View Full Version : Forge - perhaps you have seen/heard this before - REF FMIC(s)
Hey Forge peeps - I hope you are all well :)
I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on an issue I have with my Leon Cupra. I am not the only one with this issue, and we are looking to find the problem / resolution.
Now, since having my Forge FMIC installed, when in stop-start traffic for about 5mins or so +, my temp gauge (coolant) rises above the normal 90. From what others have told me, this should not happen, and doesnt on their car.
The temp rises slowly to about 100/105 degrees (3/4 way around gauge - max reading before warnings /beeps) and then suddenly start to drop back down to 90. A few mins later, this process happens again.
Now, First things I thought of were water pump. Nope - its been changed VERY recently and is a metal impellar version - car runs fine and doesnt overheat when really pushing the car.
Thermostat? Nope - changed it thinking it was sticking
Coolant - new coolant - levels all fine.
Fans - well, not totally sure - but fans both work, and at both speeds. Whether or not its the fan controller I dont know.
Now, I don't think the FMIC is the problem, so please don't think this is me pointing fingers or anything, but I was wondering if you've seen this before? Perhaps someone else has experienced this before, when an FMIC has been installed?
Any help would be great guys. Myself and bentaw (LC and LCR respectively) have this issue - and a few others i don't know names of.
Cheers all. :D
cordobabrendy
13-07-2006, 23:20
pabs iirc ive already told you that mine doesnt do it would be really wierd if that was the cause :D, have you had your rad flushed?
YerMother
13-07-2006, 23:22
Have you change the coolent temperature sensor? They've been known to fail!
jonathanp
13-07-2006, 23:35
Maybe something like heatsoak, when your stuck in traffic your IC could be getting hotter and hotter from ambient temp in the engine bay and hot air coming from the turbo not being cooled by the IC due to no real flow across it (stop start driving). IC is in front of the radiator so the rad is probably also absorbing that heat
IC might also slightly restrict airflow to the radiator at slow speeds
I had jonah's LC the other week in some blistering heat - sat static in traffic with AC on 18 for about 10 mins, bit of shunting about, but nothing special & the temp guage sat at 90
That has had a new thermostat though.
I've had a new thermostat in the last month - old one was working fine though.
Coolant temp sensor is the green one - it was changed about 18months ago, so it COULD be faulty, but I'm just seeing if it could be anything else.... thermostat was a pointless swap, i don't want to keep swapping bits that could be working...
brendy, as mentioned I'm not blaming the forge FMIC at all. TBH, Bentaw's LCR has a totally different FMIC, and still gets the problem. So I'm just seeing if the team at Forge have been asked this before, and then also been told a resolution or something similar.
I know its not supposed to do it - its just finding out WHY it is doing it.
radiator full of scum? block full of scum?
certainly worth a flush through.
air lock in the cooling system?,sounds like you have been playing in there a bit,so may be a problem,maybe :shrug:
flashbsd
14-07-2006, 09:23
thermostat or lack of fans?
pabs, try turningo off the aircon and see if that makes a difference (air con rad is inbetween the fmic and the rad iirc)
either that or sounds like an air lock or sticky thermo (which you have replaced)
well, as said above - thermostat is brand new.
Air con is switched off - i rarely use it tbh - but when i do switch it on stage 1 fans kick in immediately, and don't pulse - stay on constant speed.
Car had a 60k service recently, so new coolant, so I'd assume this also meant system was flushed out to get rid of old stuff and put in the new. New waterpump, cambelt etc as would be expected.
Can't see what else to say really.
Did the cooling issue co-incide with the coolant swap?
YerMother
14-07-2006, 16:07
Did the cooling issue co-incide with the coolant swap?
You thinking it could be an airlock!? Possible! :yes:
yeah. or dislodged some muck if they've not flushed it (and only drained it)
yeah. or dislodged some muck if they've not flushed it (and only drained it)
quite common, just pop the bottom hose off then drain, ive seen loads done this way
well mine has only recently started doing it since the weather has got warmer my car has 47k miles on the clock and i havnt touched the coolant since the service, However someone did mention something about the fans fuses being located near the battery and up until a week ago i had removed my battery cover to help get a cold air feed in so do you think that some crap or water has got to this fan control panel/fuse area
it *could* be a blockage or something, but when it was serviced they said it all went fine, and they know what they're doing, so i doubt they just drained it.
As I've got exactly the same problem as Ben, I don't want to point the finger at the service as he hasn't had a service recently.
TBH, the problem didnt appear straight after the service anyway - only when the weather got as hot as it is now. Thats not to say it isnt a blockage though...
Suprisingly i was sat on the M3 for about 1.5hrs today start stop, and my car didnt do it once. it was slightly faster moving traffic than when its occured before, but still....
I did a small test, and will test it some more, but I've NEVER seen this problem when the aircon has been ON. (Ie stage 1 fans running). Now, how does the fan controller work? Is it a kinda switch that just reads the temp from a sensor and then switches them on and off as required? Is the sensor the coolant temp sensor? If so, then I'll get it swapped next I think.
why don't you have your AC on? it doesn't create extra drag on the engine (unlike old style ones)
funny you should say that pabs i was on the way to hill head today in start stop traffic which took about 50 min to get there in the end and the car didnt do it once either
M0rk - AC uses more petrol doesnt it? Cos thats why I don't use it. (Skint lol)
And I do like to drive with the front 2 windows down, which AC won't work with.
it's engaged all the time whether you use it or not - no big mechanical clutch like on my car (then you do notice it!)
So you may as well!
really? I mean REALLY? Holey f00k - i never knew that. I always thought turning on the aircon required more power, and hence a lower mpg would be achieved...
Although that could kinda stop the problem, but it's only masking the problem..
it's engaged all the time whether you use it or not - no big mechanical clutch like on my car (then you do notice it!)
So you may as well!
don't know if the ibiza is different then cos on my bizza if you turn the fan off the compressor for the ac stops (you can here it)
I would of thought if the compressor was going all the time and you had the fan off something would get very very cold and maybe freeze
Well, I know and Feel a small clunk when i turn the aircon on, and the engine revs dip briefly.
This to me says that something extra is being turned on - meaning more load on engine=more consumption.
Thats what i thought anyway.
don't know if the ibiza is different then cos on my bizza if you turn the fan off the compressor for the ac stops (you can here it)
I would of thought if the compressor was going all the time and you had the fan off something would get very very cold and maybe freeze
it's still connected though. the older style ones make a definate 'clunk' when they engage (and the power falls away in the pathetic engine I have)
but the only way to get away from teh AC in an ibiza/leon is to not run the belt round it
so whats the small "clunk" I feel when I turn mine on then? Surely that must be something switching on? Engine obviously feels it cos the revs drop briefly.. and when the car idles it idles at a slightly higher RPM, around the 900 mark i think.
Guessing but the clunk could be the fans starting which would take a bit of juice to get turning but then once they're spinning the load reduces, the extra few revs could also be to compensate for the extra requirements of the fans. It's only 40 revs or so more though if my LC's anything to go by as it idles around 850 rpm anyway
ok - to confirm what I thought, I decided to check in the Leon Manual.
You can switch the cooling system (compressor) off to save fuel. However, this may reduce comfort.....
So thats why I don't always use it! :bleh:
Would rather pay a few pence / tank using the air con and not sweat my plums off :D
u ever heard of a window? :bleh: Its free that way ;)
I get hayfever so at this time of year aircon and windows closed when driving is a big help, also do a lot of town driving these days and with the amount of sh1te that the lorries and buses throw out don't want the windows open
yeh fair enough - i just like to feel the breeze through my hair LOL.. . (as if)
Anyway, back to topic.. anyone know/have any other ideas?
when cold....
if you remove the coolant bottle lid, and squeeze the top pipe, does it sound like you're shifting liquid, or bubble?
which pipe do i squeeze, and where abouts on the pipe?
I'm being lame. lol :)
mine hasnt done it for the past few days so i am at a loss as to what it is
redcupratdi
16-07-2006, 13:35
a/c will take less power than driving around with your windows open causing drag.
when i did a bit of plumbing on the top of raditors there was manual air vents you could release air from also a product called fernox to put in central heatng to stop limescale and corrosion. safe on alloy etc.
Same here Ben - not seen mine do it recently...
Its just too damn hot to go out and look at my car now though - was gonna wash it but everytime I touch metal I burn my hand! :(
Will have to wait until it gets cooler me thinks.
Manual Air release? What from? The coolant system? Where?
mine hasnt done it for the past few days so i am at a loss as to what it is
Right - guess what? I was stuck in 35mins of stop-start traffic this evening - M27 (some t*t managed to roll his boat + 4x4).....
Blazing Sun - 28degrees....
Car didnt overhead once???? Not a smidgen over 90. A solid 90 throughout the 50min journey overall.
What the f00k is going on? Both me and ben, at the same time, stop seeing the issue?
I'm so confused.
neil_f225
17-07-2006, 09:51
i have a fmic on my lcr and have had the same problem as you pabs on a few occasions.
mine has TOTALLY gone away at the moment - Chuffed to bits... has me worried when i see the needle go over 90....
but i expect it will be back. The only thing i have done different is use Shell optimax rather than sainsbury's super.....
i have always been using optimax so that rules that one out mine hasnt done it for almost a week now but with 36 degrees on wed we will see what happens then
RichardBW
17-07-2006, 13:36
I will be totally honest and say I have not read all of this thread so sorry if I am repeating what has already been said.
Its not an issue we have heard anything about so I doubt that it is FMIC related?
I do know that there are big issues with both fans and the fan control units on all VAG cars with AC at the minute. In fact it was so bad that the general parts were on back order for about 3 weeks in June 06. The faults in this system will not show up on the ecu diagnosis, you have to access the heating system to see these faults if that are stored.
Its quite an age old issue for the Golf MKIV brigade so it might be worth a search on the ukmkiv forum to see if the same issue has been reported there.
We also run a FMIC on the Leon in the Britcar/production S1 championship which has datalogging on board, we only see 95 degrees when tailing another car very close for over half a lap, as soon as the inferior car is passed and we have clear air it drops back to 90 very quickly, this car is only equipped with one fan too but copes very well considering.
Thanks for the reply Richard.
I didnt think the FMIC would be to blame as such, but didnt know where else to look. Its very odd now that its even hotter here, and yet my car has stopped doing it all-together.
I suppose if the hot weather didnt coincide with my FMIC install then I would know it's not the FMIC at all. But nevertheless, I'm happy as its not happening at the mo! (Hope it doesnt come back either!)
Darth Tater
17-07-2006, 15:35
Pabs
How old exactly is your motor mate? I see it's an MY03.
If it's still in warantee get it into your dealer and say you want the fans changed (both of them). As mentioned above by Richard this is common on
MK4's etc and they went on mine recently (few weeks out of warantee) :doh:
As I got stung for over £800 I suggest you look to get this sorted asap. I've also got FMIC but it was overheating before that was fitted. Annoyingly that was when it was still in warantee but it only did it once, then was fine so I didn't worry about it. Course, few weeks later same problem, out of warantee and doing it all the time so had to get the fix :censored:
I've still got to speak to SEAT UK about a courtesy payment as it's so bloody common and therefore should be covered in some way but I don't hold out much hope...
Hi mate,
would have been the first thing I'd have done if i could - but well out of warranty now (jan/feb06) and the issue only appeared the same week as FMIC install (which conicided with hot weather too)
Issue has now gone away, so I don't know how it could be hardware, unless a fan is "intermittent"? Although I can't see how that'd be..... They always work when i check them, and don't pulse... so I'm confused.
Scotty_b
21-11-2006, 23:37
Sorry to drag this thread up again but my LCR has started doing this. My main question is what temp should i start worrying at as its done it a few times here and there but i cant make it do it all the time. Took the car into the stealers and they said they wont change the fans as they looked over the car and said its all fine.
cordobabrendy
21-11-2006, 23:44
id reckon once its showing 100+ there is an issue, either faulty sensor or cooling fans. Using vagcom ive noticed that the car can be sat in traffic at 95 degrees but the needle doesnt move at all so another "couple" of degrees wont do any harm.
I doubt itll help that much but you could run vagcom for errors and also do a sweeping test on the dash needles in case there is something sticking or working incorrectly.
Scotty_b
21-11-2006, 23:47
Ive had her up on vag com a few times for faults but nothing yet (think rish said it doenst show?). Whats the sweeping test?
Just got worried when she first did it in traffic as i couldnt move.
Ive seen awesome do a lower temp thermostate and a three pole temp sensor, worth fitting one to help keep her cool?
cordobabrendy
21-11-2006, 23:53
the sweep test is part of the diags you can run on the dash module, it goes through all your dash lights, beeps, lcd and needles.
Scotty_b
21-11-2006, 23:57
Ah so just doing a fault scan should do this then?
Scotty, How long you had the FMIC on for?
I found this problem has only happened about 5 times since having the FMIC installed, and I've had it since about March this year.
My needle reaches about 100, but then seems to plummet very quickly, which I can only assume is to the stage 2 fans kicking in??? It only does it in traffic as well, so adding the heat from the car in front, and having 0 cool air passing over the rad. As soon as i hit, say 10mph, for about 20 seconds, it drops right back down again.
I've NEVER seen the warning go off that its too hot, so its not the waterpump, and as said, ONLY in traffic.
If you find anything out, let me and Bentaw know - we both have FMIC's (he doesnt have a Forge though) and both have the problem.
Scotty_b
22-11-2006, 17:51
Erm for a few months now, just like to say this is nothing against forges FMIC as im over the moon with it and wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them to anyone else. But i spoke to Greg at VAG tech today (my cars in getting my new hybrid turbo fitted) and he said its a common problem on the Audis with forge FMIC's but its nothing to worry about. I was picking his brains to see if it was worth fitting a neuspeed lower temp thermostat and he said it could cause more hassle than its worth
ah ok mate - thanks for that info :)
Scotty_b
22-11-2006, 19:50
No problem
wild willy
22-11-2006, 20:05
What about wiring a direct feed to both fans. If for example you take the feed via a relay triggerd from the handbrake, when stationary in traffic both fans should chill the rad.
Scotty_b
22-11-2006, 20:08
I was really thinking about putting a kenlow fan or similar on either the RAD or IC to pull hot air out.
But i think the main bit of advice is not to worry as its not a problem, just a new characteristic
cordobabrendy
22-11-2006, 20:31
sounds plausible, bearing in mind i do circa 20k a year with an average speed of 18mph.
why doesnt mine do it then?
i do circa 30k miles a year, and 99% of it is motorway driving and being stuck on the M3 or M4. Its only done it like 5 times since installing... perhaps its down to a weaker component, or more worn component or something..... or even type of coolant? or different temp sensors (i have the green coolant temp sensor).... Or perhaps your rad is cleaner? :lol:
I've seen VAG-COM report temps of up to 101 i think, so its not a faulty gauge. Performance isnt effected, in fact NOTHING other than the needle seems to be effected... and 5 times in 9 months doesn't really bother me.
ForgeMotorsport
23-11-2006, 16:01
Its not a common problem at all .
We have many Audi intercoolers in the market place with zero issues .
Not to professional making commts like that
Erm for a few months now, just like to say this is nothing against forges FMIC as im over the moon with it and wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them to anyone else. But i spoke to Greg at VAG tech today (my cars in getting my new hybrid turbo fitted) and he said its a common problem on the Audis with forge FMIC's but its nothing to worry about. I was picking his brains to see if it was worth fitting a neuspeed lower temp thermostat and he said it could cause more hassle than its worth
warren_cox
23-11-2006, 16:10
I never had a single problem with the FMIC on my LCR. Always 100% on the nail of the mid point for temperature no matter how hard driven or how hot the ambient temp (stuck in traffic on the M25 for 3hrs with aircon on full and 29 deg outside temperature). Admittedly the car had only done 9k miles when it was fitted but I still rate it as one of the best mods I fitted to the car.
Its not a common problem at all .
We have many Audi intercoolers in the market place with zero issues .
Not to professional making commts like that
I don't think what scotty said was supposed to come across like that, but anyway, I'm sure he'll comment later.
It certainly is a weird problem. If you ever do find out the issue please let us know!
Scotty_b
23-11-2006, 17:48
Its not a common problem at all .
We have many Audi intercoolers in the market place with zero issues .
Not to professional making commts like that
The thing you have to remember is people using any FMIC (bentw uses a pace FMIC) will have had loads of other mods done so there could be loads of different reasons for this issue. I never actually thought to look in the forge area for this issue as I didn’t think it was a fault with the forge unit, more a characteristic of fitting a FMIC maybe, but that’s about it (common sense, if the car gets too warm its down to the cooling not working 100% and ive checked all the other options it could be). VAGTech haven’t said anything BAD about forge (in fact they recommended more forge parts for my car) all they said was “We have loads of audis come in with forge mounts with that issue”, Never once did they say its because of the forge unit just that its not a new issue. Also it shows that Forge are the leading manufacture of FMIC so the common part on all these cars would be the FMIC.
Maybe you haven’t heard anything about it because its not a common occurrence, it doesn’t happen all the time and 99% of people would expect the cooling capabilities of the cars cooling system would be different to how it was before as you have reduced air flow by a small amount
ibizacupra
24-11-2006, 09:29
water pumps all fit and healthy and metal impellored?
slippage on plastic ones not uncommon and will cause reduced circulation and higher temps
water pumps all fit and healthy and metal impellored?
:yes:
Did mine at my 60k service... now on 70k. Water pump is the metal one, as recommended by many people.
ibizacupra
24-11-2006, 12:19
:yes:
Did mine at my 60k service... now on 70k. Water pump is the metal one, as recommended by many people.
good good
wondering if all the reported temp people were plastic or metal pumps
ibizacupra
24-11-2006, 14:46
i am carbon based
Icecavern
13-06-2007, 09:18
Sorry to bump an old thread, but...
I've noticed this twice now on my LCR. Once stuck on the M25 and the other waiting at a station picking up B. THe temp gauge seems to rise to about the 3/4 mark and then the fans kick in and a few seconds later the temp is back to 90 again.
I didn't notice it before the FMIC was fitted ( but I hadn't had the car that long ) but I put it down to the fact that the FMIC blocks the radiator a bit and so when you come to a halt the radiator doesn't cool as effectively and the fans are needed to drag some cooler air accross it.
Did anyone ever get to the bottom of this? Or is my assumption right?
Pete,
My problem disappeared all on it's own, about 1/2 a year ago now. I've been stuck in some heavy traffic over the last few weeks, and not had the problem at all.
It's totally baffled me. But touch wood, I don't have the issue anymore.
cordobabrendy
13-06-2007, 09:56
It must be a bent pipe or something pete as ive never had my needle over 90 ever.
Scotty_b
15-06-2007, 17:13
Its (or could be) a problem with the fans, had mine replced by MK seat as there was an issue/recall on them (not sure what the call it) but ive been testing the car on hot days and putting in conditions ive been avoiding due to the over heating and touch wood they seem ok.
The issue is somethingto do with the control unit i think
Well - I've had absolutely NOTHING changed on my car apart from a thermostat - and I still had the problem after that.
Have you tried changing the temp sensor in the top coolant hose to a green one? THAT is a common issue.
I've had Forge FMIC's for 2 years and never had a single coolant issue ever, including sitting for hours in traffic or during trackdays.
...but the G61 doesn't have anything to do with the gauge temperature, not sure about the fans...
When I had the extra intake temperature gauge fitted, I always noticed that the inlet manifold temp (on vag-com) would shoot up after stopping (after a run, especially high speed/motorway) compared to the actual air temp near the MAP. This was with standard intercoolers.
Maybe the FMIC, especially with the big alloy end tanks, is heat soaking and holding the heat in front of the radiator? If it was down to it blocking the rad, the temp wouldn't come down.
Mind you, the fans should come on sooner than 3/4 of the way up the gauge? I still wonder what triggers the fans to come on - I'm sure mine working even when the gauge wasn't working...
Can't be the thermostat, that only has an effect whent he car is warming up...
I have been on the Green coolant sensor for ages now - had that before I had the FMIC.
I thought the thermostat opened and shut to let water in/out of the Radiator when it reached a certain temp? Or are you saying that the thermostat always stays open once the car has reached normal temps?
Yep, thermostat stays open once the car is up to temp.
Ok - cool.
But surely if, for some reason, it DIDN'T stay open... the car would overheat?
Yes, but if it stayed closed when the car was warmed up then it would overheat straight away...
And the fans wouldn't do anything, because no coolant would be going through the rad.
okey dokey :) Thanks for that.
my problem has been resolved it was a combination of the fans and air lock, the fans were replaced by JKM and the problem sort of went away as the fans were shagged anyway, it did it twice the other day and i rang JKM and Jim said it might be air lock so i unscrewed my coolant tank top squeezed a few pipes and hey presto no more problems