View Full Version : Chipping the Cordy
Upset man I am. I was re-assured that Jabbasport chipped normally aspirated cars but they don't. Another reason to be emmensely jealous about Johnnie's Cupra!
:devil:
Right, I'm in the mood. I'm in Cambridgeshire, the heart of tuning Fords this is (my mate Harvey has Cossies coming out of his ears at SCS), and I thought that there just might be somewhere fairly local to tune normally aspirated Seats.
:dunno:
I'm going on holiday next weekend down to Newquay. Is there anyone down say Sommerset/Dorset or neighbouring counties? And if you've had your Cordy chipped, was it an off the shelf chip or mapped to the car? How much did it cost you, and did you think it was worth it?
Cheers,
Speak to AMD they do chips for normally aspirated VW engines, including the 2.0L 16v.
www.auto-amd.com
Well, just had a friendly chat with one of the guys from RPM. I nearly fell off mi seat (if you pardon the pun!).
He said there's two conversions, chip only:
150 BHP - 160 BHP is about £400, inc. VAT and fitted, two hours wait
150 BHP - 185 BHP (yep, that's 185!), er, are you ready for this. I'll spell this out so as you can get the grasp of it: TWO THOUSAND POUNDS (or there abouts!). Anyone got any spare lottery winnings?!!
So there you have it.
As for AMD, I'll check it out another day. I've got a splitting headache at the minute! But cheers for the info.
The AmD chip will be about 250+VAT
don't forget RPM will charge you full on SEAT labour rates to fit whatever makes 185bhp (Cam, chip, exhaust?)
plus the parts aren't the cheapest as you need two cams (250 ea) and a £300 exhaust
M
their 185 conversion is what i've got - very loosely 185bhp!
consists of head, cams and chip (already had 'zorst and modded airbox).
It isn't at all cheap, but it is well done and you know there's not much else you can sensibly do to it (I know throttlebodies and turbo etc, but how many people can justify the power to cost ratio???)
getting the chip last I felt it made very little difference on power, just evened out the fuelling for the cams/head and lowered the powerband.
But it was an off the shelf job and not a mapped job.
hopkinsgm
09-07-2002, 20:58
Welcome to the world of tuning n/a motors...
Basically, when tuning an engine you want to get as much fuel in to make the biggest bang possible. This is all well and good, BUT you need to get lots of air into the cylinder too so that the fuel burns efficiently. With a turbo, getting more air in is a relatively simple exercise - crank up the boost and you have more air, so you can increase the fuelling accordingly (yes, i know there's a little more to it than that). The problem with a normally aspirated car is that there is no means of blowing more air into the cylinder. You have to rely on making everything flow as smoothly as possible which should increase the flowrate. This can get very involved very quickly as making things as big as possible can often have the opposite effect - amount of gas flowing remains the same, but in a larger cross section the gas speed actually drops!
As I believe RPM use as their motto, "Speed is just a question of money, how fast do you want to go?". VAG 16v motors have never been particularly easy or cost effective to tune - sadly this is the way of the world. A chip on its' own (and filter and/or exhaust) could well result in a wider power band - alright, not too much increase in the headline power figure, but more down lower so you don't have to rev the motor as high to get anywhere quick.
G
Originally posted by hopkinsgm
Welcome to the world of tuning n/a motors...
...A chip on its' own (and filter and/or exhaust) could well result in a wider power band - alright, not too much increase in the headline power figure, but more down lower so you don't have to rev the motor as high to get anywhere quick.
G
I love these kind of debates! Today, engine tuning is all about hardware and software, just like computers. As someone once passed a phrase to me: "The hardware is only as good as the software makes it". What we need to realise is that car manufacturers spend many man years finding the best trade-offs for performance and economy for certain configurations of engine. Generally speaking, when you chip a car, you are adjusting the median of these two factors, and another rule counts: You cannot have horsepower without burning fuel. So where RPM's slogan comes in is not just in getting a car modified, it's in the running costs too. Generally, an engine that's been designed to produce xxx amount of horsepower will do it more efficiently and with less stress than one that's been taken over its orignal specification. So what one must gauge is:
Is the cost of modifying the car worth it against trading up to a bigger/more powerful car?
Some people argue that spending a couple of thousand pounds allows you to make a statement and produce one-offs. That's great when it comes to bikes because there is a never-ending list of parts and companies to do just about anything you like. But this is not so in the after-market car industry. I'm not one of those people that is going to spend a mint on parts I cannot resell or remove, and make a huge loss on it. I'd rather have an A4 1.8 turbo deisel and get it chipped (which incidentally chucks the torque through the sky!).
I must admit, the AMD option looks good. A chip mapped to the car for £250, and that includes dyno/rolling road time. The pure unexilerating fact that you only get 10-12 BHP etc does not tell the full story, because the ECU maps are modified up and down the rev range and at varying degrees of throttle. The only proof of the result is in the driving.
One thing ALL modified car drivers must be weary of: Quality of fuel. When I had my Uno Turbo and put Q8 fuel in it, I couldn't go to full power or over 4'000 RPM without severe det. So I ran it as dry as possible off the boil and stuck some super unleaded in it from Esso. Then the car picked up and flew. I get a noticeable improvement in the Cordy with super unleaded, but comparibly much less.
I'm going to keep the Cordy for at least another year, so I think I will have the chip done.
There is another way of getting big power gains, other than using forced induction via turbo or supercharger. NO2. Nitrous can deliver 25 BHP etc with a simple kit for about £750 fitted, but from there you could in theory take it to 40 BHP etc without too much trouble. From there, wet systems which are rather complex because fuel/air ratios can go lean too easily, can deliver as much as 100 BHP etc, on some vehicles maybe more, but obviously you use more NO2 and then installation costs are higher as parts of the engine require modification. The beauty being that you don't have to use it all the time, just when you need that extra thrust, and as long as you don't go nuts with it, it's not expensive to run with a small installation.
If you're near Peterborough (Cambs) and are interested in having a simple NO2 kit fitted or just simply would like more information, call Darren at Complete Car Care: (01733) 333 164. He's also got a tried and tested solution, including a proper solenoid for switching on and off the extremely high pressures.
NO2's tempting, but I think I'm going to wait until the next car comes along and get back into turbos. I'm a firm believer in if the car ain't quick enough, you need another car!
Lets keep this thread going, lots of people have got their own opinions and it's good to publish your ideas. Lets 'ave 'em then...
I have to add with my RPM conversion the fuel consumption is not noticeably greater than my parents standard 2.0 16v - if its done and set up properly it must be just as efficient. Or maybe i'm getting places faster so have the engine running for a shorter period! :D
But I have seen cars with uprated turbos and big carbs slurp petrol like there's no tomorrow. (escort xr3i on twin 40's gives 8-10mpg - but by god can it shift!)
As you've sort of said, it all comes down to how much you're happy to pay and what you expect - a chip 'aint going to break HP figures, but it will make it nicer to drive, for a relatively small ammount of cash.
:cheers:
Cordoba16VT
17-07-2002, 16:45
guys I really cannot accept that u pay 2000pound for 35hp increase.
go to this site http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/51354?it=0 and contact Redrotor that is if u want more power ofcourse, " he is the owner of the site" so to have really more power u need the following
1-turbo
2-turbo manifold
3-downpipe
4-oil lines and pan
5-Intercooler
6-a chip or a standalone EMS or something that would provide
the extra fuel to compensate for the increase in air flow. and that
would be for example an extra injector controller or bigger
injectors and something that controls them.
http://www.matrixengineering.cc/products/16vturbokits.php sells the stageI kit for $2250 and this leads to 175whp out of the 9a american 2.0L 16v stock 123hp engine. 175whp is about 200hp at the crank, so with an IC and more fuel 300hp is so easy to be done.
believe me its not that hard to be done, and if u drive as a modern person u can keep using ur stock clutch, tranny and differential without any pbms.
I am still using all these stock even the clutch and my car was a 1.6L 8v 100hp, now its about 250hp I guess and after 4rs of abuse the clutch started sometimes to slip. so when u need more power the F.I. is the route, btw all the parts on my car are custome made and the turbo stuff cost is about $1200 only. it only needs some patience and the desire to make it happen.
good luck to whatever ur future plans are.
Nabil
Im away to take out the chip on my cordy, got it from Star Performance, took Bhp from 156, with air filter, custom powerflow exhuast - backbox, once it was chipped it was sitting at 170bhp.
Smart eh ? revs easier at higher revs and beats most cars.
Dunno how much it cost cos the car was supposed to be chipped when I bought it, turned out it wasnt so I forced the dealer I got it from to do the chipping free of charge or I would sue there ass.
Ovv - 1 week til I get my Ibiza
cordobabrendy
18-07-2002, 21:16
would that chip be of any use to the likes of my cordy? i know they aer mapped personally for each car, but i wouldnt mind an extra 10-12 brake, even if it isnt quite 100% mated.
not a clue matey, if it was possible to sell it you know I would to you, 1st refusal!!
Might ask Jim at Star, actually I think he might be miffed at me cos I was gonna bu his Silver beezer but the deal fell through, so I will get my mate Gareth to ask instead.
Ovv:cheers:
cordobabrendy
18-07-2002, 23:25
"sell " ?? im not familiar with this word, i'll barter some chickens and a fecked f2 bumper for it!!! hahah
goodman, id love to have my power smoothed out and upped a lil.
My mates going to Star Performance tomorrow, Ive asked him to ask about me removing it myself. Not sure how much its worth really cos I didnt have to pay for the chip.Still wont mind some cash for it.
Will let you know soon
Ovv
if it's the 16v i'm 99% sure you just pull it out.
M
cordobabrendy
19-07-2002, 22:07
awee bit of cash i can handle!!! heheh or pc bits!!! hehe have systemboards amd processors etc :)
as long as it isnt too much matey ill be happy to throw you a few quid !:cheers:
now, please excuse me, the celebrations for tomorrows birthday festivities begin tonight, im off to get pissed!!:devil:
i have recently had my tdi chipped and it is wicked!! it added 26bhp and was directly mapped to my motor. upsolute in chattenden kent did a perfect job, you just ring thenm up and they ask you for a serial number off your original ecu and then you go to their workship which is called impossible performance and they re-map a new ecu for your car, it cost £295 and they do non turbo motors as well!!!
http://www.upsolute.com/
give them a bell!!
ibizacupra
30-07-2002, 13:21
Originally posted by ScottyP
(I know throttlebodies and turbo etc, but how many people can justify the power to cost ratio???)
Thats all very sensible!
Power to cost ratio...........
None of us would mod things if that was the criteria :p
Smiles per mile and Big Grin factor of getting a "regular" car to look normal and go like hell works for me :D :D :D
Bill
ibizacupra
30-07-2002, 13:29
Turbo vs n/a
WHICH IS BEST?
BOTH is the answer. (preference)
Upsides and downside to both.
Anyone else?
Bill
You can't expect 25 brake gains from chipping a n/a car. There will need to be other mods in the package as well which will push the cost up considerably. That's why my next car will be turbo'd.
Another reason is most people seem to be fixated on BHP figures. If you are into push-in-the-back, you need to look at lb-ft figures instead. Then you can compare the new breeds of VAG TDi engines with petrol turbos. Then all of a sudden it seems like going turbo diesel is a worthwhile venture.
I don't know what I'm going to do as yet. Truth be known, if I want speed, I hop on the bike. For anyone who hasn't realised it yet and loves the thrills of driving fast in a car, think again: Bikes are so much faster; if anyone's got 250+ BHP in the car, I'll race ya on the bike and win every time. And still get over 40 to the gallon! You need supercar performance to keep up with a bike.
I'm keeping my Cordy for some time to come; it's the individuality thing, so I might get it chipped this year. Egg me on to get it done! A little more exceleration in the mid-rev department's what I'm looking for (3-4.5K), so it's more of a case of making some of the original 150 BHP accessible at sensible revs, instead of having to rev the nuts off the thing!
It's looking like the Upsolute chip or the AmD chip. Anyone know which is best? It's easier for me to get to Kent (my uncle's down there so I can stay the night!).
Cheers,
Originally posted by Chester
Truth be known, if I want speed, I hop on the bike. For anyone who hasn't realised it yet and loves the thrills of driving fast in a car, think again: Bikes are so much faster; if anyone's got 250+ BHP in the car, I'll race ya on the bike and win every time. And still get over 40 to the gallon! You need supercar performance to keep up with a bike.
LOL :grin:
I agree totally.
I've got a VFR400 - a small bike I hear you say?
PAH - it only weighs 120kg and with approx 60hp (dont know what torque) it does 0-60 in about 3.5 secs! touch that if you can!
/me is looking forward to the ride home now ;)
ibizacupra
03-08-2002, 16:39
I am looking forward to IHI & Jabbapower so I can play with Bikes.
Not that I would be faster, but just to make then have to work a bit harder keeping ahead :p I do harass them (in a friendly way) on the twisties :D Had a few good plays with soem bikes.. in very good humour from the bikers too. Top peeps! :)
It can't happen quick enough as far as I'm concerned..... (not typically a patient man once my minds made up)
regards
Bill
The chip's soon to be going in.
Talk about catch 'em before they leg it, I called AmD in Oxfordshire last Saturday to make some enquiries (thanks to MarkP for the suggestion). The guy was just passing through and they were officially closed. Now that's service; to answer questions and book me in! I suggest if you want any work done soon, call them NOW because they're booking 3 weeks in advance.
So, the outcome is Friday 20th September - AmD to chip mi Cordy. It's a painful time is waiting.
Incidentally, I called Impossible Performance in Kent, the Upsolute agent. Left a couple of messages on their answerphone during last week, and he just got back to me this morning. He said that Upsolute have had problems due to different manufacturers putting different ECUs in the 2.0 16V. He said that there are Bosch ECUs, and Marelli (apparently french, not the Italian Magnetti Marelli (sp?)) and this could cause a problem. I'm going to take a look at the bugger and see what I've got.
Whatever happens, I'll keep ya posted.
:cheers:
just a little reply to chester who was curious as to the ft/lb gains from the upsolute chip. it is approx 30% on the turbo'd engines, mine jumped from 149ft/lb to 210ft/lb
unless you go on tdiclub.com nobody talks torque, which is why i always talk bhp, but the gains are approx 30% on both area bhp and torque.
and for £295, who's complaining!! my car runs like shit off a shovel now and i'm seeing mpg improvements by approx 7-8%, so when you compare the costs to amd and superchip it's a bargain. (£4.84p per ft/lb gain!!) considerably cheap!! i drove from manchester to kent and back for the upsolute treatment and was completely satisfied with the product.
a very happy customer:)
AmD have done there stuff, and it's all good
Sometime in the future, I'll get a scanner so you graph hungry creatures can see the dyno plots, for the meantime, here's the story:
The technician said the ABF engine started life out as 146 BHP. The project was binned, but after other manufacturers started churning out thousands of 2.0l 16V engines, it was revived once more. Other manufacturer's power figures were all 150 BHP for similar spec engines apparently, but when VAG developers had completed their stuff, they were seeing 155 BHP on the dyno. Evenso, VAG marketing insisted that their engine would also be in the brochure at 150 BHP.
Now my car has got the exhaust and air-element already installed. The first run on the dyno showed a lot of weaknesses, possibly because it was running a little too lean, and this caused some power holes. The reason for me having the chip wasn't just for the extra performance (which on a n/a car is virtually bugger all), but to iron out these problems. And hey presto, it works.
I notice much bigger gains, expecially accelerating from 3'500 in 5th. Town driving is much improved, and you can notice the extra power top end, although I haven't been over 90 yet (did you see that traffic on the M11 Sunday night?!!).
The end result is that it's taken the power up from 155 to 169 BHP at about 6'800 revs. I was surprised to find peak torque at just below 5 grand; just goes to show how some drivers do find this engine peaky. The technician said that 200 BHP can be found easily, but I'm sticking with it how it is. The next stage in going faster will be a new car.
So there you go. If you haven't done it already, and you want just a little extra grunt, my advice is to get yourself down to AmD and get yer Cordy 16V chipped. Each chip is designed for your car, so you know you're getting the best from your setup.
As promised, here are the Torque graphs...
And the BHP graphs...
Sorry about the months of anguish for you 16Valvers!
cordobabrendy
07-02-2003, 15:12
ches, in the graphs, i take the torque is red before and black after? or is it wheels and flywheel?
btw ill stick mine up here too to compare a standard ecu vs amd.
cordobabrendy
07-02-2003, 15:16
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=128245
also, do you think your 0-60 or 30-70 has improved? if so how noticeable is it?
Lucky_32
07-02-2003, 18:54
Hmm - maybe a chip replacement would be in order...
As I have the cams etc from the Oetinger conversion but the chip seems pooh - then I can keep up with Brendy :D :D
cordobabrendy
07-02-2003, 22:49
think its your wing matey!! have no fear, if i can get hold of another f2 bumper then my wing will get to see the light of day too!! then we can both saunter down the back straights together!!:D :D
Lucky_32
08-02-2003, 18:07
And stop off for a some lunch on the old rear picnic tables.... :D
cordobabrendy
08-02-2003, 18:14
the way things are going today mate, i might as well top myself, timing belt went this morning, heard a slight crunch/grind noise and engine died, fingers crossed its only the belt.
Oohhhh Shhhhittteee! I hope for your sake it was just the belt Brendy. Bloody hell!
Those graphs are indeed before and after, corrected power (compensating for air temp and baro. pres.) at the flywheel. Really nice results I think.
Yeah, 0-60 and 60-100 are very much improved. In fact, the biggest improvement is driving normally through town. Then the big rush past 4 grand, that's a lot stronger now. It feels like it's really pulling instead of struggling to pull through flat spots. That's the fault of K&N and exhaust before the chip, but it's all sorted with the chip :D
Lucky_32
09-02-2003, 12:32
Originally posted by cordobabrendy
the way things are going today mate, i might as well top myself, timing belt went this morning, heard a slight crunch/grind noise and engine died, fingers crossed its only the belt.
Noooo
Thats a bummer - hopefully no engine damage.
cordobabrendy
09-02-2003, 15:48
as i said lucky, we'll see on monday, if worst comes to worst ill get hold of a 2ndhand head (circa 100-200 quid) maybe one thats beet flowed if possible, then chip might actually give even better results. Ches those graphs are very nice indeedy, 150 lb/f?? thats pretty much the same as the 1.820vt standard torque so it should sucker a few ibizas at the trackdays!! :D:D:D
Yeah. It's nice. But the Ibiza TDi was doing 300 lb/ft! I'm 'avin a think...
Seriously though, the car's totally different with the chip. Perhaps the engine that's in my Cordy is a particularly good example, I don't know. I questioned whether spending £300 for the chip for only another 15 odd brake was worth it. Answer: Definitely! :D
And I'd definitely go the AMD route. The off the shelf Oetinger won't bite hard enough coz it's not for a specific engine. As long as the tuner you go to does a chip for your car and they've got a good reputation, you should get similar results to me.
Anyhow, fingers crossed Brendy :jog:
cordobabrendy
10-02-2003, 22:16
hoping that costs arnt too high, ill be getting chipped myself soon.
all bloomin money isnt it!!!!:sick: