View Full Version : JabbaSport (again)
JONSPOPE
21-10-2002, 10:52
Had my Leon 20VT (Sport 2001) remapped by Jabbasport a couple of weeks ago.
Wow!, Cant believe how quick the car is now. The boost just keeps a on comming right up to about 5,800 revs, Traction Control light flashes in 3rd in the dry!!!
Recorded results were (with crap tesco fuel), 221bhp & 220 ftlbs torque. Mike @ Jabba recons on another 6 - 8% on top with Shell Optimax giving 238bhp + 237ftlbs. Mid range push is awsome. The car feels totally placid unless YOU want to push on.
Totally recommend Jabbasport, great service, great results and they really know their subject. They will return car to 'standard' free of charge is you want.
Jon
PS: My car is now for sale, see Forums
ibizacupra
21-10-2002, 11:34
Originally posted by JONSPOPE
Had my Leon 20VT (Sport 2001) remapped by Jabbasport a couple of weeks ago.
Wow!, Cant believe how quick the car is now. The boost just keeps a on comming right up to about 5,800 revs, Traction Control light flashes in 3rd in the dry!!!
Recorded results were (with crap tesco fuel), 221bhp & 220 ftlbs torque. Mike @ Jabba recons on another 6 - 8% on top with Shell Optimax giving 238bhp + 237ftlbs. Mid range push is awsome. The car feels totally placid unless YOU want to push on.
Totally recommend Jabbasport, great service, great results and they really know their subject. They will return car to 'standard' free of charge is you want.
Jon
PS: My car is now for sale, see Forums
You were so impressed you decided to sell your car :D
Bill
JONSPOPE
21-10-2002, 11:44
I've decided to buy an MY03 Leon Cupra & have the Jabbasport hardware switched to this (the wife can't understand me either!)
Jon
I'm always amazed at how much Jabba seem to be able to get from their conversions. Do Jabba really tune the cars safely or do they just max the boost? Or is the K03 sport turbo really that much better than the normal K03 (as fitted to my MY2000 Cupra)?
JONSPOPE
21-10-2002, 12:55
According to Mike at Jabbasport every car is different so he tunes them to suit.
My Leon is now running at 1.1 bar /3400 rpm, then dropping to 1 bar all the way to aprox 5700 rpm. The delivery is smooth, certainly not peaky.
I'm not sure how they do it for the price ( I paid £ 425) bu it work a treat.
You can even get an electronic boost controller which includes a hidden switch to revert the car back to 'standard' so the wife does'nt dump it on the first wet roundabout. Costs an extra £115 plus vat though.
Byee
Jon
Anyone got Jabbasport’s web page address, can’t seem to find it in the previous threads
Cheers
Looks like a new website is under construction at the moment
www.jabbasport.com
ibizacupra
21-10-2002, 14:20
Originally posted by JONSPOPE
I've decided to buy an MY03 Leon Cupra & have the Jabbasport hardware switched to this (the wife can't understand me either!)
Jon
I hope your MY03 has as good an engine...
Some are better than others.
regards
Bill
JONSPOPE
22-10-2002, 09:44
Bill,
See from your response that you deal with Forge products. My LEON has a FORGE DV 007 fitted. In standard form I hardly felt or heard) any difference but now I get a distinct noise from the valve every time I let my foot off the gas. It's a bit like a 'dump valve' noise but lower pitched.
Is this normal??
Trust you can help
Jon
Hi Peeps.. I've been reading these forums for a while. As it's been a great source of info regarding 1.8T tuning. I, however, have a VW Beetle 1.8T. I guess you wont mind me posting here tho, as you got one or 2 other folk with Skoda 1.8T's etc..
I took my Beetle to JabbaSport last friday (18th) where Michael extracted an impressive 228bhp from it. Car is 100% stock otherwise. Except a Hyperboost DV, and a vented wheel arch liner from an American Turbo S Beetle. This basically allows more air to flow through the intercooler. Not a big mod.. Car was using Shell Optimax too. For those interested, you can see my dyno print out here..
http://homepage.mac.com/luapy/jabbabug.jpg
btw.. My Bug was found to have a pretty good 175bhp as standard.. (VW rated at 150bhp) £425 very well spent in my opinion! It's brilliant to drive.. Nothing like wiping the smile of a smug BMW drivers face by blasting past em in a Beetle ;)
Hey Nippa, glad youve found the forums helpful.
We dont discriminate, well not a lot anyway ;)
just a question - that may apply to others...
how well is the RR calibrated?
I mean - could it be out & your beetle produced 150bhp & then 203bhp once chipped?
not seen a known to be good car vs a jabba car on the same rollers under controlled circumstances so this is me just asking a question.
Sorry, not trying to put a dampner on things but as I said in an earlier post, I'm always amazed at the results from Jabba.
Could it be that their dyno is over-reading?
Has anybody had the power of their Jabba chipped car proved on a different dyno?
If they really are this good then I might consider binning my AmD chip and see what Jabba can do for me.
Am also still concerned though that if the figures are correct, that Jabba aren't just maxing the boost without looking after the fueling properly as well.
Looks like you got in with the same question before me:)
Well.. if the rollers are high readers.. Then some peoples Seats are seriously screwed as stock.. I asked Michael what other VAG cars were putting out as stock.. He said that typically, Audi TT 180's were around 190 or so bhp. and that some 150bhp rated Seats were only giving 146bhp! So if the rollers are high readers, then i hate to think what those Seats were really putting out.
Plus for VW's at least, it's common knowledge that many of the 1.8T engines have underated bhp figures published.
Also, Jabba have had 2 or 3 customers bring their Upsolute chipped cars in. Jabba mannaged to remap the ecu's again, and consistantly get another 10-15bhp out of them.
Also, I know from the Beetle forums I use, there are a couple of peeps there who also got their Bugs Jabba'd.. 1 of em was showing 156bhp stock. The other, 180bhp! Quite a difference. Although the Bug with 180, did have a Miltek cat back exhuast (Not that they give +30bhp!).
Either way, I'm not sure I care.. The car is simply amazing to drive. And I am very impressed with the work that Jabba did..
No complaints here..
Looks like time for a RR day :).
I to would be a bit dubious of Jabba's numbers. I wouldnt doubt their chip, but most tuners get roughly the same out of the 1.8T engine.
Jonathan
Originally posted by Nippa
My Bug was found to have a pretty good 175bhp as standard.. (VW rated at 150bhp)
Well I don't see how it can be so much above standard - the rollers must be over reading - accounts for your post remap figure.
I would be interested to hear from anyone who has had a Jabba remap for a long time - how reliable has it been, any problems?
Beetles & Golf 1.8T's often get higher than standard bhp numbers on the rollers. Look on any US forum like Vortex, and you will see that a lot of people had similar findings with their cars too. It really isnt unusual at all.. Some engines are just better than others. Even the 228bhp that Jabba got from my Bug, was a little more than they usually get from this car. Guess I was lucky..
Besides, you can expert higher numbers from a custom remap, over a generic chip, as the custom map is tailor made for 1 engine and will have zero compromises.
Sure, AMD's custom remaps appear to give less power than Jabba's, But it's quite possible they prefer not to max things out, as much as Jabba do.
The important thing really tho, is to compare the before and after figures. This will at least give you an accurate idea of what has actually been gained. Regardless of what was there before.
Nippa
Your right in saying look at before and after to really see the gains. Your up 40bhp which is about spot on for most companies offering remaps. What seems low is your torque gain. Your dyno plot shows some 69nm gain in torque. An off the shelf chip from MTM offers over 90nm for the same car. That about 15lbft.
Custom remaps dont seem to offer any real adavantages as far as Ive seen. Again thats not saying Jabbasports remap is poor. How long do they spend remapping it and what parameters are checked ?
Jonathan
They are very thorough.. Actual time on the rolling road was around 4 hours. But my car was there for most of the day having the ECU modifications done etc.
Also, One thing I didnt mention earlier, was that there was some kind of fault in the factory chip/programming. It was returning very inconsistant numbers on the dyno. And it was not heat soak related. The link I posted above shows the stock program on a particularly good run. Take a look at this other dyno run, done earlier the same day (Ignore the thick lines, thats the new program in development). And you can see how inconsistant the stock program was. So sometimes my car (in standard from) went really well.. And other times it didnt.
http://homepage.mac.com/luapy/jabbabug3.jpg
With the new Jabba program however, the car returned very consistant numbers on the dyno every time. So that was an improvement in itself. Compare the bad stock dyno run, to the best Jabba run, and the improvements are massive..
As for an MTM chip producing higher torque. Thats most likely down to a boost spike, and I will bet money that torque gain cant be sustained for any decent width of the rpm band. Thats where the Jabba remap excells.. Thats a fat spread of very useable torque...
I do doubt that a generic chip can ultimately better a custom program. As you can see already, standard engines can vary a lot from one to the other. Only a custom remap can properly make the most of an individual engine. This isnt to say generic chips are bad. Just that I believe custom, individual remaps to do a better job.
The other important thing is, Is that I specifically requested as flat a torque curve as possible.. Which Jabba did a pretty good job with. It was possible to run more boost in the mid range, and have more power/torque there.. But then as the turbo runs out of puff further up the rpm range, the torque will start to plummet rapidly. You will see good examples of that on dynos from other chip tuners. And Peaky torque curves are crap.
And as I mentioned before, Jabba can cater for special requests, or customised updates. You cant do that with an off the shelf chip. So if you upgrade the car with a free flow exhaust or whatever, it's cheap, and fairly easy to alter the mapping to suit.
Believe me.. I did a lot of 'window shopping' before I took the Jabba option.. Ultimately, Jabba seemed to offer just what I wanted, without charging a fortune either.
And so far, I dont regret my choice at all :D
Nippa
Did you also get the electronic boost controller? Any good?
How many miles has your Beetle done? Has that got anything to do with it? My last cupra had 39K miles on it and it was getting quicker with more miles on it…
I have a Cupra R and I am seriously thinking of getting a Jabba chip. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago and he recommended getting a few thousand miles on the clock first.
:D
Darren, Watford! Your a local! I live in Radlett.. Not far.. if you see a Silver Beetle blasting about.. It's prolly me ;) I'm often in Watford..
Anyway, No I didnt get the boost controller fitted. Although it can be retro fitted with no problem, And I am tempted to go back and have it fitted later.
My Beetle only had 7600 Miles on it when it was Jabba'd. Not a lot. I dont really do many miles per year anyway.. Michael did say that mileage can affect the power outputs. So even he was a little surprised, that my car put out as much as it did, with such low mileage.
All the best!
PS, Ahh! And a Mini fan too I see.. I have 2 of those.. Originals ones tho.. Albeit one of them with a Turbo ;)
ibizacupra
23-10-2002, 13:56
Originally posted by JONSPOPE
Bill,
See from your response that you deal with Forge products. My LEON has a FORGE DV 007 fitted. In standard form I hardly felt or heard) any difference but now I get a distinct noise from the valve every time I let my foot off the gas. It's a bit like a 'dump valve' noise but lower pitched.
Is this normal??
Trust you can help
Jon Now its chipped you get more boost and the DV dump sound is generally much louder.
Seems normal to me.
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
23-10-2002, 14:00
Originally posted by MarkP
just a question - that may apply to others...
how well is the RR calibrated?
I mean - could it be out & your beetle produced 150bhp & then 203bhp once chipped?
not seen a known to be good car vs a jabba car on the same rollers under controlled circumstances so this is me just asking a question.
I know Mike has seen some very low Ibiza 20VT figures too. In the US, most 1.8T's produce quite a lot higher figures than factory quoted ones... on VW's.
The dyno is an inertia one, which is a known mass which you accelerate by the turning torque... ie its inherantly accurate.
Not had mine on there yet, but that will happen soon, prior to the upgrade...
regards
Bill
ibizacupra
23-10-2002, 14:08
Originally posted by Chins
Nippa
An off the shelf chip from MTM offers over 90nm for the same car. That about 15lbft.
Jonathan
My "off the shelf chip" claimed a power level too.:rolleyes:
Only way to know is a before and after RR run.
Jabba do it, AmD do it, Stealth (APR) can do it.....
the engines seem to vary quite a lot, so I would be wary of any brand claiming (x)bhp and (y)torque.
I believed that once myself and look what happened to me. :(
regards
Bill
Bill
I have done before and after test on an independent RR when I bought an MTM conversion. In my case I got more than promised.
I notice your an Forge dealer. Are you wary of them as they make claims about gains on their web site ?
Jonathan
JONSPOPE
23-10-2002, 15:19
Jabbasport spent over 4 hours remapping my car. They also took great care over it (unlike some others). I got a before & after plot from the Dyno which gave a good indication of the BHP & TORQUE gains.
Some sour grapes about me thinks
Jon
Nippa
I will keep my eyes open for silver beetle!
The mini is my girlfriend’s car. It’s great fun to drive.:D
You noticed much difference in fuel consumption?
Jon
I have no sour grapes. My current car has no conversion on it. I had an MTM on one of my old S3's. If I keep the Leon Cupra R, I will get it chipped so the topic is of interest.
Certainly Jabbasport's conversion is cheap. Over the years Ive followed AMD's remaps and claims very closely. I have seen two identical cars with so called customs maps running differing boost levels and power. With MTM for example Ive seen pretty consistent boost levels (ie high). Mapping on a RR to my mind seems to leave more room for error, or that is my perception. Happy to hear the argument against.
If I was spending my money today, it would probably be with APR.
Jonathan
ibizacupra
23-10-2002, 16:44
Originally posted by Chins
Bill
I have done before and after test on an independent RR when I bought an MTM conversion. In my case I got more than promised.
I notice your an Forge dealer. Are you wary of them as they make claims about gains on their web site ?
Jonathan
I have heard good reports of MTM work particularly on Audi's where they focused on. Glad to hear your expectations were exceeded. Sounds good. :)
I am a Forge distributor yes, but will never promise any performance power gains for products like DV's for example. Less between gear lag yes, and certainly more reliable than the early Bosch diaphragm DV's, but not bolt on bhp.
I can't say I've seen or looked at their website to see a claim but do not doubt there is one.
regards
Bill
Bill
I was refering to Forge and their ECU claims.
http://www.forgemotorsport.net/products.asp?cat=eme&product=FMEMEBET
Cheers
Jonathan
ibizacupra
23-10-2002, 20:29
Originally posted by Chins
Bill
I was refering to Forge and their ECU claims.
http://www.forgemotorsport.net/products.asp?cat=eme&product=FMEMEBET
Cheers
Jonathan
Hmmm.
Not seen that. Thanks for the link
TUV approved eh....:rolleyes: I wonder who's mapping that is. :rolleyes:
Bill
Originally posted by Chins
Jon
I have no sour grapes. My current car has no conversion on it. I had an MTM on one of my old S3's. If I keep the Leon Cupra R, I will get it chipped so the topic is of interest.
Certainly Jabbasport's conversion is cheap. Over the years Ive followed AMD's remaps and claims very closely. I have seen two identical cars with so called customs maps running differing boost levels and power. With MTM for example Ive seen pretty consistent boost levels (ie high). Mapping on a RR to my mind seems to leave more room for error, or that is my perception. Happy to hear the argument against.
If I was spending my money today, it would probably be with APR.
Jonathan
How can mapping on an RR have more error probabilities. If the operator is proffesional, which Mike at Jabba definitely is, the map suits the car. Most chip companies have a one map fits all system so they garentee a minimum figure and some get better. My car has been done since March and has done about 7K - 8K with no problems. The map was very similar to Jabbas demo but had to be adjusted to get better results. So if thy had a one fits all policy mine would be down on power etc. I watched the car been done and it is a very thorough job with results been checked on the rollers regularly, not just bang it in and go. Jabba has a very good reputation as a VAG tuner and is only cheaper because of lower overheads and not wanting to rip people off.
I would recommend them to anyone and people on here who go to the trackdays will verify my cars performance, plus I only ever use 95RON unleaded.
As for RR results, the Upsolute chip I had first gave 199BHP at the installers rollers and 197BHP at Jabbas, so that's a comparison.
My mate had his Ibiza done and was 156.2 standard and 206 after, so that is a resonable gauge for me anyway. Mine showed 173 standard before the Upsolute chip, but early AQX engines seemed to give more anyway.
Originally posted by Chins
Jon
...I have seen two identical cars with so called customs maps running differing boost levels and power... Happy to hear the argument against.
If I was spending my money today, it would probably be with APR.
Jonathan
Different customer requirements/requests. What you described was not an "off the shelf" package but a "solution" to a unique problem. Drivers want different characteristics/driveability and the only way you can really give them exactly what they want is by a custom map (think of it a bit like bespoke suits).
Ed
Different customer requirements/requests. What you described was not an "off the shelf" package but a "solution" to a unique problem. Drivers want different characteristics/driveability and the only way you can really give them exactly what they want is by a custom map (think of it a bit like bespoke suits).
Not sure I'd agree. Certainly the customer whos car was 20lbft and 15bhp wouldnt. Plus AMD had only looked at his car the previous week to check everything was OK. There was a 2/3psi difference in boost pressures between the conversions.
I have yet to see a comprehensive answer from anyone on this subject, apart from "he spent 4 hours on the RR".
1. What parameters are changed
2. Does the operator ask you what boost pressure you would like to run
3. How large are the gains achieved on average over the base map
APR with their switchable maps still seems the best solution. With Jabba or AMD you have to choose fuel quality to obtain the right map. If mapped to run on 95, then you cannont obtain optimum performance on Optimax.
Jonathan
Originally posted by Chins
Not sure I'd agree. Certainly the customer whos car was 20lbft and 15bhp wouldnt. Plus AMD had only looked at his car the previous week to check everything was OK. There was a 2/3psi difference in boost pressures between the conversions.
Fair enough, but did they specifically ask for particular outputs/curves? As mentioned above, whilst all "same" engines should be exactly the same, they are in reality not. APR'd cars would get different results from car to car too. You can only extract the best from what you've got to start with. If you have a duff engine - tough luck! There's a lot of people on here who report below and over standrad output figures from the various 2.0L and 1.8T engines. The only comparison I can think of is in F1, where drivers often complain about 'bad' tyres despite them being 'exactly' the same as their previous set. I think the word blueprinitng comes to mind.
Originally posted by Chins
APR with their switchable maps still seems the best solution. With Jabba or AMD you have to choose fuel quality to obtain the right map. If mapped to run on 95, then you cannont obtain optimum performance on Optimax.
Jonathan
I think this is more an issue of 'fine tuning', but could be wrong. Customer says: "I use Optimax", Jabba say: " Ah! I can work with specifically this in mind to give you truly optimum performance"
Originally posted by Chins
Not sure I'd agree. Certainly the customer whos car was 20lbft and 15bhp wouldnt. Plus AMD had only looked at his car the previous week to check everything was OK. There was a 2/3psi difference in boost pressures between the conversions.
I have yet to see a comprehensive answer from anyone on this subject, apart from "he spent 4 hours on the RR".
1. What parameters are changed
2. Does the operator ask you what boost pressure you would like to run
3. How large are the gains achieved on average over the base map
APR with their switchable maps still seems the best solution. With Jabba or AMD you have to choose fuel quality to obtain the right map. If mapped to run on 95, then you cannont obtain optimum performance on Optimax.
Jonathan
If you're getting good results with 95 why would you want to use Optimax?
If you want to know what perameters are changed ask the tuners, they may not say for obvious reasons.
At Jabba you can basically have it done how you want. I have no boost spike in mine now so the power progression is smoother. No clutch problems like with some others.
Gains over base will be dependent on the car as with APR's chip and others. Put the same chip in two cars and you will probably get differing results as no two engines are identical.
Tell you what Chins.. if you want to know exactly how it's done.. Then the best person to speak to, is Michael at JabbaSport. Call him on 01733 211779. He's a friendly guy, so i'm sure he will be more than happy to answer your questions, and tell you exactly what he does with those 4 hours on the rolling road. Let us know how you get on ;)
But to enlighten you a little further.. The usual procedure is to start with a map from a previously converted similar car.. Now, when Michael did this on my car, the 1st dyno run showed 218bhp. Which is all the proof you need, that 1 chip/mapping does not give the same result in all cars. To get the best from an individual car/engine. It needs an individual map. Simple as that.
So, after the initial map is loaded, Michael will then tweak it further to suit. And in my case, that further tweaking got me another 10bhp, along with more torque.
Darren.. Not sure about fuel economy yet. As I have not even had the car back a week! Plus the novelty of 228bhp has yet to wear off, and I cant resist planting my foot into the carpet more than I usualy would.. So I dont expect fuel economy to improve on my 1st tank full! Having said that.. The fuel gauge really does not seem to have moved south any faster than it might normally do.. I'll update you on that later after 2/3 tanks fulls.
ibizacupra
24-10-2002, 14:34
You can buy a boost controller from Jabba if you wanted to run lower (stock) boost.
You get Cruise with APR which is nice, and fault code erase if you want to erase faults.
Horses for courses.
Best do the research and ask the right questions for sure. Very sensible approach given some of the BS associated with some tuners products and claims.:rolleyes:
regards
Bill
Cheers Nippa!
I met Michael at GTI International earlier this year. Very friendly and helpful.
The Jabba chip sounds like the chip for me.
With APR most people Seem to leave it on one program! The fastest one!
With the Cupra R they have added a Twin intercooler! A Cupra running say 220BHP has no such thing, does this not worry anybody? I.E. correct cooling of the head!
I have the money for a chip burning a hole in my pocket and I just can’t seem to make my mind up!
Reason for getting APR is there is a dealer close by.
Reason for getting Jabba is I can have it configured how I want.
Help!!!!!
:help:
The people that I have spoken to with APR use three modes.
1. 97Ron mode 90% of the time
2. 95Ron 5% of the time when no Super About
3. Original mode
i. When at a Garage being serviced
ii. When the better half drives
Plus there is also the option of really limiting the power incase that valet parker wants to take it for a spin :)
Jonathan
Intercoolers are nothing to do with cylinder head cooling as such. All they do is reduce the inlet air temperature to the engine, as it's usually heated up considerably by the turbo. Cooler air = denser air. Denser air = more air. More air = more power. Thats mostly the reason 1 of my few mods to my Beetle, was a vented wheel arch liner. It lets more outside air flow through the intercooler, improving efficiency of the intercooler. How much of a difference that small mod made, I dont know. But I am certain it helped.
All the Best, Paul
jabbasport
30-10-2002, 21:26
JabbaSports rolling road is accurate to within 1% & we do not OVERBOOST, OVER ADVANCE, OR RUN ANY ENGINES LEAN. This is guaranteed as we take the time to set up every car individually using an online emulator, complete with full sensor feed back. This is VERY time consuming, expensive & does not make financial sense, but we are in this business for the long haul!
Individually remapping as we do limit us to two cars a day Max, but we do know that every car leaves our premises set up correctly. Our opinion is that it’s not our fault if other companies do not want to adopt the same custom map policy, but we do not want to sacrifice our reputation for a fast buck.
Believe you me we have seen some very dubious maps!
The Jabba Team.
ibizacupra
30-10-2002, 21:57
Welcome Jabba Team ;)
Nice to see you here.
regards
Bill
Shock_Xe
30-10-2002, 23:14
Originally posted by Darren
The Jabba chip sounds like the chip for me.
With APR most people Seem to leave it on one program! The fastest one!
I have the money for a chip burning a hole in my pocket and I just can’t seem to make my mind up!
Reason for getting APR is there is a dealer close by.
Reason for getting Jabba is I can have it configured how I want.
Help!!!!!
:help:
Had the same problem, I got the £££ and needed a chip, It was a choice of Jabba or APR. I am in the birmingham area this week end and thought f@#k it, ill get it chipped while im up there and save myself an extra 2hrs each way at a later date. In the end i booked for stealth (APR) The only reason why i chose them over jabba was that they had a slot for saturday (less than a weeks notice) , it is closer to get to from my home location and my location on saturday if anything goes wrong. APR was a little more expensive but u get cruise! If jabba was as close as stealth and had a spot free i probably would have used jabba cause of individual mapping. Just hope i dont regret it!!!!!
Quick question i know jabba can stick it in permanat optimax mode, but will APR do this as its all i use. I know its an additional proggie but anyone tried asking they can set it to optimax only??
Thanks
Mike
Originally posted by jabbasport
JabbaSports rolling road is accurate to within 1% & we do not OVERBOOST, OVER ADVANCE, OR RUN ANY ENGINES LEAN. This is guaranteed as we take the time to set up every car individually using an online emulator, complete with full sensor feed back. This is VERY time consuming, expensive & does not make financial sense, but we are in this business for the long haul!
Individually remapping as we do limit us to two cars a day Max, but we do know that every car leaves our premises set up correctly. Our opinion is that it’s not our fault if other companies do not want to adopt the same custom map policy, but we do not want to sacrifice our reputation for a fast buck.
Believe you me we have seen some very dubious maps!
The Jabba Team.
I believe my car is a testiment to the workmanship. 9k miles and still runs sweet, giving 32mpg average regularly and 34+ on runs. Keep up the good work Jabba Team :D
Tavia4x4
31-10-2002, 08:31
Another vote for Jabba, the car has done nearly 10k since with no problems, just pure drivability.
It's happy mooching around at 30, or hard throttle cross country, it has totally transformed the car, and surprises a few people to say the least.
Would wholeheartedly reccomend!
Ian.
JONSPOPE
31-10-2002, 09:09
The beauty of a turbo engine is that you can still get good economy (IF YOU CAN RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO ACCESS ALL THAT LOVELY TORQUE). Found my self way too early when going to a meeting in Stratford so just kept with the traffic and no 'foot down' sprints. Got over 40 mpg for the trip, not bad for a car that can worry almost anything out there.
Jon
Welcome to the board Jabbasport, good to have you on here :)
:cheers:
Brokenlegs
31-10-2002, 13:38
Hi guys just signed up to this board after finding this site and reading the posts with interest.
I own a 2002 leon 1.8VT and very please with it, I was due to get it chipped a while back at Jabba but broke both legs in a motorcycle racing accident 5 months ago. I hope to be able to get it chipped before Xmas.
The guys there do seem very helpfull and understanding as i have let them down twice due to operations etc.
Difference between 2 cars is very evident as I have been doing rollons with a mate who has leon cupra in stock trim same as mine and I leave him behind every time. The only mod I have done is wind the waste gate up a little as i thought the turbo tailed off far to early and this has made a difference.
In stock trim i am very impressed with the car and was following a M3 BMW along the ? and he was on his limiter in top 155mph basically i got in his toe and he dragged me along. I was doing 6600 revs in 6th showing 154 on the clock about 15m behind the beema. We stopped at the services for a quick chat and a piss take as 45k beema could not out run 13k seat.
Going try and get my arse down to Alconbry tomorrow, so if u see a chap walking around on crutches with a dirty blue leon then thats me.
I wont be driving on the day as I need to get fit for my acsar drive next year and dont need anymore set backs.
Just about to order a forge DV current price i have been given is £80 plus postage so if anyone can beat that u have my order.
See you all soon chaps,
Mark.
:p :o
I guess the M3 was an old shape. Ive owned a new shape M3 SMG and Leon Cupra at the same time and the performace difference was/is huge.
Just jumped from an RS4 into a Cupra R and the gaps still massive.
Jonathan
Brokenlegs
31-10-2002, 14:25
Erm nope it was a new shape not sure on the spec as I didnt ask just a dark metalic blue M3 coupe with 18" wheels. It may have been a badged up 330 dont know but he was flat out with nealry 1200 revs to go in top and was punching the steering wheel in frustration as it would not let him go any faster...lol
The only car that has embarssed me big time so far was a nissan skyline which took the piss, most peeps back out at 140 but the little cupra still pulls to 145 before pissing in the wind. I nail the little cupra to an inch off its life when I'm on a mission its not all about speed its about the readyness to get on the gass before they do and that is the only reason i kept up. When I didnt get on the gas early and lost the toe he was disapearing in the distance. Being in the toe can add upto 10-15% etc easily. Sitting on the limiter on my old ZX6R behind and R1 doing an indicated 180+ when the book speed and measured speed of around 160ish in Germany of course.
When I mean in the toe I mean inches of the behind the car/bike infont.
What do you think of your Cupra R as I was going to trade in the Cupra but was unsure if the 3k difference in price tag was really worth it.
BTW my friend owns Radteck the company who makes the intercoolers etc for Jabba he is going to do one for mine when i let him have the car for long enough to get a pattern, should be reasonably priced to.
He has allready looked at the standard intercooler and it can be improved by 25-30% just by replacing it with an after market one.
The one he is doing for me is smiliar to the ones sold by Starperfomance but incorperating the origonal intercooler position with a baffle to an intercooler behind the Bumber.
Mark.
me and my mum had a race when i last picked my car up from servicing, i had the legs upto 50mph, then her m3 opened up, i had no chance, they are REALLY fast, and i mean REALLY!
Originally posted by Chins
Looks like time for a RR day :).
I to would be a bit dubious of Jabba's numbers. I wouldnt doubt their chip, but most tuners get roughly the same out of the 1.8T engine.
Jonathan
Agree entirely!
Rolling road included.
My chip runs at 13-15psi or just over 1 bar with approx 210bhp at flywheel with other mods as well, 204 with chip alone ( recorded in real world driving conditions on the road) along with APR, MTM , etc. About 6 chip tuning companies all get around 204-212 bhp for vvt engine at this boost with fuel + timing maps to match. Jabba=sameboost levels but 230bhp. I think not, no matter how much other fettling is involved. I also doubt a standard engine can be 20bhp over stock too, up to 10bhp at the most on rare occasions.
Also I always use optimax and it is good, but not that good.
However, just my opinion, I stand corrected if this can be proved on an independant rolling road against other cars on the same day.
Paul
ibizacupra
05-11-2002, 17:04
Originally posted by psrob
Agree entirely!
Rolling road included.
My chip runs at 13-15psi or just over 1 bar with approx 210bhp at flywheel with other mods as well, 204 with chip alone ( recorded in real world driving conditions on the road) along with APR, MTM , etc. About 6 chip tuning companies all get around 204-212 bhp for vvt engine at this boost with fuel + timing maps to match. Jabba=sameboost levels but 230bhp. I think not, no matter how much other fettling is involved. I also doubt a standard engine can be 20bhp over stock too, up to 10bhp at the most on rare occasions.
Also I always use optimax and it is good, but not that good.
However, just my opinion, I stand corrected if this can be proved on an independant rolling road against other cars on the same day.
Paul
Check the dynoplots and power claims section for an example of Jabbasports dyno on a car which has been on many RR's. A|ways reading the same 189bhp +/-4bhp either side.
Guess what! it read 189bhp on Jabbas RR also.
The dyno Jabbasport use is an inertia one, hence inherantly very accurate. Accelerate a known mass type accurate, the calcs are straight forward from there, and the runs are very repeatable.
The RR is new, and is better than 1% accuracy according to the manufacturer. Why would you doubt it?
As for an independant RR! hehehe... there is'nt one is there. :p
It is also a fact that some VAG engines produce significantly more power than spec'd. See PD diesels for example. Almost without exception, tuners are seeing way higher standard power figures than spec'd. eg 130pd doing 145 std, and 150pd doing 175std.
The 20VT does have quite significant variances between models. Ibizas seem to be the worst to suffer by far though, and some really low examples which don't respond to anyones chips.
I would say Jabbas rollers are very accurate. Their results stand I think.
There will be people who do not believe you can get 300+bhp either from the mods which Jabba do, bu tI can assure it they can, and do, frequently. Seeing is believing :D and driving is even better :)
;)
Bill
jabbasport
05-11-2002, 20:16
A slight misunderstanding here about the VVT engines spec!
The 1 Bar boost can not & should not be forced to hold the maximum power point, for efficiency & reliability reasons so maximum power is always achieved at the sub 1 Bar point, often as low as 0.55 Bar (AGU engine code). The VVT engines have a K03 with a much larger & aggressive compressor wheel almost K04 size complete with a larger but very well designed intake pipe which matches the turbo inlet properly & hence normally holds 0.2 to 0.25 Bar more, only 0.1 behind a K04 which has the same exhaust AR.
Yes, we have seen only 200 to 206 from some other chips, but we are quite willing to reduce the power output, at the customer’s request. As an example we recently had an Octavia RS in for a customer appraisal, chipped by an unnamed company that only produced a spiky 199 BHP!
Our policy is that we test all products we intend to sell, if they don’t work better than the stock item we will not sell to the public regardless of profit.
PS. If anyone would like to sell the standard alloy intake pipe they are left with, we are interested!!!!
The Jabba Team.:)
Jabbasport,
i'm about to get a bigger K03 (K03-53 used on 180Bhp 1.8Ts) for my ibiza cupra. is it safe to hold the 1 bar boost on them all the way up thru the limiter 6800? As far as i know the most powerful APR chips hold about 1.2 bar (spiking ~1.5) on these turbos. Also, what is the highest boost i should sustain on my small K03?
Shock_Xe
06-11-2002, 00:10
Originally posted by Sim
Jabbasport,
i'm about to get a bigger K03 (K03-53 used on 180Bhp 1.8Ts) for my ibiza cupra. is it safe to hold the 1 bar boost on them all the way up thru the limiter 6800? As far as i know the most powerful APR chips hold about 1.2 bar (spiking ~1.5) on these turbos. Also, what is the highest boost i should sustain on my small K03?
So APR do a 1.2 program??? didnt see it on the site
ibizacupra
06-11-2002, 08:33
Originally posted by Sim
Jabbasport,
i'm about to get a bigger K03 (K03-53 used on 180Bhp 1.8Ts) for my ibiza cupra. is it safe to hold the 1 bar boost on them all the way up thru the limiter 6800? As far as i know the most powerful APR chips hold about 1.2 bar (spiking ~1.5) on these turbos. Also, what is the highest boost i should sustain on my small K03?
Are you sure? 1.2bar?
Unless things have changed (and I know they said they have a new program for the Beezer), they used to run 1bar max.
Thats what it did on my car when tested.
(much better than what I currently have, spikey, overboosty POS)
Bill
ibizacupra
06-11-2002, 08:36
Originally posted by Sim
Jabbasport,
i'm about to get a bigger K03 (K03-53 used on 180Bhp 1.8Ts) for my ibiza cupra. is it safe to hold the 1 bar boost on them all the way up thru the limiter 6800? As far as i know the most powerful APR chips hold about 1.2 bar (spiking ~1.5) on these turbos. Also, what is the highest boost i should sustain on my small K03?
High boost, high rpm from a small K03/04 will produce high heat and induction temps.
More boost is'nt always more power.
(if you compress it too much, it gets hotter and produces less power)
Bill
Welcome to the Jabba Team!
As you can see from their post the boys at Jabba know what they are talking about…
When the time is right for my Cupra R it will be making the journey up to Jabba for its Chip!
Sod the traction! I want every single horse I can get for 4th, 5th &6th…
:devil:
See you soon Jabba Team!:D
Im talking about US chip tuners (data taken from vwvortex) and yes they sustain above(!) 1 bar and peak around 1.5 bar (the most agressive ones). But this is with the bigger K03 which they call "K03 Sport" or "K03/K04 hybrid" (this is what the Leons have). Mosser also runs a quite high boost chip as far as i know and still no problem with the turbo. I can get these fairly cheap (a lot cheaper that a matching K04) so i'm considering a swap. K04-23 is also available but that would involve some "major" mods as it is not a bolt on swap. I'm gonna try the 0.85-0.9 bar (sustained of course) on my small K03 though.
"How much PSI does the APR chip run"
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=568647
Shock_Xe
06-11-2002, 22:15
Originally posted by Sim
Im talking about US chip tuners (data taken from vwvortex) and yes they sustain above(!) 1 bar and peak around 1.5 bar (the most agressive ones). But this is with the bigger K03 which they call "K03 Sport" or "K03/K04 hybrid" (this is what the Leons have). Mosser also runs a quite high boost chip as far as i know and still no problem with the turbo. I can get these fairly cheap (a lot cheaper that a matching K04) so i'm considering a swap. K04-23 is also available but that would involve some "major" mods as it is not a bolt on swap. I'm gonna try the 0.85-0.9 bar (sustained of course) on my small K03 though.
"How much PSI does the APR chip run"
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=568647
If you dont mind me asking how much can u source them for???
Also if i upgraded to a k-04 turbo, whould i have any problems with the APR existing chip and would benefits still be seen?
The "K03sport" upgrade (including labour) would cost ~300 GBP. Very limited/restricted one time supply. If i can get one, i will max my original K03 out and check how does it take it :devil:
You would benefit from a K04 upgrade, but you would benefit a lot more if you also would remap the car again (let a higher level of boost to sustain up to rev limiter). K03 chips cuts boost after 5500.
Shock_Xe
07-11-2002, 13:22
Ho can i find out which one is on mine (k03/k03 sport) Is there a model number difference or something?
Just responding to a few posts a while back in this thread regarding rolling road measurements.
As I understand it (and all feel free to correct me), the manufacturers claimed output is for a carefully put together engine measured from the crank with no ancillaries, to reach this figure with your mass produced car would be very good indeed (but not impossible). People here seem to be talking about engine BHP which their local tuner has 'calculated' from wheel BHP ,much safer to just stick to measured wheel BHP for the purposes of comparison IMO. There is a pretty accurate ratio for converting wheel BHP into engine BHP (which is different on RWD and FWD applications), I'll try and find it. Their are some RR's (using Bosch equipment IIRC) that use a really dodgy method for calculating BHP lost through the transmission, which is definately way off being correct.
Also, some RR's that also have an onsite shop are renowned for being 'optimistic' to help sell their products. Well you would wouldn't you?
There is an informative UK web site somewhere about rolling roads from a top motorsport engine tuner , I'll try to find it tomorrow.
ibizacupra
08-11-2002, 08:41
Originally posted by Tucker
Just responding to a few posts a while back in this thread regarding rolling road measurements.
As I understand it (and all feel free to correct me), the manufacturers claimed output is for a carefully put together engine measured from the crank with no ancillaries, to reach this figure with your mass produced car would be very good indeed (but not impossible). People here seem to be talking about engine BHP which their local tuner has 'calculated' from wheel BHP ,much safer to just stick to measured wheel BHP for the purposes of comparison IMO. There is a pretty accurate ratio for converting wheel BHP into engine BHP (which is different on RWD and FWD applications), I'll try and find it. Their are some RR's (using Bosch equipment IIRC) that use a really dodgy method for calculating BHP lost through the transmission, which is definately way off being correct.
Also, some RR's that also have an onsite shop are renowned for being 'optimistic' to help sell their products. Well you would wouldn't you?
There is an informative UK web site somewhere about rolling roads from a top motorsport engine tuner , I'll try to find it tomorrow.
You cannot apply a general calculation for working back from @ the wheels measured power, to calculated flywheel power.
So many variables. Tyre pressure, tyre compound, tyre size, wheel size, gearbox type, gearbox oil (cold or hot) etc etc etc
Dave Walker makes some good RR dyno comments in his book about DIY fuel injection and engine management system.
Jabbasports rollers, as an example, are an inertia type, which is a set of rollers of known mass (250Kg), which get accelerated by the car. Torque is calc'd from that, and bhp from that, against rpm. When they do a power run, the trigger point of measuring is set, and a full power acceleration run is done. At max rpm, the clutch is dipped, with the car still ingear and the slow down run is again measured and a "losses" figure gained.
I know there are "rules of thumb" which get applied to dyno @ the wheels as a guide figure.
Inertia dyno's would be inherantly more accurate for power run measurements than Eddy brake ones, but do not allow for steady state loading which is very usefull when mapping n/a cars on fully mappabel ECU's etc.
regards
Bill
Originally posted by Shock_Xe
Ho can i find out which one is on mine (k03/k03 sport) Is there a model number difference or something?
All ibizas have got the small K03s (including Ibiza R too as far as i know). According to my research in this topic the small K03s got a model number beginning with K03-2x the bigger ones K03-5x.
I'll try and find the website soon (oh why oh why don't I always bookmark intersting sites :confused: ), but basically it explains why the rr's that calculate losses with the car coasting on the run-down (not sure if that's what you mean) are inaccurate. You can check the math your self, it does seem to make sense.
And as for the formula (which again I'll try to find...not being very helpful am I :mad: ), the times I've had standard vehicles on the rollers (way back in the days when Mitcham Motors had a rolling road...and they didn't give engine output figures), the figure I got from the dyno was pretty much what I'd calculated from the manufaturers claimed output.
Tell you what, I'll try to find the website now, and failing that later tonite at work.
Having said all that, I wouldn't what to step on Dave's Walkers toes, he's the man.
OK, found the site, it's www.pumaracing.co.uk
I suggest anyone that cares about rolling roads (using them or their data), or tuning in general (doesn't cover turbo's IIRC), has a read of this site.
OK, sorry guys, last post then I'm off to work (work on a Friday night sucks!).
The page on 'coastdown' measurements is worth a read:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/coastdwn.htm
Enjoy!
ibizacupra
09-11-2002, 16:58
Originally posted by Tucker
OK, sorry guys, last post then I'm off to work (work on a Friday night sucks!).
The page on 'coastdown' measurements is worth a read:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/coastdwn.htm
Enjoy!
Aha.. Dave Baker.. Puma.
Best comparison of all is stick a stock car on the dyno and run it up... upgrade it and repeat the test. You get an increase of "whatever" and thats that.
different rollers, different days, different readings sometimes.
Stealths rollers seem to match Jabbasports on my car, both using coastdown measurements.
I know I trust them. (just think tho... if my 189bhp @ flywheel is overstated what does that make the RSD/Oettinger "210" conversion? :p ) - LOL
regards
Bill