View Full Version : Awesome Gti & SCC
LordStorm
26-04-2006, 11:40
Mark aka ZBoyd can you make this a sticky please?
I have seen the slanderous comments which have been made by the members of SCC towards AwesomeGti and have repeatedly tried to voice my opinion to put across the excellent service I have received.
Three times I have been banned until:
"Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here"
Alas no more - until I go home tonight!!!
The comments which have been made are absolutely slanderous and without proof and I'm sure everyone else who has been to Awesome will agree they are totally incorrect.
All the staff at Awesome have been professional in every way and also provided a sound knowledge base and unbiased opinion no matter what product they are providing.
It was Marks opinion that I should try Revo before APR and it was indeed Mark that advised me to talk to everyone and every company before making my decision - a decision that is relatively expensive.
I decided on APR because of the very courtesy, professionalism and service I had received by AGti previous to this decision. Plus they are just round the corner so convenience is everything!!!
Anyway I have absolutely no complaints and do not know anyone outside of the SCC group that do. And anyone that is a member of SCC and reads the comments posted, as the ones that offer a difference of opinion have been removed, so not to dilute the slander. Have to bear in mind the maturity and validity of those comments based around the very method in which they are displayed and controlled.
Craig
I have only dealt with them a couple of times, myself and my mate, Turbobanana on here, and received nothing but great service and help from all at Awesome.
Top place :D
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 12:48
i had a load of trouble with said furom and think that they are a bunch of :w4nk: :w4nk: ,i to can only speek of awesome with great respect as they have helped me out no end and even last week when stuck in the hard shoulder of a german motorway they gave me advise and wished me good luck at getin my car home.
Said furom needs a kick up its arse and head removin from arse as i got bombarded with pm's from the admin for sayin hellow to a friend in a thread which surely is not a problem,it isnt on this site.i was told this is not a chat room and if i wanted to speak to friends then i should sign up to a proper chat room not one for enthusiasts,,,,,
SO HERE I STAND WITH YOU CRAIG :censored: :censored: arses
top lads at awesome gti no more to say
TimBarratt
26-04-2006, 13:02
I wonder what Awesome think about it all. Its got to be really bad for their business.
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 13:03
I wonder what Awesome think about it all. Its got to be really bad for their business.cant do them any favours really can it
We have a rule, we think it works pretty well , and me and the other admins stick to it.
It goes a little like this, though its always subject to interpretation, as our rules are merely guidelines, and as the admin team we ultimately decide when enough is enough:
Flame Baits vs 'Freedom of Speech'.
We know that our rules on warnings and bans (see rules if you dont), may lead some to think that this should encompass posters who have repeatedly posted what some here consider to be 'flame bait'!!
eg: Dealers, Tuners and other companies.
They are there to be adored and scorned, admired and admonished, revered and questioned constantly. But, there is a fine line between scorning/admonishing/questioning and defaming/wrongly accusing/slandering.
It's not always easy to know where that fine line lies, nor is it easy to always make a unanimously agreed judgement call on whether something falls under what we would constitute as allowable and what we would constitute as not.
It's easy to know what to do when something is - in our view - blatantly illegal or a mere flame-bait. We will simply delete it.
It's easy to know what to do when something is - in our view - within the acceptable realm of speaking up. We simply let it exist here, regardless of whether we think it's ridiculous or ludicrous.
But, in a case of doubt, it goes down to your own level of tolerance. Personally, in such cases, we prefer to be lenient and allow these thoughts to be heard.
There is a price for that, though; those who elect to take upon themselves a crusade on a particularly controversial issue should bear in mind that they themselves are bound to be scorned back for their views.
You cannot stand in the city square and tell everyone they are blind fools (and telling all Joe Bloggs fans that he's the worst dealer ever, or telling Fred Smith fans that he's nothing but a cheater, is exactly that - either way, you are telling those fans that they are blind fools) and do not expect it to go unnoticed. If you get a tomato in your face, you should also ask yourself if you didn't ask for it.
Having said that, it should be made clear that counter-attacking a poster is different to personally insulting someone. Telling someone that his post is ridiculous, or even that he's a liar (if you can prove that!) is not the same as telling someone "you are an idiot who should be shot to death". We will tolerate to a large extent the first; We won't tolerate to any extent the second, that is abuse plain and simple.
Basically we always try to remain as neutral as possible, we don't take sides, we don't favour one tuner over another, and we try to be as fair as possible to the views of everybody, a difficult task, hey some would even say an impossible one!!
Were here to uphold the forum karma, and if some people want to turn away from using a constructive critical approach, and instead using an ultamately damaging rant, then they become a problem to forum harmony, and as a result, will find their posts quickly deleted.
That's our policy, what other forums choose to do is upto them.
Trumpetman21
26-04-2006, 13:49
I'd like to add my bit to this also.
I was one of a small number of (now ex) SCC members who tried to bring a bit of neutrality and balance into a ridiculously one-sided 'debate' (if you could call it that) across 2 separate posts and subsequently had those posts deleted and also received a plethora of PM's from the administrator accusing me of receiving freebies for not attacking AGTI.:confused:
Shortly thereafter I was 'banned' :banned: from SCC, presumably for not supporting the administrator's rather dictatorial viewpoint, and there were a number of other posts similar to mine that were deleted....SCC's viewpoint is extremely biased (we all have our suspicions why) so before anyone believes what they have read over there please bear this in mind.:think:
Thank you.:clap:
LordStorm
26-04-2006, 14:08
I initially started this thread as a way to counter the negativity created by another forum because Awesome have always treated myself and I believe other SCN members fairly.
This is not to be used as an anti-SCC thread and to voice SCN members annoyance and irritations caused by SCC as this dilutes the meaning and intentions originally sought.
Please do not do this as it makes you just as bad as them and therefore reduces the maturity of content within this excellent forum.
Craig
Trumpetman21
26-04-2006, 14:28
I initially started this thread as a way to counter the negativity created by another forum because Awesome have always treated myself and I believe other SCN members fairly.
This is not to be used as an anti-SCC thread and to voice SCN members annoyance and irritations caused by SCC as this dilutes the meaning and intentions originally sought.
Please do not do this as it makes you just as bad as them and therefore reduces the maturity of content within this excellent forum.
Craig
:confused:
Not trying to turn it into an anti-anyone thread mate, just telling the facts straight & true as it happened....I'm just letting people know the background to the story.
LordStorm
26-04-2006, 14:32
Yes I know - " had a load of trouble with said furom and think that they are a bunch of ,"
This is what I am meaning, we don't have to flame them, they belong to an inferior forum, we know it, they know it - why broadcast it.
Trumpetman21
26-04-2006, 14:34
Ah, that's OK then - thought your initial broadside was aimed at me....
I'll make this clear right now..
You're not coming on here & dragging your arguement out 'again'
As ZBOYD points out - it's at our descretion what stays, not your interpretation.
AwesomeMark
26-04-2006, 14:49
Hi Everybody
I would just like to say, Awesome are totally aware of the situation that is happening on another Forum.
The Management of Awesome have decided its unproffessional to rise to this Childish behaviour (please read threads and decide for yourselves) We pride ourselves on our commitment to the market, the quality of products and the customer service we offer.
If anybody has issues with the Service that they have recieved or not happy with any of our product's including APR, please contact Awesome directly so we can personally address any issues.
Unfortunately due to circumstances we were unable to defend the situation on that paticular forum because of our removal of advertising. Other forum members who expressed positive comments towards Awesome/APR have been removed and have been banned from posting.
We are really sorry for any inconvenience caused to our loyal customer base, and can assure you of our total commitment at all times.
The Truth will always shine through
Regards
Mark Ash (General Manager)
Awesome 0161 7760777
LordStorm
26-04-2006, 15:27
Can you believe that Simon B from SCC has just phoned my work, complaining to my boss that I am being slanderous and abusive on his forum website and if this continues he is going to phone the Police.
Asking why I am doing this in work time.
Hahaha are their no limit to this imbecile!
Can you believe that Simon B from SCC has just phoned my work, complaining to my boss that I am being slanderous and abusive on his forum website and if this continues he is going to phone the Police.
Asking why I am doing this in work time.
Hahaha are their no limit to this imbecile!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
That rings a bell from about 3 years ago :think:
LordStorm
26-04-2006, 15:36
I hope hes going to Oulton Park.
Just read through the message board on the other site and I can't believe what has been said. Some of the comments on there are terrible towards Awesome GTi, and I find it very strange that there are no comments from people who have recieved good service from them. With Awesome's comments being removed, this is definitely not fair.
I will definitely give my backing to Awsome GTi who I used to service my old Ibiza, fit my suspension, and even got my gearbox sorted out after it blew up big style. Was very impressed with their service, the staff and just the whole general experience that they offered. They even made time to show me round the new premises before they were even finished.
All I can say about them is a big thank you, and I will definitely not stop using you due to abusive comments on another certain forum
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 15:50
Can you believe that Simon B from SCC has just phoned my work, complaining to my boss that I am being slanderous and abusive on his forum website and if this continues he is going to phone the Police.
Asking why I am doing this in work time.
Hahaha are their no limit to this imbecile!
how has he got your work number and what a cheek......just goes to show dont it really.standin by my earlyer post,,,:lol: did you get any bother off your boss
LordStorm
26-04-2006, 16:06
Nope, just asked who the lunatic was.
I think he must be mentally ill or something, he's put himself in a very unfortunate position though.
Don't think it is fair at all that Awesome are now unable to defend themselves, particularly in a thread by a user called p3t3r, which was strangely his first post also!
Very tempted to make a post saying something as what has happened to them is wrong
Trumpetman21
26-04-2006, 16:10
Don't think it is fair at all that Awesome are now unable to defend themselves, particularly in a thread by a user called p3t3r, which was strangely his first post also!
Very tempted to make a post saying something as what has happened to them is wrong
I found that strange too - particularly as that is THE slanderous post too. Maybe there's a case of multiple split-personalities amongst site admin....:lol:
Be warned - if you voice support for Awesome (or even a neutral viewpoint) you will get banned....not that you'll miss it mind. :lol:
I found that strange too - particularly as that is THE slanderous post too. Maybe there's a case of multiple split-personalities amongst site admin....:lol:
Could of course just be a big coincidence! (and pigs may fly!)
He done the same thing about 3 years ago to some member of said site :rolleyes:
They got phone calls at work threatening police action [:@]
The Leper..sorry Leopard has still got the same spots then :blink:
ANYWAY I have used Awsome and IMO they gave a good level of service ;)
I had a Miltek fitted and there was a problem fitting it (NOT due to them) and they even got me booked into BlueFlame within the hour(and we all know how hard that is) who did a little welding for me [B)]
I would have no problem in using Awsome again :)
Very tempted to make a post saying something as what has happened to them is wrong
You WILL be banned and your post will be altered with words you did NOT write :rolleyes:
You WILL be banned and your post will be altered with words you did NOT write :rolleyes:
post made, lets see
And strangely disappeared:ban:
post made, lets see
Didn't last long..
TimBarratt
26-04-2006, 16:32
post made, lets see
Your post has just been deleted.
(Edit:- to slow must type faster)
TimBarratt
26-04-2006, 16:32
And strangely disappeared:ban:
Did they tell you why?
Did they tell you why?
Due to a post appearing in the tuning section on the same subject...Now it wasn't the same subject as I wasn't talking about tuning, just saying that Awesome GTi are a company who I am happy to use again
YerMother
26-04-2006, 16:40
I'm completely lost, what was this slanderous comment?
Awesome are a top bunch of guy's and I have been there many times and spent far too much money and received a top service everytime!
I'm completely lost, what was this slanderous comment?
Awesome are a top bunch of guy's and I have been there many times and spent far too much money and received a top service everytime!
One made by a user called p3t3r. I won't repeat it as its just wrong for it to be even said, and it remain there.
Awesome Gti....just Awesome :funk:
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 16:50
just signed up with said forum and allready had a pm sayin they know who i am and that there watchin me for bad comments:lol: :lol: how pety
just signed up with said forum and allready had a pm sayin they know who i am and that there watchin me for bad comments:lol: :lol: how pety
I just been told a certain someone has better things to be doing!
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 16:57
I just been told a certain someone has better things to be doing!lets see what they comment on now
Did they tell you why?
Funnily enough, that is EXACTLY what happened when I tried to tell my version of events on here, i.e the fact that I was cited by AGTI in there reply over on SCC, despite the fact that I had given every opportunity to APR to rectify the situation.
I was an avid fan of Awesome and in my opinion, the comments on SCC reflect the fact that they are actually defending the position of APR who seem impervious to any criticism....if I were Jim I would be seriously thinking about dropping APR and looking towards any number of other mapping franchise opportunities.
I have had good service by Awesome on numerous occasions which was one of the reasons I originally went to them, unfortunately when APR is put into the equation it all went pear shaped.
How many with APR Stage 2 have actually checked what is going on, I WAS happy with the map, that is until I logged everything, in doing this I was effectively doing APR's job for them.....it was the results of this that set the alarm bells ringing. How long until someone else with a knowledge of VAG-COM and what the information means gets into the same situation I found myself in?
I am not baiting anyone, I have made posts on here in Awesomes favour, the fact is that this and other sites are a valuable resource for people trying to make decisions to spend a lot of money on making improvements to their cars, if there is a problem with a particular product then the forums are where people turn first to.
Awesome may be getting a rough ride at the moment but they are not the first nor the last, Jabba have had a lot of comments in the past re RR figures,( they bought a new RR) Revo have had problems with motors going bang...they sorted the software and listened to customers, it is just APR's lack of interest which I personally find incredulous!
dsrr, like I said - you're in the wrong thread to air dirty washing
you've been around for ages, yet are really well informed.
if you want to have a poke at me for deleting your posts - drop me an email, I'll make it plainly clear why hijacking a thread isn't on.
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 17:42
just had post removed:cartman:
just had post removed:cartman:
I have my final warning :lol:
It's nice to see that Si is up to his old tricks again.... will that bloke never learn??? I used to run the Manchester local area for meets etc and was doing pretty well until he started this sort of behaviour. Me and most of my friends were banned from the site for voicing opinion and generally sticking up for ourselves. Needless to say that the Manchester and Sheffield section of that forum dissapeared. Contacting your workplace is just one of a number of things he will do to spread his evil.
Awesome are great, nice people, good value for money and very knowledgable, that is my opinion. However not everyone will favour them as a company. If everyone shopped at the same shop week in week out then then business as we know it would cease to exist.
It's nice to see that Si is up to his old tricks again.... will that bloke never learn??? I used to run the Manchester local area for meets etc and was doing pretty well until he started this sort of behaviour. Me and most of my friends were banned from the site for voicing opinion and generally sticking up for ourselves. Needless to say that the Manchester and Sheffield section of that forum dissapeared. Contacting your workplace is just one of a number of things he will do to spread his evil.
Awesome are great, nice people, good value for money and very knowledgable, that is my opinion. However not everyone will favour them as a company. If everyone shopped at the same shop week in week out then then business as we know it would cease to exist.
Very well said there Badja! And I am now banned also!:whistle:
PABLO ESCABAR
26-04-2006, 19:53
Very well said there Badja! And I am now banned also!:whistle:
cool :D
come on !! awesome have been going since before seat were even in the VAG stable.
a reputation built up from good customer feedback and support ,do you honestly think that their rep is going to be damaged by 1 forum bitching?
i have just had a quote from them for a fair bit of work to my car ,and your think that some peanuthead might influence my decision?
you're on the same f00king planet as he is.
AwesomeMark
27-04-2006, 08:26
Morning Everybody
Looks like the Sun is shining today.....
Trumpetman21
27-04-2006, 08:32
Morning Everybody
Looks like the Sun is shining today.....
Well, the 'offending' thread seems to have disappeared from view....maybe someone, somewhere has read up on libel & slander laws....or had it read to them....:lol:
AwesomeMark
27-04-2006, 08:33
Its been moved to the members only view i Believe
Trumpetman21
27-04-2006, 08:41
I suppose they have to have SOMETHING to brighten up their dull & dreary lives....
I'm more than happy with Awesome - very professional and friendly. :thumbup:
They'll be servicing my car next time (instead of the Seat dealer). A long drive but worth it. :cartman:
Trumpetman21
29-04-2006, 18:30
Had the motor serviced by Awesome today, top job (as I expected ;)) and a very reasonable price to boot.
Cheers boys and hopefully I'll be dropping in again sometime soon!
:D
AwesomeMark
09-05-2006, 17:33
This is a respond from APR in reference to the current on-going posts
Keith@APR
Joined on 05-08-2006
Posts 1
First off, Cheers and hello.........
Reply Quote Favourites Contact Moderate I am responding with hopes to dispell some of the misinfo on this thread and clear up some of our philosophies on our engine calibration methods:
I have read all of the correspondence between Dave, Awesome and APR and have made the following conclusions:
At no point did APR tell Dave his plugs were too hot. Our verbatim suggestion is as follows:
Now, on to the ignition timing question. It may be a good idea to lower the ignition timing a bit to avoid knock (we usually like to see ~6°). It does seem a degree or two high on his car (may want to check spark plugs to ensure they are OK and are the proper heat range).
To address his afr issue we responded with:
The car will richen up above 3.5K RPM to allow safe use of the boost and allow cooling- this is normal.
I will expand on this statement by adding that the me7 ecu's have a built in map referred to as the "hardware protection map". This map was introduced into the code by VAG engineers to lower egt's if they were operating in an unsafe condition. Raising boost pressure will also increase egt's so you must compensate for this by increasing fuel to keep the egt's down. Another product of increasing fuel is more timing allowance which is how we make comparable power to other tuners without deteriorating the life of the turbocharger. I would be alot more concerned about companies that remove the hardware protection maps than I would at having the ecu pull out 8 deg. of timing. The ecu has the ability to pull timing to keep the motor safe and happy. That is why the timing pull feature is built in. At no point did I see timing pull in excess of the ecu's ability to regulate it in the provided logs.
From this point forward the rest of the correspondence reads as requests for more boost and different octane level mapping as well as the addition of v-tune. Unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to develop these features and I feel this is the number one source of frustration for Dave.
Dave continues to expand upon a more aggressive file with higher boost like Custom Code makes. We will not conitnue to raise boost pressure to the point of harmful effects to the turbocharger and higher air temperatures. We do not recalibrate in this manner.
There are 2 different philosphies in the tuning aftermarket currently. You have companies that irresponsibly, in my opinion, remove all safety features and raise boost pressure to 19-22 psi, set afr at 12.x to 1 and reduce timing. Then you have companies that follow the philosophy of maintaining oem safety features, running richer afr's to keep the engine's components within the manufacturer's specs, raising boost pressure to approx. 1 bar and running optimum timing( please see our engineer's explanation to Dave below).
The engine has what is called a mean best torque limit (MBT) or best power spark advance (several other names to describe the same thing). This is a spark advance at which the area under the PV curve is at it’s highest.
From this point forward I don't know what else we can do for Dave with the exception of lowering the timing on the file a couple of points to bring down the pull as I agree that is it is a couple of points high. I really feel that Dave has chosen to listen to a tuner who follows a different philosophy.
I apologize that this has gone so far and I thank Dave very much for all of his help in developing the software for his vehicle. I really wish we had more opportunity to explain what takes place during engine recalibration but I have worked here and been involved with APR for quite sometime and it takes alot of understanding and knowledge of engineering, I guess that is why we have a team of 8 engineers on staff, to get your head around it so its just not possible to do so on a public forum or on an individual basis with customers.
In closing, I would further like to assure everyone who currently experiences or is thinking of purchasing APR software for their vehicle that we are 100% committed to ensuring that you have the safest, most reliable engine recalibration to enhance your driving experience as is technologically possible. We don't recalibrate your daily driver to operate like a race car, maximum power at the expense of the engine and its components, we offer safe performance enhancements to keep your car alive for many years to come.
GO APR!
AwesomeMark
09-05-2006, 17:50
APR and Awesome Gti Ltd. have refused to post replies to the slanderous and fictional remarks being blatantly posted around various forums. We feel we would have lowered ourselves to gutter level tactics others feel necessary to achieve a market placing.
A small number of people have grouped together to stage dramatic forum conversations designed to lower public opinions with regards APR/ Awesome. This has become a personal battle from certain individuals after they were told in plain English what sort of people they were. Added to this is the promise of free goods/services for their vehicles in exchange for negative publicity towards APR/Awesome.
APR pride themselves in strong, factory like power and torque delivery, with very safe boost and timing levels. This remains the case with the software they provide us and constant logging and development assure our customers of trouble free motoring.
Awesome have also been accused of ‘fixing’ rolling road figures to make competitor tuned vehicles appear to have less power than our own. This also is untrue as we pride ourselves in running completely impartially giving credit where its due .The dyno is a state of the art DYNO-JET using 2006 software. It is completely repeatable and this would not be the case if we fixed the figures. The only people who disbelieve our figures are the people who do not get the numbers they expected.
It is with this in mind that we have asked APR representatives to come over from the USA and answer any and all questions you may have. The Managing Director and two of the senior Technicians will be on hand at the Awesome premises on the 10th June from 10am till 4pm.The M.D. from DYNO-JET will also be in attendance to answer questions.
All are welcome to come down and find out the facts why APR are the world leaders in VW/AUDI group tuning. Please watch this space as APR prove without exception that they can out perform the competition on any stage! Dyno or track the truth will be clearly shown!
Many Thanks,
Jim Cotton.
Added to this is the promise of free goods/services for their vehicles in exchange for negative publicity towards APR/Awesome.
Jim, if you beleive this to be true then you should name and shame.
I doubt very much that anything like that has been going on.
The only people who disbelieve our figures are the people who do not get the numbers they expected.
Not true Jim, I for one believe that figures quoted at the wheels for my car are too high, not too low!!
The whole disbelief occured when Daves APR'd car made more power than my 'already reading high' car which I found strange considering my car was noticably quicker on the road. Just seemed very odd to me.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 18:08
I am not posting this to pour fuel on the fire, but do have a question if any of you guys could answer.. might help settle some peoples angst etc .
IF Dave's car produced what it did on the Dynojet compared to anothers car (Garys was used as an example I believe) then why did the higher (slightly) powered car of Dave accelerate in the real world several seconds slower than Gary's, when it recorded higher roller figures?
^^^ This seemed to be a topic of debate on the other forum questioning the Dynojet figures ^^^
What is the maximum timing pull the ecu can retard? 12 degrees? Daves logged 11's? (compared to the "usually like to see ~6 degrees ") - Without having logged this & being otherwise unaware, what would be the long term effects of this excessive ign advance for those who dont log their cars etc. {I ask this as I have been asked to data log a stage 2 APR'd car to confirm if its ok, or similar settings to Daves. Yet to be done, but due this week - One of your customers}
ME7.5 fuel strategy for egt control is nice, but for those reading this with ibiza's you dont have this in your version ecu sadly. (no wideband lambda either as std)
regards
bill
AwesomeMark
09-05-2006, 18:14
Gary
You are more than welcome to come down on the 10th of June to discuss any discrepencies with APR, or our rolling road as we will have the MD and tuners from APR and the MD of Dynojet uk.
Feel free to bring any other guests with you including Tuners, we have nothing to hide this day will Prove it.
Our doors are open to all
Best Regards
Mark
It was nice to talk to the Awesome guys at Croft a couple of weeks ago. I am sorry to hear a certain company/tuner has been using underhanded tactics to try and gain CUSTOM and discredit other tuners i watched it happen with Jabba a few months ago and its not pleasent. Lets hope they sink into obscurity asap.
Not true Jim, I for one believe that figures quoted at the wheels for my car are too high, not too low!!
The whole disbelief occured when Daves APR'd car made more power than my 'already reading high' car which I found strange considering my car was noticably quicker on the road. Just seemed very odd to me.
On the road did you both change gear at the same revs and at the same speed?. Its hardly scientific. I used to be able to run my ko3s ibiza against Custardcupras and the results always varied from run to run.
lol, not quite the case.
Both runs were from 80-130mph, both in top gear so no real science involved.
Just a direct comparison of mapping.
We could do the same both 4th gear 60-100mph and the results would vary, intake temps, being on the gas 1 second quicker. It always varied. It would not hold up as fact that they were 100% correct results.
But 5 seconds slower?
I recorded 16s, Dave 21s, surely that accounts for more than an extra second on the gas?
Acceleration started at 70, boost was well up from 80 onwards.
GaryM "I recorded 16s"
Take your handbrake off then.:funk::p
Same as Wilko's IHI, remember that was 6th gear!!
It is with this in mind that we have asked APR representatives to come over from the USA and answer any and all questions you may have. The Managing Director and two of the senior Technicians will be on hand at the Awesome premises on the 10th June from 10am till 4pm.The M.D. from DYNO-JET will also be in attendance to answer questions.
All are welcome to come down and find out the facts why APR are the world leaders in VW/AUDI group tuning. Please watch this space as APR prove without exception that they can out perform the competition on any stage! Dyno or track the truth will be clearly shown!
Many Thanks,
Jim Cotton.
Will put the 10th down in my diary!!
Will there be any revised software available for us APR supporters:idea:
Julian
Same as Wilko's IHI, remember that was 6th gear!!
You covered 80-130mph as fast as what Wilko does in his golf. Is this what you are saying Gary in the same gear......was Wilko actually in gear?.:p
Same scenerio, both in top gear and yes we covered 80-130 is the same time.
Obviously my hairdryer of a turbo starts to run out of puff from 5000rpm onwards whereas Wilkos would keep going up to redline.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 19:12
and Daves more powerful car on the dyno was how many seconds slower than yours Gary? Daves is a 5spd? both used top gear pull? no? yea?
I'll give mine a 80-130mph run and see what it comes up with when i have 10 seconds spare.
and Daves more powerful car on the dyno was how many seconds slower than yours Gary? Daves is a 5spd? both used top gear pull? no? yea?
Daves was 5 seconds slower, both top gear pulls with Dave in 5th and me in 6th.
Wilko stated that 5th gear from an 02J is the same as 6th from an 02M.
I'll give mine a 80-130mph run and see what it comes up with when i have 10 seconds spare.
Go for it, I'll be impressed if you cover that in 10 seconds in 5th, assume your car has a 5 speed box?
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 19:34
Daves was 5 seconds slower, both top gear pulls with Dave in 5th and me in 6th.
Wilko stated that 5th gear from an 02J is the same as 6th from an 02M.
5 secs?
blimey.
:blink:
Now you know why I was scratching my head when Daves car made more power on Awesomes dyno, something which has yet to be explained.
Are the graphs on Awesome's site?
Keith@APR
09-05-2006, 20:34
Not true Jim, I for one believe that figures quoted at the wheels for my car are too high, not too low!!
The whole disbelief occured when Daves APR'd car made more power than my 'already reading high' car which I found strange considering my car was noticably quicker on the road. Just seemed very odd to me.
I noticed that someone posted on another site that one car was a 6 speed and the other was a 5 speed. If you guys have the same trannys that we have over here, it would be an 02j (5 speed) vs. an 02m (6 speed). In the states the 02j is quicker in a straight line through gears 1-3 by far due to fewer gear changes but up top the 6 speed is blazingly faster with the 4-6 shift where the 5 speed starts to bog in 5th. Comparing straight line performance on different gear boxes is impossible. Throw that unscientific test away please.
I noticed that someone posted on another site that one car was a 6 speed and the other was a 5 speed. If you guys have the same trannys that we have over here, it would be an 02j (5 speed) vs. an 02m (6 speed). In the states the 02j is quicker in a straight line through gears 1-3 by far due to fewer gear changes but up top the 6 speed is blazingly faster with the 4-6 shift where the 5 speed starts to bog in 5th. Comparing straight line performance on different gear boxes is impossible. Throw that unscientific test away please.
Well said Keith, its like comparing apples to oranges. See sometimes i am right.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 20:41
whats the OGR comparison of the 6th vs 5th inc tyre diameters of garys & Daves?
5th on an 02J (EDT code) being:
24mph/1000 on a 23" tall tyre
OGR 1000 2000 2500 3000 4000 5000 6000 6200 7800
1st Gear 3.300 3757.7232 1st 6.12 12.24 15.30 18.36 24.48 30.60 36.72 37.95 47.74
2nd Gear 1.944 2213.640576 2nd 10.39 20.78 25.98 31.17 41.56 51.95 62.34 64.42 81.04
3rd Gear 1.308 1489.424832 3rd 15.44 30.88 38.61 46.33 61.77 77.21 92.65 95.74 120.45
4th Gear 1.029 1171.726416 4th 19.63 39.26 49.07 58.89 78.52 98.15 117.77 121.70 153.11
5th Gear 0.837 953.095248 5th 24.13 48.26 60.33 72.40 96.53 120.66 144.79 149.62 188.23
6th Gear
Final Drive FD 3.389 02J-EDT SEAT Ibiza Cupra 1.8 20v 115Kw Tyre Diameter in inches: 23
{edit} got some 6spd 02M ratios for Leon (guessing Golf similar
OGR 1000 2000 2500 3000 4000 5000 6000 6200 7800
1st Gear 3.417 4879.476 1st 4.71 9.43 11.78 14.14 18.85 23.57 28.28 29.22 36.77
2nd Gear 2.105 2740.71 2nd 8.39 16.78 20.98 25.18 33.57 41.96 50.35 52.03 65.46
3rd Gear 1.481 1928.262 3rd 11.93 23.86 29.82 35.78 47.71 59.64 71.57 73.95 93.04
4th Gear 1.151 1498.602 4th 15.35 30.70 38.37 46.04 61.39 76.74 92.09 95.16 119.71
5th Gear 1.166 1214.5056 5th 18.94 37.88 47.34 56.81 75.75 94.69 113.63 117.41 147.71
6th Gear 0.969 1009.31 6th 22.79 45.58 56.97 68.36 91.15 113.94 136.73 141.28 177.75
Final Drive FD 1st 4.250 02M SEAT Leon Cupra 1.8 20v 115Kw Tyre Diameter in inches: 23
Final Drive FD 2-4 3.875
Final Drive FD 5-6 3.100
Now you know why I was scratching my head when Daves car made more power on Awesomes dyno, something which has yet to be explained.
Dont forget though Gary, Custom code is mapped for bends and potholes maybe that is what made the diff.:funk:
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 20:49
Dont forget though Gary, Custom code is mapped for bends and potholes maybe that is what made the diff.:funk:
lol and the person who made that daft statement now works where? :whistle:
Dont forget though Gary, Custom code is mapped for bends and potholes maybe that is what made the diff.:funk:
lol and the person who made that daft statement now works where? :whistle:
PMSL :lol:
Why did you both not go to another independant set of rollers like jabba if you were that bothered? (gary/dsrr)
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 20:54
It was not just the rollers figures.... vag-com datalogs showed concerning figures & car to car drives showed one to be significantly faster to drive, which was the opposite of the RR figures... then came the logs to try & figure out why and the differences and then came some trouble thereafter.
RR is Dyno Lottery (TM), no matter who's dyno you are running on, regardless of manufacturers claims & venue.
Heard it all before. Seen it, had it happen to me.
go figure
:)
Bill, looking at my 80-130 log, in 6th gear I did 88.3mph at 3600rpm and 112.5mph at 4600rpm so thats 24.2mph/1000rpm
lol and the person who made that daft statement now works where? :whistle:
But was working for at the time, prob forced to post it by James.
Why did you both not go to another independant set of rollers like jabba if you were that bothered? (gary/dsrr)
Neil, im not that bothered (I had the quicker car :)), just curious.
Neil, im not that bothered, just curious.
As am I, I just thought it'd be interesting to ask dynapack about. Think i'll put it down to the RR lottery and that some cars take to different remaps better than others. I've gone from a standing start to off the clock against apr cars and always been impressed, esp top end.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:18
But was working for at the time, prob forced to post it by James.
you really are dellusional
LMAO..
I noticed that someone posted on another site that one car was a 6 speed and the other was a 5 speed. If you guys have the same trannys that we have over here, it would be an 02j (5 speed) vs. an 02m (6 speed). In the states the 02j is quicker in a straight line through gears 1-3 by far due to fewer gear changes but up top the 6 speed is blazingly faster with the 4-6 shift where the 5 speed starts to bog in 5th. Comparing straight line performance on different gear boxes is impossible. Throw that unscientific test away please.
But it seems that, on the test they conducted, there were no gear changes involved - they both ran in top gear which is widely believed to be the same final drive ratio.
jonathanp
09-05-2006, 21:20
As am I, I just thought it'd be interesting to ask dynapack about. Think i'll put it down to the RR lottery and that some cars take to different remaps better than others. I've gone from a standing start to off the clock against apr cars and always been impressed, esp top end.
was that on the 4 lane motorway you found? :whistle:
But it seems that, on the test they conducted, there were no gear changes involved - they both ran in top gear which is widely believed to be the same final drive ratio.
are people taking into account that the 02M box has a different final drive for 5th and 6th?
no that was on MY private track wouldnt ya know;)
YerMother
09-05-2006, 21:21
Why not do 40-100 through the gears as it may give a better indication of the cars performance! I'm guessing the both the same weight (ie you haven't stripped the back seats out or anything)?
Also is it not possible that Dave's car has now has a problem since the RR day! Also did he use lots of octane booster! There is just so many different possibilites! What was the actual difference between the two cars anyway I can't seem to find it?
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:23
whats the OGR comparison of the 6th vs 5th inc tyre diameters of garys & Daves?
5th on an 02J (EDT code) being:
24mph/1000 on a 23" tall tyre
OGR 1000 2000 2500 3000 4000 5000 6000 6200 7800
1st Gear 3.300 3757.7232 1st 6.12 12.24 15.30 18.36 24.48 30.60 36.72 37.95 47.74
2nd Gear 1.944 2213.640576 2nd 10.39 20.78 25.98 31.17 41.56 51.95 62.34 64.42 81.04
3rd Gear 1.308 1489.424832 3rd 15.44 30.88 38.61 46.33 61.77 77.21 92.65 95.74 120.45
4th Gear 1.029 1171.726416 4th 19.63 39.26 49.07 58.89 78.52 98.15 117.77 121.70 153.11
5th Gear 0.837 953.095248 5th 24.13 48.26 60.33 72.40 96.53 120.66 144.79 149.62 188.23
6th Gear
Final Drive FD 3.389 02J-EDT SEAT Ibiza Cupra 1.8 20v 115Kw Tyre Diameter in inches: 23
{edit} got some 6spd 02M ratios for Leon (guessing Golf similar
OGR 1000 2000 2500 3000 4000 5000 6000 6200 7800
1st Gear 3.417 4879.476 1st 4.71 9.43 11.78 14.14 18.85 23.57 28.28 29.22 36.77
2nd Gear 2.105 2740.71 2nd 8.39 16.78 20.98 25.18 33.57 41.96 50.35 52.03 65.46
3rd Gear 1.481 1928.262 3rd 11.93 23.86 29.82 35.78 47.71 59.64 71.57 73.95 93.04
4th Gear 1.151 1498.602 4th 15.35 30.70 38.37 46.04 61.39 76.74 92.09 95.16 119.71
5th Gear 1.166 1214.5056 5th 18.94 37.88 47.34 56.81 75.75 94.69 113.63 117.41 147.71
6th Gear 0.969 1009.31 6th 22.79 45.58 56.97 68.36 91.15 113.94 136.73 141.28 177.75
Final Drive FD 1st 4.250 02M SEAT Leon Cupra 1.8 20v 115Kw Tyre Diameter in inches: 23
Final Drive FD 2-4 3.875
Final Drive FD 5-6 3.100
5spd vs 6spd
from 3K to 6K rpms in 5th & 6th respectively
comparisons in mph being:
02J 5spd goes 72.4mph to 144.8mph (72.4mph increment)
02M 6spd goes 68.4mph to 136.7mph (68.3mph increment)
4.1mph less for a 6spd
you really are dellusional
LMAO..
You mean !!!!!! Delusional !!!!!!
Next i'll be thinking Custom code is actaully on a like for like car 6 secs quicker than an apr car.:funk:
Erm no not possible and said car is as quick as a similar car with 100bhp more ( wilkos). LOL.
Dyno Lottery or Can of Worms?
Maybe Bill should pen another catch phrase?
Keith@APR
09-05-2006, 21:27
But it seems that, on the test they conducted, there were no gear changes involved - they both ran in top gear which is widely believed to be the same final drive ratio.
It may be widely believed but I do know that my R32 with 02m hits approx. 164mph in 6th gear at 6400ish rpm's and my 02 GTi with 02j hits appox. 149mph in 5th gear at 6500ish rpm's. How does that math add up? I don't know the final drive ratios and whatnot but I do know the 02m has a higher top end speed.
When I race 02j cars I get pulled on from gears 1-3 by cars that have less power but from gears 4-6 I put all kinda lengths on them. As soon as they hit 3rd they leave me. As soon as I hit 4th I start to catch up, when I hit 5th and they hit 5th its over. I'm gone.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:27
But it seems that, on the test they conducted, there were no gear changes involved - they both ran in top gear which is widely believed to be the same final drive ratio.
not quite the same..
was sad and calc'd it from ratios someone posted for LC 6spd.
assuming same diameter tyres on both.
posted the ratios calc'd up.
24mph/1000 on 5spd 02J
22.8mph/1000 on 6spd 02M
anyone wanna check my maths?
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:31
You mean !!!!!! Delusional !!!!!!
Next i'll be thinking Custom code is actaully on a like for like car 6 secs quicker than an apr car.:funk:
Erm no not possible and said car is as quick as a similar car with 100bhp more ( wilkos). LOL.
spellcheck... LOL you good for something.. :p
catch a BT off boost and yea... a wheezy hairdrier turbo will pull harder before it runs out of puff. Use the gears however and it will be the opposite as we well know.
Jans Lupo will outdrag my ibiza in 4th & 5th from 2K, until mine gets to 4K its dead meat to the BT car. From a poxy K03s vs PE1820.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:32
Dyno Lottery or Can of Worms?
Maybe Bill should pen another catch phrase?
think I did coin the cans of worms previously...
lol
cans worms everywhere..
Dyno Lottery (TM)
:)
Bottom line is chipped Ibza cupra with Revo 206bhp, Apr say 200bhp, jabba 205bhp, upsolute 195bhp. Does anyone really think than any car is going to be quicker than any other by 6 seconds from 80-130mph. Something aint adding up either theres problems with one car or the gearing is not the same. 6 seconds is a masive gap in distance terms.
Jans Lupo will outdrag my ibiza in 4th & 5th from 2K, until mine gets to 4K its dead meat to the BT car. From a poxy K03s vs PE1820.
Prob your Ibiza map being a bit lame.:bleh: I am sure a quality tuner like Jabbasport could sort it. Give them a ring if they will have you back Bill.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:39
It may be widely believed but I do know that my R32 with 02m hits approx. 164mph in 6th gear at 6400ish rpm's and my 02 GTi with 02j hits appox. 149mph in 5th gear at 6500ish rpm's. How does that math add up? I don't know the final drive ratios and whatnot but I do know the 02m has a higher top end speed.
When I race 02j cars I get pulled on from gears 1-3 by cars that have less power but from gears 4-6 I put all kinda lengths on them. As soon as they hit 3rd they leave me. As soon as I hit 4th I start to catch up, when I hit 5th and they hit 5th its over. I'm gone.
maybe the R32 ratios are different.
to get your 164mph in 6th @ 6400rpm you need a 26" tall tyre.?
http://badger-5.com/bin/5spd-6spd.jpg
not all 6spds are created equal.
diesel ones are very tall geared like the R32 looks to be.
Golf 6spd ratios needed.. Leon ones used (presuming they are accurate from the post on here where I found em)
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:43
Prob your Ibiza map being a bit lame.:bleh: I am sure a quality tuner like Jabbasport could sort it. Give them a ring if they will have you back Bill.
LOL - I'm sure Jans Lupo would kick your arse with a wheezy K03s in the same standings as it hauls my ibiza.. you cant change the laws of physics on spooling a larger turbo, even one as small as yours :p :lol:
LordStorm
09-05-2006, 21:45
Gutted I'm not going to be here for the 10th, at a wedding - Would have enjoyed that. sulk sulk
This is the chance for all those that hide behind keyboards to voice their issues - maybe!
LOL it maybe small, but its still the fastest "Proven" brunters vmax ibiza cupra in the country. Remind me again you were 159mph mine was 162mph. Anyway i knew a bite was easy to get. My work here is done..........goodnight my bed is calling. God bless you all and sleep tight.
LordStorm
09-05-2006, 21:49
Handbags and hooks!
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 21:49
LOL.... get it on track big boy. show what you can really do round a track with corners.
straight lines are for girls & Garys....
sweet dreams - small turbo syndrome boy. :p
LOL.... get it on track big boy. show what you can really do round a track with corners.
straight lines are for girls & Garys....
sweet dreams
True....oh so true. Still on the original gearbox though....remember Bill clutch pedal down... change gear..... clutch pedal back out.... give it a go. I mastered that one 15 years ago. HAHA :bleh:
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 22:00
for a car which is actually used, (unlike yours), it gets thrashed round tracks for serious use.
something you have absolutely no clue about.... LOL
dream on naieve as you are.
2 x box failures since 2001 new car. 2nd gear lost its teeth and then earlier this year 5th gear lost its teeth.
>60K on the car now since new.
Put your car through as many track miles and see what breaks if you dare. (but you are chicken I expect)
Road racer.... LOL... get on track and do it properly if your able. (which I doubt)
Keith@APR
09-05-2006, 22:10
maybe the R32 ratios are different.
to get your 164mph in 6th @ 6400rpm you need a 26" tall tyre.?
http://badger-5.com/bin/5spd-6spd.jpg
not all 6spds are created equal.
diesel ones are very tall geared like the R32 looks to be.
Golf 6spd ratios needed.. Leon ones used (presuming they are accurate from the post on here where I found em)
Even more data to confirm that the "road test" in question is no way to measure the power output of 2 different cars.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 22:19
with your R32 ratios tho it would be the other way round tho would'nt it Keith?
164mph in 6th @ 6400rpm - even taller than a 5spd 02J by some 10mph the other side.
I too would question the acceleration times if these ratios are valid. (5spd is, but not 100% on 6spd ones)
Post change of code.... what times are managed now in same type tests? (Gary-Dave)
Icecavern
09-05-2006, 22:34
Guy guys guys...
I can't see the thread on SCC for obvious reasons but purrrrlleeeaasseeeeee...
Now come on really, this thread is exactly why the thead on SCC was started... The thread is there for no other reason than to stir up some trouble between members of the SEAT sites. It's all been quiet for a while so it was about time for another round of :censored: :whistle:
Everyone has got wound up about a thread attacking yet another tuning company. An attack on a site on which the founder consistantly talks tuning companies into giving him a free remap, then slags them off on open forums, then repeats said process with another company...
Oh and a few bannings along the line do no harm... No publicity is bad publicity as they say... :think:
And it's worked, you've got people bickering on here, attacking each other, you've got people being banned... Guys it's nothing new this has been going on for years, and I can say that as a co founder of SE and the ex Vice Chairman of the site ( oh so long ago and in the distant past thanks god )
Just leave it, let whatever gets posted get posted on the site and give it the attention it deserves... None at all...
I'm now off to get the solicitor ready for the letters no doubt to follow this post. :rolleyes:
Pete
I'll do another, out of interest. Im sure Dave will be itching to try the same.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 22:48
I'll do another, out of interest. Im sure Dave will be itching to try the same.
the before and after will (hopefully) show any gains or losses.
5spd vs 6spd does look to account for some of the difference.
repeat test and the figures will be the figures
I checked the speed vs the RPM in 5th vs 6th originally and they came out as the following:-
5th 6th
Speed Dave Gary
80 3400 3280
90 3880 3680
100 4280 4080
110 4680 4480
120 5080 4920
130 5480 5280
So Gary actually has slightly taller gearing, these were taken from my logs and logs Gary sent me, original 80-130 time was 21.74 seconds and was done using a half full tank.......as for APR's response, Kieth was one of the APR personnel I contacted to try to get a response.......had they been as keen to set my mind at rest as they are to put down any negative publicity, I may well have still been running an APR map!!!I have always firmly believed that you only find out how good a company is to deal with when things go wrong....nuff said.
ibizacupra
09-05-2006, 23:19
the 6spd ratios dont tally then with those I found posted on here for leon..
:think:
180rpm deficit at 80mph only to a 200rpm deficit at 130mph shows some inaccuracies in the figures somewhere. (albeit small at 20rpm)
Does'nt look like the 5th vs 6th equates to that big a difference unlike Keiths R32 example.
So now what Keith?
the 6spd ratios dont tally then with those I found posted on here for leon..
:think:
180rpm deficit at 80mph only to a 200rpm deficit at 130mph shows some inaccuracies in the figures somewhere. (albeit small at 20rpm)
Does'nt look like the 5th vs 6th equates to that big a difference unlike Keiths R32 example.
So now what Keith?
Bill, It was done with Vag com so I have had to take the closest to 80, say 79.7 or something like that, it's close enough to raise the questions thay I have surrounding the on the road figures, the Really sad thing about all this is that APR are only now sending all of the top guns over when they have so much bad press floating around, why not deal with it before it becomes such an issue?...seems like the 10th June is little more than Damage limitation on APR's behalf....good luck to them!
very bored with this issue now, i think there is enough info contained within this thread for people to make up their own minds on the original thread subject (if this is at all possible) this has gone way off course
take it to PM or email
by all means start a new thread on gearbox ratios and their relation to top speeds and acceleration, but no sniping or digs please
end of public service announcement :)