New Clutch Sooner than i thought

[Leon2012]

Leon2012 wrote

I know it's expensive, but you've got to accept two things when you buy a PD150, that
A) the cam is probably going to fail and cost you over a grand, and
B) the clutch is probably going to fail if you remap it, again costing upto and over another grand.​

I've got to dispute A) above. There are many PD150 owners on the forum who have never had any problems with their cam. The evidence I found when researching before my recent purchase was that cam failures were almost all on earlier models, and that in every case they were associated with using the wrong oil, not 505.01 compliant, or that the maintenance schedule was missing and the type of oil used could not be checked.

The rumours of a batch of poorly hardened cams causing regular failures in early PD150's (or is it PD130's? two versions of the myth exist) can't be confirmed. There's no evidence that ties any failures together by build dates or locations or batch numbers.

So your best, indeed only, form of insurance when buying a PD engined Mk.1 Leon/Mk.2 Toledo is to have a full service history with stamps from reliable dealers or specialist 3rd parties. Even this isn't infallible, as evidence has been found in the US of some dealers not being aware of or not taking seriously the requirement to use 505.01 oil.

Hi Muttley,

I was recently looking into it and found this post by MJ at Volksmaster Oldham, which is what made me think it's a random problem and you need to budget for it:

"Its totally random and isnt really a common problem (no so common you see it every week but i've done a handful this year)

every 1.9 tdi pd engine uses exactly the same type of cam

100 ATD (mk4 golfs, leons, polos, fabias, ibizas)
105 BKC/BXE (mk5 golfs, A3s, mk2 Leons, alteas)
115 AJM/AUY (mk4 golf, galaxy, sharan, alhambra)
130 ASZ/BLT (ibiza, fabia, leon, mk4 golf, alhambra, sharan)
150 ARL (mk4 golf, leon)
160 BPX (ibiza)

the same profile - no difference.

Mainly comes to life around 125k+ and begins with a misfire or loud banging which is transferred back through the inlet and if im honest its the followers that fail more often than the cam itself."

From the thread: Best TDI Engine?

 

[Muttley]

MJ is a solid source of real information, as he deals with real cars coming in to his business for real problems to be fixed. He does say it isn't a common problem, and at a handful a year it's not a certainty for any PD purchaser. I think it's too much like scaremongering to recommend that every second-hand PD purchaser should budget for a new cam, but it is certainly an issue we need to be aware of.

If this occurs across all the PD engines, then it weakens the "batch of bad cams" argument. I'm still of the opinion that these failures are down to poor choice of oil at some stage in the engine's life.

 

[Leon2012]

Well Muttley, I'm just saying it's a known issue, and that if you were looking to buy a PD with these cams, then not budgeting for it and having an expensive £1000+ repair bill might be too much for some people, so it's better to account for it beforehand.

If you were sailing out to sea and there might be a chance of the ship leaking half way out in the ocean, and it was a known fault with these ships, then wouldn't you account for it before you left and take a repair kit, or would you just go and think "it'll be ok.." .... I know which I'd choose

 

[towcester vag]

cams arent that much of a problem
ive worked for vw/audi for 30 yrs and have only had to replace about 6 cams
1x 2.5 v6 tdi due to wear
2x 1.9 pd worn buckets both 130 bhp
2x 2.5 inline tdi due to exhauster pump seizing
1x 1.6 tdi lack of oil

 

[BUBBA808]

i got a valeo SMF from my local garage for £250 and it is so much responsive than the DMF which was on the car before, as for noise what are you going on about? Vibrations is the normal complaint but i have no issues with mine apart from slow crawling as the clutch is more binary now (either power on or off)

 

[agilitymad]

i got a valeo SMF from my local garage for £250 and it is so much responsive than the DMF which was on the car before, as for noise what are you going on about? Vibrations is the normal complaint but i have no issues with mine apart from slow crawling as the clutch is more binary now (either power on or off)

I agree totally with you about no vibration and no noise, but in all the vehicles with the conversion that I have driven, I've found no sign of the clutches being either engaged or disengaged. I regularly drive a 1,9TDI Octavia with the conversion, and it's a lovely, lovely smooth and progressive clutch to use,probably one of the best I've ever driven.

Kim

 

[Leon2012]

Caveat emptor!

Be wary about fitting a Valeo SMF clutch: they are only rated to 260-280 ft/lbs of torque (that's the same or less than a standard OEM LUK DMF), and they have been known to fail.

This person on tdiclub.com fitted one and experienced a 'catastrophic failure' (his words, not mine) in a totally standard & unmodified vehicle - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=341888

Pics are including in the thread, along with this one of cracks in the disc:

In another thread they fitted a Valeo SMF and it failed after only a few thousand miles: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=342111

...guess what they replaced it with.....a Southbend!


Also, it can chatter loudly - some people experience it and some don't, but I'd hate to have it:

my sister has a valeo smf in a touaran pd 130. the chatter is fairly loud at idle, ruins the car imo!

http://vagdrivers.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61485


All in all, I can't see the point of fitting one if you've already got a LUK DMF - you get the same clamping force, less reliablility and the possibility of loud annoying chatter.

Btw, the Americans above didn't have LUK DMFs fitted, as they're not fitted as standard in the US, which is why they fitted the Valeo SMFs.

 

[Leon2012]

There is one more thing about Valeo SMFs!

If the disc goes, it is not available seperately. You'll have to buy a whole new clutch kit.

the valeo kit uses a valeo flywheel, pressure place, and disk. You can NOT mix and match with sachs parts as far as I know.

This along with sub par holding power is why I tell people to steer clear of the valeo kit.

http://65.110.12.166/showthread.php?t=341638

 

[agilitymad]

In fairness, anything can fail. I personally know a taxi driver who drives a 1.9PD TDI 105 Octavia, who had a Valeo SMF kit fitted after 2 DMF failures within 30k miles. He's now done over 110k miles on the SMF Valeo kit with no problems whatsoever.

What it doesn't say in the bold title of the thread linked by the above is that the failure described above is that the failure happened at 60kmiles -- years of normal driving. It's not as if it was a massively premature failure of the parts.

 

[agilitymad]

There is one more thing about Valeo SMFs!

If the disc goes, it is not available seperately. You'll have to buy a whole new clutch kit.



http://65.110.12.166/showthread.php?t=341638

But if the gearbox has to come out to change a clutch disc,is it really cost effective not to change the complete clutch unit? If my clutch went, and was told it was only the clutch disc at fault, I would want a complete clutch fitted.
I would hate to replace just the disc, to find the release bearing or anything else fails later, needing another removal of the gearbox.

 

[Leon2012]

@agility, I don't get why you would install a Valeo SMF if it can fail within a few thousand miles (see second link), have the possibility loud chatter ruining the car, it not being any improvement over the DMF in terms of holding power - both at around 270 ft/lbs, and I'd say the LUK is slightly higher rated in fact, because some people say the LUK can hold 300 ft/lbs, but I've never seen that said about the Valeo.

Just because you have some anecdotal evidence of a few people who have not had problems, it doesn't mean that they drove the car hard or tested their clutch at all, or maybe they were lucky, whereas I have shown proof that they can fail prematurely.

Btw, a clutch should not fail so badly after 60K miles - that's just 3-4 years in diesel driving years for most people, and there are several other reasons why it failed, not just cracks in the disc....especially on a bone stock vehicle......how many LUK DMFs fail in multiple ways after a few years?....I've never heard of any.....

Overall, based on the information and evidence available, it's a bad recommendation to suggest people get a Valeo SMF, as there's nothing about them which can be argued that is better than the standard LUK clutch....in fact they're a lot worse in many ways...

 

[Leon2012]

But if the gearbox has to come out to change a clutch disc,is it really cost effective not to change the complete clutch unit? If my clutch went, and was told it was only the clutch disc at fault, I would want a complete clutch fitted.
I would hate to replace just the disc, to find the release bearing or anything else fails later, needing another removal of the gearbox.

Most of the people on TDIclub do the work themselves, so they don't worry about labour costs, as it's a labour of love/a hobby for them.

 

[Leon2012]

In fairness, anything can fail.

Ok, I've documented cases of premature failure of the Valeo SMF which you're recommending, maybe you can show some cases of the LUK or Southbend failing prematurely/without good cause??.....no I thought not....

 

[agilitymad]

@agility, I don't get why you would install a Valeo SMF if it can fail within a few thousand miles (see second link), have the possibility loud chatter ruining the car, it not being any improvement over the DMF in terms of holding power - both at around 270 ft/lbs, and I'd say the LUK is slightly higher rated in fact, because some people say the LUK can hold 300 ft/lbs, but I've never seen that said about the Valeo.

Just because you have some anecdotal evidence of a few people who have not had problems, it doesn't mean that they drove the car hard or tested their clutch at all, or maybe they were lucky, whereas I have shown proof that they can fail prematurely.

Btw, a clutch should not fail so badly after 60K miles - that's just 3-4 years in diesel driving years for most people, and there are several other reasons why it failed, not just cracks in the disc....especially on a bone stock vehicle......how many LUK DMFs fail in multiple ways after a few years?....I've never heard of any.....

Overall, based on the information and evidence available, it's a bad recommendation to suggest people get a Valeo SMF, as there's nothing about them which can be argued that is better than the standard LUK clutch....in fact they're a lot worse in many ways...

So that's why Skoda main agents are so very aware of the problems of the original DMF's failing at ridiculously low mileages in cars that have not been modified in any way, and offering SMF conversions under Skoda good will warranty claims, even after the warranties have expired...........
As far as the possibility of a SMF conversion failing early, there's a far higher chance that a DMF replaced with another DMF will fail again

Look at any of the VAG forums, and they are full of stories of failed or failing DMFs, and similarly full of nothing but praise for SMF conversions

 

[Leon2012]

Excellent TDI clutch link/info: it explains everything about all the different types, and lists the Valeo SMF as the weakest clutch of all at only 230 ft/lbs, whereas they list the OEM LUK as 300 ft/lbs:

http://www.tdiblog.com/tdi-do-it-yourself/tdi-clutches-dual-mass-single-mass-everything-in-between/

e.g.:

SMF setups do have downsides, however. First, many owners comment on the “rattle” a SMF setup in a TDI makes at idle when in neutral with the clutch engaged. Although this sound is not very loud (you’ll have to have a window down and all accessories off in the car to hear it clearly), some drivers don’t like it. Experts say the noise is actually the output shaft of the transmission rattling, a vibration dampened by the stock DMF. It does no harm. The rattle is louder with lightened flywheels.

Second, the stock DMF does dampen some harmonics caused by the TDI, and owners with a single-mass setup do comment that they can hear noise and vibration at different engine speeds not present with the DMF. This is very minor, however, and not noticed by most drivers.

For these reasons some owners wish to keep the smooth engagement and feel of the dual mass over the simpler single mass design, and upgraded clutch kits for dual-mass flywheels are available.

 

[Leon2012]

So that's why Skoda main agents are so very aware of the problems of the original DMF's failing at ridiculously low mileages in cars that have not been modified in any way, and offering SMF conversions under Skoda good will warranty claims, even after the warranties have expired...........
As far as the possibility of a SMF conversion failing early, there's a far higher chance that a DMF replaced with another DMF will fail again

Look at any of the VAG forums, and they are full of stories of failed or failing DMFs, and similarly full of nothing but praise for SMF conversions

I'm not talking DMF vs SMF, I'm saying that Valeo SMF are not good and you recommended a poor product.

Although for pedal feel and chatter-free performance, most people would prefer a DMF.

The only 'silent' SMF is a Southbend.

The DMFs which failed on the Skodas were probably Sachs which are rated at 250 ft/lbs and known to fail.

 

[agilitymad]

I'm not getting into a slanging match about this, all I've commented on is based on the fact that I've driven a few vehicles with the Valeo conversion, one with way over 100k miles since the job was done, and personally haven't found any issues whatever. And not heard anyone else complain about them either.

It is worth noting that none of the vehicles I'm talking about are driven for performance. All are bog standard road cars, being driven normally. Start tuning to give more power or torque and obviously you're going to need a suitable clutch to handle the extra. The vast majority of folk just want a cost-effective way of solving a known issue with the standard DMF.

 

[Leon2012]

I'm not getting into a slanging match about this, all I've commented on is based on the fact that I've driven a few vehicles with the Valeo conversion, one with way over 100k miles since the job was done, and personally haven't found any issues whatever. And not heard anyone else complain about them either.

It is worth noting that none of the vehicles I'm talking about are driven for performance. All are bog standard road cars, being driven normally. Start tuning to give more power or torque and obviously you're going to need a suitable clutch to handle the extra. The vast majority of folk just want a cost-effective way of solving a known issue with the standard DMF.

You don't have an argument so there is no debate agility, you've got nothing apart from a few people you know being ok with them.

You might not have heard any bad reports about them, but you probably don't get around enough.

I've read on TDIclub about them failing, as the Americans have Sachs as standard and in Europe we have LUK more often, so have provided links, analysis and photos of failures...whereas you have provided nothing in terms of solid evidence.

The catastrophic failure was on a standard vehicle - maybe you missed the fact that I pointed this out several times, to highlight the fact that it doesn't just happen to modified cars.

TDIblog is even rating them at 230 ft/lbs!!


You cite DMF problems, but is that LUK or Sachs?

It makes a big difference, as the LUKs are known to be about 50 ft/lbs stronger than the Sachs, and LUK have a good reputation for strength and reliability with these clutches.

 

[BUBBA808]

hahaha this thread has gone very amusing!!

 

[Leon2012]

Amusing as it might be Bubba, I want to make sure that people get the right information and don't end up with a clutch which they will have problems with, when it could have been avoided by having the right info in the 1st place.