View Full Version : Chargecooler vs fmic
At the moment i'm running the standard drivers side ic inline with a much larger fmic (that replaces the passengers side ic) which is more central.Now with my up coming gt28rs turbo being bolted on i've always wondered whether this "dual in-line" ic system on the s3/tt/leon r is causing a significant pressure drop making my turbo work harder to produce more boost.I'm seriously considering swapping to a chargecooler set-up ie the same as bill and jabba,but cannot find any details on it??Is the system proven better than a fmic?
The charge cooler you refer to is the Pace system developed with Jabba.
Sps kidd, custard cupra, morridor and bills new project are 1.8vt motors that use the above. Myself and Mike are developing FMIC for ibiza's, leon's, A3's and Golf MK4.
BILL (badger 5) has loaned a kit for testing at the moment on his ibiza which is handy as he tracks his car regulary, its in a high state of tune and he had a pace system. His testing had good results for the kits.
I have paces 4 core chargecooler also, its okay. But a fmic thats works better is preferable.
Shock_Xe
04-10-2004, 21:19
The charge cooler you refer to is the Pace system developed with Jabba.
Sps kidd, custard cupra, morridor and bills new project are 1.8vt motors that use the above. Myself and Mike are developing FMIC for ibiza's, leon's, A3's and Golf MK4.
BILL (badger 5) has loaned a kit for testing at the moment on his ibiza which is handy as he tracks his car regulary, its in a high state of tune and he had a pace system. His testing had good results for the kits.
As adam said provisional results look good with Sustained low Temps under heavy load which is the Key for a FMIC as its able to sustain low temps alot easier than the charge cooler due to the water getting hot and staying hot unless Ice is used or a very big pre-rad is used.
We also have a Stage 2 core in development which is nearly twice the size of the one we currently use which is to be aimed for track use as its being tested on our development car and Bill is hopefully going to be purchasing one soon if all goes well which should make it a serious alternative
We are also looking at diferent platforms other than the Ibiza, i.e. A3 which will be similar to golf/leon/octavia/TT etc Just a case of time and Money!!!
ibizacupra
04-10-2004, 22:12
so hows the new core? Ready last Monday was'nt it? (is it?)
give us a call chaps..
Ta.
As adam said provisional results look good with Sustained low Temps under heavy load which is the Key for a FMIC as its able to sustain low temps alot easier than the charge cooler due to the water getting hot and staying hot unless Ice is used or a very big pre-rad is used.
We also have a Stage 2 core in development which is nearly twice the size of the one we currently use which is to be aimed for track use as its being tested on our development car and Bill is hopefully going to be purchasing one soon if all goes well which should make it a serious alternative
We are also looking at diferent platforms other than the Ibiza, i.e. A3 which will be similar to golf/leon/octavia/TT etc Just a case of time and Money!!!
I have the Pace Chargecooler. It works really well at the momeny with my chipped Ibiza, but I don't know how well it will work once I'm IHI'd.... only time will tell.
A large FMIC may well be the best option, and I may go that route myself, but at the moment I can't fault the chargecooler.
Mike, just a little correction to what you said above... the pre-rad on the chargecooler isn't the limiting factor on my car, its the cores. If you feel the water in the system after going for a blast the water is still cold.... so a bigger pre-rad wouldn't do anything. If I continue with the chargecooler then I might add some extra cores.
Very interested in your superlarge FMIC though (The one Bill will be trying). If that shows good results, and IF you release it as a kit option then I may have one.
Cheers
Ben
Scotty_b
05-10-2004, 13:08
Hi sounds good but this is gone over my head, is the FMIC better than running the LCR twin intercoolers as my air con rad sits infront of my rad so adding another unit infront will make it worse surly?
Shock_Xe
05-10-2004, 22:29
I have the Pace Chargecooler. It works really well at the momeny with my chipped Ibiza, but I don't know how well it will work once I'm IHI'd.... only time will tell.
A large FMIC may well be the best option, and I may go that route myself, but at the moment I can't fault the chargecooler.
Mike, just a little correction to what you said above... the pre-rad on the chargecooler isn't the limiting factor on my car, its the cores. If you feel the water in the system after going for a blast the water is still cold.... so a bigger pre-rad wouldn't do anything. If I continue with the chargecooler then I might add some extra cores.
Very interested in your superlarge FMIC though (The one Bill will be trying). If that shows good results, and IF you release it as a kit option then I may have one.
Cheers
Ben
But u have a larger pre-rad than normal?? Cause I know bills pre-rad was a limiting factor right?? IF im wrong then opps....... I stand corrected
The fmic we have at rpesent has already proved to be an improvment over bills CC so should imagine the new one can only be better!!
Mike
yeah ben u have the larger pre-rad and i have the smaller one - does take a few mins for the water to cool down on long hard blasts but then i have IHI - looking to get a larger pre-rad and a larger swirl/catch pot thingy and relocate the battery to the boot that should sort any cooling issues out.
But u have a larger pre-rad than normal?? Cause I know bills pre-rad was a limiting factor right?? IF im wrong then opps....... I stand corrected
The fmic we have at rpesent has already proved to be an improvment over bills CC so should imagine the new one can only be better!!
Mike
Depends what you mean by normal. Pace custom make all pre-rads to your spec so there is no normal as such.
Bills pre-rad was a one off too I think. IIRC it was an old aircon rad?
Your FMICs look great and I could well be going for one sometime, but remmeber whilst the bigger FMIC will offer better cooling, it will also probably increase lag slightly too. Still, if the stock Mk4 FMIC is so big then I doubt the extra lag would be noticable.
Cheers
Ben
yeah ben u have the larger pre-rad and i have the smaller one - does take a few mins for the water to cool down on long hard blasts but then i have IHI - looking to get a larger pre-rad and a larger swirl/catch pot thingy and relocate the battery to the boot that should sort any cooling issues out.
Theres still plenty of scope for a much larger pre-rad than I have at the moment.
Did you get your done at Jabba or directly with Pace?
Jabba use the washer bottle as the CC reservour, so if you manage to heat all that water up then it takes ages to cool it back down again. Pace advise using a small reservour so that if it heats up then it will cool back down much more quickly.
Grahamxx said the same thing, although I doubted him at the time.
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
06-10-2004, 15:11
The fmic we have at rpesent has already proved to be an improvment over bills CC so should imagine the new one can only be better!!
Mike
apart from 2psi pressure loss vs my old CC. ~(which is'nt like Bens however.. It was large and very direct/short airflow)
so any news on the new core ready last monday? ;) :bleh:
ibizacupra
06-10-2004, 15:13
Depends what you mean by normal. Pace custom make all pre-rads to your spec so there is no normal as such.
Bills pre-rad was a one off too I think. IIRC it was an old aircon rad?
Your FMICs look great and I could well be going for one sometime, but remmeber whilst the bigger FMIC will offer better cooling, it will also probably increase lag slightly too. Still, if the stock Mk4 FMIC is so big then I doubt the extra lag would be noticable.
Cheers
Ben
My pre-rad was Pace ben.. not aircon rad.. that was Golfy and that CC was cr4p.
you're going to get a slower spooling IHI (slower than a tweeked up K03) so the engine is going to roll in its power ~3K and up. FMIC has'nt made a decernable difference to mine as is... Waiting larger core so can't comment on that at the mo.
bill
ibizacupra
06-10-2004, 15:16
Theres still plenty of scope for a much larger pre-rad than I have at the moment.
Did you get your done at Jabba or directly with Pace?
Jabba use the washer bottle as the CC reservour, so if you manage to heat all that water up then it takes ages to cool it back down again. Pace advise using a small reservour so that if it heats up then it will cool back down much more quickly.
Grahamxx said the same thing, although I doubted him at the time.
Cheers
Ben
and..... think about it.... it heats up because............. pre-rad can't shed heat fast enough so the ballast water as a whole heats up. The weakness being the heat exchange is'nt working fast enough. Less system capacity water heats up faster. The larger water capacity just delays in the inevitable. :)
Shock_Xe
06-10-2004, 18:47
apart from 2psi pressure loss vs my old CC. ~(which is'nt like Bens however.. It was large and very direct/short airflow)
so any news on the new core ready last monday? ;) :bleh:
There is 3x as much pipework compared to CC Plus it was mapped on CC right??
LAst I know on Big FMIC is Adam is having the End Tanks Enlarged on his as they were fairly small as you know, so they doing the biggest they can with that size core, before they do yours so you dont have to be messed about or chop it apart again etc..... Let adam do the R&D and spend his money ;) But there is a core for u, Just end tanks need to be made
and..... think about it.... it heats up because............. pre-rad can't shed heat fast enough so the ballast water as a whole heats up. The weakness being the heat exchange is'nt working fast enough. Less system capacity water heats up faster. The larger water capacity just delays in the inevitable. :)
The main problem with the rate of heat transfer both from charge air-->water and water-->ambient being that the delta temps are smaller than from that from charge air-->ambient (unless of course, you put ice in the reservoir which increases the first transfer delta).
ibizacupra
07-10-2004, 08:10
The main problem with the rate of heat transfer both from charge air-->water and water-->ambient being that the delta temps are smaller than from that from charge air-->ambient (unless of course, you put ice in the reservoir which increases the first transfer delta).
:roflmao: ICE :roflmao:
Now there's an idea :D
winters a coming...
best ye not freeze up your CC systems
and..... think about it.... it heats up because............. pre-rad can't shed heat fast enough so the ballast water as a whole heats up. The weakness being the heat exchange is'nt working fast enough. Less system capacity water heats up faster. The larger water capacity just delays in the inevitable. :)
But thats my point. My pre-rad DOES shed the heat fast enough. It doesn't matter how hard I drive it, the water stays cold. Even after a hard run at Donny the water was totally cold... not even luke warm. Glenn was there when I checked it.
The only time my water heats up is when I'm not moving. ie. in a traffic jam.
So... for fast driving it doesn't matter whether I have a big or small reservour as it will stay cold. However, when I stop for a while the water will heat up, so a large reservour will result in a long recovery time and a small reservour will have a short recovery time.
But yes, in your case Bill it certainly seemed as though the pre-rad wasn't coping, so the more water you had the longer it would take to heat up. I may well find the same thing when I get my IHI.
That said though, whilst my pre-rad is working great, I think I need more cores. When I take it on track the temp rises to about 10C over what I get for hard road driving (And stays there), yet the water remains cold. This implies the problem is in the charge->water (Core) exchange and not the water->air (Pre-rad) exchange. One solution would be to fit more cores (Possibly a 2x3 core parallel system). Once this is done then its entirely possible that the pre-rad could become the problem, although a bigger pre-rad will easily fit.
So, if I'm talking about new cores and a bigger pre-rad then I'm nearly talking about a completely new system!
I'll see how well the CC copes with my IHI and then make a decision on whether to stick with it or go the FMIC route.
Cheers
Ben
:roflmao: ICE :roflmao:
Now there's an idea :D
winters a coming...
best ye not freeze up your CC systems
Yeah, good point.... need to add something to the mixture. Screenwash or something should do it, but that reduces the specific heat capacity of the water.... still I'm sure it wont be a problem given the cold temperatures.
Ben