View Full Version : Awesome RR Leaderboard - Show NOS results or not? POL
awesomeade
03-03-2006, 08:43
Right, this should settle it :)
I had some complaints by email that NOS runs should be removed from the leaderboard, now a few people have posted that they should be included... we cant please anyone so will allow you to vote on which way it goes - cant be fairer than that :)
ibizacupra
03-03-2006, 08:50
thats done then. I voted, 1st vote and 100% agreement...
case closed.. LOL
(I'll get me coat)
if this comes out as no, it just goes to show what a load of whinging glory boys a lot of the turbo pilots are out there.
ibizacupra
03-03-2006, 08:59
see 200% agreement already, tis a done deal - LOL
I voted yes - so who voted no?:ban:
someone who's a bad looser
I voted yes. For me nos counts.
There isnt a who gives a flying toss option :p
There isnt a who gives a flying toss option :p
Not in this poll, though.;)
In my opinion, its not whether your a winner or a loser in the battle of the bhp's, its simply how 'BIG' is your wallet. Especially when your throwing the big tubby conversions into play on a list.
If it really does bother people about where their car comes in a scale, maybe splitting it up into classes would be better, big tubby conversions class, nos cars class, and then an only remapped cars class, for an example.
Maybe its something we can introduce on the website, working alongside the readers rides too. Only a suggestion of course.
Ruddmeister
03-03-2006, 12:58
Maybe its something we can introduce on the website, working alongside the readers rides too. Only a suggestion of course.
I voted Yeeeeeeeeeeees
Sounds Cool Z-boyd, But Jabba RR figures don't count :cartman:
(line baited and ready for the first catch of the day:cartman: )
Maybe its something we can introduce on the website, working alongside the readers rides too. Only a suggestion of course.
The dyno lottery bit would have a lot to play in that, unless you could do a leader board of the cars on different days/dynos.
It'd be a good idea if could somehow show the different mods and stages of mods though, so peeps could easily see, for example, the difference that the Miltek made on yours, then Stage 2, then FMIC...
One possible way is to throw in the MSA power levelling multipliers into effect:
compared to normally aspirated cars of equivalent CC
turbo's: /1.7
diesels x1.7
turbo diesels equivelent
rotary /2.5
etc etc
Will find out the exact multipliers from Blue Book at home tonight
ibizacupra
03-03-2006, 15:32
One possible way is to throw in the MSA power levelling multipliers into effect:
compared to normally aspirated cars of equivalent CC
turbo's: /1.7
diesels x1.7
turbo diesels equivelent
rotary /2.5
etc etc
Will find out the exact multipliers from Blue Book at home tonight
1.5 mate for tubbies.. is'nt it? (is in Combe regs)
there are championships where its 1.7 for sure, and others where its 2.0 (Lydden Hill SEMSEC for egs)...will check MSA Blue Book for official position tonight
power or torque / cc with normalisation with multiplier.....thats 'fair'
if it was 1.7.......
400hp turbo, 1860cc = 0.215hp/cc
200hp atmo, [1984 / 1.7] cc = 0.17hp/cc
230hp atmo, [1984 / 1.7] cc = 0.20hp/cc
250hp atmo, 0.214hp/cc
if it was 2.0........
200hp atmo, [1984 / 2.0] cc = 0.201hp/cc
220hp atmo, = 0.222hp/cc
Infact 213.28hp would be the atmo equivalent
so....I would say that getting 213hp out of a 2L atmo engine was as hard as getting 400hp out of a '1.8' T so a multiplier of 2.0 seems fair to me
thoughts ?
Cheres
Rob
ibizacupra
03-03-2006, 18:50
there are championships where its 1.7 for sure, and others where its 2.0 (Lydden Hill SEMSEC for egs)...will check MSA Blue Book for official position tonight
power or torque / cc with normalisation with multiplier.....thats 'fair'
if it was 1.7.......
400hp turbo, 1860cc = 0.215hp/cc
200hp atmo, [1984 / 1.7] cc = 0.17hp/cc
230hp atmo, [1984 / 1.7] cc = 0.20hp/cc
250hp atmo, 0.214hp/cc
if it was 2.0........
200hp atmo, [1984 / 2.0] cc = 0.201hp/cc
220hp atmo, = 0.222hp/cc
Infact 213.28hp would be the atmo equivalent
so....I would say that getting 213hp out of a 2L atmo engine was as hard as getting 400hp out of a '1.8' T so a multiplier of 2.0 seems fair to me
thoughts ?
Cheres
Rob
so even allowing for the 1.7 multiplier, atmo's have no chance.
Sprint & Hill Climb Vehicles:- 2005 book (as I dont have 2006!)
L10 regulation.
10.3.1 forced induction equivalence 1.4
10.3.2 rotary engine equivalence 1.5. Forced induction rotary equivalance (14 x 1.5)=2.1
Also section E
12.4.1, coefficient will be 1.7 unless stated otherwise in Specific Techincal Regulations.
Castle Combes Saloons being 1.5 coefficient
varies a bit does'nt it.
:confused:
so....I would say that getting 213hp out of a 2L atmo engine was as hard as getting 400hp out of a '1.8' T so a multiplier of 2.0 seems fair to me
thoughts ?
Cheers
Rob
Its just as hard (read expensive) getting 400bhp out of the 1781 motor as it is getting yours to 210bhp+ - as we both know to our cost :)
cordobabrendy
03-03-2006, 19:20
why not have a few class leaderboards like the old clubgti mag had for 1/4 milers,
ie 1.0-1.4 n/a petrol 1.4-2.9 petrol n/a
1.0-2.0 forced ind petrol
1.4-whatever there is in dervs now (2.5?)
then 4wd
and also the animal class, nos, turbo and sc/d combined etc.
ibizacupra
03-03-2006, 19:25
just leave it as is FFS... have the spec and the power figures listed so peeps can see what does what.
so much simpler.
Its not a competition is it?
just leave it as is FFS... have the spec and the power figures listed so peeps can see what does what.
so much simpler.
Its not a competition is it?
Don't you think they should at least have the leader in each group shown in larger, bolder, more colourful type, Bill? ;)
cordobabrendy
03-03-2006, 19:40
just leave it as is FFS... have the spec and the power figures listed so peeps can see what does what.
so much simpler.
Its not a competition is it?
with several classes though bill it would be easier to search, for example, someone with a tuned 1.4 16v arosa could make, say 130 bhp, that wouldnt show on the full "leaderboard"tm but is still a significant little power hike for a car its size and would/could be the inspiration other 1.4 16v owners need to get their asses into gear.
varies a bit does'nt it.
:confused:
Its just as hard (read expensive) getting 400bhp out of the 1781 motor as it is getting yours to 210bhp+ - as we both know to our cost :)
It varies a lot - seen everything from 1.4-2.0 as multipliers, huge difference.
Agreed getting 400hp out of (what starts out as) 1781T is hard and expensive. And keeping them running....thats another story. Equally, there are not very many 2L valvers out there actually above 200hp. So if we were to go down a route of 'equivalence', a 2.0 multiplier actually seems quite 'fair'. If that multiplier was less than 2.0, I doubt we would see very many atmo engines at all coming close to the turbos as these would in effect be £10K+ low milage pukka race engines. I'm not saying 'equivalence' rules are a good thing or not, its just one way of comparing levels of tuning.
It would be interesting to compare like with like, who's got the most powerful engine of each type etc, and what mods do what they say on the tin
And who really cares anyway, I want to see the flame spitting hooge turbo nitrous wagons doing their thing and at a RR, quite rightly they should be top of the heap.
Why not abandon RRs as a measure altogether? Laptime on a certain circuit in the dry should be enough? After all, the question is : Is the car, in the hands of the owner, quick or not compared with peers? I can see that this might be controversial as it requires some of the gobshites out there to drive instead of just talking about it or quoting numbers...
ibizacupra
04-03-2006, 06:07
Don't you think they should at least have the leader in each group shown in larger, bolder, more colourful type, Bill? ;)
Table it... and peeps can sort it out for themselves... LOL
like I care.
are peeps so desperate to be top of the table or summat?
[B)]
ibizacupra
04-03-2006, 06:08
Why not abandon RRs as a measure altogether? Laptime on a certain circuit in the dry should be enough? After all, the question is : Is the car, in the hands of the owner, quick or not compared with peers? I can see that this might be controversial as it requires some of the gobshites out there to drive instead of just talking about it or quoting numbers...
hehe.... nice grenade you chucked in there Glenn
{sits back and waits}
:lol:
Why not abandon RRs as a measure altogether? Laptime on a certain circuit in the dry should be enough? After all, the question is : Is the car, in the hands of the owner, quick or not compared with peers? I can see that this might be controversial as it requires some of the gobshites out there to drive instead of just talking about it or quoting numbers...
One of the best ideas i`ve read in a long time:lol:
If you want to know who has the fastest most powerful car go to brunters and see who can achieve the fastest speed.
Oh shit just remembered thats already been done and my car was the fastest with the most power.:rolleyes: :D
If you want to know who has the fastest most powerful car go to brunters and see who can achieve the fastest speed.
Oh shit just remembered thats already been done and my car was the fastest with the most power.:rolleyes: :D
It`s that man again:lol:
this thread is about max power on a RR
the biggest factor to get a good laptime is the driver, and thats a different thread.
this thread is about max power on a RR
the biggest factor to get a good laptime is the driver, and thats a different thread.
Exactly, the whole point of The rolling road is to measure power. I just love all the Bt haters. They make me smile.
what makes me smile is when people who think they are top of the heap find out they arn't and proceed to throw their toys out of the pram, (a bit of gentlemenly conduct wouldn't go amiss guys), of course the BT boys will beat the LT boys at a RR, you would expext this to be true, and thes mods are 'allowed', what I dont understand is that other mods, like NOS, are now being brought into question
I agree it makes what it makes be it nos, race fuel, Bt, flux capacitor, power is power. Nos counts for me.
well 8 people think its unfair, I love to know why, any one of you care to enlighten me ?
Well it looks like nos counts by the votes posted.
The NOS results have been reinstated on the Awesome RR Leaderboard :thumbup:
Seat
Car Owner Date run Power Link
1 Ibiza Cupra IHI Bill Brockbank 29/12/2005 360.80 Link
2 Ibiza Cupra IHI Custard Cupra 22/10/2005 322.72 Link
3 Ibiza 1.8T (NOS) Jamie Woodward 10/12/2005 289.53 Link
4 Ibiza 1.8T IHI Gary Coverdale 29/12/2005 282.31 Link
5 Leon Cupra R (NOS) Mitchy 22/10/2005 266.22 Link
great:D
but the more i think about it, they could have a nos table, with mixed makes and so on, dont think many people go BT and nos so no longer any conflict:shrug: (i might even be no.1 then)
more it goes on the less i care now to be honest,:hide: but would be nice for any of the no voters to put forward their reasons for their vote.
and would they object to anyone using other fuel additives such as cv turbo octain boost ect....mmmm:think: how many would be left then:whistle:
when gary gets back up to awsome me and mitchy will drop down anyway, im sure the ihi leon will make its way up there soon so its :worship: :givein: :runaway:
LOL
how about a torque league:hide: :whistle:
i'll stop now
414lbft for me. Im sure we'd be at the top of the leaderboard didgy.:p ;)
Will up my jetting to 75hp for next showdown to see what the car can take. Been running safely on 50hp for a while now. 284 whp and 397lbft are my best results at awesome so far. Unfortunately they list my 266 whp and 414lbft run.
Whens the next outing anyway?
Im not really understanding the complaints about nos? Any of the guys that voted no, care to express why nos isn't a valid option of tuning a car and extracting the best bhp out of it? Why is it cheating?
So far ive spent around £2000 on my nos install so its not exactly a cheap fix. Okay its not rivalling the £6000 spent on a BT upgrade but whinging thats it not valid is silly IMO.
cordobabrendy
04-03-2006, 12:00
I voted no but explained that i think that that there should be classes, I didnt mean not at all though just that its not necessarily tied to one specific engine type, ie it can be used with tdi's, Petrol Forced ind and N/a motors.
Its a fairly quick mod but for the interest of people seeing what their car can do with a better turbo etc then nitrous should maybe in its own class, maybe have an overall board too though, keep everyone happy?
I am sure we will get a chance to go on Awesomes rollers at some time, did anyone else know club Gti are having a rr'd day at jabba in the next 2-3 months.
414lbft for me. Im sure we'd be at the top of the leaderboard didgy.:p ;)
LOL forgot about yours;)
this thread is about max power on a RR
the biggest factor to get a good laptime is the driver, and thats a different thread.
In the context of this thread, you're right. I was actually thinking of your car when I posted. I'm becoming increasingly exasperated with this 'cars are rubbish unless they've got big numbers' school of thought that seems to have become the norm. Cars like yours will be overlooked or dismissed because they've 'only' got ~200bhp when in fact they're rapid machines with some excellent engineering thought put into them.
LOL@ Gary, I wasn't referring to you BTW or anyone in particular, just getting annoyed (especially after lots of beer!) with the "17-yr-old-in-RS-Turdo" mentality that's got into VWs over the last 10 years.
i think lots of people are mislead about nos and the people who use it.
anyone who thinks its fast and furious will be disappointed (i mean who goes flat out in 5th then changes down to fourth to go faster!!)sorry where was i,
not everyone who uses it has a 1.2 nova and slaps on a 50 shot of nos.
i have worked hard and put a lot of money into the ko3s route and all the bits to go with it to get an everyday usable amount of (awsome RR)208 whp.This to me is just the right amount for the area i live in, country roads and hardly any straights, so any more power would be hard to justify with children being in the car 90% of driving time.
i thought long and hard about going the ihi,gt28 way but its not just the initial payment of getting it,its the amount of money i see people with it having to spend to keep the car 100% and i dont want a car that begins to deteriate and runs less than perfect and not have the money to put it right.
so i went for nos and after learning quite a bit about it had it fitted for 1/4 mile drags and RR ect.Be honest,which would you like to see on a RR, a ko3s or a ko3s with nos on it (how many would be wishing it would blow up, just to see it)most id imagine.
nos is a quick power boost,but dont think that its cheap,with fitting and controllers,gas and rr sessions to check air/fuel ratios its set me back around £1600 so far and thats without £800 for the new clutch to cope with power hike.
kind of lost what i wanted to say now except if people think nos is cheating then fine,i'll buy the coffee and have it waiting for you at the finish line:whistle:
In the context of this thread, you're right. I was actually thinking of your car when I posted. I'm becoming increasingly exasperated with this 'cars are rubbish unless they've got big numbers' school of thought that seems to have become the norm. Cars like yours will be overlooked or dismissed because they've 'only' got ~200bhp when in fact they're rapid machines with some excellent engineering thought put into them.
LOL@ Gary, I wasn't referring to you BTW or anyone in particular, just getting annoyed (especially after lots of beer!) with the "17-yr-old-in-RS-Turdo" mentality that's got into VWs over the last 10 years.
I know what you mean and thanks for the thought. However, I'm not interested in winning RR's, they mean nothing to me personally, its fun to see the big output motors though and have a chat. The storey would be very different indeed at a trackday or sprint but unfortunately we dont get to go on many of these as a club so comparisons are hard to make - I do know there would be a lot of excuses though lol
I know what your saying a day at Brunters and a bit of vmax would soon have the excuses being bashed about.
nitrous is great imo had it on mine for 3 years,it's even better when you add a big turbo into the equation to:funk: i love doing 1/4 mile racing so nitrous is great for that! i'm crap at going round corners and too scared to put it on a track:)
I know what your saying a day at Brunters and a bit of vmax would soon have the excuses being bashed about.
There's no skill or car setup required at Brunty......this is no different to a RR as far as I can see......I was thinking something more like Cadwell Park, or Oulton Park, or Loton park....something with bends and walls and big trees and rocks.....somewhere where straight line speed means shag all......different kettle of fish entirely and somehwhere a well driven 8V would have every chance against a heavier and less balanced turbo
I dont know the 202mph GT2 Ruf tuned Porsche when i was at Brunters certainly needed some setting up to manage 202mph and have the potential to exit the bottom bend at 140mph. Its like saying to a world speed record holder thats his achievement does not count because there was no corners and he does not partake in motorsport.
Its two different sides of the same coin, but still the same coin.
I dont know the 202mph GT2 Ruf tuned Porsche when i was at Brunters certainly needed some setting up to manage 202mph and have the potential to exit the bottom bend at 140mph. Its like saying to a world speed record holder thats his achievement does not count because there was no corners and he does not partake in motorsport.
Its two different sides of the same coin, but still the same coin.
Have you been to Brunters recently ? you kept that quiet. And now you are comparing 160mph with land speed records.....doode give it a rest. Back to the topic/point of the thread please.
ibizacupra
07-03-2006, 08:17
I am sure we will get a chance to go on Awesomes rollers at some time, did anyone else know club Gti are having a rr'd day at jabba in the next 2-3 months.
Wonder how that will go if any low cars turn up... if its the new rollers.
ibizacupra
07-03-2006, 08:22
i think lots of people are mislead about nos and the people who use it.
anyone who thinks its fast and furious will be disappointed (i mean who goes flat out in 5th then changes down to fourth to go faster!!)sorry where was i,
not everyone who uses it has a 1.2 nova and slaps on a 50 shot of nos.
i have worked hard and put a lot of money into the ko3s route and all the bits to go with it to get an everyday usable amount of (awsome RR)208 whp.This to me is just the right amount for the area i live in, country roads and hardly any straights, so any more power would be hard to justify with children being in the car 90% of driving time.
i thought long and hard about going the ihi,gt28 way but its not just the initial payment of getting it,its the amount of money i see people with it having to spend to keep the car 100% and i dont want a car that begins to deteriate and runs less than perfect and not have the money to put it right.
so i went for nos and after learning quite a bit about it had it fitted for 1/4 mile drags and RR ect.Be honest,which would you like to see on a RR, a ko3s or a ko3s with nos on it (how many would be wishing it would blow up, just to see it)most id imagine.
nos is a quick power boost,but dont think that its cheap,with fitting and controllers,gas and rr sessions to check air/fuel ratios its set me back around £1600 so far and thats without £800 for the new clutch to cope with power hike.
kind of lost what i wanted to say now except if people think nos is cheating then fine,i'll buy the coffee and have it waiting for you at the finish line:whistle:
An occasional shot of NOS is'nt comparible to a BT tho.... its in a bottle and has a short lifespan... so BT cars which use their power on track for example (and I dont mean drag track) are the only practical way of higher power levels.. to the limit of available traction anyhows. Talking 2wd here.
I would like to see a NOS equipped car put up with the heavy load and track use mine has put up with over the last 4 years. (excluding exhaust housing failures :doh: ) - Wonder how many bottle refills that would have equated to. :think:
Q. How much on gas time do you get for a bottle? - just curious.
ibizacupra
07-03-2006, 08:24
I know what your saying a day at Brunters and a bit of vmax would soon have the excuses being bashed about.
LOL, been there & done that. :lol:
Vmax does'nt make for an all round car tho. Corners and lack of.
And the wear and tear from repeated Vmax runs is alarming as you know.
Imagine a NOS car doing Vmax runs like you did @ Pistonheads...
ibizacupra
07-03-2006, 08:26
162mph actually Doode.
"fastest proven ibiza" - lest we not forget :)
hi bill,on a 50 shot you would get about 10mins out of a 11lb bottle but with a 100shot about 5 mins! £50 a refill:headhurt: so probably a few laps round coombe? for drag racing it's good though as you will get many runs in! also good for RR days as it gives big torque figures:p i suppose you could use nos on a track day car like yours bill but just use it for the straights just to give you that bit extra when overtaking? your engine would definately take it and it doesn't seem to put anymore stress through the turbo(touches wood;) )
"fastest proven ibiza" - lest we not forget :)
Its easy to forget, i dont think i mentioned it enough.
Note to myself " Must try harder".:p
ibizacupra
07-03-2006, 11:09
hi bill,on a 50 shot you would get about 10mins out of a 11lb bottle but with a 100shot about 5 mins! £50 a refill:headhurt: so probably a few laps round coombe? for drag racing it's good though as you will get many runs in! also good for RR days as it gives big torque figures:p i suppose you could use nos on a track day car like yours bill but just use it for the straights just to give you that bit extra when overtaking? your engine would definately take it and it doesn't seem to put anymore stress through the turbo(touches wood;) )
I think its illegal on circuits, temping as it might be for a little "extra" go on a straight... kinda like a "boost" button.
Good for induction temps too... massive cooling effect.
~400bhp and fwd is traction limiting already... Dont have your 4wd to help that tho sadly.
I see the NOS results have been removed again. :confused: :confused: :confused:
still showing on there to me:confused:
Seat
Car Owner Date run Power (bhp) Link
1 Ibiza Cupra IHI Bill Brockbank 29/12/2005 360.80 Link
2 Ibiza Cupra IHI Custard Cupra 22/10/2005 322.72 Link
3 Ibiza 1.8T IHI Gary Coverdale 29/12/2005 282.31 Link
4 Leon Cupra R Awesome's LCR 22/10/2005 257.01 Link
5 Leon Cupra R Mark Forbes 22/10/2005
Try clearing your internet cache?