View Full Version : Throttle bodies
Lucky_32
31-07-2002, 19:44
Ok lads (and ladies).
Anyone done the throttle body thing with a SEAT?
I'd just like to know how easy/difficult it to do?
May have some time later this year to have a go...
And yes this is a cue for a Badger5 plug (bought the Brembo 4 pots today :cheers: bargain :D)
And .... has anyone plumbed a supercharger into throttle bodies (i've seen an article in PVW where someone had done it)
PS yes i am mad...
ibizacupra
31-07-2002, 21:12
Originally posted by Lucky_32
Ok lads (and ladies).
Anyone done the throttle body thing with a SEAT?
I'd just like to know how easy/difficult it to do?
May have some time later this year to have a go...
And yes this is a cue for a Badger5 plug (bought the Brembo 4 pots today :cheers: bargain :D)
And .... has anyone plumbed a supercharger into throttle bodies (i've seen an article in PVW where someone had done it)
PS yes i am mad...
Cue RobT for a customers perspective. :D
Out T'bodies are pressure rated to 5 bar so forced induction applications are not a problem for the throttles. An inlet plenum would need to be fabricated tho.
To convert to throttle bodies, you also need to run a programmable ECU, which for us is a DTA system as its proven to be both easy to use, and very reliable and packed with features. I am still running mine from 1997 without a single ECU problem. (touch wood :p)
Throttle bodies are best suited to an already modified car, which has benefitted from a gas flowed cylinder head and cams. Unlike tirbo cars where you force the induction into the engine, the atmo 16v engines need to "want" to breathe to benefit from a more open less restrictive induction system.
In practical terms, you end up with 4 x 45mm throttles, one per cylinder, compared to the single or twin on a factory injected car.
There are 2 main types of throttle body, DCOE pattern sidedraft types which require an additional inlet manifold, and Direct to Head throttles (DTH). We favour the DTH ones as the installation is simpler, lighter, more direct and less restrctive. -Open the throttles and say hello to the valves. :D DTH throttles will work out slightly less expensive when compared to DCOE ones + manifold. Both systems work pretty well, and give very similar results. Some tuners would argue DTH throttles won't work as they're too short an induction track, but facts and an existing happy customer base, with dyno's :D proves they do provide significant gains. Personally I would say they're marginally better on top end being the more direct product, but the differences are very small. Either way, we supply both types so have no axe to grind either way. (we did help complete the development of the DTH bodies tho :))
RobT has done this himself, and got some very good gains.
I like the sound of them. Run open induction and waa haaayy :D Its awesome.
eg>> http://www.badger-5.go-plus.net/bin/greenjetta.WMV recorded at Goodwood earlier this year :D
Luv it !
regards
Bill
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Cue RobT for a customers perspective. :D
Hi
I fitted a set of DTH throttle bodies (from Bill) to my car at the start of this year. My engine was already modified with head and cams and was already running a programmable Lumenition ECU. My system is distributor triggered (N reg 1996 1.8L 16V originally but now 2L) and not crank triggered with wasted spark ignition like Bill's Jetta. Power was 180. After fitting the TB's and a remap, power went to 217 and drivability / tickover etc improved massively. I went with the Lumenition system rather than DTA simply because I have a very good Lumenition dealer 5 mins from my house.
I have found Bill to be very helpful, knowlegeable and down-to-earth and has not clamied anything rediculous for his products (refreshing- he suggested I may get in region of 37bhp and this is what I got. Bill's Jetta fitted with DTH TB's is known to go well at the track and does not have especially fancy chassis work - clearly the TB product works.
The only concern I have for this system on the Ibiza is the lack of room for air filters and the requirement for some system to stop the trumpet sock going down the rampipe and choking the engine (I had to make some myself) - the Ibiza is much tighter than the golf/jetta for room and I dont like ram pipe socks for filters - they work ok but I dont like them. I am still working on airboxes but are not getting very far due to the lack of room. Also, unlike DCOE-type systems, there is no obvious place to fasten a backplate for an airbox - spacers are really needed to clear the fuel rails and then shorter rampipes - but even then space would be tight.
The system is a good one however - I am pleased with mine and it makes a cracking noise !
Cheers
Rob
rob:RE room for box,just a thought would it be possible to drop the radiator to make room or install a shorter one,have seen the front end cut away to make room for longer trumpets ,looks a little nasty to me but worth a thought ???:cheers:
Lucky_32
01-08-2002, 19:34
Listened to the Jetta - very naughty....
Hmm not sure about that cutting thing...
Maybe something fabricated in Stainless steel for the air box with some Spotlight struts to steady it? Aluminium would get too hot.
I suppose some vents on the forward edge of the the bonnet like a WRC Cordoba would help (would need a shield to stop the socks getting wet)
DTH TB's have a shorter induction path.. does this mean that they would be a better fit in a Beezer or Cordi
The Cordoba's putting out 180bhp at the moment (gas flow, cams, vernier timing, etc) I'm not sure what ECU it is - It was an Oetinger Engine mod.
What's the difference between dizzy and crank triggering?
How much for the full D'd B'd set up.
A few grand...
I guess I'll have to buy a laptop as well :D
RobT - what's your Petrol Consumption like in normal driving?
ibizacupra
01-08-2002, 22:07
Originally posted by Lucky_32
Listened to the Jetta - very naughty....
Hmm not sure about that cutting thing...
Maybe something fabricated in Stainless steel for the air box with some Spotlight struts to steady it? Aluminium would get too hot.
I suppose some vents on the forward edge of the the bonnet like a WRC Cordoba would help (would need a shield to stop the socks getting wet)
DTH TB's have a shorter induction path.. does this mean that they would be a better fit in a Beezer or Cordi
The Cordoba's putting out 180bhp at the moment (gas flow, cams, vernier timing, etc) I'm not sure what ECU it is - It was an Oetinger Engine mod.
What's the difference between dizzy and crank triggering?
How much for the full D'd B'd set up.
A few grand...
I guess I'll have to buy a laptop as well :D
RobT - what's your Petrol Consumption like in normal driving?
If you would like me to send you details, drop me an email to bill@badger5.co.uk and I will send you the price list and tech specs.
Crank triggering is what ABF engines have to tell the ECU where Top Dead Centre is, as well as give the ECU an rpm input. Motronic use 60-2 tooth configuration as its input, via a toothed wheel and a crank sensor which is a reluctor sensor (usually).
When using crank triggering myself, either via the stock sensor and wheel or by retro fitting our sensor ans wheel, we are then able to run distributor-less wasted spark ignition system. This is a high power coil pack which gets triggered by the ECU, so the dissy, rotor arm and cap are all redundant. Its a better system IMHO.
I don't know about RobT, but on a run, my own Jetta gets 30mpg cruising at 70-80mph. It is as efficient as you want to map it.
If yours is an Oettinger upgrade, yours will be "chipped" by them so retains its stock ECU fundermantally.
regards
Bill
think bill ,was quoting low 30's for mpg,rob has said before and i would stand by it myself,why tune an engine to the tits and then worry about mpg?the cutting of the front end is done to the front end where the bonnet catch is(dunno what that bits called) but this is for long trumpets which badger 5 don't sell as they are DTH,sure bill or rob will clarify any other questions :cheers:
lol late as usual,we must have typed at the same time bill,me using one finger of course:cheers:
ibizacupra
01-08-2002, 23:02
Originally posted by jason
think bill ,was quoting low 30's for mpg,rob has said before and i would stand by it myself,why tune an engine to the tits and then worry about mpg?the cutting of the front end is done to the front end where the bonnet catch is(dunno what that bits called) but this is for long trumpets which badger 5 don't sell as they are DTH,sure bill or rob will clarify any other questions :cheers:
Hello..
cue Bill............. LOL
We do air horns (trumpets) in various lengths, but have opted for 120mm long ones for best power/torque. Short ones have compromised torque but this is very dependant on cams fitted.
We have some composite GRP curved air horns to play with now which go from round to rectangular and curve downward 90' .
Bill
hopkinsgm
01-08-2002, 23:44
Originally posted by Lucky_32
...Maybe something fabricated in Stainless steel for the air box with some Spotlight struts to steady it? Aluminium would get too hot...
Errrr - I know a few people who own Westfields/other Seven derivatives/kit cars with side exit exhausts. They all swear by aluminium silencers due to the fact that aluminium retains feck all heat. Firstly this makes getting out of the car a lot safer as there will be less risk of burning your legs. Secondly it makes the cabin a far more pleasant place to be (relatively) as the silencer is generally seperated from either the drivers' or passengers' (depends what engine car was built with) outboard thigh by a couple of inches, a bit of fibreglass and a thin ally panel. Thirdly it means you can handle the exhaust without risk of burnt fingers minutes after pulling up. And given the reliablity of some of these cars, that's a fecking godsend...
Basically, my point is that aluminium does not retain heat like steel does.
G
Originally posted by Lucky_32
RobT - what's your Petrol Consumption like in normal driving?
if rob can answer that I'll be disappointed with him.
Lucky_32
01-08-2002, 23:55
Interesting
Sent Email to Bill to get the low down.
Low 30's? That's what I get at the moment...
Hmmmm
On another note - saw the Zymol link - gone and bought a kit - should make it a bit more slipppery through the air..... ;)
Thanks for the info on the aluminium (should have thought about it - pans, kettles :rolleyes: )
The longer the horn the better - more torque please...
ibizacupra
02-08-2002, 08:22
Originally posted by Lucky_32
Interesting
Sent Email to Bill to get the low down.
Low 30's? That's what I get at the moment...
Hmmmm
On another note - saw the Zymol link - gone and bought a kit - should make it a bit more slipppery through the air..... ;)
Thanks for the info on the aluminium (should have thought about it - pans, kettles :rolleyes: )
The longer the horn the better - more torque please...
Just to clarify the mpg for you. The 30mpg is on a steady run on motorway at 70-80mph...
Hammer it and it drops like a stone.. For a track day like Castle Combe over say 8 sessions I will use nearly two complete tanks of fuel. you don't get power without fuel.. at least you have the option of the loud pedal.. :D
regards
Bill
Originally posted by ibizacupra
We have some composite GRP curved air horns to play with now which go from round to rectangular and curve downward 90' .
Bill
Hmm...straight into the alternator then ? Be nice to send them back over the top of the engine (cf. original 16V manifold) to a big airbox above the exhaust which is cold fed from the front. Winter project..
Cheers
Rob
ps - 30'ish mpg on motorway about 70-80mph but perhaps 10 when giving it serious pasty on track.
Originally posted by Lucky_32
Interesting
The longer the horn the better - more torque please...
Not 100% true - see Bills note above - I know of another jetta that was TB'd recently, not Bills, that had DTH bodies and short airhorns,50-60mm, and possibly 276 piper cams (but not confirmed) that gave 180 ftlb - more than mine on long 120mm horns.
It depends on your precise engine spec - generally longer induction length = more torque but not always..
Cheers
Rob
Lucky_32
02-08-2002, 17:36
The fuel consumption doesn't bother me tooo much the low 30's is what I get at 70-80 - Have had it down at 7mpg (ouch). Well it was a lovely cold morning...
The oetinger conversion gives more torque than standard but as you've all noted on other threads the 16v is not a torquey engine but comes in higher up.
Thought of a six speeder with quaife diff.
Any thought on that and whether to go for dog cut or syncro. Are the dog cut gears alot more noisy?
I suppose its always a good idea to maximise those power gains you get when putting the power to the wheels.
Anyone fitted the throttle bodies themselves?
Biggest job I did was stripping down the front suspension on a triumph spitfire (and yes I did get it back together again..)
I have also stripped down SU' carbs but that's hardly rocket science.
DO I sound like a big chicken?
:p
hopkinsgm
03-08-2002, 00:53
Originally posted by Lucky_32
Thought of a six speeder with quaife diff.
Any thought on that and whether to go for dog cut or syncro. Are the dog cut gears alot more noisy?
I suppose its always a good idea to maximise those power gains you get when putting the power to the wheels.
I can kinda see whee you're coming from - minimising transmission losses makes a whole lot of sense, and an LSD such as the Quaife ATB (assume this is the diff you want?) will make a significant improvement when trying to get power down to road surface.
Having spent Wednesday this week at Silverstone in a Westfield with a Quaife 6 speed sequential dog box, i'll warn you that a dog box is NOT subtle. With the clutch to the floor, the entire car shudders as you engage 1st - that's how vicious the gear engagement is. You need to hammer the 'box about or you end up getting stuck between gears. In the case of this particular Westie, I was involved in the changeover from a Ford 5 speed to the Quaife. The new 'box killed a brand new regular clutch off inside a couple of days. It really needs a proper race clutch to back it up. Dogs tend to wear out quite quickly too - much quicker than synchros - making a dog box maintenance intensive. Like gearbox rebuilds every 5000 to 10000 miles. All of which is fine in a race car but complete overkill for road use.
G
Lucky_32
03-08-2002, 09:11
Thanks for the info - nearly got an OMP clutch too but a bit of overkill on the run to Sainburys - looks like 6 speed synco and quaife diff...
ibizacupra
03-08-2002, 16:15
Originally posted by Lucky_32
Thanks for the info - nearly got an OMP clutch too but a bit of overkill on the run to Sainburys - looks like 6 speed synco and quaife diff...
Just wondering why you would want a 6spd box?
Closer ratios more gear changes........
Lower geared ratios will hamper low speed traction off the line etc... Leon owners seem to always talk of 1st gear traction problems, where as I rarely have these myself in my 5spd box.
Longer ratios and a good torque spread vs shorter ratios, more gear changes and traction issues...
Just a though.
My Jetta suffers traction problems in 1st gear after it was modded for a lower FD ratio... Acceleration through the box tho is much faster, but has lower top speed (135 not 146). This config would be no use to my Ibiza tho as its torque would light up the tyres in the 1st 3 gears I would predict.
regards
Bill
Lucky_32
04-08-2002, 16:48
I wanted to the change the ratio's - I actually want a longer first and second - the rest are fine - and 6th as an overdrive...
Does that make sense?
ibizacupra
05-08-2002, 08:37
Originally posted by Lucky_32
I wanted to the change the ratio's - I actually want a longer first and second - the rest are fine - and 6th as an overdrive...
Does that make sense?
Longer 1st and 2nd does make sense yes.. :)
regards
Bill
Originally posted by Lucky_32
The fuel consumption doesn't bother me tooo much the low 30's is what I get at 70-80 - Have had it down at 7mpg (ouch). Well it was a lovely cold morning...
The oetinger conversion gives more torque than standard but as you've all noted on other threads the 16v is not a torquey engine but comes in higher up.
Thought of a six speeder with quaife diff.
Any thought on that and whether to go for dog cut or syncro. Are the dog cut gears alot more noisy?
I suppose its always a good idea to maximise those power gains you get when putting the power to the wheels.
Anyone fitted the throttle bodies themselves?
Biggest job I did was stripping down the front suspension on a triumph spitfire (and yes I did get it back together again..)
I have also stripped down SU' carbs but that's hardly rocket science.
DO I sound like a big chicken?
:p
Fitting the throttle bodies is easy, what is considerably more difficult is making a wiring loom and fitting / mapping the ECU. IMO, unless you are a competant auto electrician, this is best left to people who know better and the mapping should be done at a rolling road - £250 for the day.
Once you have the TB's set up, look at the power and torque curves, and from theoretical calculations using the gear ratio's, FD ratio and tyre sizes, you can see if your gearing is suitable for the power curves you have. If not then alter gear ratio's appropriately. This is what I did, right or wrong it made sense to me.
An ATB diff is always useful and a good fit if you are doing gearbox work anyway. Stay well clear of dog boxes, or straight cut, for road use - very noisy and as Glyn said above, lots of maintenance required.
Have a good time then G ?
Cheers
Rob
I think the three things that cause problems with space for the airbox are the radiator, alternator and the metal panel across the front where the clip for the bonnet stand is.
Cutting a bit out of the metal panel should solve the last one, though it may not look too tidy.
If your Ibiza DOES NOT have air conditioning then the radiator can be dropped and moved forward, which also makes it easier to drop the alternator down a bit (because it will probably come forward too).
If your Ibiza DOES have air conditioning then the air con radiator is in front of the main radiator, preventing that being moved forwards, and the air con pump is below the alternator. I'm sure something can be sorted out, but I don't know what yet. You could always take the air conditioning out!
Neil P
ibizacupra
06-08-2002, 14:29
Originally posted by neilp
I think the three things that cause problems with space for the airbox are the radiator, alternator and the metal panel across the front where the clip for the bonnet stand is.
Cutting a bit out of the metal panel should solve the last one, though it may not look too tidy.
If your Ibiza DOES NOT have air conditioning then the radiator can be dropped and moved forward, which also makes it easier to drop the alternator down a bit (because it will probably come forward too).
If your Ibiza DOES have air conditioning then the air con radiator is in front of the main radiator, preventing that being moved forwards, and the air con pump is below the alternator. I'm sure something can be sorted out, but I don't know what yet. You could always take the air conditioning out!
Neil P
Are you speaking from experience now then Neil? :p
Throttle bodied up now and running I hope. :D
C U Thursday maybe? or Wednesday perhaps at the Club Gti meet?
Bill
neil has a cupra 2 (with air con)giving you a bit of a problem neil?rip it out;)
Originally posted by ibizacupra
Are you speaking from experience now then Neil? :p
Hi Bill
I've had a few conversations with our favourite friendly, "I don't speak badly about anybody" tuner about it. :p
Don't think I'll be at Bristol tonight, see you on Thursday,
Neil P
Lucky_32
07-08-2002, 18:36
Ok guy's thanks for the info.
:cheers:
Definately going for them - likely to get TSR to fit the the Badger 5 kit (plus a Quaiffe LSD) - got a mate who lives 5 mins up the road from them. Will stick with 5 speeder for moment with a short shift conversion.
Now just need to stripp the interior....
:rolleyes: