View Full Version : Brakes
Kev Hall
26-06-2002, 16:25
Contemplating an upgrade to a 280x22mm front setup on my 8v.
Does anyone know whether the pistons are bigger on the 20vt calipers, or are they just a wider version of the ones I have on my 8v.
Just trying to work out if I'd need a bigger master cylinder to
keep the pedal movement acceptable. I think the one on my 8v is 20mm, and have a fealing the 16v and 20vt had 22 or 23mm ones.
Could anyone give me an idea on price of an uprated master cylinder (if required)
Cheers in advance
why not space out your existing calliper & then you don't need to change it?
then all you need is the new disc - you may as well do the pads - and it's a nice easy job. BUT you may need to put new hoses on depending on how much slack you have
M
hi kev,just looking through german and swedish catalogue and the g60/16vmk2 is from 29.99 up to 50 quid for an FAG ones which are oe type.this part number is for the 22mm one used on the mk2 golf 16v passat and corrado.65276/7(gs&french)
my own master cylynder has this number on the side on a yellow barcode sticker:10.6123 0640.3 doesn't look much like a seat part number to me but judging by most parts on me car its probably mk2 16v golf after all the brakes and engine are from the car. hope this helps :cheers:
mark the caliper needs 2mm shaving off it to take the 2mm extra on the disc thickness,either on the piston or where the carrier bolt screws in:cheers:
just checking rally designs site to see if they do a 285 x20 mm disc, this will be easier and just need caliper spacing out from the hub:cheers:
i'll find out where that P/n comes from
M
Kev Hall
26-06-2002, 17:29
Cheers guys, I'll look into the 280x20 option, although I can get some 2nd hand tarox 280x22mm 40 grooves for 40quid so depending on price it might be quite similar! Let us know what you find out.
Cheers again
ibizacupra
26-06-2002, 22:34
Why f##k about shaving bits of calipers when you can readily get factory parts which are meant for the job.
These are your brakes after all.
Dodgy as FCUK !
I would'nt do it personally.
You know where the parts are... ;)
Bill
absalutely bill, thats why i'm thinking of keeping my uprated 256 discs ,pads and hoses or going the whole hog and going straight up to brembo's i've spent 250 quid upgrading last year and am looking at spendng another 400+ on brembo's so looking long and hard,
was looking at work at putting the car on the brake tester to see the improvement i already have ,can you do the same to see the increase in braking lbs is worth the money.
my only concern is,is it worth the 400 odd quid for how much braking force,which will only really be used on track days ,which i only do maybe 3-4 times a year thinking that the gearing option maybe better for over taking and actually useful on hte road but with only 145bhp think that the braking side is as good as i need.
you do more track days and maybe drive faster on the road so may need the extra braking .
the options of taking 2mm off the caliper is something i picked up on on gti forum which has been done by peeps far more experienced than me so am just passing on info that might help some of the SEAT drivers here,never suggesting that they take an angle grinder and guessing 2 mill off the piston:cheers:
ibizacupra
27-06-2002, 08:35
Originally posted by jason
absalutely bill, thats why i'm thinking of keeping my uprated 256 discs ,pads and hoses or going the whole hog and going straight up to brembo's i've spent 250 quid upgrading last year and am looking at spendng another 400+ on brembo's so looking long and hard,
was looking at work at putting the car on the brake tester to see the improvement i already have ,can you do the same to see the increase in braking lbs is worth the money.
my only concern is,is it worth the 400 odd quid for how much braking force,which will only really be used on track days ,which i only do maybe 3-4 times a year thinking that the gearing option maybe better for over taking and actually useful on hte road but with only 145bhp think that the braking side is as good as i need.
you do more track days and maybe drive faster on the road so may need the extra braking .
the options of taking 2mm off the caliper is something i picked up on on gti forum which has been done by peeps far more experienced than me so am just passing on info that might help some of the SEAT drivers here,never suggesting that they take an angle grinder and guessing 2 mill off the piston:cheers:
No worries. Money does'nt grow on tree's (well not round my way anyway :)) so you are being very sensible in weighing up the benefits vs cost.
I would say, that braking is by far overlooked as a true performance modification, but it is the single most important "advantage" you can get on track etc... My old Jetta (groan) reels in other far more powerful cars under braking and cornering, and the power it has is its least advantage to be honest. There are loads more powerful cars than mine, but they are generally behind me on track - LOL
The gains from the Brembos are like night and day over the 280's and the 280's were like night and day over the 256's I ran on me Jetta. I don't think there is any mor epowerful brale possible now, than the Brembo's... They can lock up at will at any speed... That to me is plenty of braking.
The big reason (other than my planned power hike) for changing to larger more powerful brakes, is to get me back some margin in the brakes. The 280's worked, but they had to work their arse off to do so, got incredibly hot (pagid killing hot!!), and are likely to fail sooner rather than later. I seriously think some ducting is required to the inside of the disks on 20VT's, as the inside cracking I suffered from the Tarox disks, has been accompanied by pad delamination on that inner pad. Way too much heat, and not enough dissipation.
If you want the 280's, PM or email me, and I will sort you out a deal. (I want rid of some parts)
As for angle grinders on calipers and calipers, I think the CLub GTi forum did a stint on the BIY (Bodge It Yourself) brigade and the risks that go with that. - Would Top Race/Rally teams resort to such things? erm no.
All the best
regards
Bill
Angle grind the pistons-scary, you need to turn 2mm off the shoulders of the guide pins, which if done properly is ok,but if you have any doubts then get some mk3 gti calipers (£50 the pair from scrappy)
Kev Hall
27-06-2002, 10:53
So does anyone know whether I'll have to change the master cylinder if I put 20vt callipers onto my 8v?
Ie: are the callipers just a wider verision of my existing ones, or do they have different sized pistons?
Is there any danger of overbraking on the brembos? ie; emergency braking on the motorway and locking them up? I know we've got abs, but that only works if the tyres have something to grip on.
Just a thought, as the brakes on my pug 205 were very good, but locked up and slid the car a couple times, didn't inspire confidence!
ibizacupra
27-06-2002, 11:01
Originally posted by ScottyP
Is there any danger of overbraking on the brembos? ie; emergency braking on the motorway and locking them up? I know we've got abs, but that only works if the tyres have something to grip on.
Just a thought, as the brakes on my pug 205 were very good, but locked up and slid the car a couple times, didn't inspire confidence!
Best mod done to the car yet!
Brembo's rock!
Overbraked.. Nope. Superbly braked - yes!
The ABS does cut in, but thats what its there for. With the added extra frotn disk braking, you get actual stopping before the ABS comes in. Previously, the rears were locking before the fronts were anywhere near at their limit, then the ABS came in, and ballsed the whole thing up... overrunning into corners type bad.
Now, the system actually feels pretty damn good, EVEN with the ABS on.. yea really. Me actually saying kind words about ABS.. Blimey! I can't believe I am typing this, but they do really help stop the car now.
As for overbraked.. Well its only a copy of what Seat sold anyway.. in the Ibiza Cupra-R's.
I don't quite follow your logic re "but that only works if the tyres have something to grip on." - Erm.. Tarmac?, Concrete,? Road surface?
Believe me. They work. I'll give anyone a demo if they are in any doubt! :D but hang on.. I warn you. you will need to brace yourself! :D :D :D :D
regards
Bill
:)
"I don't quite follow your logic re "but that only works if the tyres have something to grip on." - Erm.. Tarmac?, Concrete,? Road surface?"
oops, sorry - meant that if conditions are very wet for example, where the water collects on the surface, or if its icy. If the breaks are too strong the wheels just lock and slide.
But i'm getting the feeling these Brembos are top notch!:D
Read somewhere that abs sensors need re-calibrating when the cars lowered, is this true, or just another garage trying to screw a few quid out of people?
:cheers:
When its raining etc, then you use the other ABS computer the soggy grey one between your ears, and use appropriate speed. I know what you mean about over sensitive brakes, and have driven some citroens where the brake might as well have been a switch, but it's all about feedback and learning the new setup.
ibizacupra
27-06-2002, 12:47
Originally posted by ScottyP
"I don't quite follow your logic re "but that only works if the tyres have something to grip on." - Erm.. Tarmac?, Concrete,? Road surface?"
oops, sorry - meant that if conditions are very wet for example, where the water collects on the surface, or if its icy. If the breaks are too strong the wheels just lock and slide.
But i'm getting the feeling these Brembos are top notch!:D
Read somewhere that abs sensors need re-calibrating when the cars lowered, is this true, or just another garage trying to screw a few quid out of people?
:cheers:
They're cool Scotty..
Care to try to outbrake me? :D
The pedal feel is very good, same travel as before, maybe even slightly less, and very progressive. You don't have to prod too hard to get to realyl work though.
No problemo.
Better than stock Leon brakes in the feel dept, as those feel to damn sharp and over servo'd as they made my heel and toe technique dive the nose down they were so sensitive. I did'nt like their feel, although they worked very well.
regards
Bill
'Care to try to outbrake me? '
depends Bill, am I allowed to use the handbrake? :D :D
would be interested to see a demo at the next trackday. Another thing to add to the 'must get' list.
:cheers:
Just trying to work out if I'd need a bigger master cylinder
Anything that came with 256x20mm front brakes allready has the 22.2mm master cylinder.
The only difference between the callipers is the 280mm ones are 8mm wider, the piston is the same size.
If you want to use the existing calipers its fine to just take 2mm off the hex end of the sliding pins on a lathe, it perfectly safe and have been doing it on Golfs for about the last 5 years.
I have 280mm carriers if anyone needs some.
ibizacupra
07-07-2002, 18:55
Originally posted by ScottyP
'Care to try to outbrake me? '
depends Bill, am I allowed to use the handbrake? :D :D
:cheers:
LOL
You can use whatever you like mate, footbrake, handbrake, anchor out the window.... Wet or Dry.
Helped me get 1st place at the Scottish Club GTI National Sprint :D
I even like the ABS now! yea really! me, like ABS... never thought I'd say that.
regards
Bill