View Full Version : Brakes are struggling IHI Stage3
What are my options. Current setup it Brembos with stnd pads and discs. Recent brake fluid change along with new brake pads all round and disc's are in very good condition. They are now finding it a little hard to cope what upgrades are available. :cheers:
cordobabrendy
24-12-2004, 19:26
porsche style drilled discs? they couldnt be far from the right size?
ibizacupra
25-12-2004, 09:49
What are my options. Current setup it Brembos with stnd pads and discs. Recent brake fluid change along with new brake pads all round and disc's are in very good condition. They are now finding it a little hard to cope what upgrades are available. :cheers:
Pads and or two piece disks
2 piece AP disks/bells like BenS1 is running will be available in the new year
DS2500 pads or Carbon Metallics both Stop VERY well... Extra heat form extra friction of course tho.
Consider brake ducting onto the setup.
Cheapo 1.4 base models have clip on deflectors (which I have) onto which you can make them better by adding bits..
:thumbup:
yep carbon M. pads are great but i ****ed up my disks with them from the extra heat - cracked them really bad dont know if it is a trade off for the extra stopping power???
Dormouse
25-12-2004, 15:24
It's not the IHI, cos that only lets you get to the speeds you need bigger brakes for slightly quicker. Your chocie is simply a pad with greater friction, bigger pads and discs or more pressure via calipers with more pistons.
TBH in the season of muchos rain i find that the brembo's will lock you up before they slow you down :(
Dor.
Weather here has been cold (not freezing) but the roads have been dry. List of next mod below. Its the fact the car is having to been slowed from higher speeds in a shorter amount of distance/time.
1. Clutch LSD
2. Brakes (better set up)
3. Aquamist
I've got the same setup as you Gary and as you know I don't drive THAT hard. Even still, I've just warped my discs, so I can see why you need better on your car.
Dormouse
25-12-2004, 20:48
Weather here has been cold (not freezing) but the roads have been dry. List of next mod below. Its the fact the car is having to been slowed from higher speeds in a shorter amount of distance/time.
1. Clutch LSD
2. Brakes (better set up)
3. Aquamist
I'm not doing much to mine from now on, but an LSD is one thing I would consider :thumbup:
Maybe it's just the fact it's just takes a shit load of mechanical effort to slow down a tonne+ of metal from high velocities (about 2.2 million N for a beezer at 100mph!) :-o
Dor.
Shock_Xe
25-12-2004, 21:43
Been speaking to a local fitter and he said he could do a 325ml ally bell setup using existing calipers etc, for a fair price, Me and Addo and looking at this route so may be able to help. Also offers bigger rears on existing calipers (Dunno if it makes a difference tho but looks cool) :thumbup:
Also hoping to have a aquamist kit up n running soon (one we put together) so again me be able to help ya out gary, drop me a line
Mike
Will do Mike, i aint after more power but i am after the peformance i have now carrying on into the summer months and aquamist should help with the summers hotter temps. I had a go on some private road (airfield) and went off the speedo if numbers were available it would have been about 175-180mph how fast in real terms (Gps type) i dont know. I had to get on the brakes quickly and with some force. It was a slightly arse nipping type moment
Dormouse
26-12-2004, 10:52
Been speaking to a local fitter and he said he could do a 325ml ally bell setup using existing calipers etc, for a fair price, Me and Addo and looking at this route so may be able to help. Also offers bigger rears on existing calipers (Dunno if it makes a difference tho but looks cool) :thumbup:
Also hoping to have a aquamist kit up n running soon (one we put together) so again me be able to help ya out gary, drop me a line
Mike
That'll help fade, but presumably if your using the same calipers and hence pads, the general stopping power will be the same?
Dor.
Shock_Xe
26-12-2004, 10:59
That'll help fade, but presumably if your using the same calipers and hence pads, the general stopping power will be the same?
Dor.
are u meaning front or rear??
Fronts should reduce fade cause of alu bell
but if you mean rear then I suspected as much, But it will look cool :hide: but isnt the bias only 10/15% so rears shouldnt really fade?? Plus if the discs are bigger shouldnt they shed heat better?? therefore less fade??
Dormouse
26-12-2004, 11:16
are u meaning front or rear??
Fronts should reduce fade cause of alu bell
but if you mean rear then I suspected as much, But it will look cool :hide: but isnt the bias only 10/15% so rears shouldnt really fade?? Plus if the discs are bigger shouldnt they shed heat better?? therefore less fade??
Yes, as I noted it will help fade (with the bells on the front). As you note the rears will do little.
However, what about the dual piston 2 pot rear caliper that brembo fit on the Lancer etc? Maybe if you could wind another 10% extra to the rear and use that, then the front balance under breaking would improve and it would put a little less strain on the front discs and probably stop you a little quicker?
Ref heat shredding, you would have to consider how much more material was in the disc. it'll work better initially as a heat sink, but as for how much it would shred due to the extra width being in a limited airflow is more open.
Ceramic discs anyone? :blink:
Rgs
Dor.
However, what about the dual piston 2 pot rear caliper that brembo fit on the Lancer etc? Maybe if you could wind another 10% extra to the rear and use that, then the front balance under breaking would improve and it would put a little less strain on the front discs and probably stop you a little quicker?
That'd be scary! I reckon the Ibiza is over braked at the rear as standard. Before I fitted the Brembos up front, it always felt like the back end was going to come past the front under heavy braking :-o
Just to update: I said I had warped my front discs. I thought I had due to all the vibration under braking, but on checking, it was the rears that were shagged. Just replaced the discs and pads and found that on one side the pad material had separated completely from the backing :whistle:
No wonder it felt scary :(
Dormouse
26-12-2004, 18:43
That'd be scary! I reckon the Ibiza is over braked at the rear as standard. Before I fitted the Brembos up front, it always felt like the back end was going to come past the front under heavy braking :-o
That's because all the braking effect is all on the front. Unless your locking the rears or braking heaviliy on a corner the rear 'should' be stable. did you have spacers at the time?
Rgs
Dor.
That's because all the braking effect is all on the front. Unless your locking the rears or braking heaviliy on a corner the rear 'should' be stable. did you have spacers at the time?
Rgs
Dor.
I had 6mm spacers, which have now been replaced with 10mm. That said, the Ibiza was never the most stable car under braking was it?
Dormouse
26-12-2004, 20:44
I had 6mm spacers, which have now been replaced with 10mm. That said, the Ibiza was never the most stable car under braking was it?
Your not wrong! :(
Dor.
Extra heat form extra friction of course tho.
Consider brake ducting onto the setup.
Has anyone done that on a Leon any photos?
Thanks
ibizacupra
27-12-2004, 08:55
yep carbon M. pads are great but i ****ed up my disks with them from the extra heat - cracked them really bad dont know if it is a trade off for the extra stopping power???
More friction (stopping power) More heat
Brake ducting req'd.
You WILL NOT FIND BRAKES which will be everlasting on IHI'd motors.
consider them consummables.
ibizacupra
27-12-2004, 08:57
Been speaking to a local fitter and he said he could do a 325ml ally bell setup using existing calipers etc, for a fair price, Me and Addo and looking at this route so may be able to help. Also offers bigger rears on existing calipers (Dunno if it makes a difference tho but looks cool) :thumbup:
Also hoping to have a aquamist kit up n running soon (one we put together) so again me be able to help ya out gary, drop me a line
Mike
Why oh why do you want more rear brakes on a car which is already massively overbraked on the rear???
:confused:
ibizacupra
27-12-2004, 08:58
Will do Mike, i aint after more power but i am after the peformance i have now carrying on into the summer months and aquamist should help with the summers hotter temps. I had a go on some private road (airfield) and went off the speedo if numbers were available it would have been about 175-180mph how fast in real terms (Gps type) i dont know. I had to get on the brakes quickly and with some force. It was a slightly arse nipping type moment
175-180mph?
Your kidding right?
ibizacupra
27-12-2004, 09:01
are u meaning front or rear??
Fronts should reduce fade cause of alu bell
but if you mean rear then I suspected as much, But it will look cool :hide: but isnt the bias only 10/15% so rears shouldnt really fade?? Plus if the discs are bigger shouldnt they shed heat better?? therefore less fade??
Reduce fade?
all depends on whats fading....
If CM pads it is'nt pads fading... its brake fluid and boiling, even with 2 piece disks and ally bells.
Remove your ABS fuse and see how much rear braking there is mechanically... it is'nt low iots way too high... (do this on a quiet private stretch of road as you will likely spin out)
Why oh why do you want more rear brakes on a car which is already massively overbraked on the rear???
:confused:
My thoughts exactly!
I've just replaced my rear brakes with another set of standard discs and pads and it feels great at the mo with them having not bedded in yet! :D
I guess it'll be back to scary when they get some more stopping power after a few miles :clap:
Dormouse
27-12-2004, 11:56
175-180mph?
Your kidding right?
I kinda didn't wanna get into that 'discussion' :roflmao:
Parachute mod Madmile? :whistle:
Dor.
GARY....
get some porker ones on :) also with corrections that makes it as fast as bills beezer with extra mods he has too for Vmax,was he around 168mph @pistonheads day??? :confused:
BILL do you think you have a an engine @ the poor end of the scale,as when looking thro old posts recently your beezer never made anywhere near 210 rsd power hardware or software :rolleyes: ,cant help thinking if you had a fresh built up engine what it would be capable of.Or maybe you have now,i mean block/rods/head etc :confused:
vern
Dormouse
27-12-2004, 13:00
GARY....
get some porker ones on :) also with corrections that makes it as fast as bills beezer with extra mods he has too for Vmax,was he around 168mph @pistonheads day??? :confused:
BILL do you think you have a an engine @ the poor end of the scale,as when looking thro old posts recently your beezer never made anywhere near 210 rsd power hardware or software :rolleyes: ,cant help thinking if you had a fresh built up engine what it would be capable of.Or maybe you have now,i mean block/rods/head etc :confused:
vern
pointless discussion Vern (sorry :( ) as Madmile said he didn't have GPS and at 160 I SERIOUSLY would not believe anything at that end of the dial indicated scale let along aanything beyond it. We all know IHI is fast but that's pretty questionable.
If i get round to it i'll chuck in a few figures just to see if the avilable power is more that that required at 180mhp just to move the required air away from the breezeblock known as the Ibiza... :roflmao:
Dor.
point taken DOR, just would have been interested thats all mate,shame gary did not have a gps for ref :( i know it's pointless but so is a lot of other stuff in life) :rolleyes:
beezer block eh? :thumbup: i know aerodynamics play a huge part as from my RS days with the meets watched peolpe remove back seats,and door mirrors lol for that last 1mph iirc it was an MA developments RS escort @168mph (datron confrimed) when it went head to head againest power engineerings car,even the cossies with 600 bhp+ "hit the wall"@180mph etc
vern
Dormouse
27-12-2004, 13:12
point taken DOR, just would have been interested thats all mate,shame gary did not have a gps for ref :( i know it's pointless but so is a lot of other stuff in life) :rolleyes:
beezer block eh? :thumbup: i know aerodynamics play a huge part as from my RS days with the meets watched peolpe remove back seats,and door mirrors lol for that last 1mph iirc it was an MA developments RS escort @168mph (datron confrimed) when it went head to head againest power engineerings car,even the cossies with 600 bhp+ "hit the wall"@180mph etc
vern
Agree, Vern - just not an advocate of people trying to out 'mile an hour' each other at very high speeds. Cos it could lead to some nasty outcomes :(
Gearings an issue too.
Dor.
i could work it out for ya
just mail me a few bits
weight
bhp peak
torque peak
gearing ratio if changed at all
wheel size/tyre size
probably narrow it down to a mathematical ballpark
aerodynamics are no problem IF you have the power - even this thing does nearly 180 in 1/4 mile
http://www.fbracing.co.uk/images/FBR-023_small.jpg
i could work it out for ya
just mail me a few bits
weight
bhp peak
torque peak
gearing ratio if changed at all
wheel size/tyre size
probably narrow it down to a mathematical ballpark
aerodynamics are no problem IF you have the power - even this thing does nearly 180 in 1/4 mile
http://www.fbracing.co.uk/images/FBR-023_small.jpg
much safer as well daz :D blow out @ those would be game over,maybe not on an airfield though if it was wide eh?
vern
whats an ibiza drag coef? gotta be around 0.35 ish isnt it
got me interested now ya buggers
:)
Dormouse
27-12-2004, 13:47
whats an ibiza drag coef? gotta be around 0.35 ish isnt it
got me interested now ya buggers
:)
Mk2 was 0.32
Mk4 was 0.31
Can't find Mk3 - interpolate!
Dor.
mk3 i hear is 0.34. I reckon the speedo over reads by 10%. As going back to my bike riding days and comparing (Blades etc) i reckon the Ibiza was doing 155-160mph real. CC has been off the speedo without much problem i was behind at 160mph indicated and he was going away from me. What amazes me is how even a slight headwind or a tailwind can make a massive diff.
Hitting 160 on the speedo is pretty easy. It seems to get a second wind at 150mph.
7184rpm @ 144mph
was that rolling roaded in 4th ?
I kinda didn't wanna get into that 'discussion' :roflmao:
Parachute mod Madmile? :whistle:
Dor.
Me and CC had access to some uber-long stretches of road where legality was not an issue.
was that rolling roaded in 4th ?
Yes in 4th the redline is at about 147mph in 4th.
Yes in 4th the redline is at about 147mph in 4th.
what tyre size you running ?
:hide: sorry to be a pest btw :whistle:
ibizacupra
28-12-2004, 08:22
GARY....
get some porker ones on :) also with corrections that makes it as fast as bills beezer with extra mods he has too for Vmax,was he around 168mph @pistonheads day??? :confused:
BILL do you think you have a an engine @ the poor end of the scale,as when looking thro old posts recently your beezer never made anywhere near 210 rsd power hardware or software :rolleyes: ,cant help thinking if you had a fresh built up engine what it would be capable of.Or maybe you have now,i mean block/rods/head etc :confused:
vern
My motor was a lemon comapared to others from day #1. best it ever made when Oettingered was 192bhp @ Jabba just before it got torn down for IHI. When IHI'd it did'nt make the same power as Mikes Ibiza from the same (similar) mods.. Post fuel pump problem and meltdown it had some work done to it, ported head and slightly lower CR from piston machining. Still never as 'good' as Mikes (who ported his head big time :D )
It does the bizz these days because I make it...
New motor is in process now, so who knows what it brings.
Fastest ever from me @ Brunters us 160mph.. Need more than a 2mile straight to get Vmax in mine. On a *private* road, on my spare 02A 16v Ibiza g'box (shorter geared) I did rev out in 5th at 7800rpm on a GPS Ipaq tomtom 173mph. Its fecking scarey at those speeds however. :hide:
My motor was a lemon comapared to others from day #1. best it ever made when Oettingered was 192bhp @ Jabba just before it got torn down for IHI. When IHI'd it did'nt make the same power as Mikes Ibiza from the same (similar) mods.. Post fuel pump problem and meltdown it had some work done to it, ported head and slightly lower CR from piston machining. Still never as 'good' as Mikes (who ported his head big time :D )
It does the bizz these days because I make it...
New motor is in process now, so who knows what it brings.
Fastest ever from me @ Brunters us 160mph.. Need more than a 2mile straight to get Vmax in mine. On a *private* road, on my spare 02A 16v Ibiza g'box (shorter geared) I did rev out in 5th at 7800rpm on a GPS Ipaq tomtom 173mph. Its fecking scarey at those speeds however. :hide:
The new motor will bring more power then bill,1.9l?eh or more? :D bet the bonnet was rattling like a tw*t @ those speeds scary eh?i once read on vortex that the 1.8t can differ about 15bhp from poorest to best,how they measured it i dunno,maybe a factory thing when they engine dyno'd 10 side by side(not chassis)
vern
Dormouse
28-12-2004, 13:16
My motor was a lemon comapared to others from day #1. best it ever made when Oettingered was 192bhp @ Jabba just before it got torn down for IHI. When IHI'd it did'nt make the same power as Mikes Ibiza from the same (similar) mods.. Post fuel pump problem and meltdown it had some work done to it, ported head and slightly lower CR from piston machining. Still never as 'good' as Mikes (who ported his head big time :D )
It does the bizz these days because I make it...
New motor is in process now, so who knows what it brings.
Fastest ever from me @ Brunters us 160mph.. Need more than a 2mile straight to get Vmax in mine. On a *private* road, on my spare 02A 16v Ibiza g'box (shorter geared) I did rev out in 5th at 7800rpm on a GPS Ipaq tomtom 173mph. Its fecking scarey at those speeds however. :hide:
Don't understand personally. Yuo must have changed everything apart from the block? Now unless the cylinder bores are very slightly staggered or out of angle then....
But saying that all blocks are cast from a similar mould (there must be a master to create those) and then it's a case of reaming the bores (dodgy reamer?)
Dunno.
Dor.
The bell mount discs and Performance Friction pads from Bill are working excellently. Never had any kind of fade yet.
My biggest concern now if fluid boiling. I've not had it happen yet, but with the grippier rubber I'll be using (And eventually slicks if I can get a catch/breather system to prevent oil surge) it could soon be a real issue (As it is for Bill).
The next step could then be Liquid cooled calipers!!! Bloody expensive, but they should handle anything!
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
30-12-2004, 10:52
The bell mount discs and Performance Friction pads from Bill are working excellently. Never had any kind of fade yet.
My biggest concern now if fluid boiling. I've not had it happen yet, but with the grippier rubber I'll be using (And eventually slicks if I can get a catch/breather system to prevent oil surge) it could soon be a real issue (As it is for Bill).
The next step could then be Liquid cooled calipers!!! Bloody expensive, but they should handle anything!
Cheers
Ben
I'm hoping that with added brake ducting (wishbone deflectors on now) and the new 76 racing brake fluid (that supercopa's use) will help.
until i get back out on track who knows..
LOL
luv it.. fix one thing then expose another. :rolleyes:
Dormouse
30-12-2004, 11:20
I'm hoping that with added brake ducting (wishbone deflectors on now) and the new 76 racing brake fluid (that supercopa's use) will help.
until i get back out on track who knows..
LOL
luv it.. fix one thing then expose another. :rolleyes:
Now, you could always cast some alloys with spokes the profile of an aerofoil. This would suck so much air through away from the brakes you would never have a problem :thumbup:
Downside...you hit 100mph and your wheels get ripped sideways out your hubs :thumbd:
Dor.
Now, you could always cast some alloys with spokes the profile of an aerofoil. This would suck so much air through away from the brakes you would never have a problem :thumbup:
Downside...you hit 100mph and your wheels get ripped sideways out your hubs :thumbd:
Dor.
There are motorsport wheels that suck air in (Or blow out) to cool the discs. They look horrible though.
Ben
Dormouse
30-12-2004, 12:06
There are motorsport wheels that suck air in (Or blow out) to cool the discs. They look horrible though.
Ben
Design some? Get em cast? I'm sure there's a market for it :D
Dor.
Design some? Get em cast? I'm sure there's a market for it :D
Dor.
I'm not the designy type. I'd probably end up with something that looks like a toilet seat! :redface:
Ben
ibizacupra
30-12-2004, 18:44
Design some? Get em cast? I'm sure there's a market for it :D
Dor.
Compomotive do em
true . they will look nice when your hanging out of a hedge tho bill lol
Dormouse
30-12-2004, 20:13
true . they will look nice when your hanging out of a hedge tho bill lol
LOL :bleh: Function not form :D
Dor.
ibizacupra
30-12-2004, 21:47
true . they will look nice when your hanging out of a hedge tho bill lol
wtf you on abaout? :confused:
wheel>>> http://badger-5.com/bin/th-compomotive-wheel
Dont they only come in Nova fitment ? LOL
Remember the days of the Lancia delta's that looked like they had black fans attached to the wheels ? Cool - still love the look of them
Cheers
Rob
ibizacupra
30-12-2004, 22:47
Remember the days of the Lancia delta's that looked like they had black fans attached to the wheels ? Cool - still love the look of them
Cheers
Rob
yep.. thats what I had in my mind...
wtf you on abaout? :confused:
wheel>>> http://badger-5.com/bin/th-compomotive-wheel
Yep, they're the ones I was thinking of when I said that they are already available but look horrible.
Ben
Ant FR Turbo
19-01-2005, 13:30
another thing you could do, and i have seen thi done on a mates 200sx, Some cars come with the metal brake dust covers at the rear. Now what he did was bend these about a bit to creat an air duct which does seem to work well.
Only trouble to also works too well, eg drive down the motorway late at night for say 20 miles in the wet and the discs are then too cold and really dodgy on the first use. can't have it all......
wtf you on abaout? :confused:
wheel>>> http://badger-5.com/bin/th-compomotive-wheel
lol yeh i read a post on the front page and meant to reply to that , didn't reialize that the thread was 3 pages long stupid me :)
ibizacupra
19-01-2005, 17:45
Lol :)
Dormouse
23-01-2005, 12:51
That wheel looks about right for 'no air circulation at all' :roflmao:
ibizacupra
24-01-2005, 08:52
they had fans on the face on delta integrale's in GRP-A rallying days in the 80's
Dormouse
24-01-2005, 10:39
they had fans on the face on delta integrale's in GRP-A rallying days in the 80's
Dor goes to check his rally yearbooks.....
Dor.
Did you see the Skodas brakes at this years Monte Carlo rally?! :-o
At the end of the stage they were glowing very brightly, and the car was filling up with smoke, apparently from the liquid cooling system!!!
Ben
Amazed that you're not talking about running some ducting to push air into the wheel arch / directed at the disc
Dor - the wheels aren't meant to 'suck' air in - they act as a heatsink
Dormouse
25-01-2005, 09:42
Amazed that you're not talking about running some ducting to push air into the wheel arch / directed at the disc
Dor - the wheels aren't meant to 'suck' air in - they act as a heatsink
I thought Bill was using ducting now?
So if they do work as a heatsink and not as a fan, then there is still milage in a fan based system I recon (by using ducting as M0rk mentions pusing air through from the front onto the discs then drawing it away using the fan approach)
Dor.
ibizacupra
25-01-2005, 11:12
I thought Bill was using ducting now?
So if they do work as a heatsink and not as a fan, then there is still milage in a fan based system I recon (by using ducting as M0rk mentions pusing air through from the front onto the discs then drawing it away using the fan approach)
Dor.
I would say suck air out of the arch by wheel, as the vented rotors are shaped like ducted fans to suck air in the middle and blow it out the edge of the disk.
I have ducting yes, wishbone deflectors, but need more.
Boiling is only apparent on slicks at maximum pasty.. road tyres they're fine.
Dormouse
25-01-2005, 13:37
I would say suck air out of the arch by wheel, as the vented rotors are shaped like ducted fans to suck air in the middle and blow it out the edge of the disk.
I have ducting yes, wishbone deflectors, but need more.
Boiling is only apparent on slicks at maximum pasty.. road tyres they're fine.
Speaking of which have you managed to get a supplier for the discs yet?
Dor.
ibizacupra
25-01-2005, 14:25
Speaking of which have you managed to get a supplier for the discs yet?
Dor.
could you pm me the contact number you gave me before? :whistle:
seem to have mislaid it.. :hide: