1.8T not suitable for motorsport? - SEAT Cupra.net

Jonny95 SXE · 09-02-2010, 22:52

during a "discussion" on another forum i have been told by a generics mapping specialist that the 1.8T engine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"20 Valve head is not strong enough thermal. Cause troubles in engines over 400 BPH"

and after questioning this comment was told

"i saying about engine for motorsport. engine everyday is a different matter"

so what are peoples thoughts?

**WeeJase** · 09-02-2010, 23:58

why did they not answer in English?
What is BPH?

*pj1985* · 10-02-2010, 00:16

I think the fact Bill has done a few seasons running over 400bhp proves this is not the case but what problems exactly are they talking about?

ibizacupra · 10-02-2010, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny95 SXE

during a "discussion" on another forum i have been told by a generics mapping specialist that the 1.8T engine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"20 Valve head is not strong enough thermal. Cause troubles in engines over 400 BPH"

and after questioning this comment was told

"i saying about engine for motorsport. engine everyday is a different matter"

so what are peoples thoughts?

Proves this guy knows very little about them then does'nt it

Zero "head" issues from racing in excess of 500bhp
cooling has never been a problem
wonder where he got the info from

Mook · 10-02-2010, 08:37

The power of the interweb is great. The guy seems to be talking out of his arse...

Jonny95 SXE · 10-02-2010, 08:57

now there has been a load of pictures of engines posted,

ok,

and the following details,

MODIFICATIONS
Turbo Garrett GT2871R BB
JE forged pistons Pistons
H Carrillo forged connecting rods WMC
Ferrea Valves
Machining head
Exhaust collector-made
Blow off valve Greddy Type-RS
Oli Cooler B & M
front intercooler
Stand-alone Computer DTA S60
RC 550 cc injectors
Exhaust system stainless steel 70 mm
Clutch and flywheel SPEC

POWER: 416 hp Torque 470Nm. Boost 1.7 bar

I'm running a 2871R but doubt it would flow enough to get over 400...

what do you guys think?

ibizacupra · 10-02-2010, 12:09

I dont see a GT2871 making >400bhp the spec does'nt say which a/r hotside tho
GT2871's I've seen and done so far made 363bhp on stock bore 0.63hotside, 1.8bar smallport, and 382bhp(?) on 2ltr motor 0.86 hotside.. same kinda boost. Both these are Dyno dynamics figures

Seems a stretch to me.. but on a happy dyno who knows..
BD say they make 400bhp on a 2871..

Dyno Lottery applies

DaveV6 · 10-02-2010, 19:09

total crock, i found a vid on youtube of an engine company who tune the vag 1.8t engine for f2 cars and they were running 450 bhp.

Dave

**sssstew** · 11-02-2010, 03:08

link and shame....

ibizacupra · 11-02-2010, 08:21

Mounttune make the F2 engines

Backdraft · 11-02-2010, 10:05

Ran our TT in the Britcar 24 hour! It did get a little warm when the headgasket blew after 15 hours, but the engine was getting on a bit anyway.

**DPJ** · 11-02-2010, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by sssstew

link and shame....

http://octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=35087

Jonny95 SXE · 11-02-2010, 10:57

i didnt do it!

ibizacupra · 11-02-2010, 11:03

he comes up with no substantiated evidence at all
maybe a personal on off experience has skewed his thinking -

**Fl@pper** · 11-02-2010, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibizacupra

Mounttune make the F2 engines

thats the one - just been looking for the name

*Wilko* · 11-02-2010, 13:48

Well to add fuel to the fire, I had a conversation a couple of years ago with an engineer who did some development work on the heads for the palmer sport cars for audi. He mentioned that they modified later TT 225 heads to get better cooling, as they were having issues with the exhaust valves on the middle 2 cylinders

Proper motorsport though, not people with tuned cars doing trackdays.

Know lots of people (below 400hp) who've had exhaust valve problems on 1.8T's in non motorsport situations.

*pj1985* · 11-02-2010, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilko

Know lots of people (below 400hp) who've had exhaust valve problems on 1.8T's in non motorsport situations.

What problems though? We all know the valves are a weak spot especially with the stress of higher rpms and 300bhp+ power. Upgraded valves that I have heard of breaking are due to poor fitment or using the wrong springs etc nothing to do with heat which is what has been said is the problem here.

ibizacupra · 11-02-2010, 21:53

more to the cooling than just power level xxx being quoted...
turbo, manifold, egts seen from that config etc...
FPA cars running smaller turbos for example compared with larger installs.

not a direct comparison to me..

eg a k04 working hard produces a lot more thermal stress than a bigger turbo and manifold like gt30 for example.. gt30 producing a lot more "power" as a headline, but a lot easier thermally..
we all know how hot k04's run when cranked up.. to 280bhp or more, but a gt30 is barely moving for these total airflows and is not generating anywhere near as much heat from its manifold/turbo setup

*ryan_s3* · 13-02-2010, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny95 SXE

now there has been a load of pictures of engines posted,

ok,

and the following details,

MODIFICATIONS
Turbo Garrett GT2871R BB
JE forged pistons Pistons
H Carrillo forged connecting rods WMC
Ferrea Valves
Machining head
Exhaust collector-made
Blow off valve Greddy Type-RS
Oli Cooler B & M
front intercooler
Stand-alone Computer DTA S60
RC 550 cc injectors
Exhaust system stainless steel 70 mm
Clutch and flywheel SPEC

POWER: 416 hp Torque 470Nm. Boost 1.7 bar

I'm running a 2871R but doubt it would flow enough to get over 400...

what do you guys think?

A set of 550 injectors would be max'd at 400hp

DK_GTI_RACER · 14-05-2010, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan_s3

A set of 550 injectors would be max'd at 400hp

Not really - depends on a lot, injector duty cycle in each cylinder etc. - a rule of tumb is the following formula 550cc/5 *4 = 440bhp or 400whp, but same injectors arent always giving same amount, this is why you also should buy injectors only from a supplier who says they ASNU fuel test each set, one set of injectors that factory referenced to 450cc might make either 440 or 470cc....my injectors i had tested at DTC raceteam, a special open house/dyno event, and 2 of my injectors gave a lot more then they where suppose to at 4bar fpr, but at 3bar they all gave the same, the 2 injectors still gave bit more, but not something worth talking about, the lowest 2 injectors gave about 550cc and the other 2 570cc, and i installed those in the 2 middle cylinders for extra cooling since they get hotter...but just shows how different injectors can act, anyhow in safe zone at 90% efficiency of injectors 400bhp would be max on 550cc, at 100% you can push to 440bhp if you ask me...

09-02-2010, 22:52	#1
Jonny95 SXE The Irish Contender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	1.8T not suitable for motorsport? during a "discussion" on another forum i have been told by a generics mapping specialist that the 1.8T engine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "20 Valve head is not strong enough thermal. Cause troubles in engines over 400 BPH" and after questioning this comment was told "i saying about engine for motorsport. engine everyday is a different matter" so what are peoples thoughts? __________________ 0 - Home in 11 seconds. 8v Cupra Sport eibach -40mm, Supersprint, chipped, Piper X Viper '01 Cupra 20VT GT2871R!!!PICS HERE

10-02-2010, 00:16	#3
pj1985 1.8T Power Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Hampshire/Surrey Posts: 2,529	I think the fact Bill has done a few seasons running over 400bhp proves this is not the case but what problems exactly are they talking about? __________________ IHI gone but not forgotten!

10-02-2010, 08:57	#6
Jonny95 SXE The Irish Contender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	now there has been a load of pictures of engines posted, ok, and the following details, MODIFICATIONS Turbo Garrett GT2871R BB JE forged pistons Pistons H Carrillo forged connecting rods WMC Ferrea Valves Machining head Exhaust collector-made Blow off valve Greddy Type-RS Oli Cooler B & M front intercooler Stand-alone Computer DTA S60 RC 550 cc injectors Exhaust system stainless steel 70 mm Clutch and flywheel SPEC POWER: 416 hp Torque 470Nm. Boost 1.7 bar I'm running a 2871R but doubt it would flow enough to get over 400... what do you guys think? __________________ 0 - Home in 11 seconds. 8v Cupra Sport eibach -40mm, Supersprint, chipped, Piper X Viper '01 Cupra 20VT GT2871R!!!PICS HERE

10-02-2010, 12:09	#7
ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: glos.uk Posts: 25,225	I dont see a GT2871 making >400bhp the spec does'nt say which a/r hotside tho GT2871's I've seen and done so far made 363bhp on stock bore 0.63hotside, 1.8bar smallport, and 382bhp(?) on 2ltr motor 0.86 hotside.. same kinda boost. Both these are Dyno dynamics figures Seems a stretch to me.. but on a happy dyno who knows.. BD say they make 400bhp on a 2871.. Dyno Lottery applies __________________ BADGER 5 LTD: PERFORMANCE TUNING RACE PROVEN PRODUCTS & HONEST ADVICE: Contact:07976 800775, 01453 827936,Fax-0870 0561360 Bespoke Big Turbo conversions,DevilsOwn WMI,Forge,Ferodo,AP Racing Brakes,Custom Code,REVO,H&R,Eibach,KW,Koni,Milltek,Jetex,Vibratechnik,Compmotive,DTA,Jenvey,Brembo brake kits,EBC,Koni,Neuspeed, and much much more... http://www.badger-5.com email me at:bill@badger5.co.uk

11-02-2010, 03:08	#9
sssstew Editing your spelling Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sunny Side Up Posts: 6,040	link and shame.... __________________

09-02-2010, 23:58	#2
WeeJase pert Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 10,011	why did they not answer in English? What is BPH?

10-02-2010, 08:37	#5
Mook Full Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: South Coast Posts: 69	The power of the interweb is great. The guy seems to be talking out of his arse...

10-02-2010, 19:09	#8
DaveV6 Full Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 165	total crock, i found a vid on youtube of an engine company who tune the vag 1.8t engine for f2 cars and they were running 450 bhp. Dave

11-02-2010, 08:21	#10
ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: glos.uk Posts: 25,225	Mounttune make the F2 engines __________________ BADGER 5 LTD: PERFORMANCE TUNING RACE PROVEN PRODUCTS & HONEST ADVICE: Contact:07976 800775, 01453 827936,Fax-0870 0561360 Bespoke Big Turbo conversions,DevilsOwn WMI,Forge,Ferodo,AP Racing Brakes,Custom Code,REVO,H&R,Eibach,KW,Koni,Milltek,Jetex,Vibratechnik,Compmotive,DTA,Jenvey,Brembo brake kits,EBC,Koni,Neuspeed, and much much more... http://www.badger-5.com email me at:bill@badger5.co.uk

11-02-2010, 10:05	#11
Backdraft Motorsport Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 632	Ran our TT in the Britcar 24 hour! It did get a little warm when the headgasket blew after 15 hours, but the engine was getting on a bit anyway. __________________ Phone: 01908 821216 Fax: 01908 821217 Email: alex@backdraftmotorsport.com

11-02-2010, 10:57	#13
Jonny95 SXE The Irish Contender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	i didnt do it! __________________ 0 - Home in 11 seconds. 8v Cupra Sport eibach -40mm, Supersprint, chipped, Piper X Viper '01 Cupra 20VT GT2871R!!!PICS HERE

11-02-2010, 11:03	#14
ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: glos.uk Posts: 25,225	he comes up with no substantiated evidence at all maybe a personal on off experience has skewed his thinking - __________________ BADGER 5 LTD: PERFORMANCE TUNING RACE PROVEN PRODUCTS & HONEST ADVICE: Contact:07976 800775, 01453 827936,Fax-0870 0561360 Bespoke Big Turbo conversions,DevilsOwn WMI,Forge,Ferodo,AP Racing Brakes,Custom Code,REVO,H&R,Eibach,KW,Koni,Milltek,Jetex,Vibratechnik,Compmotive,DTA,Jenvey,Brembo brake kits,EBC,Koni,Neuspeed, and much much more... http://www.badger-5.com email me at:bill@badger5.co.uk

11-02-2010, 13:48	#16
Wilko Badge snob Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: As far away from JBS as possible Posts: 947	Well to add fuel to the fire, I had a conversation a couple of years ago with an engineer who did some development work on the heads for the palmer sport cars for audi. He mentioned that they modified later TT 225 heads to get better cooling, as they were having issues with the exhaust valves on the middle 2 cylinders Proper motorsport though, not people with tuned cars doing trackdays. Know lots of people (below 400hp) who've had exhaust valve problems on 1.8T's in non motorsport situations. __________________ 2002 2.0T, REVO BT,GT3076, 395g/s, FD. 2002 180 Tdi REVO. 2007 330D touring Last edited by Fl@pper; 11-02-2010 at 17:10.

11-02-2010, 21:53	#18
ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: glos.uk Posts: 25,225	more to the cooling than just power level xxx being quoted... turbo, manifold, egts seen from that config etc... FPA cars running smaller turbos for example compared with larger installs. not a direct comparison to me.. eg a k04 working hard produces a lot more thermal stress than a bigger turbo and manifold like gt30 for example.. gt30 producing a lot more "power" as a headline, but a lot easier thermally.. we all know how hot k04's run when cranked up.. to 280bhp or more, but a gt30 is barely moving for these total airflows and is not generating anywhere near as much heat from its manifold/turbo setup __________________ BADGER 5 LTD: PERFORMANCE TUNING RACE PROVEN PRODUCTS & HONEST ADVICE: Contact:07976 800775, 01453 827936,Fax-0870 0561360 Bespoke Big Turbo conversions,DevilsOwn WMI,Forge,Ferodo,AP Racing Brakes,Custom Code,REVO,H&R,Eibach,KW,Koni,Milltek,Jetex,Vibratechnik,Compmotive,DTA,Jenvey,Brembo brake kits,EBC,Koni,Neuspeed, and much much more... http://www.badger-5.com email me at:bill@badger5.co.uk

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