etc deviates between cars..
Not quite sure what you mean about a adjustment of temperature/pressure ?
IMHO even a remap is a compromise.
But why can't you remap every car to the same values? (bit like base map for prog ecus)
Thats a generic solution.. any good engine builder will tell you that no 2 engines are the same, hence a custom map is made for each.. the previous poster has it spot on, you start with a base map and adjust that for every engine..
someone ( i forget who ) was using oettinger base maps and then remapping from there at the time..
Yeah.... i forget too. I think it *might* have been elvis...
the point being - (and you're right) in aspects that it's down to the person doing the mapping. the problem also arises (as geoff of ex amd had) he'd remapped SO many cars that once he'd got any car in - he had a map to put on. by this I'm generalising to 8v & 16v & VR6 cars but with all varients of mods.
I'd like to see how someone can make an already sorted map better by tweaking it more - wouldn't the 1st person feel hard done by?
I'll put it that once each remapper has 'sorted' each type of map he wants to sell (smooth / high power / midrange) that they do no more work on it.. after all - that would be saying that they didn't do it right the first time surely?
Hadn't thought of that m0rk. Very valid point there.
Thats a generic solution.. any good engine builder will tell you that no 2 engines are the same, hence a custom map is made for each.. the previous poster has it spot on, you start with a base map and adjust that for every engine..
But what you call generic is having a generic code uploaded or installed. A remap to me is where the existing table values are altered. Now this could be done a la custom or by using the same values for all cars. No? If I take my car to AmD for a remap, then they can make as many adjustments as they see fit to eek out the most from the engine/ecu combination or they could look at the data from the last 16v and think that's going to work too. Is this not a remap then?
Yeah.... i forget too. I think it *might* have been elvis...
R&A ? R&D ? something like that I think.
the point being - (and you're right) in aspects that it's down to the person doing the mapping. the problem also arises (as geoff of ex amd had) he'd remapped SO many cars that once he'd got any car in - he had a map to put on. by this I'm generalising to 8v & 16v & VR6 cars but with all varients of mods.
Sure, he had a base map to work from, but say he came across a car that had a non standard cam in ( say it had another 1mm of lift and a slight increase in duration), he'd alter the map to take advantage of the characteristics of the cam. In this case you'd certainly see an incrase from the generic map to the custom map.
I'd like to see how someone can make an already sorted map better by tweaking it more - wouldn't the 1st person feel hard done by?
Different approaches, Im a software developer, one of my colleagues and I can write very similar code that does the same thing but one might be more streamlined, faster, more efficient, use less memory etc.. the slower one will work fine, but if you can at all help it you make the code and fast and efficient as possible.
I'll put it that once each remapper has 'sorted' each type of map he wants to sell (smooth / high power / midrange) that they do no more work on it.. after all - that would be saying that they didn't do it right the first time surely?
No, each engine is different. E.G. I've seen 2 identical cars run on the same rollers, within 10 minutes of each other, 3 runs for each car, the second car was consistently producing more power and more torque than the first. similar mileages too... each engine is different.. especially if other mods are present... there is no way to have a generic solution that is perfect for every engine. Its a bit like saying that we dont need seats that adjust because we are all humans so we should all sit on a car the same way.. but its not like that, we are all different shapes and sizes, hence we need the adjustability to be comfortable, reach the pedals etc.
But what you call generic is having a generic code uploaded or installed. A remap to me is where the existing table values are altered. Now this could be done a la custom or by using the same values for all cars. No? If I take my car to AmD for a remap, then they can make as many adjustments as they see fit to eek out the most from the engine/ecu combination or they could look at the data from the last 16v and think that's going to work too. Is this not a remap then?
This is called splitting hairs.. :)
You are correct in your explanation of a remap.
Strictly speaking if no map values were changed, then its a generic solution isnt it.
My last car had a generic solution from superchips and also had a variety of other mods, using some crude devices the previous owner felt the fuelling wasn't correct.. He took the car to superchips direct and asked them to map it ( a remap ).. when the car came back it was like a different car, smoother, faster, more torque etc. This is not only his opinion, 3 other people who drove the car before and after said exactly the same thing... Of course I should of taken it one step further and run a fully mappable ECU..
if I told you a 2.0 8v engine from a Mk2 cavalier Sri (+some upgraded internals ) combined with a T3 turbo and a mappable ECU could return consistent 11.3 second quarter miles on offical FIA timing gear would you believe me.... ?
OK - IF that was the case and fitting an aftermarket exhaust / decat sports cat was classed as a mod.
what would you do to adapt this map to suit?
is it free-er flowing? shall we put some more gas thru it? get it out faster? no - cos that would mean upping the boost.
I agree that it makes sense for big FMIC's as there is a HUGE change, but if you think that someone can 'tweak' a map to suit an air filter... lmao
anyway...
we take these 2 identical cars back to back & dyno them - they're a million miles apart & nobody knows why. after all - they were made on the same production line using the same parts.
one produces 20bhp less than the other - are you trying to tell me that a tuner that will custom map the car will get both cars the same, or both cars the same difference apart?
I think you may either have been led up the garden path, or you're not seeing the whole solution.
it all goes back to the same thing at the end of the day - if I set myself up with a dyno & the right chiptuning software I could tell you your car has whatever power you want. now that doesn't make it better does it?
OK - IF that was the case and fitting an aftermarket exhaust / decat sports cat was classed as a mod.
what would you do to adapt this map to suit?
is it free-er flowing? shall we put some more gas thru it? get it out faster? no - cos that would mean upping the boost.
Wouldn't you just tweek the exhaust map... :p
I'll grab me coat... :runaway:
so u can have a generic remap /splitting hair mode off lol
OK - IF that was the case and fitting an aftermarket exhaust / decat sports cat was classed as a mod.
what would you do to adapt this map to suit?
Pass. It dpeneds on the car, have you removed a cat ? replaced with sports cats ?
Possibly no changes would be made..
is it free-er flowing? shall we put some more gas thru it? get it out faster? no - cos that would mean upping the boost.
Err.. what has a freeflowing exhaust got to do with boost ?
I agree that it makes sense for big FMIC's as there is a HUGE change, but if you think that someone can 'tweak' a map to suit an air filter... lmao
In all seriousness.. in theory you could map to take advantage of a air filter. Lets say the car in question has big problems with heat soak and the owner has resolved this by ensuring there is a good constant cold air supply to the inlet... intlet temps would be lower, which could be enough to alter the map.
anyway...
we take these 2 identical cars back to back & dyno them - they're a million miles apart & nobody knows why. after all - they were made on the same production line using the same parts.
one produces 20bhp less than the other - are you trying to tell me that a tuner that will custom map the car will get both cars the same, or both cars the same difference apart?
No, I didn't say that, what I'm illustrating is that two engines that, as you say came off the same factory floor can behave very differently. I've driven cars that feel flat and are down on power, then got into another car that is "the same" to find the engine is smoother, pulls better, has more power... and this is before mods!
I think you may either have been led up the garden path, or you're not seeing the whole solution.
it all goes back to the same thing at the end of the day - if I set myself up with a dyno & the right chiptuning software I could tell you your car has whatever power you want. now that doesn't make it better does it?
[/QUOTE]
Quite the opposite, I think its *you* not seeing the full picture.
Generic maps survive because they have a low investment for the tuner - once they have done their map ( probably hired a rolling road for a while to work on, maybe even hired the mapper ) there is no more outlay, they don't even need premises. they can sell for a few hundred quid less than a remap and make a pretty healthy profit.
To provide remaps or one off maps you need premises, probably a rolling road, a skilled technician who can map an engine, fault find, etc.. you have a constant outlay for wages, rent, equipment etc, the process takes longer, so you have to charge the punter more. Sure, the smart ones will know thats its probably worth it ( especially if you have a good reputation ) but at the end of the day its all down to cost, the average johnny might not have another couple of hundred quid for a remap.. might not want to spend that much...
If you think Im wrong please do phone someone like Mark Shead/Ahmed Bayjoo or one of the other hundreds of *proper* tuners out there and try telling him that a generic solution is just as good.
Dynos are inaccurate in that they vary (from place to place, day to day etc..).. thats why most dyno operators will run the car 2 or 3 times.. what they are useful for is measuring gains, before and after if you like. yeah sure there are ways to cheat dynos to make it look that a car has power etc than it really does - Im not interested in that - its what the car feels like on the road thats most important. Mapping a car on the rollers is fine, but the proof of the pudding is on the road.. In fact I know of at least three tuners that do map a car on the road, at least for the final alterations.
you guys need to calm down...[/caffeine]...LOL
And then the bosch ECU will adapt to the way the person drives the car and before you know it you've lost the 6bhp you gained from the custom map in the first place.
I can't be assed go thru answering each point. but what's the crack with talknig about Mitsubishi tuners? Why would I go tell them that a generic mod isn't as good? I don't know - but I'll go ask all the FQ300 owners if they're happy.
You're either not reading what I've written, or you don't understand. Either way you're either amazingly more informed than me - OR (as I suspect) you read a lot & regurgitate it.
How are inlet temps going to be reduced from a air filter? makes no difference once you squash it all up & the temp goes through the roof.
Final question - if you can fudge a dyno - how do you know that a custom is better than a generic? on the road figures can't be accurate as there really are too many variables.
yawn, i'm off to sleep
this really is dull having a pissing contest.
Apologies for crossposting across forums
yeah - wish you hadn't...
What Im trying to get across to you ( and anyone else reading this far ) is that theres much more out there than the "bolt on" upgrades.. and that they may not always be the best way forwards.
Yeah I read alot, but I also do my own research when I want to find something out and talk to do people who do know.
If you can't understand how cooler inlet temps (from a decent cold air feed) will affect an engines performance maybe you should go and find out for yourself before amking assumptions and guessing.
air filters & cold air feeds aren't the same thing - that was my point...
ibizacupra
27-05-2004, 09:36
But what you call generic is having a generic code uploaded or installed. A remap to me is where the existing table values are altered. Now this could be done a la custom or by using the same values for all cars. No? If I take my car to xxx for a remap, then they can make as many adjustments as they see fit to eek out the most from the engine/ecu combination or they could look at the data from the last 16v and think that's going to work too. Is this not a remap then?
Assuming they can in fact remap, and not simply install a library file from a similarly tuned (or close as they have to said) engine. Offering a before and after dyno to demonstrate a difference.
A tell tale is how long it takes... Less than 1/2 day is more than likely a rechip, not a remap.
I thought this was all about whether Revo was a "remap" or a "generic upload", then it seemed to turn into a discussion about whether "custom" or "generic" was "better".
If there is no physical chip change in any of the serial port programming products, then only the values in the stock map are changed - I guess this might be where the grey area is, as this to many would be classed as a remap. Similarly, Jabba (traditionally, anyway) rechipped then remapped cars.
Perhaps we should carefully use the terms "generic remap" and "custom remap" to differentiate the two? I guess "bespoke" might work, but I'm struggling for a different word for "generic".
As to which is "better", that's more opinion based and relies on too many factors - like the air filter/CAI/exhaust/camshaft/bigger turbo and at what point do you get a custom remap discussion. If any one person has chosen a custom remap over a generic one, even on an otherwise standard car, then a custom remap is better for them. And so it is the other way round, generic remap even on a heavily modified car.
But IIRC Revo doesn't change any values but adds data to 'spare' space ....
"generic doesn't change any values but adds data to 'spare' space upload" then?
ibizacupra
27-05-2004, 11:52
we take these 2 identical cars back to back & dyno them - they're a million miles apart & nobody knows why. after all - they were made on the same production line using the same parts.
one produces 20bhp less than the other - are you trying to tell me that a tuner that will custom map the car will get both cars the same, or both cars the same difference apart?
Exhibit (a) - My Oettinger chipped (TUV) approved "210" kit. On mine 188bhp on others near 210bhp.
When IHI'd initially my motor 325bhp, Jabba's 339bhp - Identical kit, same car.
Custom remap cannot fix or improve inherant (deficiencies) mechanically.
ibizacupra
27-05-2004, 11:56
If you think Im wrong please do phone someone like Mark Shead/Ahmed Bayjoo or one of the other hundreds of *proper* tuners out there and try telling him that a generic solution is just as good.
Who? and 'proper'? :confused: :rolleyes: :whistle:
Its my understanding that generic chips are fine if you have not done that much to your engine, and because of a modern car's ability to sense whats going on itself, any manufacturing differences in the engine can be accomodated just fine.
Where they fall down is when you start doing quite significant mods to the engine, like changing cams, headwork, increased capacity etc - then even though the sensors tell the ecu its wrong, there is not enough takeup / slack in the system to accomodate the large changed needed with the modded motor. This is where the 'custom' chips come in - written specifically for the car.
Of course in reality, most people dont dramatically mod their engines, only things like airfilters and exhausts, and thus the market for 'off the shelf' chips is large and they manage quite well with the small variation in engine requirements out there
Cheers
Rob
Exhibit (a) - My Oettinger chipped (TUV) approved "210" kit. On mine 188bhp on others near 210bhp.
When IHI'd initially my motor 325bhp, Jabba's 339bhp - Identical kit, same car.
Custom remap cannot fix or improve inherant (deficiencies) mechanically.
I know that bill - I was looking for crafty's reasoning.
ibizacupra
27-05-2004, 12:20
I know that bill - I was looking for crafty's reasoning.
I know mate :) :thumbup:
Its my understanding that generic chips are fine if you have not done that much to your engine, and because of a modern car's ability to sense whats going on itself, any manufacturing differences in the engine can be accomodated just fine.
Where they fall down is when you start doing quite significant mods to the engine, like changing cams, headwork, increased capacity etc - then even though the sensors tell the ecu its wrong, there is not enough takeup / slack in the system to accomodate the large changed needed with the modded motor. This is where the 'custom' chips come in - written specifically for the car.
Of course in reality, most people dont dramatically mod their engines, only things like airfilters and exhausts, and thus the market for 'off the shelf' chips is large and they manage quite well with the small variation in engine requirements out there
Cheers
Rob
I totally agree but just to add a further point, it's worth everyone remembering that the car comes from the factory with a 'generic' chip anyway ... so these arguments that custom is 'better' might not always hold up.
ibizacupra
27-05-2004, 13:26
I refer to these as 'tailored' maps...
Custom for me is fully mappable ECU starting from scratch, and believe me this takes quite some time to get working well & right.
All semantics... however some companies own descriptions are a tad misleading compared to the work they actually do. :rolleyes:
CupraR-Rog
27-05-2004, 15:53
I totally agree but just to add a further point, it's worth everyone remembering that the car comes from the factory with a 'generic' chip anyway ... so these arguments that custom is 'better' might not always hold up.
But, at the same time, my 'generic' stock 210 achieved 234.2bhp @ stealth with 7000 miles on the clock (229.6bhp with 3500 miles), compared to what I have read on here from 'other' 210 LCR's getting iro 215bhp - 220bhp.
Has my car taken to the generic stock map better? Is it all just ecu adaptation? Is my engine one of the 'better' ones from the production line? Or even, is my engine one of the worst from the production line, running boost, timing and fuelling at the extremes of manufacturing tolerance??
My personal thoughts are that, a custom jobbie is better than a generic upgrade because of the points raised about all engines being different, and mods applied.
IMO, adding a CAI with free flow filter, race CAT and free flow exhaust will benefit from a custom over generic solution. Why?? My thoughts are these:
As the car is now breathing a lot better, particularly at high rpm, when compared to the stock air intake & exhaust, the demands on the engine will now be different. With the stock filter & exhaust, the system may have become restrictive at, oh let's say 6000rpm. Because of this, any map based on these parts will 'hold back' the power above these speeds to prevent undue stress - afterall, why waste energy and stress the engine more just to try to suck in air that doesn't want to come, and force it out through an exhaust that can't take it??
Now, with the new filter & exhaust set-up, let's say you gain another 500rpm before it becomes restrictive - that sound fair?? Anyway, you now have potentially useable power until 6500rpm, but the generic solution will still be holding back above 6000rpm, adapting as far as the adaptation tables will allow though. The custom solution will be able to map the engine for this extra 500rpm. This mapping could be raising the boost for these revs, or not retarding the ignition so much, but will include increased fuelling.
But, at the same time, my 'generic' stock 210 achieved 234.2bhp @ stealth with 7000 miles on the clock (229.6bhp with 3500 miles), compared to what I have read on here from 'other' 210 LCR's getting iro 215bhp - 220bhp.
Has my car taken to the generic stock map better? Is it all just ecu adaptation? Is my engine one of the 'better' ones from the production line? Or even, is my engine one of the worst from the production line, running boost, timing and fuelling at the extremes of manufacturing tolerance??
I 'think' you'll find that if you take your engine apart, weigh the components, measure them, analyse the castings, that they will be vary from just about every other engine you do the same to. Now, if every single engine was blueprinted ....
Who? and 'proper'? :confused: :rolleyes: :whistle:
bill these are ecu/tuning gods on the ford rs scene etc :)
vern
Crafty
R+A ETC IS RSD who you were thinking of.................. ;)
vern