High Timing pull and rich AFR

POPOV · May 23, 2012

For some time now i have been searching the internet for the cause of my high timing pull and rich AFR.
I noticed some hesitation after a remap in 4th, 5th and 6th gear and checked what was going on with my vag-com.
Asking Seat for help is not worth it as i have no fault codes at all, they are incompetent of trouble shooting a car without a fault code

Car is a Seat Leon Cupra 2008 and hardware specification is as below

Stage 2+

3" DP with 100 cell race cat

3" sport cat back exhaust

ITG intake

Autotech HPFP

New BKR7EIX 2667 spark plugs

This are 4:th gear pulls, outside temperature was about 14 C .

Code:

1P0 907 115 C               2.0l R4/4V TFSI     0020                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                           
            Group A:           002                                           Group B:            020                                           Group C:           031           
                        Engine Speed     Engine Load       Injection            Intake Air Mass              Cylinder 1 Ignition          Cylinder 2 Ignition  Cylinder 3 Ignition          Cylinder 4 Ignition                      Lambda Sensor  Lambda Sensor
            TIME                             Timing              TIME     Angle Delay       Angle Delay       Angle Delay       Angle Delay            TIME     Current Value    Specified Value
Marker  STAMP  /min      %         ms        g/s        STAMP  °KW      °KW      °KW      °KW      STAMP             
            0.09      1840     15         0          5.94      0.01      0          0          0          0          0.05      1.99      0.95
            0.24      1840     15         0          6.03      0.15      0          0          0          0          0.2        1.99      0.95
            0.38      1920     57.9      2.55      37.83    0.29      0          0          0          0          0.34      1.99      0.95
            0.52      1880     73.7      3.06      35.11    0.43      0          0          0          -0.8      0.48      0.9        0.95
            0.68      1920     80.5      3.06      37.75    0.57      0          0          0          -0.8      0.62      0.9        0.95
            0.82      1920     86.5      3.06      39.44    0.73      0          0          0          -0.8      0.78      0.94      0.92
            0.96      1960     91         3.06      43.25    0.87      0          0          0          -0.8      0.92      0.96      0.91
            1.1        1960     94.7      3.31      45.44    1.01      -1.5      -3         -3.8      -5.3      1.06      0.95      0.91
            1.26      2000     100.8    3.57      49.75    1.15      -1.5      -3         -3.8      -5.3      1.21      0.96      0.91
            1.4        2080     106       3.83      52.81    1.31      -1.5      -3         -3.8      -5.3      1.35      0.93      0.91
            1.54      2080     110.5    3.83      55.03    1.45      -1.5      -6         -3         -4.5      1.49      0.91      0.91
            1.68      2120     115.8    4.08      60.14    1.59      -0.8      -6         -3         -4.5      1.63      0.9        0.91
            1.84      2200     121.8    4.34      62.86    1.74      -0.8      -6         -3         -4.5      1.79      0.9        0.91
            1.98      2240     127.1    4.34      69.31    1.88      -0.8      -6         -3         -4.5      1.93      0.89      0.91
            2.12      2280     133.1    4.59      73.92    2.02      -0.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.07      0.91      0.91
            2.28      2360     140.6    4.84      80.64    2.16      -0.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.22      0.9        0.9
            2.42      2400     148.9    5.1        88.64    2.33      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.37      0.89      0.9
            2.56      2480     157.1    5.61      95.17    2.47      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.51      0.88      0.87
            2.7        2520     166.9    6.38      101.28  2.61      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.65      0.84      0.82
            2.86      2600     178.2    7.14      111.69  2.75      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.81      0.81      0.79
            2.99      2680     189.5    7.65      122.36  2.9        -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      2.95      0.79      0.77
            3.14      2760     191.7    8.16      134.17  3.04      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      3.09      0.77      0.76
            3.28      2800     191.7    8.67      140.31  3.18      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      3.23      0.75      0.76
            3.43      2880     191.7    8.93      142       3.34      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      3.39      0.76      0.75
            3.57      2960     191.7    8.93      145.19  3.48      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      3.53      0.76      0.74
            3.71      3080     191.7    9.18      165.19  3.62      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      3.67      0.77      0.74
            3.87      3160     191.7    9.69      203.06  3.76      -3.8      -6         -3         -4.5      3.81      0.74      0.74
            4.01      3200     191.7    9.69      199.33  3.92      -3.8      -5.3      -3         -4.5      3.96      0.73      0.73
            4.15      3280     191.7    9.44      184.42  4.06      -3.8      -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.1        0.7        0.74
            4.29      3360     191.7    8.93      174.83  4.2        -3.8      -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.24      0.7        0.74
            4.45      3440     191.7    8.67      127.22  4.34      -3.8      -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.4        0.73      0.74
            4.59      3520     191.7    8.42      137.56  4.49      -3.8      -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.54      0.73      0.74
            4.73      3560     191.7    8.16      177       4.63      -3.8      -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.68      0.73      0.74
            4.87      3600     191.7    8.16      182.97  4.77      -3         -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.82      0.73      0.73
            5.03      3720     191.7    8.16      139.11  4.93      -3         -5.3      -2.3      -3.8      4.98      0.74      0.73
            5.17      3800     191.7    8.16      135.42  5.07      -3         -4.5      -1.5      -3         5.12      0.73      0.73
            5.31      3840     191.7    8.16      148.53  5.21      -3         -4.5      -1.5      -3         5.26      0.72      0.74
            5.46      3920     191.7    8.16      195.06  5.35      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         5.4        0.73      0.74
            5.6        4000     191.7    7.91      195.97  5.51      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         5.56      0.73      0.75
            5.74      4040     191.7    8.16      194.81  5.65      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         5.7        0.74      0.75
            5.89      4120     191.7    8.16      185.94  5.79      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         5.84      0.74      0.75
            6.04      4200     191.7    8.16      184.64  5.93      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6          0.74      0.75
            6.18      4360     191.7    8.16      190.81  6.09      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6.14      0.75      0.75
            6.32      4320     191.7    8.42      189.67  6.23      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6.28      0.75      0.74
            6.46      4400     191.7    8.16      195.75  6.37      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6.42      0.74      0.74
            6.62      4520     191.7    8.16      198.97  6.53      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6.57      0.75      0.74
            6.76      4600     191.7    8.42      205.31  6.67      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6.71      0.74      0.74
            6.9        4640     191.7    8.42      208.44  6.81      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         6.86      0.73      0.74
            7.06      4720     191.7    8.42      209.22  6.95      -2.3      -4.5      -1.5      -3         7          0.73      0.74
            7.2        4800     191.7    8.16      211.56  7.1        0          -0.8      0          0          7.15      0.73      0.75
            7.34      4880     191.7    7.91      212.78  7.24      0          -0.8      0          0          7.29      0.74      0.77
            7.48      4920     191.7    7.91      212.81  7.38      0          -0.8      0          0          7.43      0.75      0.77
            7.63      5000     191.7    7.91      216.11  7.52      0          -0.8      0          0          7.59      0.77      0.77
            7.78      5080     191.7    7.91      220.47  7.68      0          -0.8      0          0          7.73      0.77      0.77
            7.92      5120     191.7    7.91      223.58  7.82      0          -0.8      0          0          7.87      0.77      0.77
            8.06      5200     191.7    7.91      224.47  7.96      0          0          0          0          8.01      0.78      0.77
            8.21      5280     191.7    7.91      223.03  8.12      0          0          0          0          8.17      0.78      0.77
            8.36      5360     191.7    7.91      223.92  8.26      0          0          0          0          8.31      0.78      0.77
            8.49      5400     191.7    7.91      226.92  8.4        0          0          0          0          8.45      0.77      0.77
            8.65      5480     191.7    8.16      230.03  8.54      0          0          0          0          8.59      0.78      0.77
            8.79      5560     191.7    8.42      233.22  8.7        0          0          0          0          8.75      0.78      0.79
            8.93      5600     191.7    8.42      234.72  8.84      0          0          0          0          8.88      0.78      0.78
            9.07      5680     191.7    8.67      238.22  8.98      0          0          0          0          9.02      0.78      0.78
            9.23      5760     191.7    8.67      239.67  9.12      0          0          0          0          9.18      0.78      0.78
            9.37      5800     191.7    8.93      242.03  9.28      0          0          0          0          9.33      0.78      0.78
            9.51      5880     191.7    9.18      246.33  9.42      0          0          0          0          9.47      0.79      0.78
            9.66      5920     191.7    9.18      244.19  9.56      0          0          0          0          9.61      0.78      0.78
            9.81      6000     191.7    9.44      252.31  9.72      0          0          0          0          9.76      0.78      0.78
            9.95      6040     191.7    9.44      252.69  9.86      0          0          0          0          9.91      0.78      0.78
            10.1      6120     191.7    9.44      251.22  10         0          0          0          0          10.06    0.78      0.78
            10.27    6160     191.7    9.69      253.03  10.15    0          0          0          0          10.22    0.78      0.78
            10.42    6240     191.7    9.44      253.75  10.32    0          0          0          0          10.37    0.79      0.78
            10.56    6280     191.7    9.44      253.03  10.46    0          0          0          0          10.51    0.8        0.78
            10.72    6360     191.7    9.44      257.36  10.61    0          0          0          0          10.66    0.79      0.78
            10.87    6400     191.7    9.44      251.58  10.77    0          0          0          0          10.82    0.8        0.78
            11.02    6440     191.7    9.44      254.28  10.92    0          0          0          0          10.97    0.8        0.78

POPOV · May 23, 2012

Code:

1P0 907 115 C               2.0l R4/4V TFSI     0020                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                       
            Group A:           115                                           Group B:            112                                           Group C:           230                       
                        Engine Speed     Engine Load       Boost Pressure   Boost Pressure               Exhaust Temp.   Enrichment Factor            Exhaust Temp.   Median              Rail Pressure     Rail Pressure     Rail Pressure
            TIME                             (specified)         (actual) TIME     Bank 1   Sensor Bank 1    Projection          Exhaust Temp.            TIME     (specified)         (actual) Difference
Marker  STAMP  /min      %         mbar     mbar     STAMP              %         °C         °C         STAMP  bar       bar       bar
            0.1        1840     15         270       1020     0.01                  0          684       684       0.05      50         49.74    0.25
            0.25      1840     15         370       1020     0.14                  0          684       684       0.21      50         50.2      -0.21
            0.39      1840     22.6      500       1010     0.3                    0          684       684       0.35      54.61    51.51    3.1
            0.53      1840     28.6      520       1020     0.44                  0          684       684       0.49      61.25    62.1      -0.85
            0.67      1840     31.6      1750     1010     0.58                  0          684       684       0.63      66.12    65.32    0.8
            0.83      1840     68.4      1690     1010     0.74                  0          684       684       0.78      79.12    82.21    -3.09
            0.97      1880     77.4      1640     1030     0.88                  0          684       684       0.92      89.56    93.01    -3.45
            1.11      1920     81.2      1650     1070     1.02                  0          696       696       1.06      99.01    99.36    -0.35
            1.27      1960     85.7      1680     1120     1.16                  0          702       702       1.2        104.27  104.69  -0.42
            1.41      2000     90.2      1710     1170     1.32                  0          708       708       1.36      107.41  109.95  -2.55
            1.55      2040     95.5      1780     1230     1.46                  0          708       708       1.5        109.35  114.31  -4.96
            1.69      2080     100       1870     1290     1.6                    0          714       714       1.64      111.12  114.16  -3.04
            1.85      2120     105.3    1950     1350     1.74                  0          726       726       1.8        113.1    115.06  -1.96
            1.99      2160     110.5    2020     1420     1.89                  0          744       744       1.94      114.85  115.73  -0.88
            2.13      2240     115.8    2090     1480     2.03                  0          744       744       2.08      116.69  119.77  -3.08
            2.27      2280     122.6    2130     1550     2.17                  0          756       756       2.22      118.63  120.46  -1.83
            2.42      2360     129.3    2170     1640     2.33                  0          774       774       2.38      120.65  122.09  -1.45
            2.56      2400     136.1    2190     1720     2.47                  0          774       774       2.52      122.69  124.36  -1.68
            2.7        2440     144.4    2230     1830     2.61                  0          792       792       2.66      125       123.34  1.66
            2.86      2520     153.4    2200     1950     2.75                  0          810       810       2.8        127.19  125.43  1.75
            3          2600     163.2    2190     2060     2.91                  0          822       822       2.95      128.78  126.21  2.57
            3.14      2640     174.4    2210     2190     3.05                  0          822       822       3.09      129.41  127.34  2.07
            3.29      2720     185       2230     2320     3.19                  0          822       822       3.24      129.46  126.76  2.69
            3.44      2800     191.7    2250     2460     3.33                  0          822       822       3.4        129.46  126.8    2.65
            3.58      2880     191.7    2270     2600     3.49                  0          822       822       3.54      129.46  126.46  3
            3.72      2960     191.7    2280     2620     3.63                  0          828       828       3.68      129.46  126.17  3.29
            3.86      3040     191.7    2300     2700     3.77                  0          840       840       3.82      129.46  127.8    1.66
            4.02      3120     191.7    2310     2700     3.93                  0          852       852       3.97      129.46  126.8    2.65
            4.16      3200     191.7    2320     2620     4.07                  0          852       852       4.11      129.46  125.76  3.7
            4.3        3280     191.7    2320     2520     4.21                  0          864       864       4.25      129.46  126.61  2.84
            4.46      3360     191.7    2340     2390     4.35                  0          870       870       4.39      129.46  127.54  1.92
            4.6        3440     191.7    2350     2330     4.5                    0          876       876       4.55      129.46  128.48  0.97
            4.74      3480     191.7    2380     2300     4.64                  0          876       876       4.69      129.46  128.9    0.56
            4.88      3560     191.7    2390     2290     4.78                  0          876       876       4.83      129.46  128.71  0.74
            5.03      3640     191.7    2420     2320     4.92                  0          870       870       4.99      129.46  127.87  1.58
            5.17      3680     191.7    2420     2340     5.08                  0          870       870       5.13      129.46  128.03  1.42
            5.31      3760     191.7    2440     2320     5.22                  0          870       870       5.27      129.46  126.93  2.52
            5.46      3840     191.7    2440     2330     5.36                  0          870       870       5.41      129.46  129.87  -0.42
            5.61      3920     191.7    2460     2400     5.52                  0          876       876       5.57      129.46  128.71  0.74
            5.75      4000     191.7    2470     2450     5.66                  0          876       876       5.7        129.46  128.85  0.6
            5.89      4080     191.7    2470     2450     5.8                    0          882       882       5.84      129.46  129.87  -0.42
            6.05      4160     191.7    2500     2460     5.94                  0          894       894       5.99      129.46  127.02  2.43
            6.19      4240     191.7    2510     2490     6.1                    0          894       894       6.15      129.46  129.61  -0.16
            6.33      4280     191.7    2520     2480     6.24                  0          900       900       6.28      129.46  127.92  1.53
            6.47      4400     191.7    2530     2490     6.38                  0          906       906       6.42      129.46  130.51  -1.06
            6.63      4440     191.7    2530     2480     6.52                  0          912       912       6.58      129.46  129.38  0.07
            6.77      4520     191.7    2540     2470     6.67                  0          912       912       6.72      129.46  130.44  -0.99
            6.91      4600     191.7    2540     2470     6.82                  0          906       906       6.86      129.46  131.15  -1.7
            7.05      4640     191.7    2540     2490     6.95                  0          912       912       7          129.46  130.47  -1.01
            7.2        4720     191.7    2530     2500     7.11                  0          912       912       7.16      129.46  128.59  0.86
            7.35      4800     191.7    2530     2530     7.25                  0          912       912       7.3        129.46  129.04  0.42
            7.49      4840     191.7    2540     2530     7.39                  0          918       918       7.44      129.46  125.88  3.57
            7.64      4960     191.7    2540     2540     7.53                  0          918       918       7.58      129.46  123.31  6.14
            7.78      5040     191.7    2530     2530     7.69                  0          924       924       7.73      129.46  129.88  -0.42
            7.92      5080     191.7    2530     2530     7.83                  0          930       930       7.88      129.46  129.04  0.42
            8.06      5120     191.7    2530     2520     7.97                  0          930       930       8.02      129.46  128.76  0.69
            8.22      5240     191.7    2530     2500     8.11                  0          942       942       8.17      129.46  130.56  -1.11
            8.36      5280     191.7    2530     2490     8.27                  0          948       948       8.32      129.46  128.21  1.24
            8.5        5320     191.7    2530     2490     8.41                  0          948       948       8.45      129.46  130.67  -1.21
            8.65      5400     191.7    2530     2510     8.55                  0          960       960       8.6        129.46  131.67  -2.22
            8.8        5480     191.7    2520     2520     8.7                    0          972       972       8.75      129.46  132.98  -3.53
            8.95      5520     191.7    2520     2520     8.85                  0          972       972       8.89      129.46  129.77  -0.31
            9.08      5600     191.7    2520     2500     8.99                  0          966       966       9.04      129.46  130.95  -1.5
            9.24      5680     191.7    2520     2480     9.13                  0          966       966       9.18      129.46  130.62  -1.17
            9.38      5720     191.7    2520     2480     9.28                  0          972       972       9.33      129.46  129.21  0.25
            9.52      5760     191.7    2520     2480     9.42                  0          978       978       9.47      129.46  132.65  -3.2
            9.66      5840     191.7    2520     2480     9.56                  0          978       978       9.61      129.46  130.33  -0.88
            9.82      5920     191.7    2490     2490     9.71                  0          984       984       9.77      129.46  132.34  -2.89
            9.96      6000     191.7    2440     2500     9.87                  0          990       990       9.91      129.46  131.11  -1.66
            10.12    6040     191.7    2410     2500     10.01                0          990       990       10.07    129.46  131.78  -2.32
            10.27    6080     191.7    2370     2460     10.16                0          999       999       10.21    129.46  132.13  -2.67
            10.42    6160     191.7    2320     2410     10.32                0          999       999       10.37    129.46  126.31  3.15
            10.56    6200     191.7    2260     2340     10.47                0          999       999       10.52    129.46  129.95  -0.5
            10.71    6240     191.7    2200     2270     10.61                0          999       999       10.66    129.46  129.17  0.28
            10.87    6320     186.5    2170     2180     10.77                0          999       999       10.82    129.46  130       -0.54
            11.02    6320     180.5    2150     2130     10.92                0          984       984       10.97    129.46  132.25  -2.8
            11.16    6360     175.9    2160     2090     11.06                0          972       972       11.11    129.56  128.2    1.36
            11.32    6480     172.2    2170     2060     11.21                0          972       972       11.27    129.79  129.12  0.66

DanGB · May 23, 2012

Maybe take a look at your partial fuel trims - block 032

POPOV · May 23, 2012

DanGB said:
Maybe take a look at your partial fuel trims - block 032

Logged channel 32 after resetting the adaptation and driving more than 20 minutes. Idle was showing -2,4% and the partial 0,4% all in the recommended limits.

POPOV · May 24, 2012

Driving the car normally keeps both AFR and timing pull at normal levels, issue is only at full throttle.

Poverty · May 24, 2012

Remove the Intake and retest.

POPOV · May 24, 2012

Poverty said:
Remove the Intake and retest.

Have been thinking about doing that. What is your thought behind it?
Issue is my original engine top is not available anymore, maybe just try without intake piping and filter. Just keep the ITG maf housing, will i damage the engine or turbo running without?

Poverty · May 24, 2012

Some cars don't seem to like intakes for some reason.
My friend fitted a ITG to his s3 and it ran like ****, never ever seen a 2.0tfsi run so badly under load, and it was a brand new car. Never got to the bottom of it he just sold the car.

Have you tried running with the MAF disconnected?

POPOV · May 24, 2012

Yes, had the MAF unplugged and timing pull got even worse.
Looking at my maf values they look good, so maf should be good.
From my logs i can detect that the car goes into EGT protective mode pushing the AFR to rich levels. But as the timing pull also goes bad it must be that input to the engine before the cylinders is messing up things.
Could be Intake as you say or maybe maf sensor.
If not i am thinking about coilpacks and injectors .

jc_boc · May 24, 2012

pressure valve? A few guys have upgraded to the RS4 one.....

POPOV · May 24, 2012

jc_boc said:
pressure valve? A few guys have upgraded to the RS4 one.....

I have logged the requested and actual fuel rail pressure and the difference is all good. No more than 3 mbar difference and at full throttle up on actual 130 mbar .
Check post 2 above for the logs on fuel rail pressure.
Note, that i have the same bad numbers in the stock mode.

POPOV · May 24, 2012

Thought about the Intake temp, maybe as i have closed down the OEM air intake path from the front of the grill i do not get enough cold air into the engine bay. But logging the manifold intake temp shows me usually no more than 35C at full throttle according to my memory. Could extreme intake heat cause this behavior ...
That is maybe why i have so high EGT .

Al · May 24, 2012

What Revo settings are you using to get these numbers?

POPOV · May 24, 2012

Above numbers are done with settings B8 T5 F5 .

I was running F9 before but after a phone call to REVO HQ i was convinced that running F5 would be better .
It did not make the AFR more rich, instead pushed my maf readings up by 10g/s and car feels better but still not good timing numbers and AFR.

Al · May 24, 2012

I didn't see those settings above. What happens if you lower boost?

POPOV · May 24, 2012

Al said:
I didn't see those settings above. What happens if you lower boost?

Same crap =( I have tested with low timing and low boost as well. Same issue in stock mode.

Between changes of settings i always do the basic settings reset of channel 60.

cheungy · May 24, 2012

POPOV said:
Above numbers are done with settings B8 T5 F5 .

I was running F9 before but after a phone call to REVO HQ i was convinced that running F5 would be better .
It did not make the AFR more rich, instead pushed my maf readings up by 10g/s and car feels better but still not good timing numbers and AFR.

I've never fully understood the fuel setting (sorry if this is going off topic)...

When my car was on stage2+ it was on 9 pretty much all the time and right now it is on 6...working okay though.

Poverty · May 24, 2012

You need to remove the ITG and remove Revo file off the ecu and go back to stock and do your testing from there

POPOV · May 25, 2012

Poverty said:
You need to remove the ITG and remove Revo file off the ecu and go back to stock and do your testing from there

Would it not be enough to just use the SPS and run stock mode?
What is the difference between stock mode and removing the Revo file completely?

POPOV · May 25, 2012

Looking at my logs we can see that the EGT protection mode kicks in about 2500 RPM, that is when the ECU will push in more fuel to lower temps avoiding damage to the turbo. I have been notified that the ECU should not start to do this before 900C, on my logs about 2500 rpm i am only on about 800C .

Am i logging wrong group for EGT?
Can other factors activate the EGT protection mode as timing pull?

High Timing pull and rich AFR

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