View Full Version : I really hate to say this......
mark sheerin
10-11-2005, 00:59
Believe me after buying 5 spanking new seats over the last 11 years it really grieves me to say this but...
VW are having trouble with SEAT...
after reading Autoexpress Autocar today...
SEAT sales have slumped accross Europe leading to factory overproduction now
leading to strike threats by Martorell workers...
The problem.....
Walter da Silva has been criticised for doing untold damage to SEATs image with the new range of cars...It was said SEATs last good looking car was the previous Toledo.
VW are expected to make radical changes to the line up...
Me I expect the Altea and Toledo will go leaving just the new Leon which will be sportily made over to claw back the core customers..the current Ibiza may also get an early facelift...thats just my view of what is needed...watch this space.
sad sad day for me but not unexpected to be honest
I think a lot, probably too much, is being read into what is still a complicated and developing story. The problems at SEAT are not really about the current models so much, but more about the downturn in production of other models.
ie no Arosa, likely to be no Alhambra before long, no Inca vans, and no VW Caddy's, this has created a shortfall in work, hence job cuts, to prevent an operating loss for this year.
If you look at every year prior to this one, they have been up in profits. However recent outlays in budget, for the design and production of the new models will no doubt not help % profit forecasts.
The whole industry is feeling the pinch, Ford have also just announced talks, with its workforce over job cuts.
Other factors like payroll in Spain, compared to cheaper east european (Skoda) labour, VW even outsourcing work to China.
This is a problem VW (VAG) have created, and they need to diversify the brands better, and allow SEAT to be the sporty brand they have always muted them to be, allow them access to Audi's parts bin with less restrictions on what can be developed.
For instance, people who want Audi's will pay the premium for an Audi, they should stop fretting, and let SEAT build affordable, sporty cars, coupes hot hatches even a 2 seater.
GreyKnight
10-11-2005, 07:41
Well to be honest you don't exactly see a lot of new SEAT's on the roads do you? I see a couple of Altea's now and again, and I've only ever seen one or two Toledo's since they came out! They can't be doing very well out of the UK market these days...
mr_claypole
10-11-2005, 08:26
z, you're right i think with you comment about downturn in models.. i remember talking to someone fairly high up at ford a couple of years ago who told me that out of all the models they create, its the transit that makes them their money, not passenger cars..
what i'm getting at, is its a lot more complex than we probably realise.
!¬(
warren_cox
10-11-2005, 08:38
Another example of where excessive management intervention has caused unnecessary complications and a regression in business performance. Businesses are being run by accountants these days, not innovators, and as such SEAT's early promise seems to have been neutered by VW's overbearing urge to pigeonhole its brands. Rather than working on the strength of SEAT that made it appealing to its core followers, they have wanted to protect its GTi brand and push SEAT back a peg or two. I never understood why the Arosa didn't get a GTi equivalent, and although its not an aspirational car it was a good rangefiller.
I see this is businesses a lot. They overcomplicate the internal operating procedures and therefore limit brand performance. I think if businesses spent less time fighting the political wars there would be a lot more inspiration, enthusiasm and PROFIT availability.
driveforward
10-11-2005, 08:53
Well to be honest you don't exactly see a lot of new SEAT's on the roads do you? I see a couple of Altea's now and again, and I've only ever seen one or two Toledo's since they came out! They can't be doing very well out of the UK market these days...
I see a fair few Ibizas of basic specs (not many FR's - in fact I've seen more Cupras), and lots of Leon MK1 Cupras/FR's/LCR's, with the odd tolly here and there.. however, since the new models have been released, I bet I haven't seen more than 5 Alteas, 2 Toledos and 1 new Leon out on the roads. Heck, I've seen more Arosas than all of them put together.
It will be interesting to see their sales figures and compare them with last years - I predict a rather large slide.
Redcupra20vt
10-11-2005, 09:05
it does seem strange, that of the current line up of cars i havent seen any apart from the mk4 ibiza.
I have seen like 2 alteas, still havent seen a new leon in the flesh and the only toledo i have seen was in a showroom
Like i have said in a previous thread, they are going to have to do something serious with the new sporty leon or i shall be looking at other brands, cause honestly i dont like any of the new cars they are producing. however i love the MK3 ibiza, i love he Mk1 Leon the old toledo etc. I personally think seat are heading down the wrong road
Paul
vw got greedy and also got spooked by ford buying up manufacturers so went on the spending spree and have ended up with 2x2 brands selling the same cars with different clothes on at different prices
Skoda & SEAT
VW & Audi
this is where there problem lies, there is no badge identity per sae now, only a generic car of the same platform with a not so different shell
SEAT have been very unlucky, they had the impetus about 3 years ago to really get going, but VW have denied them the chance to compete as it would of hurt sales of their all important golf gti
hope they pull through
The problem is the line up IMHO, the Altea is great and will do well I reckon. The toldeo is just a waste of time, it has no idividuality of its own and SEAT should have made it a car in its own right not an Altea witha boot, an ugly one at that.
The new Leon just makes me think of an Altea and I think that is true of a lot of people. As soon as you see it you think MPV and not hatch back car which I think will put people off.
The Cupra/FR really needs to be special to raise the brand awareness
Workers at SEAT automobile factories in northeastern Spain staged a one-day strike Thursday to protest plans by its German parent company, Volkswagen, to cut 1,346 jobs - or 8 percent of the work force, a union official said.
Matias Carnero, of the General Workers Union, said the buses that normally take workers to the company's factories at the Barcelona facility, as well as factories at nearby Martorell and in Pamplona, had arrived empty for the morning shift.
"The stoppage is being supported 100 percent," Carnero said. "The only people reporting for work are machine maintenance staff, which we agreed on."
A SEAT spokeswoman said she was not immediately able to comment.
The walkout began at 2045GMT Wednesday, coinciding with the workers' night shift. Union representatives reported total support on the first shift too.
Many of the company's 16,000 employees were expected to take part in a protest in central Barcelona Thursday morning. Talks over the dispute resume Tuesday.
SEAT says it must offload workers so it can better compete with VW and Skoda models, which are built in Eastern Europe on wages that are a fraction of what Spanish autoworkers earn.
The company reported euro145 million in profit last year, an increase of nearly 8 percent from the previous year, but said it will slide into an operating loss in 2005 unless it trims its work force.
SEAT has presented the Catalonia regional government with documents justifying the layoffs. The union has rejected SEAT's proposal to cut workers' shifts by 10 percent and their wages by the same proportion.
Wolfsburg-based Volkswagen bought SEAT in 1990, 40 years after it was founded by Spain's National Industry Institute with help from Italy's Fiat SpA. SEAT's line of automobiles include the Altea, Cordoba, New Leon and Toledo.
sjtscott
10-11-2005, 11:30
Well I think it sums up what a poor job they've done at making the new range desirable.
Having been completely unimpressed with Leon Mk2s styling as discussed on another thread I have no interest returning to SEAT for next car.
So next year it will be time to wave goodbye to SEAT Ownership when I change my car sorry to have to say.
Starbank
10-11-2005, 13:18
Again, I seem to be jumping to SEAT's defence on the new models.
The reason I have bought a new Leon and swapped loyalty from VW is purely down to the fact I had a hired Altea for a week in Spain this year. It left me thoroughly impressed. The only niggle was the MPV styling - but that's only because I don't intend on throwing kids in the back of my car any time soon.
It's been said before many times elsewhere on this forum - reserve judgement on the new Leon until you have seen one in the flesh - most people are nicely surprised. Regarding sales of the new Leon, it's only been on sale for 7 weeks - and there is a 12 week delivery period once ordered if you want options - there won't be many new Leons on the road for months!
Then again, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
I for one really hope that this mess is sorted out.
needs to be a monster and released soon......
It worked wonders for Subaru......
" Hey SEAT !"
4WD 2.7 biturbo :drool:
GreyKnight
10-11-2005, 17:41
Then again, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
I agree, but to be honest I would say you are in a minority in thinking that the new Leon looks good :( I saw it in the press and thought it looked horrible, then I saw in in the flesh a few times and thought it looked even worse! I don't care how well they drive if they don't provide the image of a car I'm happy to be seen driving.
I have to admit that my next car will probably not be a SEAT... :cry:
Guess im in the minority, cause i like the new Leon, but im still waiting for the Cupra version.
andycupra
10-11-2005, 17:53
im personally very dissapointed with the current range.
i dont know how they drive, but from a looks point of view.
i know the more sensible ones out there will tell me looks are not everything. but dont underestimate the effect.
eg how can anyone explain why the river 200 outsold the near identical honda, other than a better job on styling!
mrcoyote
10-11-2005, 17:58
eg how can anyone explain why the river 200 outsold the near identical honda, other than a better job on styling!
Import quotas, pricing, equipment specifications, people thinking they were being patriotic? The list goes on and on...
Believe me after buying 5 spanking new seats over the last 11 years it really grieves me to say this but...
VW are having trouble with SEAT...
after reading Autoexpress Autocar today...
SEAT sales have slumped accross Europe leading to factory overproduction now
leading to strike threats by Martorell workers...
The problem.....
Walter da Silva has been criticised for doing untold damage to SEATs image with the new range of cars...It was said SEATs last good looking car was the previous Toledo.
VW are expected to make radical changes to the line up...
Me I expect the Altea and Toledo will go leaving just the new Leon which will be sportily made over to claw back the core customers..the current Ibiza may also get an early facelift...thats just my view of what is needed...watch this space.
sad sad day for me but not unexpected to be honest
Have to agree with your Toledo comment but look how long it took them to get a RHD model with 1.8T, TDI 130 and 150 models !!!
Someone from VW was protecting sales of other VAG brands.
Starbank
11-11-2005, 10:30
The issue on the new Leon's looks is an interesting one.
It would be interesting to know how many of the people on this forum who really like, or have placed an order for, the new Leon actually own a Mk1?
I wasn't a fan of the Mk1 Leon's looks particularly the rear end and I thought the cabin was antiquated (well built though) - so I was never interested.
The new Leon is so different to the Mk1 that it may be too much of a change in appearance for some. For instance the latest Golf is practically the same as the previous model from some angles so won't upset the apple cart too much - the same could be said for the A3, Octavia, Focus, Astra etc etc.
Personally, I think the new Leon looks the dogs nuts, particularly the 'Sport' versions with the lower suspension and fat wheels. It's certainly does not look 'mainstream' which some of the previous cars mentioned do and this really appeals to me.
i like the exterior of the mk2 leon but the interior is awful , why oh why must they be so cheap looking ,why is every manufacturer using nasty plastics these days.
my mk1 squeeks and groans all over the place ,how hard is it to make a quiet solid car ?
i was excited when i saw the pics of the prototype nice interior touches but production is just plain naff and boring.
they need to do something really special with the fr`s and cupras not just some tacky white dials and different bumpers and alloys.
The Seat range seems to be changing sadly with many exclusions, like a saloon model i.e.the old Toledo, Arosa, and large people carrier like an Alhambra –each of these were unique and different.
Now, we find everything based on the Altea platform looking like a mini MPV. I like the Altea and think it will do well, but as far as the other new models are concerned just feel its more of the same thing with a different badge! I have the MK 1 Leon but at the moment totally unsure of the new Leon, its not so much my dislike of the New Leon (yes, I have seen it in the flesh –not driven it) and in many ways it exceeds the Mk 1 Leon in terms of interior space and layout especially rear legroom, but its just something about the whole platform base of the new Toledo, new Leon etc that’s not quite right, or doesn't do it for me.
Seat should rethink their entire range as the competition is hotting up…I mean look at how Vauxhall’s changed so much the current range IMHO looks so tempting …Astra VXR,
loadswine
25-11-2005, 10:39
The issue on the new Leon's looks is an interesting one.
It would be interesting to know how many of the people on this forum who really like, or have placed an order for, the new Leon actually own a Mk1?
I wasn't a fan of the Mk1 Leon's looks particularly the rear end and I thought the cabin was antiquated (well built though) - so I was never interested.
The new Leon is so different to the Mk1 that it may be too much of a change in appearance for some. For instance the latest Golf is practically the same as the previous model from some angles so won't upset the apple cart too much - the same could be said for the A3, Octavia, Focus, Astra etc etc.
Personally, I think the new Leon looks the dogs nuts, particularly the 'Sport' versions with the lower suspension and fat wheels. It's certainly does not look 'mainstream' which some of the previous cars mentioned do and this really appeals to me.
I agree, there is traditional resistance to any marked difference to a succesful car when its updated.
If the new Leon handles better than the Altea, then its my guess that it is better than the old one to drive. I had a Toledo 20vt for a couple of weeks before I got my Altea and was amazed at how much better the handling was with my new car.
The interior could be done better ,that's for sure, but don't mess with the seats as they are great. A mate of mine got a new Octavia the other day and I have to admit his interior looked pretty good...apart from the seats which looked as if they had been covered in material let over from a fat man's trousers!
If Seat are to survive in the UK though, I do reckon that they will have to bring out a stonking good Leon Cupra R . That sems to be the biggest focus on his forum and I'm sure brings some attraction to owning a Seat.
Though for me, I do actually like my car and am not sorry I bought it.
Guess im in the minority, cause i like the new Leon, but im still waiting for the Cupra version.
imho the low end leon mk2 looks horrid but if the cupra looks anything the concept pics and keeps the aggeressive styling that the current model has id def look into one.