View Full Version : internals, tuning, cont'd from JBS thread..
ibizacupra
04-04-2005, 23:21
okey dokey..
continuing from James's JBS 30psi thread..
Engines..
Spec's, options etc.
Rods..
JBS/Arrow jobbies.
Pauter
Eurospec Sport
Pistons..
S3 OE type.
JE, in optional sizes, 82.5mm 83mm & compressions
Head..
Largeport
Valves, inconel & one piece EV80 stainless black nitrided.
Inlet manifold, LD feed, largeport..
Not in existance but one being worked on. TBC
G'box..
02J and a wing and a prayer
02M if it can be made to fit.
Diff, Mandatory really.
All of these mods add up financially. Ker-Ching $$
I fancy Jbs rods S3 pistons and 1 piece valves and gas flowing the stock head. I dont think running my turbo power would go up much even with higher boost. I just want fast spooling, strong mid range power/torque very quick 30-150mph. Say 365bhp 360lbs ft @ the fly. I dont know if its possible or the figs realistic but its nice to dream.
JBS Sales
04-04-2005, 23:40
HI
Large port head is good for IHI
But not really needed for 440bhp with the GT series power bands
large port heads will also give lower ftlb down low, but will give better bhp up top !!
Horses for coarses
Cheers
HI
Large port head is good for IHI
But not really needed for 440bhp with the GT series power bands
large port heads will also give lower ftlb down low, but will give better bhp up top !!
Horses for coarses
Cheers
I guess we'll find out in a couple of week james. I'm hoping for 350hp, 350lb ft, running 1.5 bar from boost onset untill the turbo can't give any more. My guess is 1.5bar to 6k, dropping to 1.3 bar at 7.5k.
Just an educated guess though.
If the next one goes bang, I'm buying an evo. :cheers:
I fancy Jbs rods S3 pistons and 1 piece valves and gas flowing the stock head. I dont think running my turbo power would go up much even with higher boost. I just want fast spooling, strong mid range power/torque very quick 30-150mph. Say 365bhp 360lbs ft @ the fly. I dont know if its possible or the figs realistic but its nice to dream.
I run this but with big port head and .20housing..NICE :thumbup:
ibizacupra
05-04-2005, 08:11
turbo spec's, high boost, or low boost, high flow or low flow
1900 should work well, but as Ben said on the other thread Eurospec list a 2ltr crank.. Hmmm. 1900 will be revvy squaring up the bore/stroke, and on IHI they rev well anyhow.
I wonder how strong the S3 pistons are. They seem pretty durable having been in my mk4, and they're in James's Octy also.
Water pump with metal impellor.. Got to find me one of these too. Dont want to build a new motor with a crappy OE plastic jobbie in there. Only a question of time.
Ported Big Port.. or Ported Smallport. (mine lost low down urge by approx 500rpm when it had its ported smallport done. Still no where near as large as std largeport tho.
Would be interested to know the difference back to back of smalport to largeport on other same engine. Wilko's should show that. Pushing 400+bhp thru a smallport has to be a restriction at those airflows. Good torque from high boost to shove it thru, but maybe lots more power from same/less boost when "unplugged" - Depends if the restriction is exhaust housing or cylinder head I guess.
BillyT runs AEB head which is largeport. 500+whp mind you! WOW!
GOLF GTTi
05-04-2005, 13:31
I fancy S3 pistons.
I have a brand new unused set complete with rings in standard bore for the 20mm pin that I was going to advertise ;)
Selling them as I plan to go to 83mm.
If they're of interest let me know.
ibizacupra
05-04-2005, 14:47
I have a brand new unused set complete with rings in standard bore for the 20mm pin that I was going to advertise ;)
Selling them as I plan to go to 83mm.
If they're of interest let me know.
How much for S3 ones?
I have 83mm JE's ;)
GOLF GTTi
05-04-2005, 15:19
How much for S3 ones?
I have 83mm JE's ;)
Bill I spoke to you on the phone last week (VF22 ;) )
Fancy a PX.... :idea:
I need to do some research and have a chat with those people who are at jbs on the 24th. I was laughing today at work i remember i had said 365bhp 365lbs ft would be nice. As i sat there i thought 400bhp 400lbs ft would be better.LOL.
There no such thing as enough as we are all proof of that. Stage 3 ihi is still fast in its stnd form. It can outpace and hold onto some very fast cars in comparrison. What do people know about Eurospecs stroker engines. I think there 2.2l can they be fitted into an ibiza?.
I'm looking at the JBS BT GT kit for my S3 and am looking at upgrading the internals first, basically for reliable power which is most important to me.
What do you guys think about JBS rods and JBS SS Valves - any experiences?
Also, if you were having this much heart surgery done is there anything else you would get done at the same time? Cambelt for example but of course need to keep within budget, say 2-2.5K for internals?
Car is a BAM 225 with circa 32k...
Dunc
ANDY BLUNT
05-04-2005, 23:00
Quote",Water pump with metal impellor.. Got to find me one of these too. Dont want to build a new motor with a crappy OE plastic jobbie in there. Only a question of time". Bill i have just had my belts ,waterpump etc changed old pump impellor (plastic)was goosed ,bits missing (now found and removed),new pump has brass impellor :thumbup: a mate found one for me from french german and swedish i think.Obviously get them to check the box to make sure its metal type ,any probs ask Gareth @ DUBusiness 07812158216 :cheers: Andy
Yeah I'm sure I've seen sevral threads on here saying that metal impellor versions are available.
So, what do people think about the 2 litre conversion. ie. the 83mm pistons from the 1.9 conversion plus the Eurospec crank which increases stroke slightly to give a 2 litre displacement.
Are there any downsides to such a conversion (Other than cost obviously)? eg. does the increased stroke give the pistons more momentum, and therefore more resistance to changing direction.... thereby making the engine less willing to rev?
Cheers
Ben
trying to work out what teh increase in G force would be on a longer stroke
I think it's gonna be a job for a lunchtime excel spreadsheet.
:)
The cranks are here:
Eurospec Cranks (http://www.eurospecsport.com/eurocrankshafts.htm)
Of course, if the new rods, pistons and crank are all lighter than the stanadard ones then he actual forces could be less.
Is this one of those cases where forces increase at a rate of r squared, where r is the stroke length? Hmmm.
Cheers
Ben
GOLF GTTi
06-04-2005, 10:51
The longer stroke will make it less revy........
Thats what i thought. Hmmm, so will the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?
Ben
max_torque
06-04-2005, 18:05
:)
Is this one of those cases where forces increase at a rate of r squared, where r is the stroke length? Hmmm.
Cheers
Ben
Sort of!
The radial acceleration of the crank will be proportional to the square of it's rotational velocity, but the piston still moves in an up down plane, however it's peak velocity will be higher, because it's got to move a greater distance in the same time, and therefore it's acceleration will be higher too. Typically when fitting a long stroke crank into an existing engine the biggest problem is the reduction in rod length (other wise the piston will stick out the top of the block!) The shorter rod will significantly increase peak acceleration and lateral loading, you may be able to get something back by using a piston that has the pin closer to the top of the piston crown as possible and so package a longer rod than otherwise required by the crank stroke increase. Peak piston speeds of up to 20 to 22 m/s are not a problem for a decently balanced road engine, race engines go towards 25m/s but wear and ring sealing are becoming an issue at these speeds. It should not be an issue on a turbo engine, where the rpm limiting factor tends to be the time to burn the massive cylinder charge, ie peak power at say 7500rpm or less.
I'd consider uprating the clutch if the engine is out.Valvegear and rods should be good enough.
I'm looking at the JBS BT GT kit for my S3 and am looking at upgrading the internals first, basically for reliable power which is most important to me.
What do you guys think about JBS rods and JBS SS Valves - any experiences?
Also, if you were having this much heart surgery done is there anything else you would get done at the same time? Cambelt for example but of course need to keep within budget, say 2-2.5K for internals?
Car is a BAM 225 with circa 32k...
Dunc
Anyone know how Bill got on today at jabba?.
Yeah I'm sure I've seen sevral threads on here saying that metal impellor versions are available.
So, what do people think about the 2 litre conversion. ie. the 83mm pistons from the 1.9 conversion plus the Eurospec crank which increases stroke slightly to give a 2 litre displacement.
Are there any downsides to such a conversion (Other than cost obviously)? eg. does the increased stroke give the pistons more momentum, and therefore more resistance to changing direction.... thereby making the engine less willing to rev?
Cheers
Ben
My 16V has a 92.8mm crank in it and it will go to 8.6K all day long - so unless turbo pistons and rods are much heavier that atmo ones, I dont think you will have an issue with the eurospec 90mm or 92.8mm crank - it will rev for britain so long as the engine wants to breathe
Rob
well these finaly got here today.
http://www.jhwilkinson.co.uk/images/rods.jpg
Ceramic coated piston
http://www.jhwilkinson.co.uk/images/piston.jpg
I've mixed and matched the piston, gudgeon pin, rod sets to get them to within 0.8g. each combo weighs 1001g, so 0.08% weight variation. :cheers:
I've mixed and matched the piston, gudgeon pin, rod sets to get them to within 0.8g. each combo weighs 1001g, so 0.08% weight variation. :cheers:
and who says you don't know how to have fun :)
it'll be very interesting to compare the remaining rods & bits from your current set (assuming james hasn't set upon them yet)
(note to self, don't take the pee, then say it's interesting with a genuine interest.....)
GOLF GTTi
06-04-2005, 22:05
Lookin good!
Is that S3 / TT pistons?
If it's not too rude to ask, how much did the Pauters set you back and where did you get them from (On my shopping list....)?
Did you have any trouble with customs etc?
Regards,
Des.
$800 including shipping from atp.
£13 in vat+£11 admin from UPS.
$100 invoice from atp helped.
With good exchange rate ended up at £435.
Oh forgot. Yes tt/s3 piston.
And mork, You lookin for a slap M8.
See you next sunday.
GOLF GTTi
06-04-2005, 23:01
$800 including shipping from atp.
£13 in vat+£11 admin from UPS.
$100 invoice from atp helped.
With good exchange rate ended up at £435.
Oh forgot. Yes tt/s3 piston.
Struth, that's a bargain considering Arrow rods are priced at £192 each plus VAT and Corrillo rods are $291.00 per rod. plus $100 UPS... :-o
well these finaly got here today.
I've mixed and matched the piston, gudgeon pin, rod sets to get them to within 0.8g. each combo weighs 1001g, so 0.08% weight variation. :cheers:
shouldnt that be a 0.79920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079 9200799200799200799200(etc.) percent variation?
Arrows are £160+vat each trade. Verry nice though.
Pauters are only 25 bucks more than eurosport rods, but they take much longer to get. Permanently sold out. Mine were ordered Jan.
GOLF GTTi
06-04-2005, 23:18
Arrows are £160+vat each trade. Verry nice though.
Pauters are only 25 bucks more than eurosport rods, but they take much longer to get. Permanently sold out. Mine were ordered Jan.
Which are stronger / Lighter?
CupraR-Rog
07-04-2005, 00:18
shouldnt that be a 0.79920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079920079 9200799200799200799200(etc.) percent variation?
I thought more like 0.07992...%
At the end of the day, even if you round the figures... 1g difference for parts weighing 1000g is going to be a difference of 0.1%... about as close as you're going to get to a perfectly matched set!
eurospec do a 600g rod, and a 475g rod, and the arrows are 475. The pauters are 586g.
The standard rods with shells are 604g, so the pauters will be very close once the shells are fitted.
On the basis thet the counter weight on the cranks are size to ballance the forces from the standard piston and rod, sticking to arround standard weight makes sense to me.
Plus they're probably stronger.
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 08:56
I'm looking at the JBS BT GT kit for my S3 and am looking at upgrading the internals first, basically for reliable power which is most important to me.
What do you guys think about JBS rods and JBS SS Valves - any experiences?
Also, if you were having this much heart surgery done is there anything else you would get done at the same time? Cambelt for example but of course need to keep within budget, say 2-2.5K for internals?
Car is a BAM 225 with circa 32k...
Dunc
BAM would need pistons also? (smaller wrist pins?)
JBS rods are Arrow so good quality
Valves are as used by SEAT Sport for racing and in a number of BT powerful road/track 1.8T's already. ( I researched what to get and supply them to the major UK VAG tuners.)
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 09:05
Anyone know how Bill got on today at jabba?.
Still running. :)
boost control issue was finally traced down to a faulty n75 :doh:
sorted now all smooth as it used to be and turned down.
24psi peak overboost now and 20psi sustained.
29psi went like stink and span up on the rollers in 6th! which was "interesting" to see. :eak: :-o
Jabba's new rollers can't half applied some loads!
Eagle F1's turned into super sticky drag tyres! I kidd you not. EVO stick type tacky.
Inlet remained cold to touch throught :D and some high boost was being run. 29psi at some points. Huge torque, but std engine so NO!
Miss the extra kick I have to say but it was a tad scarey! (engine bang worry)
What power were you getting on the new rollers?
What sort of boost are you gonna run on the new build?
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 13:59
What power were you getting on the new rollers?
What sort of boost are you gonna run on the new build?
Cheers
Ben
~New build might run higher boost.. still deciding. As is coped well with 29psi otherwise so who knows :D
Not 100% sure on the dyno runs from yesterday. they're still getting used to them, but at one point we were seeing some pretty respectable numbers from the silly high boost levels. >350lb for example
I'm not going to post the figures and I dont have a plot of the runs. (weird software things going on the power runs) - Superb mapping tool tho.. Dog Damn thing grabs hold of the car when the eddy brakes are appiled! :-o
blue/yellow flames on some runs... never seen it so snorty LOL - tamed down now tho comparitively. :( for now :)
all being well I will be @ JBS (again :whistle: ) sunday with ukmkivs so we will see. Boost is running at normal levels now, peaking at 24psi and dropping to 20psi at the top. I did really like the shove it gave at 25-29psi boost... shifted big time (>350lbft)
:cheers:
Will have to wait to see figs from jbs on sunday.
BAM would need pistons also? (smaller wrist pins?)
JBS rods are Arrow so good quality
Valves are as used by SEAT Sport for racing and in a number of BT powerful road/track 1.8T's already. ( I researched what to get and supply them to the major UK VAG tuners.)
thanks Bill.
Is there any information about different 1.8T pistons and wrist pins anywhere?
I thought I would be okay for pistons as I read that the S3 pistons were generally okay..
Dunc
GOLF GTTi
07-04-2005, 21:35
The earlier engines had the 20mm pins (non vvt) I have a nice set of APX (TT 225) pistons, brand new sitting doing nothing!!!
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 21:55
thanks Bill.
Is there any information about different 1.8T pistons and wrist pins anywhere?
I thought I would be okay for pistons as I read that the S3 pistons were generally okay..
Dunc
S3 are fine to a certain point.
Personally tho I am going 1900 and lower CR for more potential.
:)
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 21:56
The earlier engines had the 20mm pins (non vvt) I have a nice set of APX (TT 225) pistons, brand new sitting doing nothing!!!
These 20mm pins yea? thought 225's had 18's? (could be wrong tho)
GOLF GTTi
07-04-2005, 22:00
These 20mm pins yea? thought 225's had 18's? (could be wrong tho)
No, the early TT 225's has 20mm pinned rods, I'd guess that the 210 S3's would be the same.
sweet!I heard they were 19mm though.
I know how much Rods and Valves are, but whats an average price for new Pistons?
Wilko - what type of pistons do you have as I see you have S3/TT ones but specifically?
I dont think I would be selling myself short though if I only did rods and pistons would I chaps?
Dunc
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 22:23
valves
ibizacupra
07-04-2005, 22:24
I know how much Rods and Valves are, but whats an average price for new Pistons?
Wilko - what type of pistons do you have as I see you have S3/TT ones but specifically?
I dont think I would be selling myself short though if I only did rods and pistons would I chaps?
Dunc
JE's would cost you around £599
valves
oopps, meant to say valves - soz
Can anyone confirm that the AMK engine has 20mm pins?
GOLF GTTi
07-04-2005, 23:18
If it has vvt it will most likely have the smaller pins
The pistons I used were from a non vvt s3. I have a set of agu golf ones with 20mm pins brand new. Slightly higher compression ratio though.
Of any interest http://www.clubgti.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65333&PN=1
If it has vvt it will most likely have the smaller pins
It is vvt but is exactly the same engine as in the old S3 210hp. So hopping thinking 20mm pins.
The pistons I used were from a non vvt s3. I have a set of agu golf ones with 20mm pins brand new. Slightly higher compression ratio though.
Hey wilko you see the rods you ordered from atp was it these ones.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-031&Category_Code=VVWEN
Think i will order a set if the wait is 2 months.
GOLF GTTi
08-04-2005, 11:58
It is vvt but is exactly the same engine as in the old S3 210hp. So hopping thinking 20mm pins.
I'm 99.99% sure if it has vvt it will use the smaller pins. :whistle:
I'm 99.99% sure if it has vvt it will use the smaller pins. :whistle:
Oh well shit happens i guess! I see your from glasgow. What you done to your car? Should i beware of your golf? :)
GOLF GTTi
08-04-2005, 12:07
Changed from a Golf to a TT :rolleyes:
Building up a 1900 with the usual spec (bigport, Bills Valves soon :whistle: VF22 etc).
It's too slow as is so decided to make better use of the Haldex.... :idea:
Hey wilko you see the rods you ordered from atp was it these ones.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-031&Category_Code=VVWEN
Think i will order a set if the wait is 2 months.
They're the ones.
Apparently
www.alamoautosports.com
have them in stock, but no info on their website.
yumann.
The first s3's that came out in 1999 are engine code "apy" this is the non-vvt model with the stronger rods(jabba told me).I believe the equivilent tt engine code is apx.
After this came the "amk" then last model was "bam".
If i uprate the rods,pistons,and valves and change to a large port head what king of figures (bhp/torque) could i make on IHI vf34 .18. I want fast spool and a very strong mid-range i aint bothered about v-max. Anyone dare hazzard a guess.
They're the ones.
Apparently
www.alamoautosports.com
have them in stock, but no info on their website.
Cheers for that!
Changed from a Golf to a TT :rolleyes:
Building up a 1900 with the usual spec (bigport, Bills Valves soon :whistle: VF22 etc).
It's too slow as is so decided to make better use of the Haldex.... :idea:
Nice one ill keep an eye out for ya. If i get whipped by i TT ill know its you.
yumann.
The first s3's that came out in 1999 are engine code "apy" this is the non-vvt model with the stronger rods(jabba told me).I believe the equivilent tt engine code is apx.
After this came the "amk" then last model was "bam".
I believe that the AMK has stronger rods than the bam engine. Read somewhere 1 or 2 mm thicker rods.
I ve heard similar..... no one seems to beable to say diffenativly if thats the case. No seems to have had both rods to compare.
I suppose u could ask the dealer for the part number for the conrods for the bam and the amk and find out if they are the same
Or you could wait untill next weekend when I'll have 4 Agu 20mm rods, 4 s3 20mm rods, and 3 Aum 18mm rods in my garage.
Then I can photo/measure them all for you.
Or you could wait untill next weekend when I'll have 4 Agu 20mm rods, 4 s3 20mm rods, and 3 Aum 18mm rods in my garage.
Then I can photo/measure them all for you.
wont tell us if theres a difference between the amk and bam though
mike at jabba said the apy engines have the bigger rods ,not sure about the amk?
ibizacupra
09-04-2005, 10:50
Changed from a Golf to a TT :rolleyes:
Building up a 1900 with the usual spec (bigport, Bills Valves soon :whistle: VF22 etc).
It's too slow as is so decided to make better use of the Haldex.... :idea:
You got a VF22 yet?
(I've got a spare one)
GOLF GTTi
09-04-2005, 11:22
You got a VF22 yet?
(I've got a spare one)
Yeah, it arrived yesterday morning. :D
Bill how many compressor blades does your 22 have?
This one has 2x5??? is this correct? I understood that the 22 only had a single set of 5 but looking in, it has the initial 5 and then a second set of 5 just behind......... :blink:
GOLF GTTi
09-04-2005, 11:25
Nice one ill keep an eye out for ya. If i get whipped by i TT ill know its you.
It will be a while off yet, still collecting the parts at the moment.... :( :(
wont tell us if theres a difference between the amk and bam though
:roflmao: You could always ask the parts guys for the service sheets. I remember him showing me some print outs with specifications on it. Not of the rod tho.
It will be a while off yet, still collecting the parts at the moment.... :( :(
Keep us all informed. I am thinking of doing the same, works out a lot cheaper.
Who you going to get to carry out the work for you?
If i uprate the rods,pistons,and valves and change to a large port head what king of figures (bhp/torque) could i make on IHI vf34 .18. I want fast spool and a very strong mid-range i aint bothered about v-max. Anyone dare hazzard a guess.
Rods, pistons and values don't give power they just give strength as I'm sure you know. (Unless you change the bore etc obviously)
The only thing there that will give you more power is the largeport head... and as you still have the restriction of the .18 housing I doubt you'd make much more power.
If you are prepared to crank the boost up a bit (25psi?) then I recon you'd get 375bhp max out of those mods.
If you are really considering such mods then you really should consider the 20 housing. IMO the lag on a 20 housing is negligable, even when compared to my original K03!
Ben
You turbo boys may like to take a look at this months Practical Performance Car - big article on 1.8T tuning with lots of photo's of different rods etc etc
Cheers
Rob
You turbo boys may like to take a look at this months Practical Performance Car - big article on 1.8T tuning with lots of photo's of different rods etc etc
Cheers
Rob
Cheers Rob, I'll have a look.
I presume its a normal mag that I can get at Smiths? Not special order like Circuit Driver?
Ben
Cheers Ben i had a chat with Elton this morning. Its looks like i am going for pauter rods, Je pistons, large port head, 1 piece valves, .20 housing, and Mike and Adam may well be getting a call after the jbs rolling rd day for a large 17core fmic. Results i aint sure but i would hope for 380-400bhp and 350lbs/ft would be nice.
Sounds good.
If you are going for the rods and pistons then you might as well go for the 1.9 conversion too as that only costs about £120 extra!!!
What are you doing about the gearbox? Jabba themselves quote that its only good for 320lbft with a Quaife in it!
Cheers
Ben
Yep forgot to say the 1.9l setup. I aint bothered about gearboxs ben as i have heard there only £300 now. So i will buy one get a lsd fitted and clutch done and then fit. I'll just keep popping gearboxs and replacing until i get sick.
Cheers Rob, I'll have a look.
I presume its a normal mag that I can get at Smiths? Not special order like Circuit Driver?
Ben
Yep, got it at smiths myself - April 2005 Issue 12 (pp85-89), Orange caterham and a blue supercharged saxo on cover
Good articles on LSD's and how to make a flowbench also
Rob
Guys , what do you think of the mtm big turbo conversion?They run a standard s3/tt internals (sometimes even the bam) and claim 330/345bhp and 325lb/ft/334lb/ft, i believe they use a k26 turbo at peak 1.8 bar.Seems a little close to the edge??
Yep forgot to say the 1.9l setup. I aint bothered about gearboxs ben as i have heard there only £300 now. So i will buy one get a lsd fitted and clutch done and then fit. I'll just keep popping gearboxs and replacing until i get sick.
If you don't mind me asking, did they quote £2800 plus removal/refitting and remap?
The problem is, what if the gearbox goes EVERY time you use full power?! (Ok not likely). Or what if the gearbox seizes and destroys the engine.... which I think happened to Maurice Reeves car once?
Ben
That said though, I'm doing it too. :)
Ben
Cant remember cost Ben. Prob about 3-3.5k i reckon but could be wrong. Nothings concrete i change my mind like the weather. I might just watch what happens to everyone else before i take the plunge. Use jbs, wilko, and Bills results before i commit fully.
At a guess I'd say the costs look something like this:
Jabba 1.9 Conversion (http://www.thesleats.com/Pictures/Jabba19.png)
;)
Ben
Well I reckon its going to have cost me
For complete new AGU unit (large port head)
Porting and polishing head
s3 pistons
Evoshield
New big port intake mani
Pauter rods
Supertech valves
All new gaskets, head bolts etc
£2850 . Just the fitting to pay for now.
It's taken me 3 months to put it all together though.
GOLF GTTi
09-04-2005, 21:11
Who you going to get to carry out the work for you?
I'll build up the engine myself, fitting..... again, maybe me or I might book it in as I will need a new downpipe made... :(
GOLF GTTi
09-04-2005, 21:15
(large port head)
Porting and polishing head
.
Wilko, who did you use for your head and are you pleased with the work?
Wilko are these the exact rods you ordered, and which s3 pistons are you using with them and the sorce of the pistons are they new froma dealer?.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-031&Category_Code=BCS
GTTI, Alstage. Head looks great, and Dave has a good reputation. We'll find out how good it is in a few weeks after I've run it in and rr'd it.
Madmile. Yes exact same. I got the s3 pistons from a mate who's rebuilding his as a 2.0l.
Use your ibiza pistons as long as they're 20mm pins, or get some JE's from ATP along with the rods. (don't forget the rings) Or i've got a brand new set of AGU 20mm pistons which you could have for a song.
I'm sticking with 1.8l, as the bits if it goes bang are easier and much quicker to source, and on the basis that the power is only limited by the turbos flow capacity, a bigger turbo is always going to give more gains, unless you're trying to build as flexible motor as possible in which case 2.0l will help by giving you about 10% more off boost torque.
Ultimately though how flexible do you expect a 350hp 1.8l to be?
itll be at least a 12 month till I get round to the 1.9 conversion(if I do- intend to put an extention on the house I imagine thatll cost 20-30K :thumbd: wonder what I could do for that?)
what would it possible to safely rev the engine to then?(assuming you have a big enough turbo to hold boost that high)
I'll build up the engine myself, fitting..... again, maybe me or I might book it in as I will need a new downpipe made... :(
Nice one! The down pipe is easy enough any half decent fabircators can make you one for peanuts.
Think it would be slightly easier if you bought jabbas top section of the dp which bolts directly to the turbo then get the fabricators to take it from there.
Ok just about to order some rods. Final thing. which are best/strongest???
I take it Pauter are I beam design and eurospec/arrow are H beam design. Whats the difference between the 2 designs if any?
Bill the pistons you have are they the oversized 83mm ones? or the standard size?
GOLF GTTi
10-04-2005, 01:06
Bill the pistons you have are they the oversized 83mm ones? or the standard size?
Bills are 83mm JE's
I have std size APX 20mm pin (Brand new ;) ) going to make way for 83mm JE's :roflmao:
GOLF GTTi
10-04-2005, 01:08
Nice one! The down pipe is easy enough any half decent fabircators can make you one for peanuts.
Think it would be slightly easier if you bought jabbas top section of the dp which bolts directly to the turbo then get the fabricators to take it from there.
I understand that Jabba have fabricated a downpipe to suit AWD, I'll have to enquire if they would sell this on its own. :idea:
Bills are 83mm JE's
I have std size APX 20mm pin (Brand new ;) ) going to make way for 83mm JE's :roflmao:
I want to keep it at 1.8 to extreme for me getting a rebore.
The jbs conversion doesnt look to bad if the 4k includes the BT + rods + piston + valves. Which i think it does.
I understand that Jabba have fabricated a downpipe to suit AWD, I'll have to enquire if they would sell this on its own. :idea:
You only get the top section. Then you have to get the bottom part made up.
What i was planing to do was take the old dp off and get the fabricators to follow the line of the oe dp to make the new one.
I want to keep it at 1.8 to extreme for me getting a rebore.
The jbs conversion doesnt look to bad if the 4k includes the BT + rods + piston + valves. Which i think it does.
No it doesn't.
ibizacupra
10-04-2005, 07:20
Yeah, it arrived yesterday morning. :D
Bill how many compressor blades does your 22 have?
This one has 2x5??? is this correct? I understood that the 22 only had a single set of 5 but looking in, it has the initial 5 and then a second set of 5 just behind......... :blink:
yea mines the same
vf34 has 6+6
ibizacupra
10-04-2005, 07:22
Cant remember cost Ben. Prob about 3-3.5k i reckon but could be wrong. Nothings concrete i change my mind like the weather. I might just watch what happens to everyone else before i take the plunge. Use jbs, wilko, and Bills results before i commit fully.
:roflmao:
I have the apy engine which is the same as the apx other than it's in a s3,I notice that you say it has the 20mm pins and obviously i have s3 pistons,which is the actual weak point the thickness of the rod itself?
Bills are 83mm JE's
I have std size APX 20mm pin (Brand new ;) ) going to make way for 83mm JE's :roflmao:
Shock_Xe
10-04-2005, 08:03
The jbs conversion doesnt look to bad if the 4k includes the BT + rods + piston + valves. Which i think it does.
People are misslead somewhat in their thread as alot of people think the price they said (£4k) is for everything, Its 2.5k for the internals on top of the 4k
Yep forgot to say the 1.9l setup. I aint bothered about gearboxs ben as i have heard there only £300 now. So i will buy one get a lsd fitted and clutch done and then fit. I'll just keep popping gearboxs and replacing until i get sick.
:thumbup: :D liking that gary
vern
People are misslead somewhat in their thread as alot of people think the price they said (£4k) is for everything, Its 2.5k for the internals on top of the 4k
:confused: http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/bigturbo.htm
Quote:
BS-GT28RS
This package includes JBS H-Beam Con-Rods, JBS Forged Pistons and JBS Valves in addition to the fantastic JBS-GT28RS Turbo. 450bhp is no problem for this EXTREME Turbo Conversion! Click for more Info
I take it there octy conversion is this one.
No it doesn't.
Its quite pricey then cause the internals can be had for round bout £1500. If xe is right 2.5k for internals :-o
:roflmao: Just told the bird the other day 5k tops haha
I want to keep it at 1.8 to extreme for me getting a rebore.
The jbs conversion doesnt look to bad if the 4k includes the BT + rods + piston + valves. Which i think it does.
dont think 4K would even buy you the parts
I have the apy engine which is the same as the apx other than it's in a s3,I notice that you say it has the 20mm pins and obviously i have s3 pistons,which is the actual weak point the thickness of the rod itself?
If you have a look at wilkos picture of the rods you can see the differnce between the two. The pauter rod look very meaty.
dont think 4K would even buy you the parts
Would if you sourced the parts yourself.
Its quite pricey then cause the internals can be had for round bout £1500. If xe is right 2.5k for internals :-o
:roflmao: Just told the bird the other day 5k tops haha
try more like 8K(thats for everything i could think of using rough prices) so could be more I'd say alow another 1K easy in your budget and then theres insurance)
exhaust
900
induction kit
180
FMIC
900
BT
1000
injectors
340
MAF
115
Rods, pistons valve etc fitted
3K
oilpipes, water lines new tip, new downpipeetc
300
fitting and remap
850
manifold
500
try more like 8K(thats for everything i could think of using rough prices) so could be more I'd say alow another 1K easy in your budget and then theres insurance)
exhaust
900
induction kit
180
FMIC
900
BT
1000
injectors
340
MAF
115
Rods, pistons valve etc fitted
3K
oilpipes, water lines new tip, new downpipeetc
300
fitting and remap
850
manifold
500
Exhaust i have
Induction kit i have
ATP GT28RS BT at £1400
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-123&Category_Code=VVWTK
I have been in contact with atp about there kit and they have assured me that the mani will fit a RHD. But the dp wont.
Which includes oil line, water line, mani and dp.
So to mod the down pipe a fabricator want £180 which is fair enough.
Rods, pistons and valves can be had for about £1500
Injectores are £125
MAF £120
fitting and remap £1200
bout 5-6 all inclduing other expenses which i would be willing to pay for this spec.
would prob do that after. Wanted to see how it faired with std smic.
I'd be very careful with that atp manifold(or any manifold to be honest) there's not a great deal of room in the mk4 golf based engine bay.From what i can remember something fouls the outlet of the turbo?
Bill what was your figures like on jabba's new rollers compaired with JBS?
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 08:52
Would if you sourced the parts yourself.
I would'nt presume that all companies would entertain fitting customer supplied parts on a BT conversion with the holes that causes in warranties etc.
Worth checkout out first before buying parts that the BT tuner wont fit or warranty against..
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 08:54
ATP GT28RS BT at £1400
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-123&Category_Code=VVWTK
I have been in contact with atp about there kit and they have assured me that the mani will fit a RHD. But the dp wont.
No it wont m8
:no:
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 09:01
Bill what was your figures like on jabba's new rollers compaired with JBS?
I did'nt get a decent power plot @ Jabba as the tacho input went a bit weird at the higehr rpms so the plot looked like a boolean graph... all curvy and back on itself.
The numbers it did get seemed pretty close on torque which surprised me as I did'nt think it was making that much... (miss my 25psi boost... :( )
JBS yeasterday got me 358.8bhp & 343.7lbft torque from 20psi max boost.
(Jabba power figure was 343bhp (but not real) and 350lbft) - Pretty close I thought. :thumbup: Jabba
Does'nt have its 25psi "kick" it used to have but at least works and is smooth power delivery now its mapped to the mods. Want my boost back (but then again I don't ;) )
regards
bill
At least you can use it now with a functional gearbox.
I did'nt get a decent power plot @ Jabba as the tacho input went a bit weird at the higehr rpms so the plot looked like a boolean graph... all curvy and back on itself.
The numbers it did get seemed pretty close on torque which surprised me as I did'nt think it was making that much... (miss my 25psi boost... :( )
JBS yeasterday got me 358.8bhp & 343.7lbft torque from 20psi max boost.
(Jabba power figure was 343bhp (but not real) and 350lbft) - Pretty close I thought. :thumbup: Jabba
Does'nt have its 25psi "kick" it used to have but at least works and is smooth power delivery now its mapped to the mods. Want my boost back (but then again I don't ;) )
regards
bill
I take it this is with the aquamist?
ben,how much did jabba charge for a aquamist 1s and fitting?
Jabba charge £540 for aquamist supplied and fitted as i am awaiting a kit coming in for fitment.
Bill what where your wheel bhp figures from Jbs.
No it wont m8
:no:
Thats pretty gay. They told me it would fit :thumbd:
I thought you having it done with the turbo kit ben?
oh the manifold might fit on the engine and thats about it!!
Thats pretty gay. They told me it would fit :thumbd:
I called vag parts today for a price on early s3 pistons to try and get the 20mm pinned ones (I have a`bam 225) and they said they had one part number only for the pistons???
GOLF GTTi
11-04-2005, 20:57
I called vag parts today for a price on early s3 pistons to try and get the 20mm pinned ones (I have a`bam 225) and they said they had one part number only for the pistons???
That's not right.... Call the dealers.
They shouldnt be that expensive. I was reading pvw earlier and for a 1800cc gti golf £60 for the set. Ovisiously going to be a bit more expesnive.
They shouldnt be that expensive. I was reading pvw earlier and for a 1800cc gti golf £60 for the set. Ovisiously going to be a bit more expesnive.
S3 pistons vag parts quote about 490 + the dreaded...
Dunc
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 21:16
At least you can use it now with a functional gearbox.
its functional and its being replaced also.
back to std one with synchro's...
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 21:17
I take it this is with the aquamist?
Aquamist added the sum total of 3bhp and 1lbft which to me is just repeat margin of error on a dyno.. nett result of nada.
only effective on something which needs additional cooling and or is mapped to make use of it.. which mine is'nt.
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 21:19
Jabba charge £540 for aquamist supplied and fitted as i am awaiting a kit coming in for fitment.
Bill what where your wheel bhp figures from Jbs.
somewhere around 285approx from the graph.
previously did 315atw when running the higher boost so make of that what you will.
JBS dyno has received soem ongoing mods so not entirely sure if results compare before to now.. but if they do... it has run more from the higher boost and I know it went much stronger previously with 25psi behind it.
Maybe it did have 30bhp more from the extra 5psi boost?
Who knows.
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 21:21
Thats pretty gay. They told me it would fit :thumbd:
It fits the cylinder head and the turbo fit the manifold but wots the point if nothing else fits to make it work? fits part from downpipe is like, runs but has'nt got an engine in it.. :doh:
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 21:23
Madmile.. are you and jools coming to the SCN day at JBS later this month? Ben? you too?
My car will be running on the 24th on the scn/jbs rr day. CC is coming along as my passenger. I hope to have aquamist on by then if jabba can get a kit and fit it in time. Also 2 bottles of cvl turbo, and some ice for the chargecooler will be thrown into the mix. Previous figures were 324.9bhp (295@the wheels) and 295lbs/ft. So i hope to improve on these even if i have to cheat a little. :D
I am also running at Well Lane again on the 8th of May with the Evo boys.
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 21:47
My car will be running on the 24th on the scn/jbs rr day. CC is coming along as my passenger. I hope to have aquamist on by then if jabba can get a kit and fit it in time. Also 2 bottles of cvl turbo, and some ice for the chargecooler will be thrown into the mix. Previous figures were 324.9bhp (295@the wheels) and 295lbs/ft. So i hope to improve on these even if i have to cheat a little. :D
I am also running at Well Lane again on the 5th of May with the Evo boys.
:thumbup: cool..
show some evo's what ibiza power can do... in a small light package.
Theres a fq400 going and a few very high power stroked 600bhp evos going i hear. So i should be in the lower half of the power stakes. Should be fun to watch.
ibizacupra
11-04-2005, 22:03
deffo.. shame I live so far away that sounds interesting indeed.
Dont think i will come last though, as long as it stays in one piece. Drive to and from should be intresting in a safe way :redface: . Would be intresting to see a 600bhp Evo in attack mode.
S3 pistons vag parts quote about 490 + the dreaded...
Dunc
If there that pricey whats the point of getting s3 pistons you could go je for the same price.
It fits the cylinder head and the turbo fit the manifold but wots the point if nothing else fits to make it work? fits part from downpipe is like, runs but has'nt got an engine in it.. :doh:
Maybe the question i should of asked is is there enough room for the dp once mani and turbo is fitted for a rhd.
That's not right.... Call the dealers.
Got a friend to check ETKA and the S3 pistons all have the same part number for APY (210 pre facelift), AMK (210 facelift) and BAM (225 facelift) engines...
Dunc
GOLF GTTi
12-04-2005, 01:03
Got a friend to check ETKA and the S3 pistons all have the same part number for APY (210 pre facelift), AMK (210 facelift) and BAM (225 facelift) engines...
Dunc
Dunc, give Audi a call as I know that the BAM engine has the smaller pin size, early S3's I'd think would have the 20mm pin the same as the earlier TT's (APX Code).
ibizacupra
12-04-2005, 08:11
Dont think i will come last though, as long as it stays in one piece. Drive to and from should be intresting in a safe way :redface: . Would be intresting to see a 600bhp Evo in attack mode.
Seen a few EVo's in attack mode on track and they were'nt overly difficult to pass :)
ibizacupra
12-04-2005, 08:13
Maybe the question i should of asked is is there enough room for the dp once mani and turbo is fitted for a rhd.
If you dont mind scorched servo and a contorted smaller downpipe because its too close to other parts.
Dunc, give Audi a call as I know that the BAM engine has the smaller pin size, early S3's I'd think would have the 20mm pin the same as the earlier TT's (APX Code).
Hi mate, yes you are right - I just spoke with Jabba and Elton confirmed that they are different - he said 19mm on newer cars and 20mm on APY. BAM 225 has lighter pistons also.
So it would appear JE pistons are the order of the day as I'm not forking out £500 for something I basically already have.
Just wish they had the IHI kit for 4wd ready
Dunc
Seen a few EVo's in attack mode on track and they were'nt overly difficult to pass :)
:rolleyes: :thumbup:
GOLF GTTi
12-04-2005, 12:38
I'm not forking out £500 for something I basically already have.
It's more than that!!! It works out at £639.40 for a set of APX pistons and rings. :-o
I know of a nice shiney new set going for a song........ :whistle:
I thought you having it done with the turbo kit ben?
Having what done? Aquamist? I did.
I'm currently running the 1S system, but I'd personally strongly advise getting one of the mappable systems. The 1S systems are noway near as good apparently, and I wanted a 2S/2D system but Jabba wouldn't do it because they were too busy. :(
I still plan to upgrade it though.
Ben
Madmile.. are you and jools coming to the SCN day at JBS later this month? Ben? you too?
When is it? Sorry, I haven't had time to go on here much recently and so I'm a bit out of touch.
Cheers
Ben
Ben, it's on Sunday (this sunday)
You need some sort of driver with a 2c/2d.When i had my mr2 turbo everyone was using the additional injector driver on the unichip piggyback to "map" with.What do jabba use?A good friend of mine made his own mappable system using outputs from his map sensor and rpm signal(was on a mr2).To contridict this another person a know who races f3000 and does alot of work with supras believes the 1s is all you would need with a road car.
The 2D system looks good. it uses the injector duty cycle, and maintains a water to fuel ratio above a certain trigger boost level. Whilst this isnt perfect its much closer to perfect that a 1S system.
The problem with a 1S system is that it injects at the same rate regardless of the revs, so at low revs (Once triggered obviously) its injecting too much water, and at high revs its injecting too little water. Worst of both worlds.
Its interesting to note that I spoke to Elton about a year before I finally got IHI'd and he said that he'd point blank refuse to fit a 1S system (For the reasons mentioned above). He said only a mappable system is worth having.... but when it actually came to getting my IHI done and I asked for the mappable Aquamist system they said that i could have the 1S system or nothing (Due to lack of time.)! :confused:
Maybe in that year they had more experience of the 1S system and found it to be better than expected?
Ben
ibizacupra
19-04-2005, 11:42
The 2D system looks good. it uses the injector duty cycle, and maintains a water to fuel ratio above a certain trigger boost level. Whilst this isnt perfect its much closer to perfect that a 1S system.
The problem with a 1S system is that it injects at the same rate regardless of the revs, so at low revs (Once triggered obviously) its injecting too much water, and at high revs its injecting too little water. Worst of both worlds.
Its interesting to note that I spoke to Elton about a year before I finally got IHI'd and he said that he'd point blank refuse to fit a 1S system (For the reasons mentioned above). He said only a mappable system is worth having.... but when it actually came to getting my IHI done and I asked for the mappable Aquamist system they said that i could have the 1S system or nothing (Due to lack of time.)! :confused:
Maybe in that year they had more experience of the 1S system and found it to be better than expected?
Ben
I am a firm believer in the KISS principle. :D
System 1S worked adequately for me up to the point of an effecient FMIC and EVOshield fitment. Now its gains are marginal if any in this weather. Summer may well benefit.. 1bar activation on 0.5mm nozzle on mine.
I am a firm believer in the KISS principle. :D
System 1S worked adequately for me up to the point of an effecient FMIC and EVOshield fitment. Now its gains are marginal if any in this weather. Summer may well benefit.. 1bar activation on 0.5mm nozzle on mine.
The trouble is, you are thinking of WI as a cooling system. Thats not the main function of WI, thats a sort of free secondary function. FMICs and WI do completely different jobs.
Also, your car needs to be mapped for it to take advantage of it. Without being mapped for it all you will see is its secondary cooling function, and then if you have a good cooling system anyway (FMIC) then you wont see any gains.
Ben
Having discussed this quite a few years ago, basically ideally you want to run the pump duty cycle is accordance with your boost curve and possible detonation.As most turbos deliver there grunt in the midrange the pump would deliver full pressure at this point and reduce as the boost dropped and rpm rose.This would allow more timing and a healther mid-range although probably very little power increase at the top end.The 2c is used with aftermarket chips,ie motec,unichip etc which can map the duty cycle of the pump with rpm and boost.
Ben,what you mean by your wi has been mapped is that your ecu remap has altered to account for the wi and more timing dialed in.
I think a 1s would do the job in most cases.
ibizacupra
19-04-2005, 18:32
The trouble is, you are thinking of WI as a cooling system. Thats not the main function of WI, thats a sort of free secondary function. FMICs and WI do completely different jobs.
Also, your car needs to be mapped for it to take advantage of it. Without being mapped for it all you will see is its secondary cooling function, and then if you have a good cooling system anyway (FMIC) then you wont see any gains.
Ben
Hmmmm.
maybe so...
1S system would probs give some gains if used with REVO map and a SPS3 - crank the timing up a couple of notches - basically like running high octane fuel...
Dunc
Having discussed this quite a few years ago, basically ideally you want to run the pump duty cycle is accordance with your boost curve and possible detonation.As most turbos deliver there grunt in the midrange the pump would deliver full pressure at this point and reduce as the boost dropped and rpm rose.This would allow more timing and a healther mid-range although probably very little power increase at the top end.The 2c is used with aftermarket chips,ie motec,unichip etc which can map the duty cycle of the pump with rpm and boost.
Ben,what you mean by your wi has been mapped is that your ecu remap has altered to account for the wi and more timing dialed in.
I think a 1s would do the job in most cases.
The ECU was custom mapped after having the aquamist installed, so hopefully they dialled more timing in as I requested.
Thanks
Ben
Ben, if you have Vag-Com it'd be interesting to see the correction that you pull using aqua mist.
also without aquamist too (incase it ran out)
Hmmmm.
maybe so...
Re-read my post. Hope I didn't sound a bit off.... I know you know your stuff more than me.
However, one common misconception about WI is that it controls detonation by reducing intake temperatures. This is simply wrong. WI does most of its work once in cylinder, and the cooling effect in the intake is just a nice side-effect.
Ben
I have VagCom but currently no laptop! :(
I'm got a nice shiney new PDA with Bluetooth and bought a Bluetooth OBD2 adaptor, so I'll see what the software for that can tell me.
As for running without the Aquamist... I don't plan to. It was mapped for Aquamist to always be available, and IMO running it without WI would be a very bad idea.
I doubt I'll run out anyway. A single fill up lasts well over a month, maybe even 2 (And I've got 10 gallons of methonal at home! :)).
My biggest concern is if theres a blockage. The 2x systems will warn you if theres a blockage but the 1S system wont. Thats another reason why I really really wanted the 2S or 2D system.
I'll let you know any results.
Ben
john banks
20-04-2005, 09:54
Some do use water for cooling, some use it to change in cylinder combustion. To gain benefits from the latter you really need to advance the timing and lean the fuelling off, so that you are using water rather than fuel dumping to ward off detonation. However, then you have a tune that is pretty dangerous if the water stops. Level senders won't necessarily save your engine if you have a blocked jet. Hence some use DDS2. Some try to rely on an ECU that is very good at knock control and EGT monitoring to sort it.
I found with a FMIC (non-VAG engine though) that there was no real gain in power even by mapping for the water. I then used methanol or ethanol, with mixtures with water, or alone. The best results I found were 100% methanol. In the end I just threw the methanol in the fuel tank in a 10% mix with 90% Optimax. Quite cheap from Jennychem, about £1.10 per litre, so using it instead of 5 litres of fuel costs about £1 per fill up, trouble is you have to carry around a container of say 5 litres and fling it in at each fill up. I found similar results with NF octane booster which sits in a 200-300ml container and does up to 5 tanks. Now I just use octane booster on track as a safety net. But I did find 10% power gains from methanol or octane booster (if I used the whole bottle of the latter, £10-12/tank though).
If you had big enough jets and a separate tank for the methanol it could work out quite well I suppose, although not all pumps tolerate 100% methanol. Despite the methanol having a lower specific heat capacity than water, it is of >100 octane as well. It also leans out the mixture when you run it as the stoich point is more like 6:1 rather than 14.7:1. Most lambda setups will report lambda for the composite fuel even if the display shows AFR, so the ECU will adapt on cruise to 10% methanol on most cars. I used to run 0.78 lambda or richer for Optimax, and up to 0.82 lambda for methanol 10%/Optimax 90% on full power. Now I run about 0.75 lambda on plain Optimax for safety, I can't afford margin for error or high cylinder pressures, a short run of detonation could pop my headgaskets or crack a piston.
Re 2d vs 1s, the injector duty cycle will vary far closer with power rather than torque, but most water injection maps feature water rates closer in proportion to torque. So locking it to IDC will ramp up the water quantity (with a relatively flat water:fuel ratio) where you really want to reduce it. 1s would stay flat in actual amount of water, but the water:fuel ratio will reduce as revs increase. I always thought that manifold pressure converted to a PWM signal would be the best driver, with a lower trigger point. I found the 1s worked OK in practice though, I didn't feel a step change with a 0.6 to 1.0 bar typical turn on point, usually if you on boost you are going to be almost on WOT throttle anyway unless you are a throttle modulating god ;)
Bluetooth ODBII? Where'd you get that from?
Some do use water for cooling, some use it to change in cylinder combustion. To gain benefits from the latter you really need to advance the timing and lean the fuelling off, so that you are using water rather than fuel dumping to ward off detonation. However, then you have a tune that is pretty dangerous if the water stops. Level senders won't necessarily save your engine if you have a blocked jet. Hence some use DDS2. Some try to rely on an ECU that is very good at knock control and EGT monitoring to sort it.
I found with a FMIC (non-VAG engine though) that there was no real gain in power even by mapping for the water. I then used methanol or ethanol, with mixtures with water, or alone. The best results I found were 100% methanol. In the end I just threw the methanol in the fuel tank in a 10% mix with 90% Optimax. Quite cheap from Jennychem, about £1.10 per litre, so using it instead of 5 litres of fuel costs about £1 per fill up, trouble is you have to carry around a container of say 5 litres and fling it in at each fill up. I found similar results with NF octane booster which sits in a 200-300ml container and does up to 5 tanks. Now I just use octane booster on track as a safety net. But I did find 10% power gains from methanol or octane booster (if I used the whole bottle of the latter, £10-12/tank though).
If you had big enough jets and a separate tank for the methanol it could work out quite well I suppose, although not all pumps tolerate 100% methanol. Despite the methanol having a lower specific heat capacity than water, it is of >100 octane as well. It also leans out the mixture when you run it as the stoich point is more like 6:1 rather than 14.7:1. Most lambda setups will report lambda for the composite fuel even if the display shows AFR, so the ECU will adapt on cruise to 10% methanol on most cars. I used to run 0.78 lambda or richer for Optimax, and up to 0.82 lambda for methanol 10%/Optimax 90% on full power. Now I run about 0.75 lambda on plain Optimax for safety, I can't afford margin for error or high cylinder pressures, a short run of detonation could pop my headgaskets or crack a piston.
Re 2d vs 1s, the injector duty cycle will vary far closer with power rather than torque, but most water injection maps feature water rates closer in proportion to torque. So locking it to IDC will ramp up the water quantity (with a relatively flat water:fuel ratio) where you really want to reduce it. 1s would stay flat in actual amount of water, but the water:fuel ratio will reduce as revs increase. I always thought that manifold pressure converted to a PWM signal would be the best driver, with a lower trigger point. I found the 1s worked OK in practice though, I didn't feel a step change with a 0.6 to 1.0 bar typical turn on point, usually if you on boost you are going to be almost on WOT throttle anyway unless you are a throttle modulating god ;)
Hmmm, some of the stuff you said there conflicts with other stuff I've read elsewhere and even with Aquamist themselves. Firstly they say to never put Methonal into your fuel as it wont mix more than about 6%, whereas it will mix in water. They warn that putting it in fuel will result in a non linear speration (eg. when the tank is near full you might be running 99% petrol, 1% methonal but when you are down to a 1/4 tank you might be running 70% petrol 30% methanol.).
They also advise that using a mix of more than 50% methonal to 50% water will result in increased tempatures and tendancy for detonation.
Any they also say to use Methanol but to NEVER use Ethanol (Or lots of other alcohols).
You certainly seem to know what you are talking about but I'm just wondering why your experience is the opposite to the 'official' recommendations.
Yes I want a 2x system to detect a blocked jet.
Surely WI will always allow you to run more advance than without it, so should always give gains?
Ben
Bluetooth ODBII? Where'd you get that from?
Here:
Vital Engineering (http://www.vitalengineering.co.uk/)
Note that it uses the ELM chip, so will only work with ELM chip based software, such as ScanTools etc. IT WONT WORK WITH VAGCOM!!!
Gonna go and have my first play with it now.
Cheers
Ben
john banks
20-04-2005, 11:23
I prefer to test things myself rather than rely on advice, although I usually start with the available information. However, it often gets thrown out the window as it is difficult to be categorical about all situations....
I used it through a winter and a summer and had continuous detonation and wideband AFR monitoring. No issues of dodgy mixtures at all which would occur if the injected mixture was not homogenous, I tried up to 20% mixture in the fuel tank in the depths of winter when you expect more separation and it was fine. It really depends on the water content of the petrol, higher water content and it will separate more easily, it is not a fixed 6%. I measured EGT with various mixtures and found no issues - it was actually cooler running methanol mixture than just optimax AND it gained power, which the water alone didn't. The engine also ran a lot smoother and took incredible timing. Economy was excellent too.
Their pumps don't like ethanol, but it doesn't mean your engine won't. Mine did, but I found methanol easier to get hold of.
"Surely WI will always allow you to run more advance than without it, so should always give gains?"
Advance doesn't always give you more power. I'm not saying I was at MBT timing, but if your flame front progression is slower you might need more timing just to restore the peak pressure point you lost. By simply turning the water on if your intercooling is good, you will probably lose 10 BHP or so, this has been tried many times. Then you can get some of it back by advancing the ignition and leaning out. However, I couldn't convincingly get more back than I had lost despite remapping for it. I may not have been using large enough jets. I really wanted it to work though, but it was a waste of time on my setup, and flinging methanol in the tank at 10% mixture gave instant smiles... 434 BHP and 395 lbft from a 20G, with no lag from 2500 to 7500 RPM at 3000 RPM it was already making about 225 BHP, and 300 BHP at 4000 RPM :D By injecting methanol I could only get 403 BHP and 395 lbft using the largest of the 3 jets supplied, can't remember the size. I sold the water injection kit that week.
Edit to say re homogenous mixtures, the car was never left unused for more than a weekend, additionally the Subaru fuel system is recirculating (don't know about VAG) so there is a constant churn around the tank. Additionally, the car makes enough g that even on half a tank under hard driving on track you can sometimes get fuel surge where the fuel is all in the wrong corner of the tank. Perhaps all these things conspired to keeping the mixture well churned up. The theoretical worry didn't turn into a problem, and I was looking out for it.
However, since "discovering" the spool up : power benefits of Garrett GT turbos, I now prefer to use a turbo sized for the job, so I don't need to prop up the power and torque with octane which is compensating for excessive exhaust back pressure. Previously I stuck to too small turbos to try and keep the torque, but a free breathing setup with its proper housings rather than some of the hybrids out there I have found to be far superior and power and spool up just come easily. Even in lower gears, the boost controller doesn't need extra start duty to give a really hard kick to full boost quite low down. Lag between gearchanges is less than a smaller turbo was in suboptimal housings. Anyway, I digress slightly. That water injection kit I sold I had bought off someone else who used an Ahmed Bayoo (of Cossie tuning fame) type temperature controller, to provide additional intercooling as he had a top mount intercooler and liked the track. Obviously he didn't find it worked for him, and me buying it for the in cylinder event modification didn't work for me. I'm sure water does work for some though.
jonathanp
21-04-2005, 20:32
Does anyone have an idea what torque a standard BAM engine can handle and would it withstand this throughout the rev range?
weaker rods than alot of the guys ibizas and my apy engine s3 so i wouldn't want to go over 300lb/t but mtm do.
Jabba told me 340-350 when I asked them some time ago, so MTM's conversion seems safe to me. And did for the 45K miles I drove it too ;-)
jonathanp
21-04-2005, 22:27
ok so in theory the engine would be ok running 300lb/ft up to 7500rpm?
john banks
21-04-2005, 23:31
I am a believer that it is excessive revs that often kill rods before torque does, in tension rather than compression. Tension forces vary with the square of revs. However, compression forces due to increased torque from turbocharging tend to be spread over a longer crank angle rather than of massively higher peaks. You're probably more likely to damage rods by over-revving/aggressive downshifting, or by trying to run torque on inadequate octane (ie pump fuel with little improvements with additives rather than running proper race fuel) which won't support your boost levels required to run the torque.
I don't know specifics on VAG engines, above is based on other engines. Some general principles apply though.
The stroke on my engine is 79mm, with 99.5mm pistons, and I aim to change at 7000-7200 with a 7500 rev limiter. 7200 is the factory limiter, the 75mm stroke versions go up to 8200 RPM from the factory. But they are all still oversquare and like to rev, 1.8T is quite different in geometry. There often seems no need for silly rev limits when the power is easily made lower down, you often need to do a lot of expensive head/cam work to make a turbo motor peak really high with a larger turbo, and your bottom end needs work then as well. RB26DETT excel though in this department, quite an oversquare design as well, when built up they seem to be able to get figures like 600 BHP at 1.2 bar by revving to 9-10000 RPM, quite good by car engine standards.
ibizacupra
22-04-2005, 07:31
the 20v loves to rev tho. especially once you allow it to breathe.
easily runs to 8000 if you let it, with pull all the way. (more so with largeport cylinder head)
mines 7800rpm limiter and it gets used frequently for the last 35K miles on track.
john banks
22-04-2005, 09:01
Is there much need to worry about torque limits then if it takes such revs for a long time? Presumably someone has or could calculate the forces involved in tension and compression for modified engines?
jonathanp
22-04-2005, 09:08
reason I asked is because I was wondering if it would be possible to have a setup that would provide a fairly flat torque curve say 290-300lb/ft from 3500rpm to 7500rpm.
If this was possible you would have around 400-430bhp on standard internals
As john says, it is generally not compression (torque) that breaks rods, but the bending moment at MDC. The bending moment is a function of the pressure being applied to the top of the rod in compression, and the accelerative forces of the big end, side to side, which increases with revs.
I also think that fatigue is a factor. Run them over The materials fatigue limit often enough, and they'll eventually go.
The bent rods I've seen seem to be from relatively low mileage engines, and I think they bend under high compressive loads, from either too much torque, or detonation. The snapped ones I think are due to fatigue.
When mine went, I had been progressively running more timing, producing a shorter pressure wave, and thus putting more compressive loads on the rods. But when it let go, the turbo wasn't even fully spooled at 3.5krpm, and I was in second gear, so loads would have been lower than in the higher gear. This suggests that fatigue is a factor.
Don't h-beam rods resist twisting forces better than I-beam rods?
Ben
oh please, not that thread again :hide:
I thought thats what this thread was about.... talking about engine internals.
Ben
ok a couple of posts above have confused me now.
bill are they the same rods in the bam engine as in your beeza??
I thought thats what this thread was about.... talking about engine internals.
Ben
its a mickey take mate, there was a long and rather technical thread between wilko and bill about the relative difference betwee I section and H section
Technical Gooood. Whooshy Dump Valve Baaaad.
ok a couple of posts above have confused me now.
bill are they the same rods in the bam engine as in your beeza??
no, the bam engines have the weaker rods than biils beezer and the early s3/tt engines apy/apx.
I'm sure jabba quoted 320lb/t as a top line figure in regards to torque.
I am at Jabba on Tuesday for aquamist and the boost is being upped to 24psi dropping down to 20psi. It may well be a little quicker i hope.
How much extra torque do you expect madmile?
I think Elton said roughly 330-340lbs ft. Bhp goes up a little but its mainly torque. He said its certainly a fair bit quicker in the mid-range etc.
Edited to say, Boost is currently 19.7psi spike 18psi sustained.
jonathanp
22-04-2005, 18:31
no, the bam engines have the weaker rods than biils beezer and the early s3/tt engines apy/apx.
I'm sure jabba quoted 320lb/t as a top line figure in regards to torque.
so do you think its possible to run 300lb/ft on a BAM engine without failure or would you have to decrease the torque as the revs rise?
Not sure what is possible with the bam engine johnathan but mtm get 340bhp and 330lb/t with there bt kit so they must be quite strong just not quite as strong as the earlier non vvt 1.8t engines.
madmile,did jabba seem happy to run this much boost,fairly safe?
Yep. Said it would be ok, but i think its as far as they will go on stnd internals theres prob a little bit spare but thats probably your safety margin.
Are you using a 1s madmile?
Yep a 1s aquamist kit. I have some rods on order though.
jonathanp
22-04-2005, 19:45
hrm so if companies are willing to go up to 330lb/ft I wonder if its possible to have a BT conversion that will be able to produce a flat torque curve of around 300lb/ft up to 7000rpm
if it was possible you should a good power output without a torque spike that could cause engine failure on standard internals:)
im imposing a limit of 350 bhp and 320lbsft of torque on my BT map i think- so torque will have to drop after around 5700rpm
jonathanp
22-04-2005, 20:21
so you're looking at around 260ish lb/ft at max power
I'm not fussed about a big torque spike I'd rather have a smooth map that can be sustained to high revs
im imposing a limit of 350 bhp and 320lbsft of torque on my BT map i think- so torque will have to drop after around 5700rpm
Unless you run increasing boost with increasing rpm on a small port, you're looking at torque starting to drop at 4500rpm. A large port will be flatter, but it'll still drop between 4500 and 7500, just not by as much.
To make a real 350hp (310+whp), you're going to be running 23psi ish at 6500rpm. Lots of boost!
If you want to fit a gt30r, and have boost by 4500, you will get a flatter torque curve, but you're still going to loose volumetric efficiencey from high 4's onwards.
Good thread on voretex http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1950669
This guys making silly power, but it's at 32psi with a big port head and cams. With the gt30r, he's managed to get peak VE in the 5100 to 6100 rpm range. Thats with no exhaust, so it's going to come down the rev range. Peak VE at constant boost is peak torque, give or take.
Power on small ports is flat from 6k to the limiter, and nearly flat from 5k onwards. Most drop 50-60lbft between torque peak and the limiter.
(bills and JBS octy are not small port)
Jabba told me 340-350 when I asked them some time ago, so MTM's conversion seems safe to me. And did for the 45K miles I drove it too ;-)
Hey up clive what you doing in the cheap "seats"? :thumbup: welcome matey
vern
ibizacupra
23-04-2005, 16:16
ok a couple of posts above have confused me now.
bill are they the same rods in the bam engine as in your beeza??
dont know not taken BAM engine to bits.
ibizacupra
23-04-2005, 16:17
Technical Gooood. Whooshy Dump Valve Baaaad.
:roflmao: :thumbup:
ibizacupra
23-04-2005, 16:20
im imposing a limit of 350 bhp and 320lbsft of torque on my BT map i think- so torque will have to drop after around 5700rpm
if its going to go it will be lower than those rpms when it lets fly i think.
consider these are just numbers, and not relating to actual delivery of these numbers, which will have a signifiacnt effect how loads.
ibizacupra
23-04-2005, 16:23
(bills and JBS octy are not small port)
my current ported smallport inlets.
slightly more flow but not in largeport league at all.
]http://badger-5.com/bin/ported-smallport-ibiza2.jpg (http://badger-5.com/bin/ported-smallport-ibiza2.jpg)
GOLF GTTi
23-04-2005, 20:39
Who ported the head for you Bill?
same bloke who did this
http://www.jhwilkinson.co.uk/images/intake.jpg
http://www.jhwilkinson.co.uk/images/exhaust.jpg
Dave. Allstage
GOLF GTTi
23-04-2005, 22:28
Looks like a really good job!
Do you have any contact details?
Is it:
Allstage MapChapel La, Croughton Brackley
Northamptonshire, NN13 5LR 01869 811132
How much do they charge? (if it's not too rude to ask!!)
Thanks!
Does porting the head make a noticeable difference to power or torque?
ibizacupra
24-04-2005, 07:32
ported smallport made for top end gains at the expence of low end spool up on mine.
is the JBS octavia smallport, large port or ported smallport??
ibizacupra
25-04-2005, 09:05
i believe smallport, but ported - ask JAmes
Anyone considered porting their largeport to make it even larger?
Bit more top end power (And losing torque lower down)?
Or is the head design such that you can't get any bigger, or it might actually make airflow worse in some way?
Is porting expensive?
Ben
Anyone considered porting their largeport to make it even larger?
Bit more top end power (And losing torque lower down)?
Or is the head design such that you can't get any bigger, or it might actually make airflow worse in some way?
Is porting expensive?
Ben
Yes, and yes.
Mines ported out to match the inlet and exhaust manifold gaskets. You can't go any bigger.
Judging from a little play I had last night, with 250 miles on the engine, it's well worth it.
I ran it to 6k (only once), running off the wastegate actuator, so about 0.7 bar. Wastegate wide open at 6k revs the turbo won't make less than 1 bar. This gave 210g/s
Not doing it again for a few more hundred miles, but on the small port, i was seeing 220g/s at 6K but running 1.5 bar boost, and wastegate nearly 80% shut.
Got to get some miles on this engine fast.
Is there a big difference between a standard largeport and a ported largeport?
Is porting expensive?
Ben
No, a couple of mm on the exhaust side, and a couple of mm on the inlat side.
Yes! But if you're rebuilding a head for trick valves etc, you might as well.
ok lets just say I was going to uprate the internals at the same time as going big turbo :rolleyes: . should I get the large port? will I see that much of a difference- power wise and lag wise?
also if all the internals were uprated(rods pistons valves) what do you reckon that a safe limit for the revs would be(providing the turbo will good enough for them)
ibizacupra
25-04-2005, 18:50
ok lets just say I was going to uprate the internals at the same time as going big turbo :rolleyes: . should I get the large port? will I see that much of a difference- power wise and lag wise?
also if all the internals were uprated(rods pistons valves) what do you reckon that a safe limit for the revs would be(providing the turbo will good enough for them)
all down to spec of turbo and where it will make power..
so whats the spec?
largeport also needs largeport inlet manifold which on a LCR is'nt available, so would be cut n shut or fabrication job. other subtle changes also req'd to go largeport.
other subtle changes also req'd to go largeport.
Understatment. :whistle:
think ill try the small port for now then or ported small port
i guess it depends what turbo your using and your bhp goals.If it's a ihi then i'm sure 350bhp is possible on a smallport.
I might have a small prt for sale to reduce downtime. You might need some new valves though
GOLF GTTi
28-04-2005, 12:27
Does anyone have a picture of a VF22 / 34 on a Jabba manifold?
I remember hearing that you have to "modify" the housing position for it to fit (Turn it 180 degrees). I guess it is just the exhaust housing?
Manifold should be here by Wednesday.......
Thanks in advance!
ibizacupra
28-04-2005, 13:25
inlet swings 180 degrees
on Jabbas website I believe
Understatment. :whistle:
How was it converting the largeport to vvt?
i guess it depends what turbo your using and your bhp goals.If it's a ihi then i'm sure 350bhp is possible on a smallport.
If you believe the rolling roads (3 so far) I've got 355-361bhp with a smallport head (20 housing on my VF34 though).
Ben
all down to spec of turbo and where it will make power..
so whats the spec?
largeport also needs largeport inlet manifold which on a LCR is'nt available, so would be cut n shut or fabrication job. other subtle changes also req'd to go largeport.
Bill, what are you doing for your inlet manifold? Obviously I've got the largeport head I bought through you but I don't have a largeport inlet manifold.
Ben
How was it converting the largeport to vvt?
Just put the vvt cams and tensioner in. No issues as yet. No secondary air injection though. Again no issues as yet.
Just put the vvt cams and tensioner in. No issues as yet. No secondary air injection though. Again no issues as yet.
Sounds quite promising!
Bill, what are you doing for your inlet manifold? Obviously I've got the largeport head I bought through you but I don't have a largeport inlet manifold.
Ben
There's two things you can do as Bill says cut and shunt a large port head mani so the throttle is on the right.
Or
Route the pipework to suite the large port mani.
Ive always been curious how smooth and accurate a modded mani would be. I know dahlback would do you a right hand largeport mini but $$$
There's two things you can do as Bill says cut and shunt a large port head mani so the throttle is on the right.
Or
Route the pipework to suite the large port mani.
Ive always been curious how smooth and accurate a modded mani would be. I know dahlback would do you a right hand largeport mini but $$$
Yeah I was just wondering what Bill is doing.
Also, I'm sure Bill tried the Dahlback inlet manifold and it doesn't fit (Bonnet wouldn't shut)!
Cheers
Ben
ibizacupra
28-04-2005, 17:42
I know dahlback would do you a right hand largeport mini but $$$
They say that, but having seen it & had one, it wont do largeport.. not enough meat in their casting. They also say their manifold fits ibiza but it did'nt.
ibizacupra
28-04-2005, 17:43
Bill, what are you doing for your inlet manifold? Obviously I've got the largeport head I bought through you but I don't have a largeport inlet manifold.
Ben
inlet manifold is a Jabba creation in conjunction with Wayne. Uses a few different man designs in the one package.
will have to let you know as it will likely be a jabba product offering if it works on mine. :thumbup:
They say that, but having seen it & had one, it wont do largeport.. not enough meat in their casting. They also say their manifold fits ibiza but it did'nt.
Thats a bumber! Why dont they ever tell it to you staight!
Did you ever get that refund on the mani?
There is a company that makes polished ss manis for caterams the ones that uses the habusa turbo engine.
Looks very bling bling cant remember the name tho.
ibizacupra
28-04-2005, 20:50
Thats a bumber! Why dont they ever tell it to you staight!
Did you ever get that refund on the mani?
There is a company that makes polished ss manis for caterams the ones that uses the habusa turbo engine.
Looks very bling bling cant remember the name tho.
I did return it for refund yes..
Dahlback were'nt all I'd hoped they would have been.
Clearly never actually tried it which is worrying as they also list conversion to ibiza's and possibly aint ever done them either.
live and learn.
learnt about some good aspects of the design which will be enhanced and grafted onto the Badger mobile one.