View Full Version : Problems with Chipped leons???
Seat_Devil
15-08-2001, 08:10
Hi all.
Im thinking about chipping my Leon, if i can get it back from the garage. And i have been discussing with other owners of Leons in Sweden that have chipped their cars.
There seesm to be problems with the chips that the Swedish tuners do develop. There are a number of problems:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Drops in turboboost between 3500-4500 RPMs
<LI>To high Turboboost, the wastegate lets out the preasure
<LI>Conflicts with ESP/TCS, they can't get the new software to play nice with ESP/TCS
</UL>
The tuners seems to asume it's an A3T, a theory by mee.
I have also looked at some German made chips. I have looked at
Dahlback Racing (http://www.audituning.com) in sweden that is a reseller of MTM. And on there page they state that with just a chip the engine will deliver 202BHP. On MTM (http://www.mtm-online.de)'s homepage you can get 195Bhp. Which is it?
So im very confused right now. I dont know if im going to chip the car or not.
/Seat_Devil
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Hi
I read your message on Smartgroups, i suggested you post here :)
My own Leon Cupra has just undergone an Oettinger chip conversion, this develops 195bhp but ups the torque to 285nm.
I think a few different chips give different values depending on what they are changing, some develop more bhp, but possibly could lack the torque.
Torque in my opinion is a lot more important than the bhp figures, you could have 300bhp plus but without the torque pulling power low down, there is no point.
So my advice would be to check out the individual chips and try and get more info off each of the manufacturers as to what they claim the torque figures are, and how that relates on the bhp side.
In the UK, the main chip's used are either AmD or Oettinger, though there are a few other chip manufacturers, these are regarded as the best availble to us, i wouldnt be able to comment on the others you mentioned.
There does seem to be some things developing on the Leons, but not necerssarily down to the chip.
You mention drops in turboboost, my own car has a fault at the moment, it seems to hold back or flat spot (where it seems to have no boost or acceleration) about the same rev range where you describe.
Some info has this pointing to it being the air mass sensor in the airbox, im hoping to get this seen to soon, so i can let you know the outcome. Its unlikely that its the chip, becuase my standard car was doing this before installation.
What kind of wastegate are they using, i use a Forge recirculating one, if the are using an Atmospheric one (these are the ones that whoosh) there is likelyhood that its releasing all the turbos pressure.
The VW turbos are quite small, they are not really designed to have an atmospheric release system on them, bigger turbo's cars can get away with it, cause they run such high pressures in excess of 30psi.
Chipped the most you'll get from the Leons turbo is around 10psi, as standard they develop around 6psi.
The last item concerns me more than anything, i've had an ongoing fault on my ESP/TCS for several months, long before I had it chipped, the ESP/TCS light is staying permanently illuminated and in so is being disabled.
In what way is it not playing nice with their cars?? While mine has been errattic when it has worked its controlled the extra power with no problems.
I believe again that this fault is leading to something else and not the chip, my dealer is checking it out at the moment but believes it to be either a faulty sensor and/or wiring which has become exposed and is shorting out.
In the long run if your concerned, i would wait and find out what the outcome from other peoples situations are.
I will keep this forum fully posted on my problems and my efforts to get them rectified. :)
Overall though im very happy with the Oettinger chip, its changed the cars characteristics amazingly. :D
Hope i've helped in someway, but do keep us posted on any developments with the Swedish SEAT Members, we want this to be an international forum, and appreciate everyones input.
Many Thanks
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Chips are nicer in Engines than with Fish.
Blackibiza20VT
15-08-2001, 09:21
"What kind of wastegate are they using, i use a Forge recirculating one, if the are using an Atmospheric one (these are the ones that whoosh) there is likelyhood that its releasing all the turbos pressure."
Wastegate and Dumpvalve (whoosh); two different things.
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[Message edited by Blackibiza20VT on 15 August 2001.]
For some reason was always under the impression they were the same thing.
But i aint a engineer so i guess not :p
Anyway im not experiencing anything like what you guys are struggling with in that sense anyway.
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Chips are nicer in Engines than with Fish.
ibizacupra
15-08-2001, 11:55
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZBOYD:
For some reason was always under the impression they were the same thing.
But i aint a engineer so i guess not :p
Anyway im not experiencing anything like what you guys are struggling with in that sense anyway.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wastegate is the pressure capsule ECU controlled these days, which open the turbo's wastegate to control ultimate produced boost. The dump valve deals with the off throttle excess boost (closed throttle and no where for the boost to go) Recirculating dump valve bleeds the excess back into the induction system. - quiet and efficient, vs the external (RS turbo wooosh) type valve dumps is out in loud style.
The excess pressure from a spooled up turbo and closed throttle is needed to prevent the potential compressor stall and worst case breakages than can occur.
regards
bill
:)
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
Ta Bill for explaining my ignorance ;)
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Chips are nicer in Engines than with Fish.
Seat_Devil
15-08-2001, 13:22
Hi Zboyd.
Thanks for the answer.
I agree with you that touque is more important.
I will relay that the drop in power is likely to bee the airmass on your car. But i dont understand the low figures for the preasure. I have talked to people that states that the turbo gives up to 20psi with just a chip and filter. It is of course the same people that has problems. One of these guys states that after fitting a Forge dumpvale the problem seems to be smaller.
I have had a lot of problems with my brakes, the car is now at the garage where they are trying to sort out the problems. It seems like a sensor in or around the Haldex system is faulty. :(
I will get back to you about the ESP/TCS problems when i get more info.
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Im fairly positive on the PSi levels on a stanadard Leon's Turbo (k03 i think) should be no more than 10-12psi though i will check that this afternoon with somepeople in the know.
If these cars are running excessive amounts of boost, it may be that the ECU is now releasing the extra pressure/boost to prevent something from breaking.
Though this is really only a theory.
As Bill has said the dump valve depending on its type may help alieviate the problem and maybe thats what they've noticed in that context, because it may be releasing some of that extra boost.
I'll see if i can find out some more.
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Chips are nicer in Engines than with Fish.
ibizacupra
15-08-2001, 14:17
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seat_Devil:
I have had a lot of problems with my brakes, the car is now at the garage where they are trying to sort out the problems. It seems like a sensor in or around the Haldex system is faulty. :(
I will get back to you about the ESP/TCS problems when i get more info.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haldex system....?
4x4 transmission then! 4-motion in other words...
Did'nt know the 20VT was available as 4-motion.
As for 20spi boost from the K03 turbo - no chance of sustained boost at this level from a simple chip. the upgraded IHI turbos on Jabbasports conversions run 1.2 bar boost (17.4psi) producing >270bhp, but these turbos are large in comparison. (and spool slower because of it)
Cool if a 4-motion!
regards
Bill
:p
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
Seat_Devil
15-08-2001, 15:01
Yes, a 4-wheel drive version.
they are avaible in Sweden.
Im sure that they said this (1.16-1.4Bar), but now the guys are talking about reducing the boost.
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Seat_Devil
15-08-2001, 15:04
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ibizacupra:
Originally posted by Seat_Devil:
I have had a lot of problems with my brakes, the car is now at the garage where they are trying to sort out the problems. It seems like a sensor in or around the Haldex system is faulty. :(
I will get back to you about the ESP/TCS problems when i get more info.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haldex system....?
4x4 transmission then! 4-motion in other words...
Did'nt know the 20VT was available as 4-motion.
As for 20spi boost from the K03 turbo - no chance of sustained boost at this level from a simple chip. the upgraded IHI turbos on Jabbasports conversions run 1.2 bar boost (17.4psi) producing >270bhp, but these turbos are large in comparison. (and spool slower because of it)
Cool if a 4-motion!
regards
Bill
:p
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Seat_Devil
15-08-2001, 15:05
I just found a chip (KCR-Racing) and the company is promising 220Bhp and 320Nm with just a new chip and a airfilter i expect, but no exhaust.
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Yes Bill 20VT 4 Motions, cool what the Europeans get isnt it :)
We get fobbed off here in the UK with lower spec models, which then have all thge extras removed. just in case we thought we were getting a good deal :)
*RANT MODE* :mad: :mad:
HELLO SEAT
WE LIVE IN BRITAIN
EQUALS
COLD, WET, RAIN, ICE, SNOW BLOODY HURRICAINES.
Dont you think in your infinite wisdom we could have some 4Motion motors please, pretty please.
:confused:
:confused:
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Chips are nicer in Engines than with Fish.
ibizacupra
15-08-2001, 15:12
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seat_Devil:
I just found a chip (KCR-Racing) and the company is promising 220Bhp and 320Nm with just a new chip and a airfilter i expect, but no exhaust.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow!
But for how long?? Warranty?
Just a chip... and air filter... same exhaust, same inlet piping, same intercooler.... same injectors, same fuel pressure.......hmmm.
I know the motor's inherantly good for it, provided the fuel and ignition is sorted and its does'nt detonate (pink).
Pretty potent!
Bill
:confused:
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
The 180 engine is not my speciality subject. But I have looked a lot at the 225 engine, and ran a dyno day for Audi Owners last weekend at Power Engineering.
We did have a couple of 180TT's, and I did sit in for one of the runs.
In std for the 180 was running 10psi to start with, dropped back to 7/8, and then regained to 10psi near the end. Quite different to most engines that will drop off as the rev increase.
I'm sure that 15psi would be used low down in a chipped car, dropping to 10psi.
One 225 TT was running 25psi !!. A lot of the other chipped ones around 19-20psi. This is obviously only held between roughly 2750 & 3500, before dropping back to 14-16psi.
Back on the 180 engine. If you look at ABT. With the model year 01, they offer 210bhp from a chip alone. Earlier cars only get 195bhp.
Dump valves are a common problem across the VAG range of blown engines. Mr Forge might be able to retire on sales to Audi engines alone !!.
For an interesting but long read follow
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/boards/ttoc/522.shtml
Cheers
Jonathan
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Thanks for the input Jonathan :)
It was an interesting read to see whats happening with the TT's.
Have any of your motors experienced some of the issues involving flat spots or air mass meter problems.
I've noticed in another thread someone else has reported a faulty Lamda Sensor.
Any input you can give us, and experiences with the Audi's is bound to benfit us.
Thanks again :)
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Chips are nicer in Engines than with Fish.
ibizacupra
15-08-2001, 22:46
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chins:
The 180 engine is not my speciality subject. But I have looked a lot at the 225 engine, and ran a dyno day for Audi Owners last weekend at Power Engineering.
We did have a couple of 180TT's, and I did sit in for one of the runs.
In std for the 180 was running 10psi to start with, dropped back to 7/8, and then regained to 10psi near the end. Quite different to most engines that will drop off as the rev increase.
I'm sure that 15psi would be used low down in a chipped car, dropping to 10psi.
One 225 TT was running 25psi !!. A lot of the other chipped ones around 19-20psi. This is obviously only held between roughly 2750 & 3500, before dropping back to 14-16psi.
Back on the 180 engine. If you look at ABT. With the model year 01, they offer 210bhp from a chip alone. Earlier cars only get 195bhp.
Dump valves are a common problem across the VAG range of blown engines. Mr Forge might be able to retire on sales to Audi engines alone !!.
For an interesting but long read follow
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/boards/ttoc/522.shtml
Cheers
Jonathan
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
thats interesting to know. What power did the 25psi boosted one make? Whose conversion was that?
Other than having a K04, what other mods do TT's have vs Ibizas?
cheers
Bill
:)
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
ibizacupra
15-08-2001, 23:04
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chins:
The 180 engine is not my speciality subject. But I have looked a lot at the 225 engine, and ran a dyno day for Audi Owners last weekend at Power Engineering.
We did have a couple of 180TT's, and I did sit in for one of the runs.
In std for the 180 was running 10psi to start with, dropped back to 7/8, and then regained to 10psi near the end. Quite different to most engines that will drop off as the rev increase.
I'm sure that 15psi would be used low down in a chipped car, dropping to 10psi.
One 225 TT was running 25psi !!. A lot of the other chipped ones around 19-20psi. This is obviously only held between roughly 2750 & 3500, before dropping back to 14-16psi.
Back on the 180 engine. If you look at ABT. With the model year 01, they offer 210bhp from a chip alone. Earlier cars only get 195bhp.
Dump valves are a common problem across the VAG range of blown engines. Mr Forge might be able to retire on sales to Audi engines alone !!.
For an interesting but long read follow
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/boards/ttoc/522.shtml
Cheers
Jonathan
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Having read the TT forum I'll eat my hat!
I want this kind of power! Jeez from a 1.8T? and everything stays intact! K04 that produces some serious power and torque.... hmmm nice.
regards
bill :eek: :eek: :eek:
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
I think the good new with the 1.8T engine is that Ive not read of any really serious problems with it. No nasty tales of Big ends and blown turbo's to really speak of. I' sure some will of happened, but Ive yet to read about them.
The two main ones seem to be the dump valve, and maybe the collapsing hose on the air intake (doesnt seem to affect all cars). Both of these are pretty minor.
The guy that was running 25psi was on an MTM chip, with 260bhp and 309lbft !!. I suspected on the day that his ECU was not matched to his mods, and sure enough he added Racing Cats without the revised ECU. My guess is with the revised ECU and new air intake running approx 21-22psi his power will go up to 275bhp and torque down to 280lbft.
To me thats all great when you have 4wd. Try laying that down in the Leon on a wet day.
The biggest mod I would ever do to the Leon, and even then I'd have some reservations is the MTM one. With the exhaust, air filter and larger turbo giving 232 bhp and 265lbft.
Use the link below and apply to the Leon
http://www.quattrosports.co.uk/list_for_car.asp?car=tt180
Simple chip wise the Superchipped car did quite well. Good fueling and very good power. Seemed a safe conversion.
AMD was a little variable. Few owners were on the phone to them Monday morning. I'm sure AMD will sort it out though.
Jonathan
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ibizacupra
17-08-2001, 08:04
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chins:
I think the good new with the 1.8T engine is that Ive not read of any really serious problems with it. No nasty tales of Big ends and blown turbo's to really speak of. I' sure some will of happened, but Ive yet to read about them.
Jonathan
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All these power mods and no internal tweeks done to accomodate the new found torque & bhp. Only miles will tell, but I have'nt heard of many 1.8T's will failures (except the little K03 turbo itself melting its impellor)
regards
bill
:)
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
I'm soooo tempted now :)
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Lee Shand
www.seatcupra.net (http://www.seatcupra.net)
If my K03 will melt itself (on my cupra which i don't even have yet), i will be happy to replace it to a K04 ;) ;) ;)
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ibizacupra
20-08-2001, 22:19
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiosim16v:
If my K03 will melt itself (on my cupra which i don't even have yet), i will be happy to replace it to a K04 ;) ;) ;)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does a K04 fit as a direct replacement to the K03?
i saw a picture of a K03, K03sport and K04.. The K03 sport being a modded K03 with the housing opened out and backcut... but still had the smaller diameter shaft, which is prone to breaking on overboosted engines.
K04 compared to K03 looked huge....
They also show the 1.8T exhaust manifold - the ports are absolutley tiny!! amazing it produces what it does given the peashooter holes the exhaust gas has to squeeze through.
Some USA manifolds made with good sized ports for larger turbos and better breathing etc... http://8vturbo.com/images/18Tcomp2.jpg look how small the downpipe is !! its a blummin funnel!
i just can't help myself thinking how to up the power already and I have'nt even got my car yet either !!! I am sick, ill or something.. someone lock me up !!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Bill
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
[Message edited by ibizacupra on 20 August 2001.]
Hey, I'm new around here, as I'm new in the Seat world! Just got a Leon 20VT4 (yup, as in 4wd for all of you in the UK, hehe...), still learning it. However, I was under the impression that the 180bhp and 225bhp engine in the TTs were identical except for the mapping and the turbo pressure, and was intending to push it up as soon as the warranty is over. Isn't this true? It sure sounds nice, as it's a fully tested production engine, no weird aftermarket mods etc.
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ibizacupra
31-08-2001, 14:19
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gfp:
Hey, I'm new around here, as I'm new in the Seat world! Just got a Leon 20VT4 (yup, as in 4wd for all of you in the UK, hehe...), still learning it. However, I was under the impression that the 180bhp and 225bhp engine in the TTs were identical except for the mapping and the turbo pressure, and was intending to push it up as soon as the warranty is over. Isn't this true? It sure sounds nice, as it's a fully tested production engine, no weird aftermarket mods etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does'nt the TT 225 have twin intercoolers and a K04 turbo?
Bill
:confused:
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http://www.badger5.co.uk
Not sure about the turbo but it definately has 2 intercoolers.
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Guys, the 1.8T engine that VAG use is the same for all cars, they just differ in turbo pressure.
A friend of mine has a 2001 S3 that produced 225bhp standard and NOT 210 audi claims!! Audi will launch a "new" S3 at 225 and they'll charge it 2000GBP more, but it will be exactly the SAME car!!
Anyway, the 150bhp that come off the golf GTi can be tuned up to around 230bhp without any further mod (just the chip) and perhaps a proper exhaust system.
You can boost up the 20VT Leons to around 230 with absolutely no problem at MTM. Furthermore, MTM Greece offers a 285bhp Leon/S3 (its a bit pricey though) and they change the chip, airfilter box (they make some hole and change the filter itself) and an exhaustion filter.
S3's twin pipes have a diameter of 60, the new ones are 70mm.
My friend has tuned up his car at MTM, and it's faster than hell. MTM told us his horsepower will be somewhere between 285 and 290.
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<A HREF="http://www.nitropolo.com
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[Message edited by nikos on 28 September 2001.]
One more thing about the 4motion Leons.
I believe seat has its reasons for not offering you guys the 4motion. In Greece it costs around 3000GBP, so it doesn't come cheap. However, Greece's roads really NEED 4motion since the asphalt is VERY slippery.
In the UK you have great roads, and you can actually enjoy quality braking without so much use of ABS. Here its very different and sometimes dangerous to those not acquainted (spelling!??).
However, we do not have the 4 motion Golf, nor a V5 or V6 Golf in General!Why? Because Golf GTi 150ps costs 2000gbp more than the Leon20VT 180ps, so who's gonna buy a V5 Golf?? Or a 4motion?
So I believe VAG is offering the 4motion for some of the group's models (A3, Leon) and not for Golf because they can guess it won't sell so much so why compete against each other(since they belong to the same group).
Now, in the UK you enjoy Golf 4motion instead of Leon. I wouldn't buy the Golf, but the UK is full of Golfs (not so many four motion though, nor V5).
You also have better asphalt so what 20VT4 (the four motion) will do in Greece, the 2motion Leon in UK won't do worse...
Thats just my opinion though, feel free to comment!
PS: By the way, Leon's (20VT4) cornering is actually BETTER than the S3 in greece!!! Why?? I don't know, but the Leon was a bit faster than the S3 in a cornering test a magazine had!! wierd, huh??!!
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<A HREF="http://www.nitropolo.com
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Have you ever driven on British Roads?? they are not as fantastic as some people think. They are cheap, the surfaces crack and break up on a regular basis.
They are dug up way too often, and are littered with pot holes.
Though this doesnt necceresarily justify 4WD, this country has one of the worlds most changeable weather conditions, as we are an island we get it from all sides.
Were hammered with rain most of the time, fog, and in the winter we get snow, ice, hurricanes you name it the UK gets it at some point, we even have mini tornados from time to time. :D
One of the biggest accident's during the winter months are caused by Black Ice conditions, something in Greece i doubt you experience, thats when sheet ICE developps on Asphalt, it freezes clear, and matches the roads surface, so its impossible to see.
It also can freeze in patches, so you may be driving along, quite happily on one part of a road then on an isolated section of road you may apply the brakes and end up doing cartwheels down the road. :(
The conditions of the weather really cry out for 4WD, it would be a great safety feature.
One of the UK's top selling cars is the Subaru Impreza, even though people buy them for their great performance, they also appreciate they are buying a car that grips well.
So i believe, and im sure a few would agree with me that the UK needs 4WD SEATs, but SEAT UK in their oh so infinate wisdom dont think there is a market, or they dont think they can rip off enough money out of the British, so they dont bother offering it.
:mad:
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Mark
zboyd@seatcupra.net
Imperial Blue Leon Cupra 20VT
Magazine Editor for the SEAT Drivers Club UK.
Mark, I'm a student in Essex University and I know what you mean about FREAK wheather conditions, although Essex is warmer than most of the country.
We may not have ice (to be honest I didn't even know about that thing you explained, black ice or whatever it is called... AWAY FROM ME!!!!hehe!!) but WHEN it rains, the roads are so slippery you MUST have ABS...
The reason is that in most of the country (Athens is slowly renewing most of the commonly used roads) the asphalt is SMOOTH. So smooth that the sun actually SHINES on it!!! In the UK, or at least at the places I've been your roads are not smooth.
You may wear your tyres faster than us, but thats because you actually brake! And not slide!
And this is mainly why Greece is #2 in accidents but not very many fatal ones, but in the UK IF you have an accident, someone's gonna end up dead.
I've heard on the news (i'm in the third year now) many many times that a major accident has happened on the M1 or whatever.
Because we speed, but since the roads are crap, we know it and take some care. While you have much better roads so its more likely that if an accident occurs, thats mainly NOT because of brake failure...
Or at least thats the point where I've concluded!!
Now, like I said Seat does not import 4w for marketing reasons, maybe they don't want to affect the sales of the other members of the group (ie VW and Golf 4). Maybe.
I know it sux, because its sux for us as well not to have the 4 motion Golf. And on the other have we don't have so many Imprezas! (let alone Evo6)...
How much will it cost you to import a 4x4 Leon from say Belgium or Holland?..
For us its a lot of money, almost another 5000 (on top of the car's price itself!!)
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<A HREF="http://www.nitropolo.com
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Sorry Nikos but you don´t know what your talking about.
All 1.8T´s are not the same, many diffrencies. Diffrent Intercoolers, diffrent turbos, diffrent "svänghjul" (don´t know the name in english) and so on.The S3 for an ex. have 2 IC´s, K04 Turbo, strenghten engine holdings, lightened svänghjul and so on. You can never get more then 220 bhp in an K03 turbo belive me, i know.
/Léon
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