View Full Version : Garrett or IHI
I may eventually annoy you guys with the amount of questions i ask on this subject but i am a learner, ok so Jabbasport do the IHI kit and Revo recomend the Garrett what is better and why and woud getting one or the other mean changing rods and pistons.
Jabba quote 340 - 350bhp
Revo quote 440bhp i am guessing that this def means new rods and pistons with this setup
This is bearing in mind that i get a full system blueflame exhaust and with my current mods from the list what would i need to complement the Turbos
ibizacupra
23-05-2006, 20:54
all down to the flavour of turbo and spec as to how much bhp is made and how its delivered.
VF34 will produce a real 320bhp on comfortable boost as an example
push harder then consider some rods.
so VF34 is IHI and not Garrett then yeah also with Revo software already on my car would this matter if Jabba then mapped it or not. Also how easy is this mod to do would i need everything jabba say i need for the VF34 or not i am just thinking that if i spend say 5k to get 320bhp then i may aswell spend a couple k more and get 400 if you see my point
ibizacupra
23-05-2006, 21:43
there are more people about than just JS for BT conversions.
Garrett are favoured by some, IHI VF34 by others due to JS work on developing a kit, inc exhaust mani etc. Done this conversion on customer mk4 golf myself. It is nice. 300-320bhp honest car.
REVO code is not custom.
BT is a big step without getting it setup to suit the components.
higher power will bring requirement of internal mods. (if sensible)
so you could do this conversion on my car then and i am guessing the cost will roughly be the same, the reason i mentioned JS is cos they tell you everything you need to go BT and include that in the price. I knew you had done conversions before but didnt know you had done a MK4 platform one so would you be able to recomend what things to get and so on to complement the Turbo if i decided to get it done through you
ibizacupra
23-05-2006, 22:43
drop me an email to bill@badger5.co.uk and we can discuss the specs' and what you are after etc.
The kit can range from bolt on bits you need to full on if req'd.
Some pre-requesits from me being brakes should already be up to it, LCR so yes is the answer, suspension, intercooling.... twins should work ok on modest boost levels 1.2-1.3bar max, exhaust (DP will be new)
let me know
regards
bill
For up to the 350bhp range on standard internals you can't go far wrong with IHI.
After this look for full engine rebuild and massive turbo for 450+bhp.
For me thats the 2 options you have.
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 15:52
Is it touch and go on the internals or will they hold up to this power? As i would like around 350 but the price of internals etc is holding me back. Also whats the lag like on these? Anyway to see what spools up quicker etc without getting it done and finding out? I would much prefer quicker spool up for better accel than top end. Or is that something you can specify when chosing your package?
Hi scotty, a vf34 with p18 housing will spool fairly quickly,probably full boost by 3300rpm,330 solid bhp and standard internals will be fine.
Only problem is you want more power!
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 16:42
I know which is why i was thinking more of a d-tuned 400bhp turbo until i get more money to do the internals and map it up to more power.
So theres no real way of measuring how laggy as it were these turbos are in comparison as its hard to decide "big power, less quick" or "less power more quickly"
I would sacrafice top end for accel any day as when do you really get to go over 100 ish
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 17:11
I know which is why i was thinking more of a d-tuned 400bhp turbo until i get more money to do the internals and map it up to more power.
So theres no real way of measuring how laggy as it were these turbos are in comparison as its hard to decide "big power, less quick" or "less power more quickly"
I would sacrafice top end for accel any day as when do you really get to go over 100 ish
you say detuned but then I would guess you would be unhappy with spool.
cake and eat it?
;)
BHP Addict
24-05-2006, 17:11
And how much would we be looking at for the vf34 with the p18 housing??
I feel the same, internal upgrades are a lil costly but the last thing you want to do is blow the thing to pieces. :lol:
TBH iv never seen a BT LCR go, but I think a lil too much power for a FWD (only my opinion tho)
Like bill said 400bhp detuned would mean monster turbo at low boost which would mean lag.Go with the vf34 p18 then a turbo swap with better internals is all you'll need.
22,000 miles of ihi by jabbasport IHI vf34 .18 engine currently on 62,000. A complete mixture of town driving and a couple of trackdays and multiple 160mph+ runs still on a completely stnd engine. Stnd Lcr/Ibiza engines break chipped ones do as well Bt ones break also. I have heard of engines with forged rods, pistons etc breaking also. Its the luck of the draw. Look at how many cars have been IHI'd by Jabba and how many cars have required engine rebuilds because of blown engines. I think your safe at 1.35bar on a IHi vf 34.18.
so what you guys are saying is spend 5 to 6k on all the mods needed to go get 400bhp + bar the big big turbo and internals but instead hold back on them and then see how we like say 340bhp on the standard internals and IHI turbo, then if we want to upgrade all we need to replace would be the internals and the Turbo
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 18:04
I think if im sticking with 350 i will go garret as i have had them before and know there good.
Yeah 400 does worry me as JBS octy doesnt seem to reliable and thats 4x4 so should be able to handel it.
Think 350bhp will be best for me, but i would love to say "ow yeah its around 400bhp!"
sounds good to me scotty but i am gonna shop around i have spoke to Jabba Sport and Revo and am waiting to see what Bill has to say, would you go with a LSD with that or not cos i am thinking i may aswell go for one even if i go with 320bhp just in case i want more later
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 18:11
Erm no the diff cost is about 1k so i will do that when i need to do the clutch etc. as i will prob need an uprated one anyway. As to be honest i wont be caining it round bends too much
Bill did you get my email
I would go IHI vf34 .20. If you want more sell the turbo and get the internals done. Or go td05 18g and tune to 350bhp ish. Speak to jabbasport about this.
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 18:58
Is there specs on the net as id like to have look at the difference etc so i can narrow it down
Is there specs on the net as id like to have look at the difference etc so i can narrow it down
Its not no. Its prob best to ask jabba about the td05 18g and see what they say.
If ony there was such a thing that had all 3 lined up alongside each other showing pros and cons and cost
I think if im sticking with 350 i will go garret as i have had them before and know there good.
Yeah 400 does worry me as JBS octy doesnt seem to reliable and thats 4x4 so should be able to handel it.
Think 350bhp will be best for me, but i would love to say "ow yeah its around 400bhp!"
I thought it was 2wd? I seem to remember them saying it stops wheelspinning after 3rd and i cant imagine this in 4wd?
And i thought it blew up 'cos they shoved a big nos shot through it to see what would break, its a development car after all.
I havent exactly been keeping tabs on it though, JBS may have converted to 4wd and pushed things further since last time i looked.
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 21:23
Bill did you get my email
yes I did..
reply will be coming.
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 21:34
Yeah 400 does worry me as JBS octy doesnt seem to reliable and thats 4x4 so should be able to handel it.
eh?
its fwd.
and other than when it was on nos on k03s when it spat out its rod onto a chasing scooby, a few turbo bolt to mani issues on early fastenings coming loose, and a couple of expired turbos ragging them rotten to oblivion in the name of testing.. (mad man james LOL 160mph+ chasing exotica-private roads obviously- hehehe) Its reliable.
Its not like several IHI cars have'nt had issues of varying descriptions, melting housings, cracked exhaust housings, bearing failures, cracking exhaust manifolds, downpipes, flexi's etc...
Comes with the territory especially when you *lean* on em to squeaze every last drop out of them in the name of "more power". Personally guilty as charged :D
Run em on sensible 1.2-1.3bar boost for 320bhp and you have a nice fast car, snooth power delivery and great fun for 1000's of trouble free miles.
Want more.. dig deeper pockets and think internal works & alternate turbo's, weighing up the pros and cons of what you are prepared to loose in search of more headline bhp. And ask yourself the question. Will I be able to use this performance and apply it to the ground, and be prepared for other things to wear out faster.
bill
Personally i've come to the conclusion that past bolt-on kit's/parts a change of vehicle is required as dynamically it's not there.
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 21:50
when you get your EVO then Ryan?
Waiting to move house Bill.Will complete my plans with the s3 and will probably become the missus car and then i think it will be a porsche.
But back to the post,i don't think you guys can go wrong with a ihi at the levels bill is talking about,imo it's the best option and i think bill agrees with me that beyond that dynamically/fwd restrict the car.
I still don't know of a car over 300bhp with all round relibuilty.
The way I see it if you want a powerfull/fast allround car you pay for it.
Dan! Been trying to get hold of you,valves are here mate,drop me a pm.
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 22:05
Yeah you right, all things come with problems. I woulndt like to lose any more reliability really. Ive been in a 350bhp fwd and that spun all the way and ive seen a few others deliver it spot on. Guess i need to collar a few people with big power and get a ride
ihi very progressive mate,very trackable.
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 22:15
Have to see if the IHI waiting list is still uber long. I take it IHI is jabbas really so id need a new remap?
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 22:23
Yeah you right, all things come with problems. I woulndt like to lose any more reliability really. Ive been in a 350bhp fwd and that spun all the way and ive seen a few others deliver it spot on. Guess i need to collar a few people with big power and get a ride
I did over 35K miles on mine (possibly more I cant remember) with no problems at all.... sensible boost is the key. My car was used a lot for track work and as anyone will know this really works the whole package hard.
When pushing for more and more power, the reliabilty of some parts gets exposed. exhaust housing being one of them. push too hard too much heat and the VF housing sags and melts. happened twice on my vf34's and once on my PE (but that was for other reasons) - its a weakness when pushing its hard. Bearing failure has been suffered on a few occasions, luckily not by myself.
JS have their S3 quattro as a demo car still I think... worth a spin in it. Aside from it will have traction :p its power delivery will be very similar.
JBS have their octy which runs a GT30/35 setup on 1900cc motor, and this again will give you a sample of what 400+bhp feels like with fwd.
Couple of samples worth testing.
good luck choosing
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 22:25
Cheers, long way to go for a test drive as i was hoping to get BBT to do most of my work really. Still cant believe the octy is fwd, wonder where i got 4x4 from
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 22:26
Have to see if the IHI waiting list is still uber long. I take it IHI is jabbas really so id need a new remap?
IHI is just the make of turbo hardware, your REVO wont run it if thats what you mean software wise. IHI is'nt Jabba per-say. They started the BT kit in the UK with this and it is a good kit within sensible limits. The mapping is the other side and there, you have choice of who and where to go.
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 22:30
Cheers, long way to go for a test drive as i was hoping to get BBT to do most of my work really. Still cant believe the octy is fwd, wonder where i got 4x4 from
prolly cos it needs it LOL
Eddy's is in there now @ JBS receiving a GT35 turbo install. - his is 4wd and should be dead fast with traction to boot.
Eddy's having a GT3071R isn't he Bill?
Scotty_b
24-05-2006, 22:46
ha ha sod it i should sell mine and get a 4x4!
Eddy's having a GT3071R isn't he Bill?
I think so. :confused:
Although I'm told that it's different to the one on the JBS Octy in that it's bigger internally.
Just checked, it's neither. James is keeping the exact spec close to his chest.
EDIT: James has confirmed it is rated higher than the turbo on his.
ibizacupra
24-05-2006, 22:54
Eddy's having a GT3071R isn't he Bill?
ah.. my bad.
scotty unless you've got a ton of money to spend a basic ihi will suit your lcr.
Bill, i understand you also do IHI conversions? Jabba seem to have a long waiting list :think:
Is this the exact same turbo used in the conversion... IHI VF34
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUBARU-STI-WRX-IHI-VF34-Ball-Bearing-Turbocharger_W0QQitemZ220018223812QQihZ012QQcategoryZ10424QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Jabba quote £1000 for turbo so there's a saving of £500 alone here? Is it worth sourcing parts myself and coming to you for fitting and mapping or do you do the whole package at a competitive price?
Keeping it at a sensible 1.2-1.3bar boost and 320-330hp and am i right in thinking no need for internal modifications?
What about the exhaust housing and downpipe, do i need to go to JS for them or can i source them elsewhere to mate up with turbo above?
Will sourcing them from an impreza work or are they slightly different for conversion into the 1.8t?
Many thanks:)
find out what variant it is i.e vf34/18g or vf34/20g etc. it says straight replacement for td04 range so it's probably only good for 280-300bhp.
my ihi should be for sale soon. not sure when yet. vf34.18. on car for 10months, (9k miles). probs available november/dec time?
I take it all the golf parts are compatible with the leon? Its 1.8t generic?
What would you be selling? turbo/manifold/downpipe/injectors/fuel pump?
Or are you just swapping turbo and exhaust housing?
I would be interested buddy as long as you've run the IHI at decent boost levels!
vf34 comes with .18 exhaust housing as standard the .20 is of the vf22.
Madmile on that ebay link above it does say max bhp 290-320bhp
Isnt that a bit low for IHI or is that wheel power figures? 320bhp i guess at 1.5 bar?
I do believe if you know how (And i think bill does) that you can use an impreza IHI for use on the 1.8t.
Using a Jabba manifold all the IHI range fit apart from anything that is twin scrolled. The Td05 range fit also. The general feeling is that the vf34 is good for upto 350bhp i would say 330-345bhp. The turbo on Ebay looks like a normal vf34 power rating will vary from tuner to tuner and dyno to dyno. If i was you i would not go vf34 anyway things have moved on. Speak to jabba about there new turbo range they have a turbo that does 380bhp on a smallport.
turbo on my golf was supplied by bill as part of his kit. run for 5months on 1.2bar, since then, 1.4 bar. can tell you more when it comes off, can get pics and stuff then. selling turbo only. nothing wrong with it, just want more power
. If i was you i would not go vf34 anyway things have moved on. Speak to jabba about there new turbo range they have a turbo that does 380bhp on a smallport.it's still a vf34/20g they are tweaking it to get it up to 380bhp,spoke to elton about it the other day:)
it's still a vf34/20g they are tweaking it to get it up to 380bhp,spoke to elton about it the other day:)
I knew 4-6 weeks ago but waited until they went public, its nothing new and has been available from other tuners for a while.
http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/result/
These guys do vf34 hybrids, but look at the price of a Td05 18g or td05 20g from Blouch would it be worthwhile doing the work on a vf34 which would need a .20 housing supplied and fitted on top of the vf34 and its modifying. Surely it would be easier just to buy the td05 20g and have done with it. Its proven on Scoobs to be a realistic 385ishbhp turbo on straight optimax/v-power its rebuildable and cheap. Also i have never heard of the td05 20g failing and its said in terms of power the thinking is 18g, Pe1820f and then the td05 20g having the edge on both turbos. Bill would prob say the Pe1820f is a 380bhp realitic turbo being pushed hard enough, i reckon the td05 20g would do the same power with less stress. Anyway i am just throwing some ideas out there. Choices choices.:)
P.S also consider the td05 20g is roughly £650-700 of these guys and you already have a vf34 with lots of people wanting vf34's on scoobynet you could sell the vf34 for £250-300 making the td05 20g a £400 buy.
ibizacupra
31-08-2006, 09:04
Bill, i understand you also do IHI conversions? Jabba seem to have a long waiting list :think:
Is this the exact same turbo used in the conversion... IHI VF34
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUBARU-STI-WRX-IHI-VF34-Ball-Bearing-Turbocharger_W0QQitemZ220018223812QQihZ012QQcategoryZ10424QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Jabba quote £1000 for turbo so there's a saving of £500 alone here? Is it worth sourcing parts myself and coming to you for fitting and mapping or do you do the whole package at a competitive price?
Keeping it at a sensible 1.2-1.3bar boost and 320-330hp and am i right in thinking no need for internal modifications?
What about the exhaust housing and downpipe, do i need to go to JS for them or can i source them elsewhere to mate up with turbo above?
Will sourcing them from an impreza work or are they slightly different for conversion into the 1.8t?
Many thanks:)
DP wont fit off scooby..
depends on what car its going in as to what bits to get or make for DP
turbo needs mod to fit (clock housing remount actuator brkt)
ibizacupra
31-08-2006, 09:12
The concern with pushing VF34's and the like is the exhaust housings. They have proven not to be temperature stable when pushed hard for the higher power figures. Sure they can just about get there in power terms, been there myself, but with hard use they do fail/warp.
The other makes like the TD0x range remain a little unknown in that respect, but from the larger turbine sizes they should flow a lot more being less of a bottleneck in flow/heat terms. Time will tell of course.
The PE as gary said is a 380-390bhp turbo IMHO when run at 1.6bar boost. It still uses the P20 housing tho, which is its weak link. Warpage can occur with heavy use.
So is it a larger compressor wheel and port and polish on the vf34/p20?
I thought they wanted to use big 16g instead?
What is it the Yanks say " Theres no such thing as a free lunch" if you want 400bhp you need a min 44.5lbs comp wheel and largeport. The 18g wheel 40lb/min will be 365-370bhp but its really a good idea to keep things within there effciency range. Like has been said the Pe18020f is a realistic 380-390bhp turbo. If compressor surge can be avoided i really feel like td05 20g would be a nice 380-390bhp turbo running effciently. Jabba dont agree with me and reckon the td05 20g aint the way forward. I aint slagging jabba or saying i know better i just feel from many hours of research that a car with a 7800rpm rev limit would benefit from the td05 20g over the td05 18 or a 18 wheeled vf turbo. On a smallport engine i reckon a td05 20g will perform like a largeport Pe1820f so 380-390bhp. Surge is my only concern, if this can be avoided a little lag will be there but a 2wd 7800rpm Ibiza will fly on this setup also the td05 20g does not seem to ramp up the torque like the 18g. You will have the power above 6500-7800rpm that the vf34 needs.
The td06 20g is another league and will have lag, but the power will be there top end.
ibizacupra
31-08-2006, 22:35
and there's the fitment issue for the other hardware you wish to retain. (like exhaust manifold and DP etc)
this may also influence choice
I reckon the 18g will fit simply because the Evo3 16g does, the td05 20g would be another issue. I guess if you want another 40-50bhp over vf34 .18 then the sensible money is on the td05 18g.
ibizacupra
01-09-2006, 08:14
I reckon the 18g will fit simply because the Evo3 16g does, the td05 20g would be another issue. I guess if you want another 40-50bhp over vf34 .18 then the sensible money is on the td05 18g.
you might want to speak to elton if not done so already on the td05-18g result
So did the 18g not fair as well as expected? i heard jerome was making 30bhp more than vf34 on a 18g.
ibizacupra
01-09-2006, 19:20
So did the 18g not fair as well as expected? i heard jerome was making 30bhp more than vf34 on a 18g.
you need to ask elton & Co
you might want to speak to elton if not done so already on the td05-18g result
The result i think you mean Bill was a evo3 16g. I spoke to a well respected scooby tuner who has a evo3 16g from the jabba supplier of there evo3 16g and they had the same results. They fitted a deadbolt 18g and it was night and day in comparrison. Theres a thread on scoobynet " Are all 18g's built the same" and the answer is no. Deadbolts 18g's generally perform as they say on the tin, theres a lot of 18g Evo3 clones kicking about which are made in china which dont provide what they claim. Now i aint claiming anything i am just throwing info out there which may be right or wrong but its there to be read and researched upon.
Do you know the result gary?
Do you know the result gary?
LOL. maybe.
I wish i knew the answer 100% guys as i would happily share the info and we would happily all have what we want.
Fitment, spool time, reliability. I am pretty sick of it all. My brain is fried,:blink:
I'm not suprised if the big 16g is similar performance to a vf34/p20 as it has very similar comp/turbine wheels
The 18g is supposedly worth 20bhp over the big 16g. So 380bhp is a possibilty. I really dont know thats why sometimes its better to aim high td06 knowing you wont be dissapointed ie oversizing a little.
ibizacupra
02-09-2006, 07:49
The result i think you mean Bill was a evo3 16g. I spoke to a well respected scooby tuner who has a evo3 16g from the jabba supplier of there evo3 16g and they had the same results. They fitted a deadbolt 18g and it was night and day in comparrison. Theres a thread on scoobynet " Are all 18g's built the same" and the answer is no. Deadbolts 18g's generally perform as they say on the tin, theres a lot of 18g Evo3 clones kicking about which are made in china which dont provide what they claim. Now i aint claiming anything i am just throwing info out there which may be right or wrong but its there to be read and researched upon.
yea, sounds about right.
not all are created equal.
just to confuse us all :doh:
I'll let you all know how Jabbas new turbo fairs on my car i have scrapped the idea of a Td06 20g and have decided to try there 380bhp turbo. The hope is similar performance to Bills old Pe1820f basically only a peak power gain of 40bhp ish but instead of making 260bhp @ the fly @ 7800rpm were hoping for more like 340-350bhp.
Bills Pe1820f flywheel from awesome
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/rollingroad/graph/rr.xmas2_29.12.05/brockbank2.jpg
Custradcupras from awesome
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/rollingroad/graph/rr.scn_10.12.05/custardcupra2.jpg
You can see how the vf34 aint making the power i want to above 6500rpm. Jabbas new hybrid will hopefully fill the gap at the top end. It should also spool a little quicker than the Pe or at least as well. The results should be in by Mid October.
i'll look forward to the results gary! tempted by this also although the downsides are in 6 months time will you kick yourself and wish you spent the extra to achieve 400+bhp :think: that's my dilemma as mine is already 350-360bhp. the upside is that you'll know it will definately fit back on the car:)
I am, thinking of changing my ko4r setup for a ATP gt28rs eliminator. I will leave the 440 @4 bar injectors and std. internals. I am hoping to drive around 1,4-1,5 bar safely with 330 + hp. What do you guys think it is a safe boost for that turbo and std. internals? And are the injectors fine to that hp level(330+)?
Was thinking also of going full monty with a complete engine rebuilt and gt3071r turbo, but i want to have a daily driver not a 1/4 mile only car and since i broke 2nd gear few days ago i started to think a little about the g'box limits too.
Cheers
YerMother
03-09-2006, 17:52
Injectors will be fine for that power levels! As for safe limits, its abit of luck really, it's bordering on the stressing things side!
The pistons are good in the engine, the rods are the weak link and i think 340bhp is near on the limit, perhaps 350 at a stretch!
Is it possible just to uprate the rods and keep the standard mahle pistons? There is still no definitive answer as to whether the AMK and BAM rods/pins differ!
I know the pistons are ok for much, much more, the rods are more questionable. They are working ok for now, got 334 lb/ft of torque @ 3871rpm as the boost comes on very rapidly which surely isn't a good thing for the rods. I think if i go a little easier with the torque on the gt28rs and more progresivelly (vs the k04r) it should be ok. I guess i am going to try my luck. Hope to go into 330 with no crazy boost :)
Is is worth changing a turbo out for 20/30bhp?
The torque will be the same 340-350lbs/ft as it is now. Its the high torque thats the killer. Custardcupra is at 358lbs/ft now on the vf34, i am also so the diff in torque is not the issue. If it breaks it breaks. There stnd engines running Gt2871r's at 23-25psi and Apr are going in at the 380bhp level on the kits. The Pe was able to break Bills box the Td06 20g would probably be over stepping the mark.
Is is worth changing a turbo out for 20/30bhp?
It is if the same turbo makes another 70bhp than the other at the limiter. There only may be a peak of 30-40bhp its the space under the line that counts.
Look at the links between CC's car and Bills look what each car makes at 7800rpm. Its not 20-30bhp the vf34 is on its arse.
Is is worth changing a turbo out for 20/30bhp?
That's what have i been asking myself lately :) Just the ko4r fails after 5500 rpm straight on the face where 28rs could go nicely past 7000. The drivability is not so good with the k04r since the torque comes in too brutaly and is not so good for track driving. I am satisfied with my setup as it is but would like to try sth. else with a bit more progressive power/ torque buildup and a couple of more horses -the 28rs seems perfect for the job, also considering the price which isn't too steep IMO.
Actually its more like 90bhp at the redline at the fly.
Is is worth changing a turbo out for 20/30bhp?that's my dilemma ryan:think:
Actually its more like 90bhp at the redline at the fly.
ah ok so it's more about more bhp higher up the revs?
@ Gary; Jup it is all about the area under the curve not just the peak values. Mine peaks @ 5386rpm with 302,6hp but before the 7200rpm line there are available around 260hp. Wonder how much more hp would it be with the 28rs at the 7200 line.
YerMother
03-09-2006, 19:09
Casper what boost is your k04R holding at 7,000rpm?
YerMother
03-09-2006, 19:16
Hmm.. My standard k04-023 does that! :confused:
It is max-out or do you think it could run higher boost at that rpm! Whats your N75 duty at that rpm?
ah ok so it's more about more bhp higher up the revs?
Spot on i think the vf34's mid-range is fine its only the 6500rpm+ part i dont like.
Heres a link to bills Pe1820 vs IHI vf34. Look at the bhp/torque its only marginally more but its a lot more above 6500rpm because it holds on better.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2302792&page=2
Here is a link, look at the graph.
http://www.mobisux.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=210771&sort=2&cat=500
Hope it helps
ibizacupra
04-09-2006, 09:07
I'll let you all know how Jabbas new turbo fairs on my car i have scrapped the idea of a Td06 20g and have decided to try there 380bhp turbo. The hope is similar performance to Bills old Pe1820f basically only a peak power gain of 40bhp ish but instead of making 260bhp @ the fly @ 7800rpm were hoping for more like 340-350bhp.
Bills Pe1820f flywheel from awesome
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/rollingroad/graph/rr.xmas2_29.12.05/brockbank2.jpg
Custradcupras from awesome
http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/rollingroad/graph/rr.scn_10.12.05/custardcupra2.jpg
You can see how the vf34 aint making the power i want to above 6500rpm. Jabbas new hybrid will hopefully fill the gap at the top end. It should also spool a little quicker than the Pe or at least as well. The results should be in by Mid October.
1900cc and big port also on mine
ibizacupra
04-09-2006, 09:10
The Pe was able to break Bills box the Td06 20g would probably be over stepping the mark.
The VF34 also broke the std 2nd gear, but that was heavy Cadwell use
ibizacupra
04-09-2006, 09:16
Is is worth changing a turbo out for 20/30bhp?
for me it would'nt be worth the ££ for return.
£1200 of new turbo and I want some decent power hike to justify the bother of doing it at all.
ibizacupra
04-09-2006, 11:27
when comparing VF34 to my PE1820, also remember the engine was 1781cc then 1900cc with big port cylinder head and 3" DP change also.
not just a turbo change and comparison
when comparing VF34 to my PE1820, also remember the engine was 1781cc then 1900cc with big port cylinder head and 3" DP change also.
not just a turbo change and comparison
The new turbo is supposed to more effcient than the Pe1820. There saying upto 390bhp on largeport and upto 380bhp on smallport. Peak figures aint my aim just more sustained power. Time will tell. I guess 370bhp is the aim.
ibizacupra
05-09-2006, 08:22
The new turbo is supposed to more effcient than the Pe1820. There saying upto 390bhp on largeport and upto 380bhp on smallport. Peak figures aint my aim just more sustained power. Time will tell. I guess 370bhp is the aim.
they done any yet to have dyno's to have look see?
they done any yet to have dyno's to have look see?
Jabba only ever let you know what they want you to. They seem to keep things under wraps these days. There web site claims upto 380bhp on smallport we know vf34.18 is good for 340-345bhp a .20 housing and decat would prob see 350-355bhp the vf34 is prob around a 35lb/min compressor wheel. Add a bigger comp wheel and i cant see the extra 20-30bhp being hard to find more so when wilko was saying v-power alone can allow upto 2 degrees more timing. Like i said its not all about peak power its the sustained power above 6000rpm i am looking at.
ibizacupra
05-09-2006, 08:54
as ever seeing dyno's to back up figures helps people see what the delivery is etc... just the same as digging up previous dyno's as comparisons.
I guess some will take the plunge, go to a RR days somewhere and the results can be seen for themselves, whatever they may be.
watching this space.
:)
ibizacupra
05-09-2006, 12:08
Jabba only ever let you know what they want you to. They seem to keep things under wraps these days. There web site claims upto 380bhp on smallport we know vf34.18 is good for 340-345bhp a .20 housing and decat would prob see 350-355bhp the vf34 is prob around a 35lb/min compressor wheel. Add a bigger comp wheel and i cant see the extra 20-30bhp being hard to find more so when wilko was saying v-power alone can allow upto 2 degrees more timing. Like i said its not all about peak power its the sustained power above 6000rpm i am looking at.
exhaust housing is the poor item, including P20 housing.
restrictive and temperature limited
Agreed an external gate is the way forward.
If it's 380bhp on Jabbas rollers then i have dyno's of 363bhp on my vf34/p20 and i believe songmans has dynos at 370/380. Personally for me it would have to be a td06 20g or bigger to warrant a change.
I think bill's old motor was suffering a bit with the comparison graph also largeport and 1.9 will make 20bhp top end i would have thought.
If it's 380bhp on Jabbas rollers then i have dyno's of 363bhp on my vf34/p20 and i believe songmans has dynos at 370/380. Personally for me it would have to be a td06 20g or bigger to warrant a change.
I think bill's old motor was suffering a bit with the comparison graph also largeport and 1.9 will make 20bhp top end i would have thought.
Its not about a peak gain but 30-40bhp would be nice. What power are you making at 7800rpm with the vf34/p20.
Songmans graph i reckon by 7800rpm its looking like 300bhp@ the fly. The hope for the new turbo is 340-350bhp @ 7500rpm. And greater sustained torque.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/115224990.jpg&s=x11
Understand what your saying Gary,still think you'll soon be wanting more very soon.Btw how much is the hybrid/fitting/remap? pm me if you want.
Understand what your saying Gary,still think you'll soon be wanting more very soon.Btw how much is the hybrid/fitting/remap? pm me if you want.
Will enough ever be available. Not sure on cost Elton will let me know in the next few days. Driveability is the key. I trust John Banks opinion to much lag would only turn the car into a pig, it still is a road car for me not a track car.
ibizacupra
06-09-2006, 08:49
If it's 380bhp on Jabbas rollers then i have dyno's of 363bhp on my vf34/p20 and i believe songmans has dynos at 370/380. Personally for me it would have to be a td06 20g or bigger to warrant a change.
I think bill's old motor was suffering a bit with the comparison graph also largeport and 1.9 will make 20bhp top end i would have thought.
and Songman's also had rods, could run higher boost as a cosequence, (dont know if it does, but torque comes from somewhere) and maybe not insignificantly a Dahlback inlet manifold also.
not a 100% comparison of specs.
my old motor did suffer blowby, judging by oil breather huffing and a puffing - lol - 340bhp I think just before it was retired for the new 1900 motor.
I've just read that bit on jabba's site it says they have 2 turbo options for 380bhp.one is a hybrid vf34,i guess the other is a 18/16g?
and Songman's also had rods, could run higher boost as a cosequence, (dont know if it does, but torque comes from somewhere) and maybe not insignificantly a Dahlback inlet manifold also.
not a 100% comparison of specs.
my old motor did suffer blowby, judging by oil breather huffing and a puffing - lol - 340bhp I think just before it was retired for the new 1900 motor.
I have no other Dyno info than that which Jabba did when they worked on my car - sorry I can`t be of more help
I`ve never felt the need to dyno the car again - my project was for road use, not track, strip or indeed the be king of the Dyno shootout - and as the car goes extremely well on the road:D - i`ve got no complaints at all
I`ve done 30000 road miles with the car since the work was done last December, and have encountered most of the sporting `competition` from rival car manufacturers with supposedly standard power outputs of 350/400 BHP - and no doubt Jabba`s 370 BHP has proved somewhat more `muscular`:whistle: than the opposition`s, when called to account.
As far as dyno charts and power figures go, the car most definitely has freed up with the miles since the rebuild and feels now that it has more power than it had when Michael had it on the dyno
I have had problems - the first turbo`s bearings failed at 17000 miles - due to my fitting a `faulty `DV valve:censored: say no more!!! - I`ve done 13000 miles on the latest one without incident, so the jurys still out!
I certainly have never had problems with either manifold or exhaust housing - the highest EGT i`ve seen is 875degC downstream of the turbo
I am without doubt running right on the limit of the VF34/20, and thus I only use the extremes of the car`s potential as an occasional `overboost` facility - I normally control the maximum boost at 1.6 bar by setting back the boost control
I checked last night the boost figures on the road at max and with inlet temps around 15dec C the car gave 1.82 bar at 4000 - 1.54bar at 6000 - 1.44 bar at 7000 - and I think about 1.34 bar at 7500 - the run being done n 4th gear
In practical terms the car will just hold traction and no more on a dry road at 4000 rpm in 4th even with a diff and sticky rubber fitted
In general performance terms, it will do 80-100mph in 4th in 2.4seconds - it will run off the clock in under a mile from a standing start and will show an easy 160mph without effort on the GPS at about 6500rpm in 6th - it still pulls very well past that. The most i`ve seen is 169mph on the GPS at around 7000rpm
I`ve no doubt that the new turbos will be even better results than mine, but, in truth an extra 20 bhp means little to me[about 3mph at the to end] so I will take a lot of convincing to change for change sake
The car has been a huge success as far as 1`m concerned - it`s the fastest general purpose vehicle i`ve ever owned - so well done Jabba
The icing on the cake is that I get all this performance and 28mpg into the bargin:funk:
1.82bar! Caney style,i like it!
1.82bar! Caney style,i like it!yep songmans boost figures are indentical to mine! thought jabba never allowed their cars to boost above 1.6 bar when they mapped them?. anyway i have no problems to report of(that's done it lol)to date so i'm happy:D
yep songmans boost figures are indentical to mine! thought jabba never allowed their cars to boost above 1.6 bar when they mapped them?. anyway i have no problems to report of(that's done it lol)to date so i'm happy:D
It`s just that your car goes a lot quicker down the strip:-o:clap: - guess I get `nil poins` for driving ability:doh:
1.82bar! Caney style,i like it!
Yes indeed! - sitting behind motorway traffic at a `part throttle` cruise on 3000rpm in 6th[73mph] - seeing the road clear, and swiftly depressing the right foot fully to the floor - ah yes ! - `tis one of motoring`s great experiences - eyewatering stuff -torque steer in 6th:funk:
ibizacupra
11-09-2006, 09:25
blimey!
1.8bar....
(says he who has run 2.2bar on the PE1820 :whistle: )
The LCR has a nicer ecu with extra fueling and EGT inputs which must definately help when pushing hard, whilst trying to combat EGT's.
Rag it on track for 30 mins several times a day for a few years and the weakness's will become apparent.
As I said before, now confirmed by your boost posting, torque comes from somewhere. :D Nice to have tho is'nt it.
now to find some traction..
ibizacupra
12-09-2006, 15:25
another interesting discussion and potential option. :think:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1066413
Looks interesting but gotta think of the space available in the engine bay,remember seeing dans "compact" td06.
Bill on a sidenote what do you think of Eagle, Manley, Crower, Brian Crower, Corrillo rods?Are they equal to pauter?
ibizacupra
13-09-2006, 08:33
Looks interesting but gotta think of the space available in the engine bay,remember seeing dans "compact" td06.
Bill on a sidenote what do you think of Eagle, Manley, Crower, Brian Crower, Corrillo rods?Are they equal to pauter?
Heard of most of those, and not heard anything bad associated with them.
I see occasional Eurospec snipes at rod quality, which is bad news for me cos thats what I am running..
Some great deals on Scat rods in 144mm-20mm pins on vortex. Aircooled boys have been using them for their mad drag race stuff for years.
There is a snag on choosing the right size/spec unit to go with your other hardware, manifold, DP etc, which limits whats possible. One of the reasons I have moved to a no compromise manifold and DP setup, to get the turbo I want on there. Its all money tho, to undo stuff you have already done, but to go further I think this is inevitable. (why compromise when you have so much ££ already sunk into the project is my personal feeling)
The Gruppe-S one looks interesting tho. Wondering if size/dimensions are going to be available, as their website does'nt mention the new unit yet. (not sure they are actually ready for shipping or anything yet either)
On a side note, mine drove round the block last night for 1st time (finally). Boost is'nt too bad considering its totally untuned yet... 10psi @ 3K and just over 4K its gone mad. (off gauge)
time will tell. - traction was optional in 3rd. :doh: :whistle:
Good to hear your running again bill.
ibizacupra
13-09-2006, 23:16
Good to hear your running again bill.
just got back from dropping it off at CC.
Its going to be a mad thing.
boost delivery is hard.
not revved it cos I am scared to until its mapped, but the few blats I had whilst trying to hold a modest boost is looking well fierce. Spool up is as good as hoped, not much different to the PE. Slightly behind it but by 4K its ripping big time.
new 8200rpm limiter requested and a lot of boost if it wants to take it.
Have logged 35psi so far on way up. not revved it beyond 6K to my knowledge (but it does all happen quite fast!)
looking forward to it all coming together on time for saturdays race.
everythings crossed hoping no glitches.
:-o
Sounds good mate,fingers crossed for you.