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Old 04-06-2008, 13:49   #1
Al
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Exclamation Change in design of TFSi engine. Important issue with fuel pump and engine wear

After several conversations with people in the know yesterday, I learned that VAG have modified the design of the TFSi engine and that the new variants coming out will no longer have the camshaft driven fuel pump. Some of these engines are already in the UK and the result of the fuel delivery being improved is better efficiency on the engine among other things.

I wonder if the 2009 FR and Cupra will have this engine fitted instead of the BWA/BWJ code?

In addition, with regard to the issue of cam lobe wear, it turns out there is a follower which connects to the fuel pump in side the engine. The earlier US GTis had a slightly different camshaft design, and the follower which starts as black in colour, we found to be wearing, and as a result turning silver. Left alone, this will wear through and then start wear on the camshaft, hence the engine wear. This could develop on newer TFSi engines so attention needs to be given to this part of the engine it seems.

It has been suggested that the pump be removed periodically to inpsect the follower beside the camshaft for wear and if it is anything other than black, that it be replaced (cost is £18).

Further, with regard to the fuel pump upgrades available where the internals are swapped for uprated equivalents, a lot of care needs to be taken when taking off the original pump, fitting the new internals and refitting it to the car as the tolerances in the assembly are so close. Also if not refitted correctly on to the engine, the camshaft may be in line for a good bit of damage. For those looking to do this modification, you need to be careful, or think about a prebuilt pump from the likes of APR for apprx £800.

Also, with regard to fuel delivery and remaps, it seems that tuners codes are being written to adjust boost to counter the lack of actual fuel pressure vs required as on tuned cars, 125Bar of fuel can be requested but actual fuel pressure is 90 Bar or so. 80 Bar or less will see the fuel cuts come in that some have been getting. The net result of all this is that the car is not making use of the potential it has down to a fuel shortage. With the uprated pump on mapped cars, the areas where fuelling is short by 33% or so will see a marked improvement in that area of the rev range down to better fuelling. In addition, the pump is better able to deliver the 130Bar that is needed for stage 2 code. In addition to this, an uprated pump on standard code will work with no problems and as it uses the standard pump casing it has OEM appearance.

By all accounts, it seems that the pump upgrade is potentially worthwhile so wear can be assessed on the cam, fuel shortage can be addressed and a stronger remap applied.

Food for thought.
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:04   #2
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Cracking info, no doubt that will mean extra work for me in the future
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:15   #3
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On my Octy's BWA engine i have it remapped and nothing else. I have done logs via vagcom and it keeps a nice constant actual 125 bar and peaks at 128 bar up the top of the rev range and i have no fuel cut. It seems ( but really can't prove it yet) that the BWA (not sure about the cupra over 300bhp) doesn't need an uprated pump. I have heard the fuel cut issue is in the software. Time will tell as i'm aiming for a nice 280-290bhp with a few more hardware mods.

I hope there is truth in what i'm saying because i think the uprated pumps are hard on the cam.
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:21   #4
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Been meaning to post something myself with regards to this, i'll make this sticky as it's an important issue that TFSI owners should be aware of !!

Good info regarding this problem is available to view here on APR's website. It includes the technical information issued by Audi as well as fitting instructions for their replacement pump.

http://www.goapr.com/VW/support/fsi_...stallation.pdf

Awesome GTI checked the cam bucket on my car last week, when mine had the APR high pressure pump fitted.

My 07 Cupra was checked at the time and found to be unaffected, but they have seen this damage on standard new cars with fairly low mileage.

So it's very important they are checked.

As an example Awesome's stage 3 Golf suffered from this issue, they took some photo's to illustrate the damage it caused. if the problem is caught early enough, they can simply replace the cam follower bucket, which is relatively cheap and OEM solution.

I've been lead to believe if the cam bucket wears through it can lead onto damage the cam shaft and that requires an expensive repair In the worst case it may even lead to engine failure if the pump were to seize up.



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Old 04-06-2008, 14:22   #5
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My 2006 TFSI had an "A" cam and the follower failed. I had it replaces with new follower, new "H" pump and a "B". At the time of failure I had 35.000Km with a remap, exhaust, intake and intercooler.

Now I have a slghtly bigger turbo and 317Hp.

I am checking the cam follower every 7500Km but I am not a redliner. Those who are pushing the engine constantly above 6000 should check it more often
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:29   #6
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With regard to the cam follower issue, I read on VW Vortex Here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3750088
that this issue only seems to happen to a particular camshaft, and it's not the follower, but the camshaft that wears, depositing metal on the follower, building up heat and eventually failing...
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:31   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor23 View Post
With regard to the cam follower issue, I read on VW Vortex Here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3750088
that this issue only seems to happen to a particular camshaft, and it's not the follower, but the camshaft that wears, depositing metal on the follower, building up heat and eventually failing...
I read that too, but the follower can wear as well and when it does, thats when other damage can come about.
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:35   #8
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Awesome GTI indicated they have seen this on some new cars, so it's either a design issue the manufacturer thought they solved with the revised parts but it's turned out it hasn't. Or the production lines have continued to use problem parts during manufacture.

The newer engines appear to be described as TSI now, they have dropped the TFSI. Even though these 2.0L engines are still turbo only. Not supercharged and turbocharged like the 1.4TSI for example.
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:37   #9
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This was a useful thread i was sent regarding other known issues on the TFSI engine that may well be useful to know about.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3366754&nbsp
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Old 04-06-2008, 14:44   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBOYD View Post
This was a useful thread i was sent regarding other known issues on the TFSI engine that may well be useful to know about.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3366754&nbsp
Excellent spot Z, very helpful and concise...
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Old 04-06-2008, 16:37   #11
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There have been incidents where the latest cam followers with the latest guel pumps and the latest cams have failed and caused considerable damage to the engine (2000 Euros or so).

I know of one Leon FR without any mods that the mechanics where fishings the followers pieces from inside the engine.
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Old 04-06-2008, 21:42   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBOYD View Post
As an example Awesome's stage 3 Golf suffered from this issue, they took some photo's to illustrate the damage it caused. if the problem is caught early enough, they can simply replace the cam follower bucket, which is relatively cheap and OEM solution.

I've been lead to believe if the cam bucket wears through it can lead onto damage the cam shaft and that requires an expensive repair In the worst case it may even lead to engine failure if the pump were to seize up.
mark, out of curiousity how many miles have you covered?, i know you say its largely irrelevant but i know yours is of a similar age to mine and possible has used similar 'batches' of components.

does replacing the cam bucket with a new one erradicate the problem or merely put it back to a zero milage condition with potential to wear again? (hopeully theyve improved them!) if this does elliminate the potenial for failure then for £18 surely we should all do it for peace of mind.

and lastly, if the design has been changed then is this classed as an admition of faulty design and therefore any damage should be covered under warrenty, if not some sort of recall action before that?
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Old 04-06-2008, 21:56   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisboyle999 View Post
mark, out of curiousity how many miles have you covered?, i know you say its largely irrelevant but i know yours is of a similar age to mine and possible has used similar 'batches' of components.

does replacing the cam bucket with a new one erradicate the problem or merely put it back to a zero milage condition with potential to wear again? (hopeully theyve improved them!) if this does elliminate the potenial for failure then for £18 surely we should all do it for peace of mind.

and lastly, if the design has been changed then is this classed as an admition of faulty design and therefore any damage should be covered under warrenty, if not some sort of recall action before that?
Not all have been affected, that's the trouble. It's a bit like coil packs and mafs, they never really admitted responsibility for those being flaky on the 1.8T

It would appear that periodic inspection and replacement of the cam bucket seems to be their solution to this problem. Not sure it eradicates it, as you point out it just puts the pump back to a zero status. So in effect it's like a wear and tear part that need's inspecting and replacing.

Awesome checked mine and it was fine, no wear from what i was told. It should be covered under warranty, but in the past SEAT dealers appear to be the last to know about these things.

In some cases the technicians may of got a bulletin about and just asked to check them when they go in for service work. They may be replacing them now under warranty situations now, but they don't voice it to the owners they just undertake the inspection and fix.

In the majority this would probably cover the problem, but for high milers it may mean they exceed the norm and risk damage. It also doesn't really explain what will happen once the car's go out of warranty.
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Old 05-06-2008, 21:32   #14
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Does anybody know the engine numbers that this may happen on, as I'm about to buy a 57plate Cupra k1 and I don't really like what I'm reading.

Cheers in advance.
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Old 06-06-2008, 14:43   #15
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nope, herein lies the problem, many a theory on vwvortex about what engines are affected, i wouldnt worry too much though, if you keep your car dealer serviced on time, and ask them to check the cam follower, you will be ok.
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Old 06-06-2008, 15:08   #16
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Can the cam follower / camshaft not be treated with a cryo process to make then stronger so they do not receive the wear in the first place? Maybe that is enough to prevent the wear from getting to bad before a check is done.
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Old 06-06-2008, 15:53   #17
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Quote:
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Does anybody know the engine numbers that this may happen on, as I'm about to buy a 57plate Cupra k1 and I don't really like what I'm reading.

Cheers in advance.
FYI, the Cupra engine code is BWJ.

It would seem that there is no definite answer to which engines/codes might be affected by this.

However it is an easy thing to check and replace - the TFSi engine is still more potent and efficient than its main rivals engines like the 2.5T in the Ford Focus and the 2.0T in the Astra VXR.
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Old 06-06-2008, 20:08   #18
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The early AXX coded 2.0TFSI engines have the A CAM but are ok, its the later 2006 engines which had the suspected 'soft' A Cams which dealer will check and replace.

Unfortunately its going to be one of those things on this engine which your best to check every 10k or so - doesnt take long, just make sure you release the pressure before removing the pump.

My cam follower after 45k of which just over 10k remapped, I had a new one so swapped it anyway when I had the pump internals done.

Pic 1 Pic 2 Pic 3

This was 'ok', couldnt feel any obvious wear marks with your finger nail.

All Cupra CAMs will be the stronger type, some ealry FR owners may want get the CAM checked to make sure its not a dodgy one
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Old 07-06-2008, 01:31   #19
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Can the cam follower / camshaft not be treated with a cryo process to make then stronger so they do not receive the wear in the first place? Maybe that is enough to prevent the wear from getting to bad before a check is done.
Found a site (as an example) showing the theory behind the deep cryo treatments. Maybe when people get one done, we could collectively get a batch done so that the treatment cost could be shared? Assuming this treatment bears fruit.
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:45   #20
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is it the fuel cuts that cause the engine management light to come on when driving it hard?
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